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#45288 - 12/20/10 04:41 AM Faith - Dirty word or misconception?
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Tonight has been the night of knowledge! I have forged forth through the weary PLAINS of Might is Right and plunged into the "deep" of the ONA. I have purged myself of the "atheistic LeVay" and opened up the booklets FCoS. Raiding the internet and following through on an enlightened journey through Satanism. Gobbling up, so to speak, every speck and leaving no road untraveled. (Okay, I am sure that there a many others to follow.) Throwing concepts against the wall like basketballs and seeing which ones return to me and which ones fall flat against the ground.

It fascinates me the different grounds that are covered by the umbrella term of Satanism. All having their own unique insights and their own flaws. Although all of them overturn the idealism of having flaws. All creating a window for the basic idea that they are right; a likeness in all Satanists. The standing up with a voice, the do-ism attitude and the platitude in which a Satanist clams up with their ego in the forefront. This blatant disregard for all else other than self.

I have searched link by link, book by book and, for technology's sake, pdf br pdf. Satanism can be more as referred as a blank canvas desert in which we hold the paint brushes and declare our rights as our psychodrama sees fit. The ritual basis of Satanism remains an individuals mystic playground and even the atheists can play. Imagine a game with only winners.. we accept the losers as we see fit because the idea of the game is to pick and choose. Can a loser be a winner?

My mind fills with rot of what others follow and preach. Even in my mind I see a never ending list in which I will go down and tick off yes or no. Yes, no, yes, no, no, yes. An evolving perspective of an imagination gone wild. The consequences? There are none because I do not envision any. You are a part of MY world because I see it fit for you to exist in my world. Delusional? Perhaps someone that sees something clearly in the real world would be claimed to be as such for saying "you don't exist just because you say you exist". Imagine, if you will, someone standing right in front of you. Do they exist because they are a physical presence in your field of vision? Or do they exist because you acknowledge that they are in your field of vision?

More abstractly, in internet networking, do the characters that you entertain and converse with offer anything other than plain text to you that prove that you are real? This is even more so put in as a notion with networking systems that come with an "ignore button". Ignore buttons to delete the person from existence. There are chat rooms in which you can also converse with others but unless they get on cam, do they offer you anything other than their text on a screen for you to believe that they are real? Is this just the usage of faith?

I do not remember who said it, I believe it was Jason King, but when you go to a grocery store to buy a can of soup is it not faith that you are employing when you buy it? Not through action, but through the thought that what you are buying is actually soup. I remember hearing this and I double think every time I look at a can of soup, humorously. You believe that there is soup in the can because every time that you have bought that soup, there has been soup. It's a mini trial and error process that we subconsciously use ALL the time. Those who trial faith, whether it's existence or not, have to give that a little thought. Every day you wake up, do your morning routine and head off to work (you, of course, used very generally).. you have certain things that you do that work for you because of this mini trial and error process.

One day, you go into the grocery store and buy a can of soup. When you get home and open the can, you find that it is writhing with mold even though the date is far from it's expiration. What do you do? Obviously throw the soup away. However, how will you look at the next can of soup when you go to buy it? Will you instead opt for spaghetti os? Or, even better, will you decide to override you want for ANYTHING in a can and instead prefer something you can see outright? I, for one, would take the last and probably would not be able to trust anything in can for a LONG time.

I see people that are almost butthurt by the things that they can't see. Allowing words like "faith" or "spirituality" get to them like a knife. The dismissal is not unwarranted for those who hold no need to believe in "shadows on the walls" or the deities above. I do not withhold my beliefs in which I do not believe that there is a physical god or devil. I have never believed in heaven or hell since my own understanding of faith and religion. However, I do think that there is some merit in being able to come to peace with the idealism of "faith". You take steps in "faith" everyday. You go to bed with the idea, the "faith", that you will wake up the next day. You go to work everyday with the "faith" that you will still have it when you get there. Since when did "faith" have to hand in hand with "spirituality"?

Faith seems to get a bad rap these days. The word seems dirty and untouchable by the Satanist. For why I ask? I wake up with the "faith" that: My daughter will be safe and right where I left her before going to bed
My job is still intact when I get there.
My family members stay healthy.
The food I am eating won't kill me.
That I haven't forgotten anything at home before leaving the house.
That I won't die during some part of the day via someone running a red light and my "faith" that the little walking man telling me it's safe to walk is right.

Here we go darlings:

faith (fth)
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.


\:\)
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#45289 - 12/20/10 05:05 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Diavolo Offline
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Faith is an interesting concept.

I think faith only transforms into knowledge through experience even when this doesn't necessarily imply this knowledge being true. All knowledge we have, which is not submitted to experience, is essentially nothing but faith. But mostly this faith is a belief in probabilities. Something is highly likely or unlikely which makes the content of a can of soup predictable.

In the end, faith matters little and it is better to be pragmatic; it's valid when it works.

D.

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#45297 - 12/20/10 10:22 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Draculesti Offline
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I agree with Diavolo, that faith can be an interesting concept. I find it more interesting, however, in that it can be dangerous, as in taking things on faith when one would be better served by doubt.

Take, for instance, your example of having faith that your daughter is still in bed where you left her. Only a fool would take it completely on faith that no one climbed in through her window to steal her away into the night (there are plenty of cases to show that this kind of thing has indeed happened before), so you check in on her periodically. If you took it absolutely on faith that she is still there, you wouldn't give it a second thought.

It seems to me that the essence of Satanism is doubt. Those who walk around in a "faith bubble" are oblivious to how flimsy their shield is against all the bad things that can and do happen. Faith can be a good thing, too, but it must be tempered by reason.
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#45298 - 12/20/10 10:30 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: Draculesti]
Jason King Offline
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The best definition of faith that I've encountered:

faith=believing something you cannot prove.

When I buy a can of soup, I have faith in the producer (e.g. Campbells) that the label corresponds to the contents.

The interesting part comes when we truly consider how much we accept without hard and fast proof. It's a lot more than most people think . . .

JK
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#45300 - 12/20/10 11:03 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: Jason King]
Diavolo Offline
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The very problem with proof is that essentially it also is belief.

Of course in daily life, it matters little and I'd be a moron to question the reality of a car moving towards me, but fundamentally all proof is based upon a specific perception of reality which might be quite different from what we believe it to be.

D.

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#45301 - 12/20/10 11:48 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: Diavolo]
Jason King Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The very problem with proof is that essentially it also is belief.


Shhhhhhh, don't tell anybody!

LOL, awesome point.

JK
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#45305 - 12/20/10 12:19 PM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: Jason King]
TheInsane Offline
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We went into this discussion when I discussed free will with that rapper Satanist guy (can't remember his name). He claimed he didnt believe or had faith in anything which obviously cant be true for any human being.

There might be a different thing if we talk of "faith in spirits" or a "belief in God".

We have also been dicussing doubt which is a hugely interesting point to me and I have seen both the good things it can bring but also the negatives depending on how afr one takes it. Its the same with some Satanists adversarial natures. ometimes they become adversaries just to oppose. And that way they obviously are controlled jut as much as the people they try to stand up against.

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#45306 - 12/20/10 12:30 PM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
manofsteel Offline
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Loc: Indiana U.S.
All as far as I'm concerned faith is is belief in somethin that isn't proven real. We are real and damn sure I am and my goal is to make sure my family and I get the most out of our time here. Faith I think some people need to make them feel beter and something to believe in. Hey, if that makes them feel better then so be it and I am happy for them. Me, I guess I am too realistc.
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#45307 - 12/20/10 01:19 PM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: OrgasmicKarmatic
More abstractly, in internet networking, do the characters that you entertain and converse with offer anything other than plain text to you that prove that you are real?


This it the Turing Test. Pretty soon you'll not only be unsure if they're real, you'll be unsure if they're people.

 Originally Posted By: OrgasmicKarmatic
[...] when you go to a grocery store to buy a can of soup is it not faith that you are employing when you buy it? Not through action, but through the thought that what you are buying is actually soup. [...] You believe that there is soup in the can because every time that you have bought that soup, there has been soup. It's a mini trial and error process that we subconsciously use ALL the time.


Humans never have perfect knowledge - that's why their brains are essentially pattern-matching devices, rather than strict logic circuits (I have no evidence of that claim, but I do have faith that it's true )

To justify a particular effect as resulting from a particular cause I tend to think of the "amount" of evidence one has as a continuum ranging from "blind faith" (or zero, which is what I usually mean when I use the shorthand "faith") to "almost certain" (which usually means a history of very high correlation).

But I'm one who tries to understand and adapt my mental frameworks to be ever more useful. If one wants to use the term "faith" to be very broad, then of course everything is based on "faith" and all we can do is hope things work out. I prefer to use the term in a more narrow sense, and in your example, I wouldn't say I had faith in the soup - I would say I merely have an expectation of soup.

 Originally Posted By: OrgasmicKarmatic
One day, you go into the grocery store and buy a can of soup. When you get home and open the can, you find that it is writhing with mold even though the date is far from it's expiration. What do you do? Obviously throw the soup away. However, how will you look at the next can of soup when you go to buy it? Will you instead opt for spaghetti os? Or, even better, will you decide to override you want for ANYTHING in a can and instead prefer something you can see outright? I, for one, would take the last and probably would not be able to trust anything in can for a LONG time.

I see people that are almost butthurt by the things that they can't see.


Ah, you should go read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

This example is a midway point between faith and understanding. It's not that people can't see, it's that they won't see. It should be easily understandable that systems are not perfect, and every once in a while you get a faulty product. There is nothing mystical here at all, and no reason to rely on blind faith rather than use your brain.

Your reaction is one of blind faith - you've lost faith in the Soup. Indeed, you've lost faith in all Canned Goods.

Throw the can out and buy another, or return it to the store and consult with the staff. Perhaps it was an isolated incident, or perhaps it works out that manufacturer's processes are not reliable and a lot of cans are bad, in which case it's a better use of your time and energy to switch to another brand or food, but don't allow blind faith to drive you.

One has the opportunity to observe, research, and understand. Some see it as a responsibility ("responsibility to the responsible"?), others as a chore. This is my main issue with conflating blind faith with understanding by using the phrase "faith". It's too easy to create some overly simplistic theory, and contort facts to fit the theory rather than change the theory to fit the facts.
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#45308 - 12/20/10 01:46 PM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: manofsteel]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Draculesti
Take, for instance, your example of having faith that your daughter is still in bed where you left her. Only a fool would take it completely on faith that no one climbed in through her window to steal her away into the night (there are plenty of cases to show that this kind of thing has indeed happened before), so you check in on her periodically. If you took it absolutely on faith that she is still there, you wouldn't give it a second thought.


Good point. Although, once you have gone to bed and are fast asleep, it is with the faith that you've checked the window locks and they stay secure. Or that the locks on your doors are secure. Or even that she stays in the same room as you also reside. It is really up to the trappings of where my daughter lays her head at night. Is the faith that she is going to still be there in the morning when I wake up stronger if she happens to be asleep right next to me? Surely, it is. However, more horrible things have happened to children so what is it exactly that makes me NOT stay up all night wondering if she is still in bed. (Something my mother does constantly, even when I was in my teenage years.) I call it faith.

Imagine how paranoid you would have to be if you constantly had to wander in and out of your child's bedroom at all hours of the night. How would you function in order to be a good parent? There are points in time where we let ourselves forget about what is going on outside our internal worlds. The truth of kidnapping is always out there but we take steps to make sure that it doesn't happen to ours.

What's interesting about this situation is, that doubt plays an excellent role in, at least this particular situation, faith. I doubt the outside world. Anything past my internal world, I cannot fully trust. With this doubt that I hold for a good portion of the outside of my internal world, I take the steps that are needed to protect my daughter from it. Such as the locks on the doors or windows, crossing the street to her school with her or even checking her candy before she eats it from Halloween. Seems to me that doubt is more faith's friend when viewed from that aspect.

Doubt is in the mini trial and error process I wrote about in the OP. Primarily using my daughter for example.. I doubt that if I wake her up 15 minutes before she has to be at school, she will get there in time. Why? She, being my second, can be grouchy and very hard to wake up. The reason I mentioned she is my second child is because that also plays a role in how I can have faith that my 4 year old is going to act much like her older brother when being woken up. Therefore, through my doubt of her getting up with no problem and previous experiences, I can have faith that getting her up sooner than 15 minutes before the school bell rings is a more proper thing to do.

Which brings me to another very good point:

 Originally Posted By: Draculesti
Faith can be a good thing, too, but it must be tempered by reason.


Of course. Why do something without having any reason? In the real world, where real problems abound, we use logic or reason to bat our way through the cornfields of life. We must justify why we have such faiths and consistency often serves as that justification. As with the soup can; "I've bought this soup several times and it has never failed to be soup". In the end, it's consistency of the soup that gives us that faith to pick it up and buy it. It is also the use of logic: "If the can says soup and I've never gotten anything other than soup; it must be soup". So on and so forth.


 Originally Posted By: Jason King
faith=believing something you cannot prove.


Great. I love it. This makes faith not ethereal at all. When religion is forced onto the word faith, little logic and sense is used.

If you cannot see through the blinds of my daughter's windows; you cannot prove that she is actually there. As a kidnapper, even, you take the logical approach with the thought of consistency: "She's always in that room as far as I've observed". The flaw in it may be huge as maybe she is at her grandmother's for the night and gets caught climbing in that window because his target was not there. His logic of her "always" being in that room has misguided his faith and now he's in quite the pickle! Merely an example of how consistency cannot always justify faith.

 Originally Posted By: Jason King
The interesting part comes when we truly consider how much we accept without hard and fast proof. It's a lot more than most people think . . .


This is something I quite agree with. Does this mean our thinking is faulty? Not necessarily. There are many reasons why we could choose to accept things as they are or believe them without needing hard proven evidence.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
...but fundamentally all proof is based upon a specific perception of reality which might be quite different from what we believe it to be.


This is a great observation. Not everyone sees things the same way as the next person and even with our adept senses; they are even prone to mistake.

When I was in grade school as a part of a Halloween party, we were blind folded and told to reach our hands into several bowls of unnamed substances. (Just wanted to point out the faith that we had to have to be able to realize that being blindfolded and putting out hands into bowls that they didn't know what they contained wasn't an attempt on our teachers part to harm us. \:\) ) Back on topic though, some of us guessed that there were certain things were the same but there were a few things that guesses of what it was were either way off or completely different that what the other student perceived it to be.

Does this boil down to personal experience? (IE A person may be able to determine something better because, in this situation, they've touched the unnamed substance before unlike the classmate behind them.)


 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
He claimed he didnt believe or had faith in anything which obviously cant be true for any human being.


This is true but faith is something that is used after one has logically processed the available information. It is employed only after the mini trial and error processes that we go through everyday to shape our own internal world.

 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
There might be a different thing if we talk of "faith in spirits" or a "belief in God".


Also, very true. I think that religion has tainted the word faith making much more stigma than there needs to be. Faith is often placed in the hands of spirituality and the belief in mind numbing religion. As a Satanist, the word faith does not play a role as a religious term or at least it shouldn't. Faith should be something that is used as a tool via our own observations.


 Originally Posted By: TheInsane

We have also been dicussing doubt which is a hugely interesting point to me


I will check your thread out as the relation between faith and doubt has become quite the curious idea for me. I think I would benefit from such a thread. With my readings and such, I haven't had much time though. Thank you for referring to the thread though.

 Originally Posted By: ManofSteel
Faith I think some people need to make them feel beter and something to believe in. Hey, if that makes them feel better then so be it and I am happy for them. Me, I guess I am too realistc.


This is what I mean by the word faith being tainted by church and the drones that continuously use the word faith in the spiritual deity ridden sense. You said that you essentially believe that faith is belief in something you can't see. What I am trying to point out, there are a lot of things out there we can't see but doesn't make them any less real. You cannot physically see me yet here I am typing this response to you on a very real website as a very real person. How can you prove this other than the text that is offered? You cannot. You have never actually seen me, therefore, am I really the same person that you may have conversed with in my other threads or am I someone else? Did someone hack my account? While the obvious answer to this is "no", you are receiving that confirmation from me. AKA the person you cannot see. So, it is with faith that you take into account that I am a real person on this forum and not another taking my place.
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#45310 - 12/20/10 02:14 PM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
This it the Turing Test. Pretty soon you'll not only be unsure if they're real, you'll be unsure if they're people.


Ah, I wouldn't go so far. I actually addressed that somewhat in my previous response post. (Which, unfortunately, I didn't refresh to see anyone else that may have responding while I was typing so I missed yours.) As Satanists, we are the type to question EVERYTHING and even when, after a couple tests, the results are the same; we question it still. Thus my expression of throwing basketballs against the wall in the OP.

The way I addressed it was via checking in on my daughter because of having doubt that she may or may not be there in the morning. There is a certain element to faith and questioning certain faiths that we have that some might turn into paranoia. (IE the example if I spent all night going up and down the stairs checking on my daughter and constantly doubting that I was right; losing sleep and being a less functioning adult due to that doubt. Doubt turning to paranoia. In the form of my mother (also used as an example previously), she checks on the children constantly due to paranoia and not doubt.)

This perfect when describing something healthy as doubt turning into something unhealthy.

 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
To justify a particular effect as resulting from a particular cause I tend to think of the "amount" of evidence one has as a continuum ranging from "blind faith" (or zero, which is what I usually mean when I use the shorthand "faith") to "almost certain" (which usually means a history of very high correlation).


I love how you bring up the broad usage of faith. Of course, this bandwidth, so to speak of faith and it's uses switches within each internal world.

Xtains believe without a doubt that they have felt the presence of christ in their lives; placing their faith in their lord and christ in the polar opposite of absolute certainty where we, as Satanists would place their faith.

The subjectivity of faith, especially in religion is somewhat intriguing because of the different perspectives of those around us. I value my ability to entertain the stories that are told and use it as a learning tool about the religion itself and the person that holds that belief dear to them. Religion is toxic on the language and people but understanding a religion and the people that practice faith through their religion certainly makes for a good project on learning more about the internal human psyche and how it works/ projects itself in such a world.

 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
in your example, I wouldn't say I had faith in the soup - I would say I merely have an expectation of soup.


I will say this..

I, through my own personal experiences in the past, expect that there is soup in that can therefore, I am going to buy that can of soup.

I, through my own personal experiences in the past, hold the faith/belief that there is soup in that can therefore, I am going to buy that can of soup.

 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
Ah, you should go read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.


So much reading! LOL I have heard good things on this book, I will add it to my list of books to read. Thanks for the suggestion. \:\)

 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
There is nothing mystical here at all, and no reason to rely on blind faith rather than use your brain.

Your reaction is one of blind faith - you've lost faith in the Soup. Indeed, you've lost faith in all Canned Goods.


That is what I am trying to drop when it comes to the word faith. The religious aspect to it. Yes, it is broad to do so but if faith's basic definition or understanding = belief in something you cannot prove, then it is safe to assume that outside the religious belief (which has no practical use in Satanism) faith IS said broad term.

 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
It's too easy to create some overly simplistic theory, and contort facts to fit the theory rather than change the theory to fit the facts.


I concur and while I can be accused of doing so with some things.. unless you drop the religious trappings of the word faith, the usage of it will always catch the eye because of the stigma behind it. There are several definitions of the word faith. The one that I quoted here in the OP best fits my idea of the word. Dropping the religious background and tainting makes the word much clearer in use.
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#45312 - 12/20/10 03:06 PM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Haven't read the replies, but the OP fails because it draws on the fallacy of equivocation. A favoured tactic of those that would legitimize faith, equivocation is simply drawing on multiple definitions of the same word, and interchanging them as is convenient.

Trust that an outcome will come about based on sound evidence, ie this action has always yielded this result in the past, (the thousands of cans of soup I have bought have always been soup) is not the same thing as coming to a conclusion that has not shown itself to be reliable. (faith in a deity that has never been observed to exist)

Apples and oranges.

Religious faith, as invoked by believers is antithesis to LHP philosophy because once you can form a belief in one thing without requiring evidence, you can believe ANYTHING based on the same information (none). From here you can fall for about anything.

Faith, in this context, is intellectual suicide.
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#45313 - 12/20/10 03:44 PM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: Dan_Dread]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
Mr. Dread,

I do urge you to read the responses however, I see where you are coming from but still disagree with you. The fact that the word faith has many definitions (in the dictionary, not in other people's heads) DOES in fact mean that I can take what definition I feel fits my idea of faith. Which I did, in the original post. I also urge you to drop the mysticism that comes with the word faith.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Trust that an outcome will come about based on sound evidence


Trial and error, scientific method and observed occurrences, yes. Thus the idea of:

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
(the thousands of cans of soup I have bought have always been soup)


******

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
is not the same thing as coming to a conclusion that has not shown itself to be reliable. (faith in a deity that has never been observed to exist)


No, it's not. However, that opinion changes with every individual you meet. This was also covered in my responses to Autodidact. The broad spectrum of faith = believing something that you cannot prove, is very different for everyone.

It has been suggested on this thread that proof = belief and that faith also = belief. Consistency + Proof = Belief/Faith/Expectation of the same outcome?


 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
but the OP fails because it draws on the fallacy of equivocation. A favoured tactic of those that would legitimize faith


Again, I have to disagree with you. Mainly because the I believe that certain words like "faith" are tainted for others and people avoid them simply because of the symbolism behind them for OTHERS. I am breaking down this tainted word because I believe that the only way that you can get over the stigma of the word is if you really see as to why it's being avoided.

Anton himself said that Satanists avoid using words such as "faith" or "hope". Why? Is it because we are cutting words out and using them the way that christians do? Why do we allow such limitations on our language and how we express ourselves? Should I possess myself to tear out pages of the dictionary that one facet of humanity overuses?

Dan, religion has no place in Satanism. Therefore, it is only logical for me, as a Satanist, to use faith in what I deem to be the RIGHT context. Which is what is posted in the original post.
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#45314 - 12/20/10 04:03 PM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Dan_Dread Offline
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The RIGHT context? The word faith is colloquially defined as 'belief without(or in spite of) evidence'.

Faith as per religious faith and faith as per trust in an outcome are different uses for the same word. Muddling them will get you exactly nowhere, and is a prime example of the logical fallacy of Equivocation. You can disagree all you like, but this isn't a matter of opinion but of fact.

Using the word faith when what you actually mean is trust will only serve to make your written communication even LESS clear than it already is(which is no small feat, no offence). I have to ask, what is it you are trying to accomplish with this? Do you not like to be understood when you post?
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#45315 - 12/20/10 04:06 PM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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The question about faith or knowledge is, fundamentally, a question about truth.

The very problem most people have with truth is that they desire it to be true all the time. They need something to hold on to, a beacon to trust upon. Some find their truth in religion, mysticism or even science. They need something that can solve their answers, a savior that can show them the light, define their direction and provide their ideas. Even amongst many scientific minded, science has become Scientism, elevated to an almost godly status, where, one day, it will provide all the answers to everything, even when science, essentially, provides no answers at all; it only provides data.

What most people forget is that truth is a matter of perspective and while something can be true in one perspective, it doesn't necessarily need to be true in another. When perspectives change, truth changes. As such, truth is not terribly important. What is much more important is what works. We can easily call religious people ignorant, or morons, but what we can't deny is that it works for them. And the moment it stops working, their perspectives will change and they'll discover new truths.

As such, any question or answer about faith, knowledge or truth is dependent upon a specific perspective.

D.

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