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#45494 - 12/23/10 08:06 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Indeed Jake, there is no reason to start assuming things that always worked or happened, will suddenly not work or happen, even when there might be a probability so small we can't even imagine its number.

When I get into an airplane, I trust I will arrive at my destination. I don't need to know all the details about aerodynamics, gravity etc to be rather sure I'll be fine. I trust on the fact that the majority of airplanes arrives at their destination without suddenly falling apart or dropping from the sky. I'm pragmatic about it, I've been flying before and it is enough reason for me to know I'll be fine the next time too. This is true for most of the things I do in real life; from driving a car to buying a can of soup. I trust on past experience even when I do know probabilities can turn against me.

But there are other levels, especially when it comes to knowledge, where this trust is actually a synonym for faith. Take the example of climate science fraud. After the famous hockey stick it became clear climate science wasn't as honest as expected and a lot of data was manipulated and hidden. At the same time, we all had our ideas about climate science, took our position in it and even let it affect our daily lives; mostly through politics or green agendas.

Then it turned out not everything they said was necessarily as it is. We discovered we took much of what was said on trust (faith). Why did we do so? For one because we can't do much else, another because we still seem to be subject to authority.

We can't escape having faith. At times, when you agree with someone, you can't but agree with him knowing what he says is true, even when you are beyond the capacities ever verifying it really is.

D.

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#45504 - 12/23/10 12:32 PM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: Diavolo]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: New York
General reply:

For me one significant difference between religious faith and “scientific faith,” is the delivery of the argument.

If one asks a priest why they should believe in religious faith the answer will often be something like “because it is in the bible,” “Pray on it,” “Open you heart,” “People have believed it for thousands of years and all those people can’t be wrong.

If one asks a scientists why they should believe what the scientists claims, the scientist will often whip out some instruments, gadgets, and tangible things and show you how his experiment works and how he reached the conclusion, and will also likely let you perform the experiment yourself. At that point IF you reach a different conclusion they will not simply tell you that you are wrong, but will consider where you might have made a mistake, re due the experiment and if need be they will adjust their way of thinking when your experiment turns out to have yielded a different result from theirs.

My scientific faith can be easily changed by tangible proof if it is contrary to what I believe to be true. Religious faith is much more difficult to disprove with tangible evidence.

So yes, science and religion are both based on some kind of faith. However, in my opinion there is enough difference between one faith and the other to justify them as being completely separate and different notions.



Edited by Asmedious (12/23/10 12:39 PM)
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#45510 - 12/23/10 01:19 PM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: Diavolo]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2572
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Indeed Jake, there is no reason to start assuming things that always worked or happened, will suddenly not work or happen, even when there might be a probability so small we can't even imagine its number.

When I get into an airplane, I trust I will arrive at my destination.

That's the spirit!

_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#45551 - 12/24/10 12:11 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: Diavolo]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
I have to agree with you that that there is alwaus hope in much that we do. As a satanis I try to think things through for the most part. There are always times in life when s lot of us would wish for someone of something to be watching over us. I believe it is only natural to feel this way and want more. I have 4 kids and have gone through some hell with the things my oldest daughter has gone through that leads me to believe there is defenitely nothing looking out for her. All of my hope is lost but for all of you that still have some I wish u the best.. Some things in life happpen and make u whou are and that is true in my case. You're life is what u make it.
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#45663 - 12/26/10 09:46 PM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: manofsteel]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
Faith is a loaded term that means various things to various people. There have been (and will continue to be) many right-hand path followers who attempted (will attempt) to analytically collapse and make concrete abstract ideas concerning the indescribable, for example, faith.

Satanists are faithless.

Let me try to advance this revealed propositional Truth by taking the simple three word sentence a bit further. Embracing Satanism, left-hand path individuals are concerned with pragmatic ultimacy- the Self. Having a belief in something higher possessing attributes like omniscence, omnipotence and omniprescence remains mere blind groping in the dark until a realization of importance comes about: The Self.

Bias towards empirical thoughts predisposes one to questions which are areas of thought either to complicate or make easier the matter. (you descide) For example: 1) The Self is the object Satanists are concerned with because it exists making it real. 2) It is neither spiritual or material; completing the second inquiry probing the area of the nature of the Self. 3) Finally, the Self is indirectly real because their are many human-animals which inhere a unique Self which they claim ownership.

As my further investigation goes, Satanists have an indirect Self that is real.
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#45664 - 12/26/10 10:41 PM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: paolo sette]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
We can't escape having faith. At times, when you agree with someone, you can't but agree with him knowing what he says is true, even when you are beyond the capacities ever verifying it really is.


Example here: Having the conversation with my boss that the reason I was late for work was because the bus was late. Something he accepts as truth but can't really prove.

But I do also agree with:

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
...there is no reason to start assuming things that always worked or happened, will suddenly not work or happen..


 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
So yes, science and religion are both based on some kind of faith. However, in my opinion there is enough difference between one faith and the other to justify them as being completely separate and different notions.


Agreed. It's unfortunate that there aren't separate terms for the two notions. However, that is why the individual has the option to choose what it may mean to them through various definitions. (Depending on the discussion at hand, of course.)

 Originally Posted By: ManOfSteel
As a satanis I try to think things through for the most part. There are always times in life when s lot of us would wish for someone of something to be watching over us. I believe it is only natural to feel this way and want more. I have 4 kids and have gone through some hell with the things my oldest daughter has gone through that leads me to believe there is defenitely nothing looking out for her.


There are a couple of things I want to respond to in this paragraph.
1.) You said you just do your best to think things through and that is the best that we can do. \:\)

2.) It IS natural for us to want someone to have our backs and watch over us and many of us have that. Just not a god type. We have family and friends that watch out for us. And your daughter does have someone watching out for her.. you. (Note: I don't know the entire story but until my daughter grows up and is stable enough and even after, I will always be watching. \:\) ) She can have "faith" in that.

Whoa, someone hand me a tissue, I just got sappy. My bad... moving on..

 Originally Posted By: ManOfSteel
Some things in life happpen and make u whou are and that is true in my case. You're life is what u make it.


Cheers.

 Originally Posted By: paolo
Faith is a loaded term that means various things to various people.

Agreed.

 Originally Posted By: paolo
Satanists are faithless.

Disagree. Completely. Not only via the definition I used faith for in the OP but also, there are many tangible things that Satanists have faith in. A good example: We have faith in ourselves.

 Originally Posted By: paolo
Having a belief in something higher possessing attributes like omniscence, omnipotence and omniprescence remains mere blind groping in the dark until a realization of importance comes about:

This statement shows that while you state in the beginning of your post that "faith" has various meanings; it only has one meaning to you.

 Originally Posted By: Paolo
As my further investigation goes, Satanists have an indirect Self that is real.


I may be misunderstanding you but as the "Self" is determined as real, it is more direct than indirect, don't you think?
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#45675 - 12/27/10 01:43 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
she was malested if that makes it any better for you. I still don't want you to have to shed a tear but I just wanted you to know. I seek no sympathy I just want to be clear on what we are talking about. I know 100% where i stand and have no queations about anyo9ne else because I don't give a shit. Just making conversation.
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#45677 - 12/27/10 01:59 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: manofsteel]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
That is just awful. I've been down similar roads myself. I empathize with the situation but she still has your support, correct?

I always hate hearing about things like that. It sickens me the things that some kids have to go through in their lives.
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http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#45679 - 12/27/10 02:05 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
She is my baby girl and will always have my support. Thanks for your comments, I really appreciate them. It's always even worse when it is family that did it so we can all suffer and want to kill people forever just for looking at us or my kids wrong. Confused but pissed off and don't understand why people are so fucked up. If it is that bad keepit to your gad damn self.
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#45680 - 12/27/10 02:10 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
Thank you for responding hon. I was just wanting to vent and you helped me do that. I appreciate it. Thank you. It has been a while since my daughter's issue and she is doing good just for FYI. I am just blowin off steam.
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Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#45681 - 12/27/10 02:15 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: manofsteel]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
Not a problem at all; anytime. I am glad that she is doing well. It is hard to recover from things like that. \:\)

It's nice to see proactive and supportive parents. It's people like that, even in those circumstances, make stronger children for this world.


Edited by OrgasmicKarmatic (12/27/10 02:17 AM)
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#45682 - 12/27/10 02:17 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
Hope you enjoyed a happy and cheerful holliday and get to party your ass off for new year's. Good luck this year.
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Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#45683 - 12/27/10 02:21 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: manofsteel]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
My holiday was a mix of my world (my daughter) and a mess of family. It was a great one even if it was a rough year. Here's to the New Year, may it be prosperous for us all.

Much love to you and yours. \:\)
_________________________
I am a ghost.x
http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#45685 - 12/27/10 02:23 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
You too. I wish well for your daughter and you.
_________________________
Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#45689 - 12/27/10 03:19 AM Re: Faith - Dirty word or misconception? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
nocTifer Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 87
Loc: Khazakstan
@O.K.:
sorry you had trouble following my writing. I'll try to be more brief and clear.

ignoring a single person in a cybernetic zone leaves a hole, but does not erase the effect they continue to have upon the zone and people in it. in video-chats, requiring that someone come on camera is insufficient to guarantee their 'reality'. what one is seeing may be a film of someone else or of the person from a previous time. the request to that person to reply vocally might be misunderstood due to lag or a malfunctioning microphone. the request to duplicate a gesture on cam can function in an identifying significance.

'Satanism' doesn't make a good umbrella term because its form is a singular ideological descriptor, whereas the term 'Satanity' relates (positively) to the figure of Satan (as a symbol or an intelligence or any ambiguity using the term/title/name) and refers to all Satanisms which individuals and cults might embrace (it isn't about ideals, but about clarified references, a refined aggregate term anyone might use).

if you're goin' into everything alone, then you're not involved with religion by my estimation, since religion is a group affair. you're doing your own spiritual thing, naturally, and within such a context any term you want to use in any way you like is perfect. thanks for making more clear that you're describing your own personal language and not planning to use it for communication without helping us out. in such a case, definitions are of course not important, and my comments irrelevant. I wasn't suggesting that you needed to be taught anything, but quite the reverse, that your contentions need not apply to anyone else's Satanism. thanks!
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