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#45520 - 12/23/10 04:15 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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I myself am not really bothered about all those different types of Satanism. I prefer to interact with people based on what they are and not really on how they prefer to translate their world-view although I admit, I do have a hard time with anyone kneeling down for something or asking it for assistance. I don't find it dignifying.

Lavey created Satanism and since the devil-worshipers didn't protest, it became the most influential form of Satanism. After him, many tried the same, some more successful than others, and it's a part of the game to be the truest. After all, even all those different types of Satanism just behave according their nature and try to gain dominance. Time will tell who'll be the next king of the hill.

D.

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#45521 - 12/23/10 05:03 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Diavolo]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Feel free to paint whatever you wish as Satanism, but until you can explain just how or why these views should be taken seriously, you should probably work them out so they are at least coherent in your own head.

Have you?


Before you start making me out to be some "freedom for all" Satanist..

These views from their standpoint are to be taken seriously by themselves. They view their reverence for Satan/Dark Lord just as seriously as you take your ADM. They stood up for what they believed in and many were persecuted for what they believed.

I've said this many times to others but I never expected to say it to you..

Just because you say it isn't based on the pretense that you choose not to accept it, doesn't mean there aren't others that won't.

I can CHOOSE to entertain these people that stood for their convictions and beliefs in Satan in the physical (which is VERY Satanic by the by.)

Satanism is adapting the idealism of Satan or the adversary. These people did it very well and managed to stand up successfully even if their ends came at the hands of those who became the tyrants of religious belief.

Your failure is the inability to understand that one can entertain and accept someone else's belief of Satanism without having to have it alter their own structured paradigm. You fight fire with fire here, Dan but all I hear is that you refusing on the pretense that you are right. Where is the real opinion here?

Bottom line to this is: Just because I choose to accept that they very much thought that their Satan was real to them and they formed an alliance with that Satan doesn't mean that I have to accept it as my own structure.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Why don't you explain to us how superstitious belief can fit into a paradigm centered on doubt?


Well, for one, I cannot fully explain something that I do not employ in my life but on the line of superstition, it is in the eye of the beholder. You throw their theories, their essential beliefs, against a wall and they fell flat in your mind. You then decided to take it upon yourself to find what indeed fit with you. They threw these things against the proverbial wall and it bounced back for them.

For some Satan is a very real thing. I find it equally reprehensible to call either party a "fake" because they are living out their lives in the way that they see it fit. If they want to revere Satan as an ally, then why the hell not?

Acceptance of others is not dirty and not everything has to be black and white or right and wrong? What IS right/wrong? Hell, what IS black/white? If our subjective universe is smaller than the universe really is can any one of us truly answer these questions? No, we can't. Take it on "faith" that we know what is best for ourselves and ours. ;\)


Edited by OrgasmicKarmatic (12/23/10 05:04 PM)
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#45522 - 12/23/10 05:22 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Dan_Dread]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356


 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
I think you may have missed my point. The second you worship(befriend/believe in/accept) a 'greater power' outside of yourself, you have departed from the LHP. There is no such thing as theistic Satanism. Clearer? \:\)


I think its fair enough if you are honest and explain that your definition essentially is LaVeys definition and tell people that. However, as I've seen before, you do not present the history of self-proclaimed satanist correctly. You also dismiss their system of thought even though you admit to not having read any of the documents they produced. And now you try to equal LHP with your "true Satanism". Sure they are connected but LHP can absolutely be theistic. Its roots are from a theistic religion - a tradition that is still alive and well today (vamachara, vama marga, tantric hinduism).

So really what is LHP to you and when did it get transformed, according to you, into a atheistic system only?

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#45523 - 12/23/10 05:38 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: TheInsane]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
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TheInsane...still pissing into the wind I see. Why do you even bother? The suit will never fit you.

Satanism is a name given to an existent phenomenon, a current manifested by others before LaVey, but had nothing to do with the dreaded S word prior to him. Many, yourself included, just do not possess the tools to see this for what it is. Don't feel bad son, it ain't for everyone.



Orgasmic...got any crackers for that word soup? ;\)

You say, you are not one of those 'freedom for all Satanists';which I can only assume means you do not accept all definitions of the word at face value, then go on to explain how you do just that.

Are you trying to make me dizzy on purpose?
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#45524 - 12/23/10 05:58 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Dan_Dread]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Orgasmic...got any crackers for that word soup? ;\)


Do you have something else you want to shoot my way that someone else hasn't started before you? (IE Word soup) I'm fairly certain I have started to clean up my responses.

What do you get from following the pack?

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread

You say, you are not one of those 'freedom for all Satanists';which I can only assume means you do not accept all definitions of the word at face value, then go on to explain how you do just that.


Good assumption. I don't take anything at face value. I do my research, entertain ideas that I may or may not take value from and move on.

Hypothesis, research, experiment, result.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread

Are you trying to make me dizzy on purpose?


Are you having issues understanding someone who can research and entertain an idea, respect the person who holds those ideas and not having that interfere with their own structures and beliefs in Satanism?
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#45526 - 12/23/10 06:04 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think you are going too far down the path with respecting or accepting anyone that sticks the label of Satanism to anything. It is useless to be bothered because frankly, there is nothing one can do about it. If someone makes up something and calls it Satanism, you can hardly take them to court over it. But it does not imply one has to accept it. A lot of satanists are fools; one look at JoS, as an example, and you can't come to any other conclusion. So automatically adding someone to the "good" list because of the label leads to nothing but a degeneration of what one stands for.

D.

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#45528 - 12/23/10 06:12 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Diavolo]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I think you are going too far down the path with respecting or accepting anyone that sticks the label of Satanism to anything. It is useless to be bothered because frankly, there is nothing one can do about it. If someone makes up something and calls it Satanism, you can hardly take them to court over it. But it does not imply one has to accept it. A lot of satanists are fools; one look at JoS, as an example, and you can't come to any other conclusion. So automatically adding someone to the "good" list because of the label leads to nothing but a degeneration of what one stands for.

D.


Does that also mean that it is wrong to respect an individual for standing in their conviction? Satanism to one person is another man's trash. What I may claim to believe as a Satanist may be viewed as nonsense to the LaVeyan Satanist but does it not hold it's own then?

I do like and agree with this:

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I prefer to interact with people based on what they are and not really on how they prefer to translate their world-view..
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#45529 - 12/23/10 06:21 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Diavolo Offline
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Of course not but that would depend on the person. I interact with people based upon what they are but this implies they have qualities I admire or respect and honestly, it isn't a that large group.

It doesn't imply I respect anyone because they have a certain view and stand to it. If a certain view is dumb, standing to it doesn't make a person admirable.

D.

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#45530 - 12/23/10 06:26 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Diavolo]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
I see your point. However, do you think it is impossible for a person to respect another regardless of their silly notions?

I believe it is possible to respect someone enough to hear what they have to say but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't have a different opinion or accept it as my own.

By accepting, I accept that is where their convictions lie.
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#45531 - 12/23/10 06:36 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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I think you are too easy with giving respect. If having a view is enough to get respect, one ends up respecting everyone. If one respects everyone, respect means nothing.

D.

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#45533 - 12/23/10 06:48 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Aklo Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
 Quote:
the pre-sentence of "favorite beatdown" kind of makes me wary of even reading it.

Yeah I know! Abrasively clear statements seem to actually hurt you \:\) Consider it payback for the motion sickness you give our little throbbing brains by continually circling around some point or another without ever actually getting to it.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre,
The falcon cannot hear the falconer ....


I'm sure there's a happy medium in the middle there somewhere. Maybe we can get her to read our palms \:\)

 Quote:
These were orgs that I was reading about and asking for honest opinions and research.

Dr. LaVey gives a lot of coverage, in various places, to people he considers predecessors in one sense or another. Examples include Rasputin, Zaharoff, Cagliostro, Deshayes, Twain, Bierce, Wells, Crowley and any number of lesser lights. While the particulars you are researching now may not have made that cut, I would consider them relevant in much the same way.

That is, they contribute to the material, but not to the application. Before LaVey, this was the stuff of literary characters, secret societies, propaganda about white magicians, and the dark underworld of the illegal and fictional and mythical and reprehensible. He didn't found a lodge, or coven, or cult, or gang; he made a church. Before LaVey and his initiates, you would be lucky to get "Atheist" on your dogtags, lucky to be able to study magic even in secrecy.

 Quote:
Theistic Satanists are NOT lesser Satanists.

Plain nonsense. Let's get this settled, if we can.

All opinions are not equal. The most properly egalitarian place in our system, is the courtroom. This is a convention. While people are not in fact genuinely equal -- some are taller, some stupider, some more valuable to society, some more likely to kill someone -- our experience with tyranny led us to understand that it was best to require that they be treated equally under the law, at least before sentencing. This is primarily due to the corruption that power is known to bring; it is impossible to find people who can safely set standards to decide, in advance, just who is more or less deserving of the protections provided by the rule of law.

But even in court, there is no pretense toward considering opinions equal. The concept of the "expert witness" proves this thoroughly. Some opinions -- those based on advanced knowledge and practical application over time -- are manifestly superior to others. The majority of opinions that citizens may hold are in fact worthless. As Joe Friday tends to repeat endlessly in Dragnet, "just give us the facts, ma'am"

Now let's apply this understanding in this context. The opinions of a theist like Blackwood are manifestly inferior, not only to those of pure autotheists like LaVey and atheists like Dawkins, but also to those of more advanced theists like Dr. Aquino. Is this not clear? What part is unclear?

Now the devil cults you are studying at are manifestly inferior, in the most important sense possible, the evolutionary sense; they are extinct. Whether your contemporary theists will fail in that sense, remains to be seen. But "not dead yet" is not the same as "millions strong". And I predict that the extent to which they succeed will be directly proportional, not to their position on the obvious dichotomy, but rather to the amount of genuine autotheism concealed behind that.

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#45534 - 12/23/10 07:03 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Aklo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Orgasmic


Do you have something else you want to shoot my way that someone else hasn't started before you? (IE Word soup) I'm fairly certain I have started to clean up my responses.

What do you get from following the pack?

Give me a break. Just because I am not the only one that has noticed your word to content ratio is absurdly out of whack does not mean I am 'following the pack'

 Quote:

Are you having issues understanding someone who can research and entertain an idea, respect the person who holds those ideas and not having that interfere with their own structures and beliefs in Satanism?

No, I am having trouble with someone that likes to contradict herself, and seems to have a lot of problems expressing her ideas clearly.

Either Satanism is SOMETHING(ie it is a thing/idea that is separate from other things/ideas) or it can be ANYTHING(it can be any idea or thing, therefore meaningless)

Do you think Satanism has meaning or not? Quit being so damned wishy washy and get off the fence.
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#45537 - 12/23/10 07:26 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Dan_Dread]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
I most certainly will NOT give you a break Dan. You tend to turn to insults a lot and from what I've seen (as many have).. those that start tossing around insults just really have nothing to say in general when it comes to the topic. They just have something to say about the person. \:\)

And how do I contradict myself?

Also, I have jumped off the fence and picked a side but of course, you put no thought into asking me exactly what I have claimed.

If one must know, one must ask. This is something I have said you as being a primary perspective of mine. If you are going to try and comment on who I am and my perspectives, why don't you try asking about it? Oh, wait, box mentality. Sorry, but you just wouldn't understand.

Some get it, some don't. \:\)
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#45541 - 12/23/10 08:12 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I most certainly will NOT give you a break Dan. You tend to turn to insults a lot and from what I've seen (as many have).. those that start tossing around insults just really have nothing to say in general when it comes to the topic. They just have something to say about the person.

Bull fucking shit. Show me ONE instance of me 'turning to personal insults' in this thread, or get off your high horse.



 Quote:

And how do I contradict myself?

 Quote:

Before you start making me out to be some "freedom for all" Satanist.


 Quote:

For some Satan is a very real thing. I find it equally reprehensible to call either party a "fake"


So which is it? Either the word, Satanist, means something, or it doesn't. You seem to be trying to have it both ways.

 Quote:

If one must know, one must ask. This is something I have said you as being a primary perspective of mine. If you are going to try and comment on who I am and my perspectives, why don't you try asking about it? Oh, wait, box mentality. Sorry, but you just wouldn't understand.

Some get it, some don't. \:\)

One shouldn't have to ASK you what you think right after reading you go on for half a page about it. Yet, we still do. Why is that?

Again I ask this key question. Does Satanism have definition, or doesn't it?
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#45542 - 12/23/10 08:20 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: OrgasmicKarmatic
I most certainly will NOT give you a break Dan. You tend to turn to insults a lot and from what I've seen (as many have).. those that start tossing around insults just really have nothing to say in general when it comes to the topic. They just have something to say about the person. \:\)

Don't worry about DD; he just needs someone to throw verbal hand grenades at him every now and then. ;\)
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