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#45668 - 12/26/10 11:05 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Diavolo]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I noticed you called satanists predators (somewhere) yet you seem to have respect for anyone's world-views (except Dan's of course), so logically I'd have to conclude you respect their ways of life too. This begs the question how much of a predator you can be when everyone seems to be your equal?


Yes, I did somewhere around there mention that Satanists are predators. No, I do actually respect Dan's ADM and he KNOWS that. I can respect and not interfere with their way of life. This probably comes from the fact that no one I've ever ran into has questioned me in my convictions except here. Which is a nice change.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I think you should reread Dan's commentary. The people who pulled up the label before ASL are not to be considered as the same Satanists today. They are using the same name but can be (and probably are) very different then the definition of Satanism NOW.


Agreed.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
take responsibility for your own shortcomings.


I have taken responsibility to for my own shortcomings but I really do not think that trying to cover my bases is a shortcoming. Nor do I think it is anyone's place to point out my "shortcomings" unless they are trying to be productive with it. Which you weren't.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
So Satanism is anything anyone wants it to be. This flies in the face of your statement that 'you are not an anything goes satanist', which you later clarified as meaning Satanism has definition, ie it can't be anything. You are either being disingenuous or you are not thinking this through. I'd like to think it is the latter.


I don't think ANYTHING can count as Satanism. I think that both Theists and Atheists and Pantheists are all equal and for anyone to point their finger and call "fake" is reprehensible. Does that work for you?

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread

Honestly, I don't even think you know what you believe. I base this off a LOT of interaction with you, not just this thread. As for the history of Satanism..you were what..1 when I first started studying this? I may know a thing or two ;\)


You do know quite a bit more than I do. Which is good. And yes, I do have a firm hold on my own beliefs.. you still haven't asked about. Which you gave me the answer why you haven't. Some of your judgments via our conversations and whatnot, are correct but as for what I believe, you are incorrect Mr. Dread. \:\)

[quote+Dan_Dread]Though I constantly refine what I DO, that says nothing about what I AM. [/quote]

It doesn't?
_________________________
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http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#45669 - 12/26/10 11:16 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
Aklo - You get your own arena.

 Originally Posted By: Aklo
Was it? The people who have actually offered content on this point are TheInsane and myself, with an honorary mention for Dr. Aquino. You haven't engaged any of this content, your whole purpose here seems to be to defend yourself against 0s and 1s and play semantic games. This is a damn shame, because there are gnostics here with traditions older than history, but they are certainly not going to bother with anyone who is willing to ignore their own topic for three pages and disregard the abundant content already provided.


Yes, and Aquino and TheInsane have offered me a lot of insight for me to read. How am I supposed to offer anything into their conversation without some of my own research being done? They have offered books suggestions and I have taken them. I have a long list and can only read so long.

Also, semantic battles happen all over this site and have since as far as I can remember being here and as long as 600 has existed. (Including WAY BACK into 2007 which is as far as the archived goes due to the reformatting of the site.) I pay much more attention than this paragraph even gives me credit for. Then again, I don't want credit. It was just something that I did research on and because a worthy discussion happened inside of it, I am able to further my knowledge on these things.

 Originally Posted By: Aklo
Again you have hopped down off the fence for 2 seconds to profess some vague non-theism, and no one seems to have cared or noticed. Specifically those who seem to care didn't notice, those who noticed don't seem to care. Whose fault would this be?

. . .

About the fighting, I'm sure you think you are just defending yourself, but you aren't. Keeping the other side from scoring a goal is one thing. Hopping up and down yelling NUH UH once they've scored it, is retarded.


Who is the one fighting? I certainly do not feel as though I am fighting with anyone nor do I feel like I am jumping up and down saying "nu uh".

And as for the proverbial fence, I dropped off the fence awhile ago. And I suppose you want me to take the blame for no one noticing? Okay, sure. I'll take the blame for that but does anyone really want me to go into what I believe because they are interested or is it more that they want to pick that a part too? It's amazing that you spent all that time writing this post and did not have anything to say but "Who cares? Oh, and there were some useful stuff in the three pages you seemed to ignore".

I ignore a lot less than you think.
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http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#45674 - 12/27/10 01:29 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: OrgasmicKarmatic
I don't think ANYTHING can count as Satanism. I think that both Theists and Atheists and Pantheists are all equal and for anyone to point their finger and call "fake" is reprehensible. Does that work for you?


Equality does not exist. To think all theists, atheists and pantheists are equal is a silly idea at best. That one isnít bothered about them all calling themselves Satanists is one thing but concluding that therefore they are all equal is, fundamentally, having no respect for anyone. It implies that you put the smartest and strongest at the same level as the dumbest and weakest.

Only the dumb and weak will share that sentiment.

D.

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#45678 - 12/27/10 02:03 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Diavolo]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
Each side has their personal inequalities. Those are personal. Some fall short, intelligence or knowledge wise. Some don't. However, each side of Satanism has it's own equal right to be recognized as Satanism even if it's only entertained by their party alone.

Making Satanism sound like politics.

The inequalities fall on the individual not the chosen path of the individual.
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http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#45686 - 12/27/10 02:27 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
So what you are saying is that we should acknowledge anyone as a satanist simply because they say they are one and it should not matter at all what path they have chosen, even if that path is leading nowhere?

D.

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#45687 - 12/27/10 02:33 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Diavolo]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
Well really if you think about it she does have a point. Satanists are people who stand alone and hve their own beliefs no matter what the masses believe. Even if sometimes wrong we stand behind our beliefs strong and firm but we don't try to persuade everyone else to join our band of beliefs. We are who we are and that is that. I noone else likes it, well you know what you can do with yourself.
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Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#45690 - 12/27/10 03:59 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Moravagine Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 16
Howdy OK,

If I might ask: what is your definition of Satanism?

I'm not trying to pick a fight or engage in some epic, pointless semantic battle [though some others here might, and I will respect your decision if you choose to avoid that mess \:\) ]. It might help with this thread though, and add a little context to the pre CoS research.


Edited by Moravagine (12/27/10 03:59 AM)

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#45691 - 12/27/10 04:02 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: manofsteel]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
So what you are saying is that we should acknowledge anyone as a satanist simply because they say they are one and it should not matter at all what path they have chosen, even if that path is leading nowhere?


You do not have to personally acknowledge any one path. For example, what I believe may be complete rubbish to you but my path is chosen and suited to fit my needs and wants. It does not make what I believe wrong; just wrong for you.

 Originally Posted By: ManOfSteel
Satanists are people who stand alone and hve their own beliefs no matter what the masses believe. Even if sometimes wrong we stand behind our beliefs strong and firm but we don't try to persuade everyone else to join our band of beliefs. We are who we are and that is that. I noone else likes it, well you know what you can do with yourself.


Agreed. Never go into anything thinking anyone has your back or your same ideas and don't stand down just because someone thinks that your ideas are trash. This doesn't mean you shouldn't look at the why when it comes to people's comments on your beliefs and maybe reformat them if they need to be but to be flimsy on your own beliefs is a definite no go as well.

I would not be where I am today (even if it's not as far as some) if I didn't stand by my convictions and take value from everything around me. Every experience I have in my life makes me stronger. \:\)
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http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#45692 - 12/27/10 04:05 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: manofsteel]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
When you think everyone who claims the title of Satanist deserves to be recognized/respected as a Satanist, you are an idiot.

There are more than enough idiots running around claiming the title of Satanist that need to be put down.

Respect is earned, not just freely given. To give any idiot any measure of respect because they claim to be a Satanist is just stupid.

Just look at mess of stupid Satanic wanna-be websites and you-tube videos. None of them deserve respect or recognition.

When you believe that everyone who claims to be a Satanist deserves equal treatment, then you sure as hell aren't one and can't tell the difference.

Next....

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#45694 - 12/27/10 04:31 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Moravagine]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
I'll be damned. Someone actually asked.

I employ autotheism in my journey of Satanism. I believe that I am my own god and that only I control my life. I also believe in an natural inner force (Satan) that is unified through all living things; including the universe. I do not believe that this force drives me to do anything but I do believe that I can use this force to my advantage.

I have a rather Pantheistic view on Satan. I am not a theist although, to the untrained eye it would seem as though I did due to the ideas expressed about an inner force.

When it comes to where we came from: I don't really care.. I haven't put much thought into it because I believe that there is more into living each day in the present and not in the past. Every little second that goes by affects the future. This post, will effect my future in some way.

It is a philosophy and not a religion in my eyes. Satanism is in the DO and the HOW.. not the what. The what comes into play when you see a person employing Satanism. You just know.

I believe that a Satanist must be:
-Strong in their convictions (if you can't stand for one thing, you'll fall for anything)
-Be able to stand tall in their community through their contributions
-Be of sound mind
-Be able to take what they want/need for themselves
-Be able to be human without making "being human" an excuse
-Be able to accept their faults and change them if they can
-Always progress..

Anyhow I don't want to make a book of it. Hopefully, that gave you some kind of idea?
_________________________
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http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#45695 - 12/27/10 04:59 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: OrgasmicKarmatic
You do not have to personally acknowledge any one path. For example, what I believe may be complete rubbish to you but my path is chosen and suited to fit my needs and wants. It does not make what I believe wrong; just wrong for you.


I think you forget the option that a chosen path can be stupid or weak in which case it would certainly be wrong for me but this doesn't make it right for others. It is I who judge, regardless of their opinion.

Elitism is an essential part of Satanism because this elitism is a motivator in the process of becoming. It is through this elitism we can make a distinction between what is stupid and what is smart. As such, people acting according to what we call stupid or smart are stupid or smart. Without this elitism, there can be no Satanism. What you subscribe to seems to be a degeneration of it all. It is of course a state of mind which you sooner or later have to abandon because egalitarianism only works until someone enters your comfort zone and makes you realize that it is not because you find them equal, they are of the same opinion. Which will make you realize how natural inequality is.

What you subscribe to doesn't seem very satanic to me because you embrace the mass; the weak and worthless under the illusion that what might seem wrong to you isn't necessarily so and might be right for others which turns all wrongs into right. So no matter what we do or think, we're all good. We are all children of the same god.

It's the kind of Satanism that only, and excusez moi pour le mot, a housewife can come up with.

D.

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#45698 - 12/27/10 05:45 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Draculesti Offline
Impaler
member


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
As Diavolo said, equality does not exist. Philosophical systems, like the biological individual, are not equal. Consider this: one path is smooth with few imperfections and easily traveled; the other is rife with bumps, cracks, and holes, which make for a bumpy ride and an almost certain recipe for catastrophe. That being said, is the one path just as good as the other? In the first path, it is carefully planned out, and each layer is carefully laid out. In the other, the work is shoddy, various stones of disparate sizes are placed with little care or thought, creating an uneven path full of places to catch one's toe and cause one to stumble. But at least they've made a path!

The problem is, that they are trying to merge their path with the other, for the paths ARE distinct from one another. Their path, however, will never be like the other, nor shall the twain ever meet, because their construction methods are poor at best.
_________________________
The Holy Trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

Homo Homini Lupus

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#45704 - 12/27/10 11:01 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Draculesti]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
While many have no problem identifying the worthless in other religions or other levels in society (calling them mass or herd) they presume that once the label of Satanist is taken, those qualities disappear; as if through embracing the label, people magically transform. All levels of society and all followers of philosophies and religions contain people ranging from admirable to despicable, although the degrees of each might differ in all.

In Satanism it is not different. It is not because someone calls himself a Satanist, he automatically turns into something admirable or respectable. Many claiming the label do so for the wrong reasons, or out of ignorance, and because of this, we also end up with a lot of people that do not differ at all from the herd or mass we identify outside of Satanism. Strangely enough they all want to be regarded as full by others even when most of them lack essential qualities. What they don't realize is that, outside of the teen-environment where a certain haircut or dress-code might buy acceptance, in Satanism, as in every other aspect of the "real" world, acceptance requires effort.

Acceptance will only happen if people consider you worthy. And to be considered worthy, you need to have certain qualities and be able to put these to work. You need to prove yourself. If one attracts a lot of criticism or isn't considered as full, the best one can do is some introspection, wonder if there might be something valid to the criticism and use that as a catalyst for improvement. But few do succeed in this because it either requires qualities they don't posses or effort they can't give to it. Whenever their Satanism is nothing but that fashionable haircut, they'll quickly find out the limitations of it. Their cry for acceptance resembles that of a one-legged player desiring his position in the football team too.

It just ain't going to happen.

D.

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#45708 - 12/27/10 12:13 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Diavolo]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
This "I am so I get" idea started out in earnest in the late 60s and early seventies when the "witchcrap" phenomenon raised its ugly head. Suddenly everyone wanted to be a witch, and as soon as they declared themselves to be witches, they assumed that they were bequeathed the knowledge of the universe from Cernunnos, the Green Man or whatever fantasy figure caught their fancy. There was talk of imagining bolts of "blue flame" and levitating into the Astral Plane. Then, almost in the blink of an eye, we had 15 and 16 year old High Priests and High Priestesses claiming ancient lineage and massive power, which they would gladly demonstrate for you, but they had to wash up for dinner or their mom would kill them.

We see the same thing in Satanism. The arrogantly ignorant read a book, and decide, "Well, I like the philosophy," so I must be a Satanist. OK. That's done. I guess it's time for me to start throwing curses and... sure enough, a new King of Hell is born -- or queen. Ignorance is an equal opportunity thing. And they start rattling off what is and what isn't, which is usually some pop theory or contrived hybrid to allow them to fit in with whatever crowd they need for their social support and still find their "elitist core."

When you try to tell people that just being or declaring yourself to be a Satanist means nothing without the dedicated study and strengthening of one's personal life and psyche, they don't want to hear it. They see Satanists that people respect and decide, I can now be equal to (insert name here), because I have been a Satanist for a couple of weeks now. Surely a person with 2, 4, 10, 20, 30 or 40 years of experience CAN'T be that much more aware that I, so I'll just show them what I know, and they'll accept me with open arms. They're often shocked at the response, predictable though it may be.

It's that way with everything from working at a fast food chain to the military to corporate life. Someone gets in the door and they automatically feel that they've made it big time. They're IN... so they want top salary, a corner office and an expense account, just like the boss, who's earned his bones and has been in the business for 10, 20 or 30 years. They carp and complain when they find out they just aren't going to get it... predictably and expectedly.

Look boys and girls, don't take it so hard. It happens to us all. When I was coming up in the military, I was nothing but ideas. It took years of study and application and proven success for me to become accepted and eventually an authority on my specialty. When I retired, I could pick up the phone and call any counterpart around the world and say, "This is Jake and this is what I need." People knew that I knew what I was talking about.

I went from the military to a corporation. Big corporation. Fortune 500 corporation. One day, shortly after I had sharpened my pencils and put them neatly on the corner of my desk and admired my name on the door of my office, I picked up the phone and said, "This is Jake and this is what I need." I wasn't really prepared to hear, "Ok, and who the hell are you?" But again, with study and application and experience, the situation changed in my favor. But NOTHING is given to you simply because you fit the suit or wear a title.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#45713 - 12/27/10 02:43 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Jake999]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
I agree with the views of Jake999.

I am unable to comment on the baby boomer types from the 1960's and 1970's other than to note that the hippies evolution into witchcraft, wiccanism and paganism, not to mention the vast explosion in new age ideas, is a natural outcome of their egotism.

The children of the hippies, the generation Y's, are a problem that corporations, military and Satanism face, in that they have existed in a cotton wool background where their needs were instantly met. The Gen Y's come into the real world with delusions that all things are offered on a plate instantly, and they are entitled, with the world owing them something for little investment. I won't employ Gen Y's.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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