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#45718 - 12/27/10 04:38 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: manofsteel]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: manofsteel
Well really if you think about it she does have a point. Satanists are people who stand alone and hve their own beliefs no matter what the masses believe. Even if sometimes wrong we stand behind our beliefs strong and firm but we don't try to persuade everyone else to join our band of beliefs. We are who we are and that is that. I noone else likes it, well you know what you can do with yourself.


Maybe I read this wrong (if so I appologize) but did you actually write that even if we are wrong we should stand strong and firm in our beliefs? If so I cant disagree more. I think its important to be honest with oneself and be humble if a mistake is made and then go on and try to fix it not to stick to whatever it was that was the false belief.

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#45814 - 01/01/11 03:17 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: TheInsane]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
All I meant is that whatever you're beliefs are that you should not be shy and stand behind them. I am just saying that if Satanism or whatever is you're belief then let it be and don't back down. Not many people know about it because it is always covered up but if more people were open about it and actually explained what it meant I think we would have more people involved. I am saying people should be strong and don't back down from what they believe in is all. You don't have to show a Pentagram to the world but you also don't have to hide when people ask you you're religion or what you believe in is all I am saying. Stand strong and state your facts and after that if they don't understand then fuck em. Don't waste you're time but give it a chance.
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Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#45815 - 01/01/11 04:36 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: manofsteel]
Harvey Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 39
 Quote:
All I meant is that whatever you're beliefs are that you should not be shy and stand behind them. I am just saying that if satanism or whatever is you're belief then let it be and don't back down. Not many people know about it because it is always covered up but if more people were open about it and actually explained what it meant I think we would have more people involved.


Okay. That's one approach... I guess.

Do you feel that you might somehow benefit or improve your life by being outspoken? Are you attempting a recruitment drive? If so, good luck!

Dr. Aquino has covered this elsewhere. Pay heed - he knows what he's talking about. \:\)

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#45822 - 01/01/11 01:40 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Harvey]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Harvey
Dr. Aquino has covered this elsewhere. Pay heed - he knows what he's talking about. \:\)

One of my Dad's aphorisms was: "Never fall on your sword in the semi-finals."

Choose your wars, and focus on winning the war, not every battle. The First Beast put it like this:

 Originally Posted By: Aleister Crowley, The Confessions
If one had to worry about one’s actions in respect of other people’s ideas, one might as well be buried alive in an antheap or married to an ambitious violinist. Whether that man is the prime minister, modifying his opinions to catch votes, or a bourgeois in terror lest some harmless act should be misunderstood and outrage some petty convention, that man is an inferior man and I do not want to have anything to do with him any more than I want to eat canned salmon.

Of course the world forces us all to compromise with our environment to some extent, and we only waste our strength if we fight pitched battles for points which are not worth a skirmish. It is only a faddist who refuses to conform with conventions of dress and the like. But our sincerity should be Roman about things that really matter to us.

And I am still in doubt, as I write these words, as to how far it is right to employ strategy and diplomacy in order to gain one’s point. The great men of the world have stood up and taken their medicine ...

Adaptation to one’s environment makes for a sort of survival; but after all, the supreme victory is only won by those who prove themselves of so much harder stuff than the rest that no power on Earth is able to destroy them. The people who have really made history are the martyrs.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#45840 - 01/01/11 07:39 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Harvey]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
I'm not trying to do shit but say what I mean and I speak how I feel. You can take it however you like. I just try to live my life strongly and teach my kids to believe stronglyin themlelves and that is it. I don't care which road anyone takes to get there but self confidence is one of the most powerful tools anyone can have. That's all it is. If I was trying to recruit I difinetely wouldn't be on a already Satanism website you dipshit. But then again take it however you want. By the way before you go talking shit maybe you should at least gain some respect here first. You don't see me ridiculing people cause I am still pretty new myself. Good luck.
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Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#45841 - 01/01/11 07:54 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Morgan]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
Maybe before you jump to conclusions you should ask what I meant since I didn't say that exctly. I am saying as a person we should demand respect. There are many assholes who are satanists that I have read or heard that I give no respect at all. I am just saying personally I think just as I'm sure you do we all want respect in our lives. I try to treat people with respect and I expect it in return is all I'm saying. The same shit our grandparents taught us. I don't care what religion you are if you're an asshole then you're an asshole, plain and simple. Hope that cleared it up a bit. If not, have a nice day anyways. I'll refrain from name calling as some othere do?...
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#45843 - 01/01/11 09:08 PM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: manofsteel]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I think my reply was more of a general quick response than actually to you manofsteel.

But as I said, respect is earned, not freely given.
Someone can demand respect all they want(in general, not you specifically), but not deserve it.

Oh, and yeah, I can be an asshole on occasion, I just don't care to sugar coat bullshit.

M
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Fuck em if they can't take a joke
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#45847 - 01/02/11 01:00 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: Morgan]
creativevalue Offline
banned
pledge


Registered: 04/14/10
Posts: 93
Your reply to manofsteel made me think of alternative considerations. You say respect must be earned, which I understand. But that leads to situational scenarios?

Let's look at two variations:

1. Do you give respect to a stranger? Someone who you really do not know other than brief contact, would they as human beings deserve respect?

I would give them the normal respect expected in the situation, but I would be careful because I do not know them. This implies that there are different levels of respect. It also implies that respect is very different than "trust". Trust seems to be at a higher level than respect.

2. What of someone who has limited abilities, but works really hard at what they do. Do they deserve respect for trying hard to do good at something with the limited ability they have? Let's compare this person to a genius who is lazy?

I think I respect the person who really works hard to accomplish something even if they have lesser ability. At least they tried to change their the world, and may have had in impact in the process.

I do not respect the genius who did not try to use their talent to its full extent, because the genius could have done much more and chose to waste their ability.

I think this now brings me back to your statement about earning respect. Only there are now various degrees of respect, and it is possible to have more respect for someone with lesser ability who works hard, over someone who has greater ability and wastes their chances to improve.

Also, I noticed you don't care to sugar coat bullshit. I do not eat sugar either. However, I have a real weakness for unsweetended sugarless 100% chocolate! Do you "respect" unsweetened chocolate?

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#45849 - 01/02/11 02:12 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: manofsteel]
Harvey Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 39
MOM, he called me a dipshit!

Firstly, by saying this:

 Quote:
Are you attempting a recruitment drive? If so, good luck!


I was referring to this:

 Quote:
Not many people know about it [Satanism] because it is always covered up but if more people were open about it and actually explained what it meant I think we would have more people involved.


Obviously we're talking about the real world here, not the 600C. Got it? Good.

I'm sure you can appreciate the fact that most people can be rather dense. Particularly in relation to things like religion, politics and sexual orientation.

I am not aware of your situation, and frankly, I don't care. But I'll give an example: let's say you decide to explain your views on Satanism to an employer who happens to be a devout Christian/Muslim/whatever. You are unlikely to enter into a meaningful dialogue. More likely you'll lose favor with them, if not your job. It may be much wiser to avoid the issue entirely.

Surely you can think of other examples where expressing an unpopular opinion in mixed company might result in undesirable consequences for yourself.

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#45850 - 01/02/11 02:59 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: manofsteel]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
By the way before you go talking shit maybe you should at least gain some respect here first.


There is no set amount of time one is expected be here before they can "ridicule" others. All that is expected is that it is done intelligently. Insulting someone just for the sake of insulting someone is unacceptable behavior from anyone, regardless of how long they have been posting on this site.

 Quote:
You don't see me ridiculing people cause I am still pretty new myself.


Really? So you didn't just call Harvey a "dipshit"? My eyes must be failing me in my old age because I am sure that you did...
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No gods. No masters.

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#45867 - 01/03/11 03:27 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
Well, uhh u may have me there but hey what can I say sometimes we all just get irritated. Anyway thanx for pointing that out. We can all be smart asses and dick heads I know. Whatever, I am known for not being so kind to people either when I think it's bullshit so let it fly, it makes for good conversation. So basically I'm saying happy mother fucking whatever we don't agree with. Enough said.
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Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#77774 - 07/04/13 10:35 AM Re: Ophite Cultus Satanas/Others before LaVey [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6786
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
Anyone have any comments or perhaps done any research of their own they'd like to offer up in reference to the Cult listed or Satanism before the 1960s?


I would think the -ism is an important factor to consider when looking for groups/individuals using Satan in a cultus prior to the 20th Century.

 Quote:
It's the kind of Satanism that only, and excusez moi pour le mot, a housewife can come up with.


I think Diavalo made a salient point here. This topic gives the appearance of coupon-clipping. What are you looking for specifically when you search for the existence of Satanism in past eras? A discount on a volume of study and practice?

He made other comments with regard to substituting labels such as Devil Worshiper, Luciferian, etc. At closer examination you often find LaVey at the core underneath all those masks. Even if the individual claims that they don't subscribe to the ideals of LaVey or haven't even read him. LaVey has influenced other writers so they are getting it by Proxy.

I interviewed M.C. from Cathedral of the Black Goat a while back, if you listen closely you can detect the Satanic Nuances underneath the fancy window dressing of the Devil Worshiper HERE. The markers of the "Devil in Man", are addressing very specific ideals held in Modern Satanism.

When looking for it in people/groups in previous centuries Satanism would have to mean something very specific for you to detect it. Another group that if special interest to new Satanists is typically the D Theurgistes Satanic Society, see: La'Bas, 1891(Novel). The group from the 19th century believed the Church invented Satan to turn them into Black Magicians and have them vilified in the Middle Ages (Templars). They were instead, using Lucifer as the great architect for conscious creation. It was around this same time, that the Rites of Exorcism were written and published, to ensure that 'Satan' as a demonic possessing entity would stick. There's a paper you can look for on-line, I think its called Epic of the Francs, or Epic of God of the Francs (the name escapes me at the moment). It will address the history by a 'Masonic' point of view. The D-Theurgistes Optimates, seek to destroy the 'false reality' created by the Church, destroy it utterly, and raise up Lucifer as god once more. It must destroy the system, burn it to the ground, so that they can usher in a new reality, fueld by belief.

Many of these folks just raise up an archetype and replace the Abrahamic God with it, the Anti-Hero then becomes their new Hero. This is why many just call Bullshit on the whole pony-show but especially if the paradigm they live by keeps them stunted and in a cycle of personal failure. I mean at what point are they going to realize themselves their own enemy? Those that use the 'Devil Worshiper' archetype with rational and reasoning behind it can usually articulate it fine without dancing around the issue.

People are going to believe in all kinds of things but knowing a person doesn't surmount to immediate respect for what they believe in. I think people confuse Consideration and Courtesy with Respect far too often. I can't help but laugh when some of my 'Satanist' associates make apologies aloud to Satan for a self-created form of guilt. Not much different than Christians asking God for forgiveness when they stumble away from the Orthodoxy. Inter-personal relationships often include considerations for thoughts and personality.

I can laugh and make fun, and my associates can either get offended or understand where I'm coming from. Otherwise, why bother associating with me in the first place? I wouldn't expect that person to abandon their beliefs because I think its silly no more than they expect me to abandon my own, however we don't grow if they remain unchallenged.

An old friend of mine refuses to cut poles because of the superstition of bad luck. If we're walking down the street together and we come upon a pole in a crowded area, she will go out of her way to ensure she's on the same side as I am. If we happen to cut poles, she insists on going back to un-cut the pole. I'll humor her sometimes because she's a trip, it doesn't mean I don't tell her how stupid I think it is. She really thinks bad luck will bestow her if we don't go back, even if I think that's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. All she needs is something to go wonky and its personal affirmation for her. I understand it but I don't have to accept it or respect it. She's been programmed by cultural influence. I have tons of books on Superstitions, it covers the origins and uses today. Some of them are fairly commonplace like 'knocking on wood'. I see people that think superstitions are stupid use that one a lot. I can't help but smirk when they do it, and make fun when ever possible. I'll do it for shiggles to be sarcastic. I actually use quite a few Superstitious items in my home aesthetic, such as the Nazar Amulet to ward against the Evil Eye, Keys, Mirrors and a bunch of other items. It reminds me of how silly humans can be.


See: THE GOD YOU SAVE MY BE YOURSELF

 Quote:
Could it be that when he closes the gap between himself and his "God" he sees the demon of pride creeping forth - that very embodiment of Lucifer appearing in his midst? He no longer can view himself in two parts, the carnal and the spiritual, but sees them merge as one, and then to his abysmal horror, discovers that they are only the carnal - AND ALWAYS WERE! Then he either hates himself to death, day by day - or rejoices that he is what he is! -Anton LaVey
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#77846 - 07/08/13 07:52 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: creativevalue]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
 Originally Posted By: creativevalue

1. Do you give respect to a stranger? Someone who you really do not know other than brief contact, would they as human beings deserve respect?

I would give them the normal respect expected in the situation, but I would be careful because I do not know them. This implies that there are different levels of respect. It also implies that respect is very different than "trust". Trust seems to be at a higher level than respect.

2. What of someone who has limited abilities, but works really hard at what they do. Do they deserve respect for trying hard to do good at something with the limited ability they have? Let's compare this person to a genius who is lazy?

I think I respect the person who really works hard to accomplish something even if they have lesser ability. At least they tried to change their the world, and may have had in impact in the process.

I do not respect the genius who did not try to use their talent to its full extent, because the genius could have done much more and chose to waste their ability.

I think this now brings me back to your statement about earning respect. Only there are now various degrees of respect, and it is possible to have more respect for someone with lesser ability who works hard, over someone who has greater ability and wastes their chances to improve.
There's a difference in giving someone respect, and actually respecting them. I'll treat someone with respect, as long as they show it to me, basically I'm not an ass hole. But, to have respect for someone there has to be something about them I respect. It could be respecting something they've accomplished, or some trait they have.

Also, I must point out that people aren't just born with abilities and can't change them. It's about working smart, and taking effective measures to improve your abilities/skills. People who realize this, can overcome genetic disadvantages. However, it seems few people do use this to effect.

If someone is just born a genius, there is no reason to respect them because it means it just happened by chance, and there's nothing they did to make it happen. It's no more impressive than someone winning the lottery. I respect knowledge, because that is learned. Regardless of what your genetics, if you don't bother to take the time to learn things you won't be well versed in any field.


Edited by 334forwardspin (07/08/13 07:56 AM)

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#80638 - 09/30/13 02:11 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: mabon2010]
N2SYN Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/22/13
Posts: 17
Loc: Ohio,USA
Ahhh, now something I can sink my teeth into. I recently moved to Ohio, and one day stumbled upon "our lady of Endor" whilst searching out any paranormal phenomena in the area. Out of Toledo they were. I was curious about them myself, as I was with a lot out here, in these parts. I would also like to know if they were in fact, still intact, and are still on the surface as of today?
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Endless schools of thought, breed endless worlds~
Don't let this madness make you into a sub human~

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#80658 - 09/30/13 11:19 AM Re: Research of Satanism before LaVey [Re: N2SYN]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Sloane certainly seemed dedicated to his unique gnostic/witchcraft current, but it probably atrophied over time due to a lack of the tightly-knit organization and robust public image that kept the CoS in the spotlight. His coven's footprints seem to have faded away sometime in the 70s. Such was the fate of many a cult, coven, and church in those days.

I recently stumbled across a detailed section on them in a book simply titled "Witches" (can't remember the author). It included a transcription of one of their rituals, which resembled a Wiccan sabbat with a heavy Valentinian influence, and some reverse-Christian bits thrown in to taste. An interesting item of occult history.
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