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#45767 - 12/30/10 12:46 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Diavolo]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Maybe to clarify it a bit more; to many of us the on-line aspect of Satanism isn't really important since it is only a minor part of what we call being satanic. It, of course, fulfills an evident need and can be an appropriate tool but, at the level of importance, the real emphasis is at our lives.

What I point at is the noticeable shift in emphasis where the on-line aspect becomes the major part of certain people's Satanism.

D.

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#45771 - 12/30/10 03:59 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Jason King]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
Those very same people who protest that their Satanism needs no manifestation outside of their (invariably extremely well to-do) lives are still bothering to take the time to post to a forum and manifest their Will.


The only point that I've attempted to make with regard to your thoughts on this is that people 'manifest' (or become what they are) in different ways. I come here because I learn from others and, on occasion, I feel I can offer clarity to a discussion or two. The greater balance of my life is focused off of the internet in trying to build my vision out there in the OU (and in developing perspectives to keep my SU as sharp as possible).

"Extremely well to do" is something I'm aiming for, but have yet to attain (by my standards anyway). The point is, that's where the thrill of the hunt is for me. It makes me no less 'satanic' that I choose to keep my internal philosophies largely private. My intent is to 'manifest' in a way that leads to tangible assets while developing the acumen (via applying satanic principles) necessary to get me there.

In here, I can wear that as a badge of honor, in a way, because I'm among people who understand it for what it is (second nature to most who find themselves here).

Regarding brownie points...

There are those out there trying to build a satanic persona for intangible reasons largely, and tangible reasons secondarily. The goal, it appears, is to become widely known as a satanist. For the most part, I see these people as clowns.

There are some, though, who I think represent their own authentic 'manifestation' via the communication of their ideas and thought processes to others (ie, they learn as they teach). I would put LaVey in this category as well as Dr. Aquino and quite a few others including (as it appears to me now) yourself. I might be wrong, but it does appear to me that your public persona is a genuine portrayal of who you are. Which is, in effect, a long winded way of saying that I don't think you represent the demographic Diavolo was alluding to (though you might to him).

If I had to name names ... I could \:\)
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#45772 - 12/30/10 04:01 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Diavolo]
Draculesti Offline
Impaler
member


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
D, if I understood your OP, I think This is particularly germane to the discussion at hand. ASL said it best:
 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey
Satanism is the only religion which serves to encourage and enhance one’s individual preferences, so long as there is admission of those needs. Thus, one’s personal and indelible religion (the picture) is integrated into a perfect frame. It’s a celebration of individuality without hypocrisy, of solidarity without mindlessness, of objective subjectivity. There need be no deviation from these principles. They should summarily negate internecine strife and bickering. Any attempts at Satanic “reformation” should be seen for what they are: creating problems where none exist. There should be no place in any religion for reformers whose very religion is the fetish of reformation. There is even a place and title for compulsive dissidents, and if they can wear the mantle, they are welcome. They would delude themselves to be revolutionaries. In our camp, they are called “House Masochists.”


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Maybe to clarify it a bit more; to many of us the on-line aspect of Satanism isn't really important since it is only a minor part of what we call being satanic. It, of course, fulfills an evident need and can be an appropriate tool but, at the level of importance, the real emphasis is at our lives.

What I point at is the noticeable shift in emphasis where the on-line aspect becomes the major part of certain people's satanism.



While many do choose to be here, something should be said of the amount of time spent here, which you pointed at in your last post. We have certainly had the case here of certain members living out their "Satanism" entirely on here. Those who are "doing" likely spend the least amount of time here. Just because I choose to be here, it doesn't mean that this is the extent of Satanism in my life.
_________________________
The Holy Trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

Homo Homini Lupus

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#45773 - 12/30/10 04:53 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Fnord]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
I might be wrong, but it does appear to me that your public persona is a genuine portrayal of who you are. Which is, in effect, a long winded way of saying that I don't think you represent the demographic Diavolo was alluding to (though you might to him).


I wasn't including Mr King in my critique indeed. Although I do know little about him besides what is presented on-line, it at least is obvious he is intelligent and knows what he is talking about. If I might have given the impression I was including him, I apologize for that.

D.

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#45775 - 12/30/10 05:39 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Jason King]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1724
Loc: New York
 Quote:
There are doers and talkers (forgive the obvious irony here), and despite protestations to the contrary, Satanism has not been capable of cutting off the dead wood in any meaningful way. It has almost become an albatross of sorts. And I do realize that many would rejoin with a hearty "so what?," or "who cares?". And yet, these same people are here. Those very same people who protest that their Satanism needs no manifestation outside of their (invariably extremely well to-do) lives are still bothering to take the time to post to a forum and manifest their Will.


I can freely admit that in some sense I recognize myself in the above paragraph, and not in a positive sense.
I find that although I believe that I have a decent understanding of what Satanism is, and represents I have a very difficult time applying it to my life in a way that I find satisfactory.
In other words I could talk with someone for hours describing what kind of a person a Satanist is, and what kind of a life they lead, but if one would observe my life objectively they could call me a hypocrite and possibly have a valid argument against my claim of being a Satanist.

For instance it is my firm belief that for one to be a Self Actualized Satanist they would have to be financially self reliant. This would preclude anyone who earns a living by working for someone other then themselves, because in my opinion on cannot truly be who they are if they are following the rules and regulations of others for 40 hours a week just to make a living.

Because of either life circumstance, lack of intelligence, or will, I fall into that later category. Although I do not depend on hand outs or the good will of others for my survival, I do in fact have to eat a shit load of crow and do things that I would rather not do in order to earn a living. To me that is very un-satanic, and it is something that I have been trying to change for most of my life.

On the other hand what I do see as Satanic in me is the ability to see and admit where I fall short, as well as being able to draw a line as to how much I allow myself to be manipulated by the “outside” world, and be able to admit at least to myself when I am being manipulated instead of making up excuses and self delusions to being in total control all of the time.
My Satanic personality is also often validated by those who are not even familiar with Satanism when they express their views of me. When one of my patients in the spirit of levity started to refer to me as Lucifer and the nick name stuck I took it as a kind of affirmation to my beliefs and actions and quite enjoy it. I do not need such outside affirmations, but non the less I do like them.

Coming to the 600 club for me is in no way an attempt (that I’m aware of) to “Manifest” my will.
This place is my personal decompression chamber of sorts. It is a place where I feel that I can come and be among people who share a large portion of my views. That is something that I cannot find in the outside world.
Before the age of the internet I thought that I was some kind of a freak of nature because of the way my mind worked and for some of the feelings, or better yet, for some of the LACK of feelings and emotions that I had. Reading the Satanic Bible did give me the sense that at least one other person thought like I did, but it almost seemed as if Anton and I were pretty much the only ones. Even when I joined earlier Satanic forums such as “Ltts,” I felt like a big chunk of “something,” was missing. After awhile I felt like an outsider there as well.

600 so far is the only place where I feel as if there are people who truly share in the foundation of my views. Sure, there are time when even the people that I respect the most here go off in a direction that I cannot relate to at all, or the subjects they talk about are way over my head. However that doesn’t take away from the fact that in general I feel totally “in tune,” with them.
Being a human being with human needs, one tends to seek out those they can relate to. If it cannot be found in the “real world,” then cyber space has to suffice.

Satanism isn’t something that I chose for myself because it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy or because it makes me feel in some way superior to others. On the contrary it seems to have chosen me. I find being a Satanist to be damn difficult, because it makes me my own worst critic and it doesn’t allow me to delude myself in any way. As a matter of fact not a day goes by that it doesn’t strip away some kind of psychological comfort cushion and pours a cold bucket full of reality on my head; but I wouldn’t have it any other way.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#45776 - 12/30/10 06:35 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Asmedious]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
All this talk of Satanism as this 'thing' out there that needs our support or contributions simply rings hollow to me. Always has.

Satanism is something I do, for my own reasons. Why the hell should I care what others are using it for? Do I care what others that buy a power drill or a hammer are building with them? Not at all.

Sure, it's sometimes useful to see what others methods are, or casually converse about things you might share in common with someone that just so happens to share your same Satanic predisposition, but does that mean I am invested in every tom dick and harry just because they like the same label that I do?

Absolutely not.

If 'Satanism' as a cause or movement or phenomenon 'out there' just blinked out of existence would I miss a step? Sorry, but no.

Don't get me wrong, I am not speaking against those that choose to educate others about Satanism or exchange ideas or do the philosophy of it in a public way,as I am obviously here too,I just think those that tend to treat doing so as some sort of imperative have missed a very important point.
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ADM
ideological vandal

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#45777 - 12/30/10 06:59 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Dan_Dread]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
This is an interesting topic and this answer will be general and not directly meant for any one response.

The main topic was meant to be the idea that someone has to produce something to advance Satanism. For what? To be considered a true Satanist perhaps? I know that some of you think, hey that Insane guy was the one who once argued for this behavior. Let me explain. I do not believe that any Satanist should strive for this as a goal in itself. I think however that there is a difference between any individual Satanist and any organization claiming to be part of Satanism. An organization that clearly, in one way or another by its very existence, wants to manifest a current within Satanism. And to be sure Satanism do experience different currents with fads moving in and out of it field of perception.

As an organization I do believe that to not be meaningless you almost have to produce materials in regards to advancing Satanism. In this case its perhaps more common in the form of putting forth the required tools for the members to develop. Perhaps one could argue then that the advancement of Satanism isn’t the goal in itself. However the result is just that.

On a purely subjective level I wouldn’t want to be connected to a stagnant movement which Satanism has become in some of its manifestations. Like the bible thumper we see the individual Satanist being totally stuck in the past trying to make his points valid by quoting another mans words like they were holy. I thrive on change and new perspectives which is why I wish to see Satanists produce new material on the very subject of Satanism itself. This is to develop an interesting intellectual movement which has the possibility to bring forth a lot of new concepts. Its no requirement but for me subjectively I thrive when I can search deeper and deeper and find new interesting material being produced.

It is also interesting that the people who often show the most Satanic, creative and unique attitudes are the ones most heavily critzised by other Satanists. There is almost a kind of orthodoxy in Satanism where certain words and certain concepts or likings are almost treated as taboos. These truly individualist thinkers, who conform to no set boundaries in their thinking, are often regarded as heretics of sorts in relation to what some call “true Satanism”. Traditional LHP’ers used to strive to blur the lines of everything and realizing the interconnectedness of all. This in practice lead to them being outcasts because they are free, or strive to be free, from limitations – not just from labels but also from everything else.

I do think that the person who does choose to present his or her ideas actively are the persons that, at least ideologically, are the most impressive and knowledgable. This is only natural since ideas get refined and tested when coming into contact with other ideas. How well anyone can put them into practice is another thing entirely. This also comes with a good sense of debate. The person who debates without considering the other persons arguments, the person who already knows before the debate has started, is the ones who will never develop and be open and truly see and learn. Which brings me to the ridiculous point that no Satanist can be “true” if he or she isn’t self employed. There is nothing preventing a Satanist to conform if it serves his or her goals. However the Satanist should be aware of what he or she does and why. This is unfortunately a tendency I feel with American Satanists in general. They tend to, in many ways, judge someones success or failure in the image of money and possessions. It is said that a Satanist accepts all of man as he is but somehow the emotional life often tends to take a backseat in reasoning about success and failure in favor of things that mean little or nothing unless you are actually happy in your situation.

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#45778 - 12/30/10 07:14 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: TheInsane]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1724
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Which brings me to the ridiculous point that no Satanist can be “true” if he or she isn’t self employed


Your point is valid.
I do my best to clarify that most of the views that I express are in relation to my personal standing and how I judge MYSELF as a Satanist.

I should have stated that I was referring to myself as not feeling as a completely self actualized Satanist as long as I am working for someone else.

This is not to say that I do not have opinions about other people’s version of their Satanism, however I am much less judgmental about them then I am about myself.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#45779 - 12/30/10 07:55 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I agree that if you start an organization, it is a given that you add something to it. It is outright silly to start something which does nothing but bring existing material to the table because that just shows your organization is pretty irrelevant to begin with. Which explains the rise and fall of the multitude of churches and temples I've seen.

On a personal level, it is obvious that a philosophy which is based upon heterodoxy is in constant change. When the matrix changes, the Satanist changes with it. But I personally don't necessarily think too highly of creativity because very often what others call being creative or advancing Satanism is nothing but dumbing it down. Satanism isn't an easy path to follow and a part of it is failing. You can only know your limits when you fail to go beyond them. But many do not actively seek their limits and find it much easier to set the standard at what they are. As such they can still pretend to be without having to do the actual effort or verifying it for themselves.

I also don't think Satanism should equate financial success or a certain financial position. When it comes to being financial successful, I do think there are other religions that have higher numbers of those. We do what we do for a reason and in the end, if we're shoveling shit or leading a company doesn't make much difference.

At least not to someone like me who knows that gathering certain experiences requires a certain detachment.

D.

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#45780 - 12/30/10 08:01 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Jason King]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
600 is an awe-inspiring manifestation in and of itself. But that recasts the original question slightly. Why do you wear it as a badge of honor?


For the same reason I wear other badges and honors. It makes the statement - "I am not like you and you may never be like me."

The true practitioner stands apart from his fellows. There are very few of 'us.' As Jake points out, being successful (however you may define it) and living to your own liking is the surest way to define yourself.

The Overman is unconcerned by the bleating of sheep or the advancement of causes. Either you are with us or you are not.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#45784 - 12/30/10 09:46 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Fist]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Fist
 Quote:
600 is an awe-inspiring manifestation in and of itself. But that recasts the original question slightly. Why do you wear it as a badge of honor?

For the same reason I wear other badges and honors. It makes the statement - "I am not like you and you may never be like me."

Well, from this conversation I'm beginning to think that what the 600C really needs is its very own button (like those which were all over the 1960s). As in overheard at one of the Cal Berkeley VDC antiwar riots: "Here, stab him with your peace button!"

But a 600C button can't just say "600"; it has to have a catchy phrase. In my collection, for example, are:

GUESS HOW MANY DONUTS WILL FIT ON MY DICK

OH SHIT, YOU'RE GOING TO TALK TO ME, AREN'T YOU?

YOU MAY KNEEL, BUT NO EXCESSIVE GROVELING

- and my favorite for parties -

SMILE IF YOU AREN'T WEARING ANY PANTIES

So you see: this is an art form, and perhaps what you need is a contest to come up with the most sublime 600C button. [Then you can even have it stamped out in the white/blue/green/red colors for additional occult prestige. ] I can see these eventually being pirated on eBay for $100s, with the villain in Dan Brown's next novel wearing one ...
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#45793 - 12/31/10 09:54 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
Why settle for a button? A shirt that is especially designed for you, the way you want it, perhaps? Hmm, might be something to this yet.

On to topic...
Personally, I don't see a need to publicly call out my Satanism. I try to do things through out my day that best suites me and mine and from my understanding of Satanism, that's what it should be. I know it's reflected by the things I say and do, and that's what IS important to me. In due time I'll reach my own personal goals, but in the mean time I have to make due with what I can do and continue to grow and learn along my way.

For those that feel a need to announce theirs publicly, more power to ya. It can be fun to be the "leader of the pack". Just remember, for every big dog out there (or wolf if you prefer) there are 1000's of fleas just waiting to latch on for the ride or to suck you dry. I think that's what keeps me from wanting that "lime-light" all together. The fleas get tiring and I know that from experience, even before I realized I was a Satanist.

Coming to the 600C was what I needed, to rekindle my own train of thoughts, my learning, my drive. I stay because many of the things I read challenge me. I'm grateful to the person that introduced me to the 600C, more than I'll ever be able to tell him. I had become very stagnant after a long period of really growing, reading, and letting go of the dogma that my folks had tried to place upon me. I post, not for acceptance (although that can be quite gratifying), but so that I can push myself to learn more, to keep me honest with myself and to see where I can improve my own stances and sometimes even change them. I really don't have time to post to many other forums, although there was a time I did. Now, here, it's when I can or when I need to unwind from the "norm" and all it's dogmatic BS.

Change does occur, but it shouldn't be that the basics should be forgotten or tossed aside. The basics of Satanism is what makes it unique from any other philosophy, belief system, or life style. If someone sees being at the public forefront as their way of working out their Satanism, then have at it. I don't feel a need to follow, by any means. I broke the chains that made me follow anyone or anything long ago and I have no intentions of letting them become tangled with others again.
_________________________
If only just for today.....

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#45796 - 12/31/10 11:09 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Satanism is something I do, for my own reasons. Why the hell should I care what others are using it for?


Why? Because you are here, "caring what others are using it for". And not only are you here, you are actively engaging in at least three other Satanic media as well. Whatever else you want to say about it, that means you give a fuck.

JK
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#45798 - 12/31/10 11:26 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: Jason King]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
This place is a crucible for the development of weapons-grade ideas for personal growth, not some circle-jerk group for establishing a majority opinion. If people visit other sites as well, that is their business, and it's probably in the interest of extending their scope, learning more about different theories and practices and so forth.

Why you choose to ascribe to everyone the quaintly RHP notion of caring what others think about you as a person is beyond me. Caring about the ideas of others is useful.

Understand this: when I have promoted an idea, I have expected it to come under criticism. It is why I promoted it in the first place. If any half-assed idea I put forth is instantly accepted and made gospel, I need to find a more hostile forum. I don't post to make people agree with me, but to remove what is unnecessary. If I can't hold on to an idea after it has been criticized, I should abandon it.

It all depends on how much you rely on the ability of others when they attack your ideas. In here, I find people with the ability to cut to the chase almost immediately, and I owe them respect and gratitude for debating my ideas.

Caring what people think about me is another thing entirely.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#45799 - 12/31/10 11:49 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
If an idea is solid, it will withstand criticism.

I grew up spending time with older people and a nasty but rewarding side–effect of it was that whenever you uttered something ridiculous, which is an unavoidable part of being a juvenile twat, you could almost guarantee someone putting that idea down like a cripple horse. For those getting emotional when they get ridiculed on-line, imagine it to happen in reality where there is no log-out feature. The advantage of it is that you not only grow some skin, you at the same time grow a brain. You learn the rewarding aspect of thinking your ideas through before you share them with others.

The best part of this place is that it does the same. I prefer being polite but when something is crap, saying it is crap is the best route to take. Still, many are not here to have their ideas criticized, they just want to be liked. The only advice I can give them is that if they want to be liked, just buy a dog.

D.

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