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#45745 - 12/29/10 05:39 PM Brownie points
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
There's some strange phenomena going on which I have a hard time understanding; the idea that one has to do something for the advancement of Satanism.

Now mind you, I'm all fine with people putting their ideas out there, in whatever form, even when I not necessarily agree with them. If that's what they want to do, fine to me. But what I don't understand is why suddenly it is almost worn as a badge of honor. I think there is a difference between doing something and wanting others to be thankful for it. It almost feels as if a Satanist should be obliged to contribute to Satanism. Like good disciples spreading the message which, in a strange way, turns selfishness almost into a sin.

I'm not targeting at anyone specific, I see that sentiment more and more out there and I find it rather strange.

D.

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#45746 - 12/29/10 06:01 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Diavolo]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I use Satanism to "advance" myself; Satanism is about me. While I too am fine with people adding their own ideas to Satanism (as long as they aren't trying to change it into something completely different) I see no "cause" to further; nothing to advance.

I think the best way to "move Satanism forward" is the successful application of the principles. Satanism is a tool to be used to advance the self; not the other away around.


Edited by 6Satan6Archist6 (12/29/10 06:02 PM)
Edit Reason: context
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#45748 - 12/29/10 06:09 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

I think the best way to "move Satanism forward" is the successful application of the principles. Satanism is a tool to be used to advance the self; not the other away around.


Yep. I've always felt that the best way to "advance Satanism" is to be everything they think it's NOT. They expect to see the loud, heavy metal, HAIL SATAN screaming, doped up, under or UNemployed clowns that we're portrayed as. When they meet a well spoken, successful and relatively friendly man who can speak well about Satanism, and at the same time be professional and else-wise well read, it shakes their world just a bit from the smug certainty that there's nothing serious to worry about.

The best revenge is in living well. Who'd have guessed that the best offense is as well?
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#45749 - 12/29/10 06:30 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Diavolo]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: New York
There are those who seem to feel that Satanism deserves to be taken seriously and to be given courteous consideration by those who do not participate in it. Frankly, I am not certain why they have this desire to be so well understood.
I believe that if Satanism was widely accepted it would eventually cease to be Satanism and would be a watered down philosophy more in tune with beliefs such as Wicca.

I believe that it is not Satanism that needs to earn the respect of those outside of it, but it is up to each individual Satanist to earn such respect on their own standing as an indivdual person if it is what they desire.

For example instead of seeking acceptance by a community of people for being a Satanist, the practitioner might consider that they would benefit more by building up their individual identity.
A successful attorney, doctor, medic, father, mother, and teacher can do much more for a particular cause and would deserve a considerable amount of more respect then an individual who only has to offer a self claimed title as a Satanist, while they offer nothing else of a useful substance.

Satanism in itself is not worthy of respect and consideration, but instead it is the Satanic practitioner and their personhood with their achievements behind it that deserves said respect and consideration.
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#45750 - 12/29/10 06:49 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Asmedious]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious

A successful attorney, doctor, medic, father, mother, and teacher can do much more for a particular cause and would deserve a considerable amount of more respect then an individual who only has to offer a self claimed title as a Satanist, while they offer nothing else of a useful substance.


Give that man a cigar. BULLSEYE.
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#45751 - 12/29/10 07:17 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Jake999]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
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Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
I can only echo the sentiment, not because I feel it justifies my existence or vindicates my choices in the eyes of the 'faithful', but quite simply because I'm not some parody of a black metal musician, struggling to be more 'tr00' than the next band.

I can understand that some people conceive of Satanism as some great cause to be furthered or pinnacle of creation - believe me, I really understand - but that's not what it ever was for me.

Why should I apply for permission to call myself something I know is accurate? Is there some higher authority whose acceptance I require? I don't mean to tear someone down with this, and I know some people put a lot of stock in the opinions of others regarding their convictions, but I'm not one of them.

As for my own accomplishments; there are those who know me, and they probably have an opinion of them. That is fine. All that matters is that I keep adding to them, regardless of whether I am a king or a pauper.
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#45752 - 12/29/10 07:42 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3883
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
People are so stuck in RHP methodology that those that see Satanism as a movement or some cause to be submitted to are inevitable. Most are conditioned, or naturally tend to, look outward and project outward. To be a cog, rather than the whole machine.

Surprising? no. Only very rare minds tend to invert this paradigm. Until the day enthusiasts of Satanism do not outnumber the Satanists themselves I would imagine the imaginary 'satanic movement' game will continue to have participants.
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#45753 - 12/29/10 09:39 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Dan_Dread]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
General reply,

People only do what people want to do, some aspire to become surgeons while others assassins. It is only human nature to want to be accepted to become greater than the rest and rise above, to become the next best thing, to be remembered, to become famous.

The need for acceptance varies differently among all humans. Most want his or her way to be the correct and proper way, therefore any acceptance can boost this feeling of being correct. I see this as having little to do with RHP teachings and all to do with human nature.

I know my way is correct for me and I don’t have anything to prove to anyone. Should anything in my belief system need advancement or change well that’s up to me to decide.

With that being said bring on the next Anton LaVey, PDV and Peter Gilmore wannabies. It is usually a good laugh reading “What have you done for Satanism” anywhere and whatever follows.

Asme's spot on! ;\)

~T~
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#45756 - 12/29/10 10:25 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: ta2zz]
JWG Offline
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Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 68
Like it is said, Satanists are born. To me, the philosophy of Satanism for me has been a journey to look at all the bullshit I have been fed and conditioned to believe/accept that controls me.

It is only after we become conditioned and told who we should be by the mass of external influences growing up when we turn into that dogmatic, lacking of imagination, sheep of an individual. Satanism, for me, has been a liberating thing. Helping me to shed that externally-influenced sense of self and rebuild one from within-out, and to no longer let things hold me back. Sin, objective morals, are just a few easy ones to use as examples, and very superficial at that.

What is funny is so many people look at Satanism, and see something odd or unnatural, evil. When in reality, what is odd is staring at them in the mirror.


Edited by JWG (12/29/10 10:28 PM)
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#45758 - 12/30/10 07:34 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: JWG]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't think people are necessarily a Lavey wannabe for expressing their own ideas. In the end, there is little difference between having your opinions scattered all around on forums or packed together in a book. And for Gilmore wannabees, I'd still need to meet the first that regards him as an idol or role model. The guy is so embarrassing even his shadow feels uncomfortable.

I can't say I never have toyed with the idea of compiling some views but I never could answer the "why" question. And as long as I don't find a reasonable answer to that, doing anything else seems like a better idea but I don't think less of those that find a reason. Even when it leads to abominations like Blackwood.

But I only wondered about the brownie points.

D.

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#45759 - 12/30/10 09:36 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: Diavolo]
Jason King Offline
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Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Now mind you, I'm all fine with people putting their ideas out there, in whatever form, even when I not necessarily agree with them. If that's what they want to do, fine to me. But what I don't understand is why suddenly it is almost worn as a badge of honor.


Satanism has a better than average noise-signal ratio. Either considering it as a philosophy or as a religion. In fact I think one would be hard-pressed to find a worldview with as much "background noise," pound for pound, as Satanism.

When I began to incorporate the concept of "manifesting" within my view of Satanism, it was proactive and resulted from my understanding of exactly what The Current is. However, as I've come to interact with more Satanists over time, what I've discovered is that this can almost be viewed as a litmus test of sorts. Those who manifest their Satanism (and I hold Michael Ford as a personal role model in this regard) tend to be the only sane heads in the room.

There are doers and talkers (forgive the obvious irony here), and despite protestations to the contrary, Satanism has not been capable of cutting off the dead wood in any meaningful way. It has almost become an albatross of sorts. And I do realize that many would rejoin with a hearty "so what?," or "who cares?". And yet, these same people are here. Those very same people who protest that their Satanism needs no manifestation outside of their (invariably extremely well to-do) lives are still bothering to take the time to post to a forum and manifest their Will.

This is in no way intended to be a slight on 600, far from it. 600 is an awe-inspiring manifestation in and of itself. But that recasts the original question slightly. Why do you wear it as a badge of honor?

JK
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#45760 - 12/30/10 10:16 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: Jason King]
William Wright Offline
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Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Nashville
Good topic. I will say that for me, Satanism is not a badge of honor. That is to say, I don’t go around touting how Satanic I am, whatever that means. Nor am I on any self-appointed mission to spread the message of Satanism. By the same token, I am not ashamed to be a Satanist; I share my thoughts on the matter when I feel the time is right. To me, being a Satanist is as natural as being a white guy. It is who I am, and it “manifests” itself in what I say and do throughout the day.

I do not post here to earn brownie points. Why would I care about impressing a bunch of strangers? I post because it is a learning experience. As I interact with others, I get a clearer sense of how I am progressing and how I am fucking up. I keep coming back here because I think it is in my best interest to do so. The day I think otherwise is the day I leave.
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#45761 - 12/30/10 10:36 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: Jason King]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think someone's Satanism is above all manifested in their lives since the obvious emphasis, to me, is upon that. As such, I see gathering personal experience as the only worthwhile endeavor. Like I said, I don't necessarily see contributing to the satanic pool of knowledge as a silly idea but in the end, it is just that; adding a certain perspective.

You are correct that sharing an opinion here isn't too different from writing a book or making a video when it comes to manifesting but it is not the sharing or adding I am wondering about as is the addition of that to some list of accomplishments. It's almost as if importance is derived from these additions. And it leads to these strange questions like "What are you doing to manifest Satanism?

Which leads to this imaginary form of Satanism, clearly visible today on the Internet; like a World of Satanscraft, where many try to make up for a clearly mediocre life. Of course it has always been like this and to many Satanism has always been some sort of emotional escapism to feel mighty in their own heads without it necessarily having any correlation with the actual situation in their environment. Still, during the last years it seems to escalate and there's some imaginary community in which it isn't any longer about the actual quality, as importance has shifted to quantity. What you do doesn't matter as much as that you do.

About the badge of honor question. I can't say I feel I wear anything I do here as a badge of honor and you may correct me if I'm wrong. I speak my mind if I feel like it but at no point I think someone should consider me as terrible important for that. I prefer a life in the shadows so wearing anything shiny tends to ruin that.

D.

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#45764 - 12/30/10 11:23 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: Diavolo]
Jason King Offline
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Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
About the badge of honor question. I can't say I feel I wear anything I do here as a badge of honor and you may correct me if I'm wrong. I speak my mind if I feel like it but at no point I think someone should consider me as terrible important for that. I prefer a life in the shadows so wearing anything shiny tends to ruin that.


Here's the point, of all the things you could be doing with your time . . . you choose to be here. You choose to engage other minds in exchange. And the same goes for all the "names" on 600. There's an old saying that "for every finger you point, there's three pointing back at you." If you choose to question the "good-guy badge" of manifestation, I ask: why do you manifest? Do you find your contributions unimportant? I don't. I happen to enjoy your (Diavolo's) posts on 600 more than just about anyone's. Does that make you "terribly important"? No. But it makes you someone who understands that Satanism has a "release valve".

What is being railed against here? "Manifestation" means (at least to me) that Satanism must be a productive philosophy. Without that, it becomes the biggest "kick me" sticker that you could possibly tape to your own backside. Do you deserve "brownie points" for manifesting? Of course not. But I would hold that you deserve recognition from your brethren. And whether or not you realize it, you've received as much on 600. This means that you are more in tune with the counter-position in your OP than you may realize . . .

JK
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#45765 - 12/30/10 11:40 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: Jason King]
Diavolo Offline
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I think there's a difference between someone doing something and being of the opinion since they do something, they are more important. The fact that some might like my contributions here (and as many do probably dislike them) doesn't make me feel more important.

D.

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#45767 - 12/30/10 12:46 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Diavolo]
Diavolo Offline
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Maybe to clarify it a bit more; to many of us the on-line aspect of Satanism isn't really important since it is only a minor part of what we call being satanic. It, of course, fulfills an evident need and can be an appropriate tool but, at the level of importance, the real emphasis is at our lives.

What I point at is the noticeable shift in emphasis where the on-line aspect becomes the major part of certain people's Satanism.

D.

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#45771 - 12/30/10 03:59 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Jason King]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
Those very same people who protest that their Satanism needs no manifestation outside of their (invariably extremely well to-do) lives are still bothering to take the time to post to a forum and manifest their Will.


The only point that I've attempted to make with regard to your thoughts on this is that people 'manifest' (or become what they are) in different ways. I come here because I learn from others and, on occasion, I feel I can offer clarity to a discussion or two. The greater balance of my life is focused off of the internet in trying to build my vision out there in the OU (and in developing perspectives to keep my SU as sharp as possible).

"Extremely well to do" is something I'm aiming for, but have yet to attain (by my standards anyway). The point is, that's where the thrill of the hunt is for me. It makes me no less 'satanic' that I choose to keep my internal philosophies largely private. My intent is to 'manifest' in a way that leads to tangible assets while developing the acumen (via applying satanic principles) necessary to get me there.

In here, I can wear that as a badge of honor, in a way, because I'm among people who understand it for what it is (second nature to most who find themselves here).

Regarding brownie points...

There are those out there trying to build a satanic persona for intangible reasons largely, and tangible reasons secondarily. The goal, it appears, is to become widely known as a satanist. For the most part, I see these people as clowns.

There are some, though, who I think represent their own authentic 'manifestation' via the communication of their ideas and thought processes to others (ie, they learn as they teach). I would put LaVey in this category as well as Dr. Aquino and quite a few others including (as it appears to me now) yourself. I might be wrong, but it does appear to me that your public persona is a genuine portrayal of who you are. Which is, in effect, a long winded way of saying that I don't think you represent the demographic Diavolo was alluding to (though you might to him).

If I had to name names ... I could \:\)
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#45772 - 12/30/10 04:01 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Diavolo]
Draculesti Offline
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Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
D, if I understood your OP, I think This is particularly germane to the discussion at hand. ASL said it best:
 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey
Satanism is the only religion which serves to encourage and enhance one’s individual preferences, so long as there is admission of those needs. Thus, one’s personal and indelible religion (the picture) is integrated into a perfect frame. It’s a celebration of individuality without hypocrisy, of solidarity without mindlessness, of objective subjectivity. There need be no deviation from these principles. They should summarily negate internecine strife and bickering. Any attempts at Satanic “reformation” should be seen for what they are: creating problems where none exist. There should be no place in any religion for reformers whose very religion is the fetish of reformation. There is even a place and title for compulsive dissidents, and if they can wear the mantle, they are welcome. They would delude themselves to be revolutionaries. In our camp, they are called “House Masochists.”


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Maybe to clarify it a bit more; to many of us the on-line aspect of Satanism isn't really important since it is only a minor part of what we call being satanic. It, of course, fulfills an evident need and can be an appropriate tool but, at the level of importance, the real emphasis is at our lives.

What I point at is the noticeable shift in emphasis where the on-line aspect becomes the major part of certain people's satanism.



While many do choose to be here, something should be said of the amount of time spent here, which you pointed at in your last post. We have certainly had the case here of certain members living out their "Satanism" entirely on here. Those who are "doing" likely spend the least amount of time here. Just because I choose to be here, it doesn't mean that this is the extent of Satanism in my life.
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#45773 - 12/30/10 04:53 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Fnord]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
I might be wrong, but it does appear to me that your public persona is a genuine portrayal of who you are. Which is, in effect, a long winded way of saying that I don't think you represent the demographic Diavolo was alluding to (though you might to him).


I wasn't including Mr King in my critique indeed. Although I do know little about him besides what is presented on-line, it at least is obvious he is intelligent and knows what he is talking about. If I might have given the impression I was including him, I apologize for that.

D.

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#45775 - 12/30/10 05:39 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Jason King]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: New York
 Quote:
There are doers and talkers (forgive the obvious irony here), and despite protestations to the contrary, Satanism has not been capable of cutting off the dead wood in any meaningful way. It has almost become an albatross of sorts. And I do realize that many would rejoin with a hearty "so what?," or "who cares?". And yet, these same people are here. Those very same people who protest that their Satanism needs no manifestation outside of their (invariably extremely well to-do) lives are still bothering to take the time to post to a forum and manifest their Will.


I can freely admit that in some sense I recognize myself in the above paragraph, and not in a positive sense.
I find that although I believe that I have a decent understanding of what Satanism is, and represents I have a very difficult time applying it to my life in a way that I find satisfactory.
In other words I could talk with someone for hours describing what kind of a person a Satanist is, and what kind of a life they lead, but if one would observe my life objectively they could call me a hypocrite and possibly have a valid argument against my claim of being a Satanist.

For instance it is my firm belief that for one to be a Self Actualized Satanist they would have to be financially self reliant. This would preclude anyone who earns a living by working for someone other then themselves, because in my opinion on cannot truly be who they are if they are following the rules and regulations of others for 40 hours a week just to make a living.

Because of either life circumstance, lack of intelligence, or will, I fall into that later category. Although I do not depend on hand outs or the good will of others for my survival, I do in fact have to eat a shit load of crow and do things that I would rather not do in order to earn a living. To me that is very un-satanic, and it is something that I have been trying to change for most of my life.

On the other hand what I do see as Satanic in me is the ability to see and admit where I fall short, as well as being able to draw a line as to how much I allow myself to be manipulated by the “outside” world, and be able to admit at least to myself when I am being manipulated instead of making up excuses and self delusions to being in total control all of the time.
My Satanic personality is also often validated by those who are not even familiar with Satanism when they express their views of me. When one of my patients in the spirit of levity started to refer to me as Lucifer and the nick name stuck I took it as a kind of affirmation to my beliefs and actions and quite enjoy it. I do not need such outside affirmations, but non the less I do like them.

Coming to the 600 club for me is in no way an attempt (that I’m aware of) to “Manifest” my will.
This place is my personal decompression chamber of sorts. It is a place where I feel that I can come and be among people who share a large portion of my views. That is something that I cannot find in the outside world.
Before the age of the internet I thought that I was some kind of a freak of nature because of the way my mind worked and for some of the feelings, or better yet, for some of the LACK of feelings and emotions that I had. Reading the Satanic Bible did give me the sense that at least one other person thought like I did, but it almost seemed as if Anton and I were pretty much the only ones. Even when I joined earlier Satanic forums such as “Ltts,” I felt like a big chunk of “something,” was missing. After awhile I felt like an outsider there as well.

600 so far is the only place where I feel as if there are people who truly share in the foundation of my views. Sure, there are time when even the people that I respect the most here go off in a direction that I cannot relate to at all, or the subjects they talk about are way over my head. However that doesn’t take away from the fact that in general I feel totally “in tune,” with them.
Being a human being with human needs, one tends to seek out those they can relate to. If it cannot be found in the “real world,” then cyber space has to suffice.

Satanism isn’t something that I chose for myself because it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy or because it makes me feel in some way superior to others. On the contrary it seems to have chosen me. I find being a Satanist to be damn difficult, because it makes me my own worst critic and it doesn’t allow me to delude myself in any way. As a matter of fact not a day goes by that it doesn’t strip away some kind of psychological comfort cushion and pours a cold bucket full of reality on my head; but I wouldn’t have it any other way.
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#45776 - 12/30/10 06:35 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Asmedious]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Posts: 3883
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All this talk of Satanism as this 'thing' out there that needs our support or contributions simply rings hollow to me. Always has.

Satanism is something I do, for my own reasons. Why the hell should I care what others are using it for? Do I care what others that buy a power drill or a hammer are building with them? Not at all.

Sure, it's sometimes useful to see what others methods are, or casually converse about things you might share in common with someone that just so happens to share your same Satanic predisposition, but does that mean I am invested in every tom dick and harry just because they like the same label that I do?

Absolutely not.

If 'Satanism' as a cause or movement or phenomenon 'out there' just blinked out of existence would I miss a step? Sorry, but no.

Don't get me wrong, I am not speaking against those that choose to educate others about Satanism or exchange ideas or do the philosophy of it in a public way,as I am obviously here too,I just think those that tend to treat doing so as some sort of imperative have missed a very important point.
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#45777 - 12/30/10 06:59 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Dan_Dread]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
This is an interesting topic and this answer will be general and not directly meant for any one response.

The main topic was meant to be the idea that someone has to produce something to advance Satanism. For what? To be considered a true Satanist perhaps? I know that some of you think, hey that Insane guy was the one who once argued for this behavior. Let me explain. I do not believe that any Satanist should strive for this as a goal in itself. I think however that there is a difference between any individual Satanist and any organization claiming to be part of Satanism. An organization that clearly, in one way or another by its very existence, wants to manifest a current within Satanism. And to be sure Satanism do experience different currents with fads moving in and out of it field of perception.

As an organization I do believe that to not be meaningless you almost have to produce materials in regards to advancing Satanism. In this case its perhaps more common in the form of putting forth the required tools for the members to develop. Perhaps one could argue then that the advancement of Satanism isn’t the goal in itself. However the result is just that.

On a purely subjective level I wouldn’t want to be connected to a stagnant movement which Satanism has become in some of its manifestations. Like the bible thumper we see the individual Satanist being totally stuck in the past trying to make his points valid by quoting another mans words like they were holy. I thrive on change and new perspectives which is why I wish to see Satanists produce new material on the very subject of Satanism itself. This is to develop an interesting intellectual movement which has the possibility to bring forth a lot of new concepts. Its no requirement but for me subjectively I thrive when I can search deeper and deeper and find new interesting material being produced.

It is also interesting that the people who often show the most Satanic, creative and unique attitudes are the ones most heavily critzised by other Satanists. There is almost a kind of orthodoxy in Satanism where certain words and certain concepts or likings are almost treated as taboos. These truly individualist thinkers, who conform to no set boundaries in their thinking, are often regarded as heretics of sorts in relation to what some call “true Satanism”. Traditional LHP’ers used to strive to blur the lines of everything and realizing the interconnectedness of all. This in practice lead to them being outcasts because they are free, or strive to be free, from limitations – not just from labels but also from everything else.

I do think that the person who does choose to present his or her ideas actively are the persons that, at least ideologically, are the most impressive and knowledgable. This is only natural since ideas get refined and tested when coming into contact with other ideas. How well anyone can put them into practice is another thing entirely. This also comes with a good sense of debate. The person who debates without considering the other persons arguments, the person who already knows before the debate has started, is the ones who will never develop and be open and truly see and learn. Which brings me to the ridiculous point that no Satanist can be “true” if he or she isn’t self employed. There is nothing preventing a Satanist to conform if it serves his or her goals. However the Satanist should be aware of what he or she does and why. This is unfortunately a tendency I feel with American Satanists in general. They tend to, in many ways, judge someones success or failure in the image of money and possessions. It is said that a Satanist accepts all of man as he is but somehow the emotional life often tends to take a backseat in reasoning about success and failure in favor of things that mean little or nothing unless you are actually happy in your situation.

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#45778 - 12/30/10 07:14 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: TheInsane]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Which brings me to the ridiculous point that no Satanist can be “true” if he or she isn’t self employed


Your point is valid.
I do my best to clarify that most of the views that I express are in relation to my personal standing and how I judge MYSELF as a Satanist.

I should have stated that I was referring to myself as not feeling as a completely self actualized Satanist as long as I am working for someone else.

This is not to say that I do not have opinions about other people’s version of their Satanism, however I am much less judgmental about them then I am about myself.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#45779 - 12/30/10 07:55 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I agree that if you start an organization, it is a given that you add something to it. It is outright silly to start something which does nothing but bring existing material to the table because that just shows your organization is pretty irrelevant to begin with. Which explains the rise and fall of the multitude of churches and temples I've seen.

On a personal level, it is obvious that a philosophy which is based upon heterodoxy is in constant change. When the matrix changes, the Satanist changes with it. But I personally don't necessarily think too highly of creativity because very often what others call being creative or advancing Satanism is nothing but dumbing it down. Satanism isn't an easy path to follow and a part of it is failing. You can only know your limits when you fail to go beyond them. But many do not actively seek their limits and find it much easier to set the standard at what they are. As such they can still pretend to be without having to do the actual effort or verifying it for themselves.

I also don't think Satanism should equate financial success or a certain financial position. When it comes to being financial successful, I do think there are other religions that have higher numbers of those. We do what we do for a reason and in the end, if we're shoveling shit or leading a company doesn't make much difference.

At least not to someone like me who knows that gathering certain experiences requires a certain detachment.

D.

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#45780 - 12/30/10 08:01 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Jason King]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
600 is an awe-inspiring manifestation in and of itself. But that recasts the original question slightly. Why do you wear it as a badge of honor?


For the same reason I wear other badges and honors. It makes the statement - "I am not like you and you may never be like me."

The true practitioner stands apart from his fellows. There are very few of 'us.' As Jake points out, being successful (however you may define it) and living to your own liking is the surest way to define yourself.

The Overman is unconcerned by the bleating of sheep or the advancement of causes. Either you are with us or you are not.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#45784 - 12/30/10 09:46 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Fist]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Fist
 Quote:
600 is an awe-inspiring manifestation in and of itself. But that recasts the original question slightly. Why do you wear it as a badge of honor?

For the same reason I wear other badges and honors. It makes the statement - "I am not like you and you may never be like me."

Well, from this conversation I'm beginning to think that what the 600C really needs is its very own button (like those which were all over the 1960s). As in overheard at one of the Cal Berkeley VDC antiwar riots: "Here, stab him with your peace button!"

But a 600C button can't just say "600"; it has to have a catchy phrase. In my collection, for example, are:

GUESS HOW MANY DONUTS WILL FIT ON MY DICK

OH SHIT, YOU'RE GOING TO TALK TO ME, AREN'T YOU?

YOU MAY KNEEL, BUT NO EXCESSIVE GROVELING

- and my favorite for parties -

SMILE IF YOU AREN'T WEARING ANY PANTIES

So you see: this is an art form, and perhaps what you need is a contest to come up with the most sublime 600C button. [Then you can even have it stamped out in the white/blue/green/red colors for additional occult prestige. ] I can see these eventually being pirated on eBay for $100s, with the villain in Dan Brown's next novel wearing one ...
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#45793 - 12/31/10 09:54 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
Why settle for a button? A shirt that is especially designed for you, the way you want it, perhaps? Hmm, might be something to this yet.

On to topic...
Personally, I don't see a need to publicly call out my Satanism. I try to do things through out my day that best suites me and mine and from my understanding of Satanism, that's what it should be. I know it's reflected by the things I say and do, and that's what IS important to me. In due time I'll reach my own personal goals, but in the mean time I have to make due with what I can do and continue to grow and learn along my way.

For those that feel a need to announce theirs publicly, more power to ya. It can be fun to be the "leader of the pack". Just remember, for every big dog out there (or wolf if you prefer) there are 1000's of fleas just waiting to latch on for the ride or to suck you dry. I think that's what keeps me from wanting that "lime-light" all together. The fleas get tiring and I know that from experience, even before I realized I was a Satanist.

Coming to the 600C was what I needed, to rekindle my own train of thoughts, my learning, my drive. I stay because many of the things I read challenge me. I'm grateful to the person that introduced me to the 600C, more than I'll ever be able to tell him. I had become very stagnant after a long period of really growing, reading, and letting go of the dogma that my folks had tried to place upon me. I post, not for acceptance (although that can be quite gratifying), but so that I can push myself to learn more, to keep me honest with myself and to see where I can improve my own stances and sometimes even change them. I really don't have time to post to many other forums, although there was a time I did. Now, here, it's when I can or when I need to unwind from the "norm" and all it's dogmatic BS.

Change does occur, but it shouldn't be that the basics should be forgotten or tossed aside. The basics of Satanism is what makes it unique from any other philosophy, belief system, or life style. If someone sees being at the public forefront as their way of working out their Satanism, then have at it. I don't feel a need to follow, by any means. I broke the chains that made me follow anyone or anything long ago and I have no intentions of letting them become tangled with others again.
_________________________
If only just for today.....

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#45796 - 12/31/10 11:09 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Satanism is something I do, for my own reasons. Why the hell should I care what others are using it for?


Why? Because you are here, "caring what others are using it for". And not only are you here, you are actively engaging in at least three other Satanic media as well. Whatever else you want to say about it, that means you give a fuck.

JK
_________________________



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#45798 - 12/31/10 11:26 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: Jason King]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
This place is a crucible for the development of weapons-grade ideas for personal growth, not some circle-jerk group for establishing a majority opinion. If people visit other sites as well, that is their business, and it's probably in the interest of extending their scope, learning more about different theories and practices and so forth.

Why you choose to ascribe to everyone the quaintly RHP notion of caring what others think about you as a person is beyond me. Caring about the ideas of others is useful.

Understand this: when I have promoted an idea, I have expected it to come under criticism. It is why I promoted it in the first place. If any half-assed idea I put forth is instantly accepted and made gospel, I need to find a more hostile forum. I don't post to make people agree with me, but to remove what is unnecessary. If I can't hold on to an idea after it has been criticized, I should abandon it.

It all depends on how much you rely on the ability of others when they attack your ideas. In here, I find people with the ability to cut to the chase almost immediately, and I owe them respect and gratitude for debating my ideas.

Caring what people think about me is another thing entirely.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#45799 - 12/31/10 11:49 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
If an idea is solid, it will withstand criticism.

I grew up spending time with older people and a nasty but rewarding side–effect of it was that whenever you uttered something ridiculous, which is an unavoidable part of being a juvenile twat, you could almost guarantee someone putting that idea down like a cripple horse. For those getting emotional when they get ridiculed on-line, imagine it to happen in reality where there is no log-out feature. The advantage of it is that you not only grow some skin, you at the same time grow a brain. You learn the rewarding aspect of thinking your ideas through before you share them with others.

The best part of this place is that it does the same. I prefer being polite but when something is crap, saying it is crap is the best route to take. Still, many are not here to have their ideas criticized, they just want to be liked. The only advice I can give them is that if they want to be liked, just buy a dog.

D.

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#45803 - 12/31/10 01:04 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: SkaffenAmtiskaw
Why you choose to ascribe to everyone the quaintly RHP notion of caring what others think about you as a person is beyond me. Caring about the ideas of others is useful.


Although it may be somewhat off-topic, I would hold that this is not "rhp," rather it is human nature. I never made the argument you're countering, but in any case, in an anon exchange, the idea is the person.

JK
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#45804 - 12/31/10 02:18 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Jason King]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Of course caring what others think is a part of human nature but let's not forget there is an opportunistic side to it.

When doing a job, I do care what others think of me, especially those that pay the money. As such, it is in my best interest to do a decent job and have them think I am a nice guy. It of course doesn't imply I really care what they think; I am only manipulating the situation in my favor.

I also interact with a lot of people I despise but they do like me. I do my best to make them like me and invest the required time listening to their sad stories and even giving good advice. At some levels I do not differ much from a social worker but when you look behind that facade, you'd see only one mechanism at work; their money getting into my pocket. Again, caring what others think in a purely opportunistic perspective.

When interacting on-line, we of course do also care what others think of us but again, I do think the why is more important. When taking that video of the biker gentlemen as example (and I do like bikers, I even mostly look like them), many of the people that think great of him, probably do so because he made "fuck you" about fifty % of his little rant. I hardly could care about people that would think I'm great or cool because I say fuck you a lot. Admit, it does't really take much effort to do so.

I'd rather have people thinking good of me because I posses certain qualities or there is some quality to what I do. Most likely people that enjoy it are those having the same qualities or standards. I'd call them peers. And even to this is an opportunistic side; because they share similar qualities, you can count on them to do to you what you would do to them.

Which again is a superb benefit.

D.

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#45805 - 12/31/10 05:03 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Jason King]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3883
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Satanism is something I do, for my own reasons. Why the hell should I care what others are using it for?


Why? Because you are here, "caring what others are using it for". And not only are you here, you are actively engaging in at least three other Satanic media as well. Whatever else you want to say about it, that means you give a fuck.

JK



 Originally Posted By: Me, in that same post

Don't get me wrong, I am not speaking against those that choose to educate others about Satanism or exchange ideas or do the philosophy of it in a public way,as I am obviously here too,I just think those that tend to treat doing so as some sort of imperative have missed a very important point.
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ideological vandal

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#47234 - 01/23/11 09:31 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
Read a bit trough the entire topic and I have to say I had a moment of "finally" upon reading your very first post D.

What I quite liked to see were some people who already used the excuse of flipping the "I added towards.. and therefor am more then.."-card trying to apologize themselves.

As far as I am concerned, calling yourself a Satanist can be seen as a badge of honour on the condition a person managed to stick towards the ideas and principles untill the final breath. It's also the final line wherein any depth or wisdom can be gained. (What good is it to say you are living a Satanic life and have "tutored" many people in the sinister way if you have plenty of lifetime ahead wherein you can fuck-up anyway?).
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#47243 - 01/23/11 12:21 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Dimitri]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
But what I don't understand is why suddenly it is almost worn as a badge of honor


Probably because there is some void in them they're not able to fulfill on their own. Needing to define themselves and failing to do it the badge fills the gap...

I'm not a Satanist, I'm Unspeakable!

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#47244 - 01/23/11 12:33 PM Re: Brownie points [Re: Dimitri]
Lamar Offline
member


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
As far as advancing Satanism goes, for myself, it's not so much advancing a cause. But rather it's rational self interest. I advance my goals and accomplishments. As Asmodeus pointed out, Satanism is hard. I am my own worst critic. I know that it is up to me to make my life better for myself. It is hard at times to apply certain principles and methods to better myself. Often times I fall short of that mark. Sometimes I could have practiced a little bit more, or should have put forth a little more effort, or should have watched what I said. But, I can only learn from that.
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#47348 - 01/25/11 11:57 AM Re: Brownie points [Re: Lamar]
thedeadidea Offline
member


Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 209
Satanism is what Satanism does, I view any work I identify as 'satanic in nature' for myself or labour that I view benificial as a learning curb to 'further Satanism.' I dont necessarily ascribe any objective notion of progression to it but I see it no more unreasonable then the assumption the progression of technology and science will somehow better society.

It isn't a sollipcistic cop out that 'it is just my opinion' persay as I think the 600 club as much as anything else furthers Satanism. In the sense that it is a place for me to trial my ideas and learn something but I do not ascribe altruistic motives to all concerned that they provide this dialogue or this service merely to appease me or anyone else other then their own selves in doing this. So in that sense I would ascribe some notion of social progression of Satanism where a number of individuals are engaged on a particular project they all see some value in.

This does not mean Satanism itself has improved but merely an oppurtunity has been presented to the individual. There was a one liner in a forum post elsewhere.

"The Satanic Movement is staring back at you from the mirror. Enjoy the ride!"

I think that is the most apt basis for describing any function of Satanism. But to describe any activities involving more then one person in most context beyond a social interaction is most probably mistaken.

Other works taken on by individuals be they literary or otherwise that others see value in I would again ascribe the same scenerio of the notion of progress being solely concerned with those that find values in the ideas.


Edited by thedeadidea (01/25/11 11:59 AM)

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