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#45885 - 01/03/11 04:10 PM "Satanism in Two Paragraphs"
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
There is a rather good site by a Laveyan Satanist based in Britain called Vexen Crabtree, who probably is unknown in American circles, but is going to be the individual I promote on my own sites for those interested in Laveyan Satanism. My question relates to his definition of Satanism, I quote:

 Quote:
"Satanism is a ferocious religion based on materialism, the empowerment of the self and the ego, the carnal realities of animal life, the questioning of social taboos, the ridiculing of most other religions, and the promotion of tough social justice. Satan is not real but is the most ideal and accurate symbol of reality and nature: The world is full of violence, suffering, stress, striving and death - the life cycle itself requires all these things. It is clear that no symbol of 'goodness' or 'light' can embody it all. The vast, uninhabitable darkness of the Universe, with galactic cataclysms rendering huge destructions on huge scales, means that only Satan can embody the true state of everything that is. Satanists tend to use all the symbols of darkness and evil. There is no heaven, no hell, no afterlife, no angels or demons: there are no gods or saviours apart from ourselves. But if there was a god, it would surely be utterly evil.

The Church of Satan was founded in 1966 by Anton LaVey and as of 2001 its Black Pope has been the powerful and articulate Peter Gilmore. Satanism as religion is highly skeptical, rationalist and philosophical, demanding evidence and strong argumentation, but is otherwise open-minded on magic and some parts of the supernatural. Satanists are often bold, intelligent, demanding; but are also often subtle, cautious, hidden, while others still are outrageous, aggressive, angry and puzzling. It is a religion of fire, drama, depth and forceful progress."


Would you consider these above paragraphs by Vexen Crabtree sum up Satanism from a Laveyan point of view?


Edited by mabon2010 (01/03/11 04:10 PM)
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#45888 - 01/03/11 04:41 PM Re: "Satanism in Two Paragraphs" [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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I think most of us that have been around for a while are familiar with Vexen, at least familiar with what he does. His sites are on the Internet as long as I can remember.

I'm not a Laveyan but I'd say it is pretty accurate when describing Laveyan Satanism although I'd certainly drop the word powerful in context with Gilmore unless there is evidence or a strong argumentation for that. ;\)

D.

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#45890 - 01/03/11 05:51 PM Re: "Satanism in Two Paragraphs" [Re: Diavolo]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Yeah. Vexen Crabtree has been around long enough that most people have heard of him, I would suppose. And while I might not agree 100% with his assessments on LaVeyan Satanism, I see them as a lot less objectionable and sometimes even more insightful than many I've seen on the web.

Gilmore... Power... I've seen little to link the two, but the man has the suit.
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#45902 - 01/04/11 05:59 AM Re: "Satanism in Two Paragraphs" [Re: Jake999]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356

I think he has a point but at the same time misses the target. The problem I often have with dualistic word views is the division they make between good and evil. For me Satanism was always about accepting it all. Total affirmation (Nietzsche). So while the world is indeed full of violence, suffering, stress, strife, destruction and death it is also full of peace, happiness, calmness, compassion, creation and life. And they all depend on each other in a polar duality.

I think he is still somewhat stuck in the notion of Satan as something evil and something to be connected with only “violence, suffering, stress, striving and death”. Now maybe he gives a more detailed explanation elsewhere that says otherwise, its been years since I read his site, but judging from the quote in the first post I think he tends to focus to much on not accepting anything that Christians might accept as well.

To me Satanism should be a way to step away from the western religious mindset. To throw away the coin of duality altogether and build something new. But it does seem to me that to many self-professed Satanist wont agree and instead live as a reaction to the Christians that surround them.

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#45903 - 01/04/11 08:11 AM Re: "Satanism in Two Paragraphs" [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
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Good is Derived from Evil: Satanic Theory

D.

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#45904 - 01/04/11 09:07 AM Re: "Satanism in Two Paragraphs" [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo


While I understand what he's aiming at he is still trying to equal evil with carnality, self-interest, materialism etc (even though he also writes about subjectivism he immediately falls back into calling things good and evil).

To me he seems to be way to stuck in the terminology and perhaps even the mindset of the current religious paradigm that he really should strive to overcome.

I would personally never call any of the things he lists as evil as actually being evil. I think the labeling of things as good and evil shows an attitude that is still in some way accepting the Christian definitions of the words.

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#45905 - 01/04/11 10:51 AM Re: "Satanism in Two Paragraphs" [Re: TheInsane]
manofsteel Offline
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Registered: 05/08/10
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Loc: Indiana U.S.
I have read quite a bit of Vexen's theory's on the web and have to agree with you. A lot of it seems pretty doom and gloom. He talks a lot about good deriving from evil and celebrating death as the end with a certainty of no afterlife. There may be truth to it all I just don't like how he puts his theories as the definitiions of Satanism on his sites. For someone new to it I will say though his sites are pretty informative and gives other sites to go to for more information as well.
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#45909 - 01/04/11 12:08 PM Re: "Satanism in Two Paragraphs" [Re: mabon2010]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
But if there was a god, it would surely be utterly evil.


As others have pointed out, this perspective is too subjective.

I'd say that if there were a God, it would be perfectly balanced in creative and destructive force. Some would inevitably term parts of that 'good' and parts of that 'evil'.

 Quote:
...otherwise open-minded on magic and some parts of the supernatural.


I don't like the term 'supernatural' as it suggests (often in certain terms) the existence of something outside of 'nature'. As defined by us, 'nature' is what we are equipped to perceive it to be (via normal cognitive/sensory methods). There could very well be natural things that we cannot perceive, but calling it 'supernatural' is a potential misnomer as we're essentially saying in doing so that we are the center of the universe and that which we cannot perceive is something that is not natural. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

 Quote:
Would you consider these above paragraphs by Vexen Crabtree sum up Satanism from a Laveyan point of view?


Back with your boxes I see. You should ask the C/S this question... aren't they the 'authority' on what is and isn't LaVey in origin and nature?

You will continue to find difficulty in pinning things down here at 600C as most who post here are always challenging paradigms and shifting viewpoints. If it's dogma and/or a set of rules that you seek you are not likely to find it here unless you take what is offered in opinion and use it to draw your own lines around things.
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#45910 - 01/04/11 02:17 PM Re: "Satanism in Two Paragraphs" [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
I think the labeling of things as good and evil shows an attitude that is still in some way accepting the Christian definitions of the words.


I think we should not be bothered too much about christian definitions of words or concepts because if we are desperately trying to eradicate those from our language, what we actually show is how much they still affect us. When embracing Satanism, it is partly embracing our culture, which is, inevitably, loaded with the results from a christian dominance.

When we understand life is conflict and fully embrace it as such, what we do, to many, is embrace evil. Even when we know there are two sides to the coin, others will not interpret it as such, or we can not escape giving a dualistic impression when using language to describe it. It should not matter either because we do understand what we imply and so do those that we converse with. The others are of little concern.

As such, we can freely use evil or good when describing something without thinking we commit a sin.

We know better, don't we?

D.

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#45912 - 01/04/11 02:34 PM Evil [Re: Diavolo]
Aklo Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
I've seen a lot of confusion and unstructured thinking about Evil. This even includes some remarks by Dr. Lavey to the effect that "good is whatever I like, and evil is what I don't like." I think this kind of vague thinking is unhelpful, and it's degrading the use of a perfectly good word in conflict with better insights like the one about how "evil" spelled backwards is "live". So, I'm going to pass on something I've learned, to the best of my ability:

People say that good and evil are opposites, but, they are just wrong.

It's good and bad that are opposites, and they are relative. What's good for me might well be bad for you. But evil? O, EVIL!

Evil is good and bad mixed together in such a way that they can't be separated; and you have to take the bad with the good. And that's art! And that's life ...

Evil, which is to say, anything seen clearly, can be thought of as a knife. The handle represents the good, the blade bad. In any situation, you need to seize hold of the good and turn the bad away from you. If you have hold on the handle, and cut away from yourself with the blade, you aren't going to get hurt. Someone else might, but they should learn not to stand in your way, shouldn't they?
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#45914 - 01/04/11 03:11 PM Re: Evil [Re: Aklo]
FlameReborn Offline
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Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 36
Loc: SPFLD,OH,USA
In my life I have seen the word Evil me a whole host of different things, many of them contradicting each other. Some people consider being gay/lesbian evil (my old church friends did.) some consider kids games like Yu-gi-oh, or Poke'mon as path ways to evil occult practices, like tarot reading. Some consider Metal and Hard Rock evil. Marilyn Manson was at the top of my list, but for my parents he was a warden of hell on earth. The list goes on and on.

Some seriously believe Obama to be the anti-Christ. My guess of what evil is, is what Anton Stated about goodness in the Book of Satan.


"Is it right for enemies to do good to one another? And what is Good?"

What is evil? True Evil? Besides the obvious social no-no's like Rape, Abuse, Child molestation things that bring harm and pain to (potentially) innocent people. But sometimes I don't think the word evil could best fit that category of social deviance.

FRB~


Edited by FlameReborn (01/04/11 03:13 PM)

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#45918 - 01/04/11 03:57 PM Re: Evil [Re: FlameReborn]
Aklo Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
 Quote:
What is evil? True Evil? Besides the obvious social no-no's like Rape, Abuse, Child molestation things that bring harm and pain to (potentially) innocent people. But sometimes I don't think the word evil could best fit that category of social deviance.

Yep, this is a good example of why I feel the transcendent definition is better. Fucking little tiny tight fresh sweetness, is good. Hurting people dependent on you and betraying the trust of the young and misusing power, is bad. Child abuse is evil.

Conquering your enemy is good. Being conquered is bad. War is evil. Constructing as many more examples as are necessary to fully understand the point, may be left as an exercise for the adept.
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Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#45920 - 01/04/11 05:59 PM Re: "Satanism in Two Paragraphs" [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I think we should not be bothered too much about christian definitions of words or concepts because if we are desperately trying to eradicate those from our language, what we actually show is how much they still affect us. When embracing Satanism, it is partly embracing our culture, which is, inevitably, loaded with the results from a christian dominance.

When we understand life is conflict and fully embrace it as such, what we do, to many, is embrace evil. Even when we know there are two sides to the coin, others will not interpret it as such, or we can not escape giving a dualistic impression when using language to describe it. It should not matter either because we do understand what we imply and so do those that we converse with. The others are of little concern.


Well, I just don’t agree with Vexen since he seems to take the Christian definition of the word evil and apply it to his own system. A system which I think exists in many ways to transcend that very Christianity. I see no reason why I should accept the Christian definition of evil and let that define what I am. As a Satanist the goal is to transcend, destroy the old and create something new in the moral realm. That’s the way I see it anyway. Personally I rarely use evil at all in my everyday language. In many ways I feel that the word is to strong or to diffuse to be able to be used in a good way.

On the debate of what evil is I remember when I was in my mid teens and was doing a school work on one of the more charismatic Christian churches in my area. I asked them about evil and hell and what it actually was. At the time I expected a very literal answer but the answer I got was that “evil and hell is the absence of God”. So yeah, according to that definition I would be part of evil and hell. However there is no reason why I would accept their definition of the word when I do not accept the world view from which the definition sprung from. Heck, since I am an Atheist I regard everything to be absent of God and thus everything is evil which makes the concept obsolete anyway.

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#45922 - 01/04/11 07:31 PM Re: "Satanism in Two Paragraphs" [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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I think it is rather difficult to create something new in the moral realm without using the words good and evil or right and wrong. We could of course create new words but they'd just be replacements for the old, indicating we're still talking about similar things. As long as there is morality, these concepts will exist. As such, it matters little which we'll use.

We all know everything happens only for one reason; necessity. Ranging from the most heart-warming to the most atrocious act; necessity is the only cause. And still, while we realize it, we can't deny that our personal interpretation of them, especially when it affects us, divides those into this duality. We humans can not escape this duality, this feeling of right or wrong, good or evil.

All we can do is define them according to our necessities.

D.

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#45923 - 01/04/11 07:37 PM Re: "Satanism in Two Paragraphs" [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Satanism in one sentence, from MY pov -

Autotheism through adversarial manifestation.

Everything else is just gravy.
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