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#45961 - 01/05/11 11:10 PM Re: Pathworking [Re: Diavolo]
Aklo Offline
member


Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
 Quote:
I call memetics memetics and manipulation, manipulation because in the end, that's what it is to me.

Why don't you just call your aggressive Atheism "aggressive Atheism" then? If all you "believe in" is science, why isn't the description "scientist" enough?

 Quote:
I don't do magic myself and don't try to describe something else as such.

What do you think magic is? Saying that magic is the contents of dusty old tomes, and not the manipulation of the mind by means of archetypes, is much like saying music is those strange wedged shape designs in the songbook, and not the beautiful sounds coming from the speakers.

 Quote:
Others use psychedelics in a similar manner or even tribal dancing.

Use of psychedelics and dancing to manipulate the mind are magickal techniques and invariably include the evocation of archetypes in their road to success. Whether these are very effective techniques is subject to great debate. What they are techniques of is understood by everyone in the debate though.

 Quote:
But when it comes to real world success, I do think all those dusty tomes and occult grimoires are rather irrelevant, and at some level, and this is purely a logical conclusion, affirming inferiority. I see it as a hobby, that's it.

All hat, no rabbit. Why are you carrying this gun, if you don't believe in bullets?
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Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#45963 - 01/05/11 11:40 PM Re: Pathworking [Re: Aklo]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Last I knew Atheism was about not believing in gods so the question seems strange.
Maybe for a Laveyan magic is a must but to me, it is quite irrelevant.

To me, psychedelics are not magickal techniques, neither is tribal dancing. In the days of yore it might have been considered magick, but in those days, even the rising sun was magical. I also don't go to work in my iron carriage which is driven forth by the force. If others prefer to color their world, let them.

Look;

Group A does apply magic and successfully gains worldly success.
Group B, which is far greater, applies magic too and fails at gaining worldly success.
We could conclude that group A knows what they are doing while group B are amateurs.
But group C, which is the far greatest group doesn't know a thing about magic or isn't interested at all and they still do gain worldly success.

Of course we could suggest group C is, unknowingly, applying magic and thus succeed.
But if we'd do that, we could also replace magic with gods assistance or touched by the force. It would not matter.

All that matters is that group A and group C accomplish their goal and that magic might not be the source but most likely, qualities that both groups posses. However, since group A has to rely on magic to accomplish the same, they seem to be inferior to group C which don't need anything at all. To them, their own qualities suffice.

I could of course be totally wrong and you may point out if so. Until, I see magic as a hobby with little relevance.

Why carry bullets if there is no gun?

D.

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#45972 - 01/06/11 10:09 AM Re: Pathworking [Re: Diavolo]
JysusCryst Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 21
Loc: Iraq
What I interpret Aklo as saying is use Lesser Magic, i.e. manipulation, to obtain what you want.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Group A does apply magic and successfully gains worldly success.
Group B, which is far greater, applies magic too and fails at gaining worldly success.
We could conclude that group A knows what they are doing while group B are amateurs.
But group C, which is the far greatest group doesn't know a thing about magic or isn't interested at all and they still do gain worldly success.


Group A has to consciously apply magic to obtain their goals.
Group B attempts and fails at it.
Group C doesn't have to consciously apply lesser magic, either it comes naturally or they already have the appropriate archetype to achieve their goals.

Group A could also be using Greater Magic, though I don't (personally) see the need to do so.

_____

On a personal note, I've never really viewed Lesser Magic as "magic" at all, just applied psychology.


Edited by JysusCryst (01/06/11 10:54 AM)
Edit Reason: Grammer
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"Learn to value yourself, which means: to fight for your happiness" - Ayn Rand

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#45974 - 01/06/11 10:32 AM Re: Pathworking [Re: JysusCryst]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: JysusCryst

On a personal note, I've never really viewed Lesser Magic as "magic" at all, just applied psychology.


By George, I think he's got it!!! LaVey wrote to his audience in terms that would be familiar to them and in concepts, sometimes metaphors, that they could relate to. Those who might be most amenable to the budding Church of Satan often spoke in such terms as magic and metaphysics.

It's akin to a heart surgeon speaking to two audiences. To his learned colleagues, he might speak of a myocardial infarction, and they would understand. To his audience of laymen, heart attack would suffice.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#45981 - 01/06/11 11:34 AM Re: Pathworking [Re: JysusCryst]
Aklo Offline
member


Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
 Quote:
What I interpret Aklo as saying is use Lesser Magic, i.e. manipulation, to obtain what you want.

Yes, very good!

But there's a little more to it than that, of course. (The devil is in the detail.)

 Quote:
On a personal note, I've never really viewed Lesser Magic as "magic" at all, just applied psychology.

"Just" applied psychology !?! The secret key to every religious and scientific and magickal advance in all of human civilization, and you say it's just applied psychology. Sure it is, man; but the word "magic" is better because it's more impressive and less trite. When I get what I want, by covert means that hardly anyone understands, means that made Diavolus pick a "religion" even though he insists that he's effectively not religious -- let's call it Magic. It works like a charm! Yeah?

 Quote:
Group A does apply magic and successfully gains worldly success.

Good so far? In my music example, these are the people who study notation while playing the instrument, and get good at it.

 Quote:
Group B, which is far greater, applies magic too and fails at gaining worldly success.

They aren't really applying it. These would be people who can read music, but don't actually practice. They could follow along in the songbook, but when they go to actually play, they sound like those kids whose piano lessons are wasted.

 Quote:
But group C, which is the far greatest group doesn't know a thing about magic or isn't interested at all and they still do gain worldly success.

Lots and lots of musicians can play some songs they like and even compose free-hand, without any knowledge of musical notation at all. And the really great ones can read it, but don't waste much brain on it because they can play well without thinking about the "Music For Dummies" aspect anymore.

The old grimoires aren't the key to magic, they are just someone else's crib sheet. The important stuff isn't in the cheat sheet, just the stuff that's arbitrary and less-used and harder to memorize.

 Quote:
Group A could also be using Greater Magic, though I don't (personally) see the need to do so.

Lesser Magic is the actual work, programming others. Greater Magic is self-programming. The main purpose of ritual is to put yourself into a state where glamour comes more naturally. A good way to think of this might be, moving yourself from Group A to the best version of Group C, a benefit of extended and experimental practice.

First control your own mind; then controlling others will be easy.

The ambition of Napoleon and Caesar pales before that which could not rest until it had seized the minds of men and controlled even their unborn thoughts ...
-- Robert W Chambers
_________________________
Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#45983 - 01/06/11 11:46 AM Re: Pathworking [Re: Aklo]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Again, we're creating a bubble here. If it comes natural to many and they don't need to call it magic or resort to GBM self-programming, those that do are holding on to straws instead of relying on their own potential.

Mind you, I understand that others might desire to glamor up the natural. I just don't feel the need. To me, magic is akin to Dumbo's feather. I can fly without.

D.

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#45999 - 01/06/11 04:49 PM Re: Pathworking [Re: Diavolo]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
Perfect, on another note I just want to say I feel that if good luck or great things come to you easily than you are a lucky one. I have been lucky in the past and then reality and life smacked me in the face harder than hell, and a lot more then once. I will just say that I am a much better person living through the things I did than had I not. My understanding of lide and people and what I am reallly made of is more apparent to me and I know where I stand. I love and protect family "which includes my best friends". Everyone else either likes me or don't and that is my life. Love it or hate it I don't care. I would still love to win the lottery though.
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Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#46011 - 01/06/11 06:31 PM Re: Pathworking [Re: manofsteel]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
We are all probably better off for the things that we have done than not done. \:\)

And wouldn't we all love to win the lottery? I think the first thing I'd do is take my kids to the store and let them pick out the one thing they've always wanted but I couldn't get. \:D
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http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#46054 - 01/07/11 11:13 AM Re: Pathworking [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
I think the first thing I would do is find an island and buy it. I would be my own government and noone could influence my family but myself. That could be scary but at least if it fails it is all my fault.
_________________________
Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#46068 - 01/07/11 01:40 PM Re: Pathworking [Re: Diavolo]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Again, we're creating a bubble here. If it comes natural to many and they don't need to call it magic or resort to GBM self-programming, those that do are holding on to straws instead of relying on their own potential.

Mind you, I understand that others might desire to glamor up the natural. I just don't feel the need. To me, magic is akin to Dumbo's feather. I can fly without.

You sound like me talking about 600C atheists using the term "Satanism" for the same reason. ;\) Glamorizing is, well, more glamorous.

 Originally Posted By: M.A.A., Black Magic
If one assumes that one is an independent entity moving about in the OU, and that one cannot merge one’s consciousness with it - that all attempts to do so are mere illusions and delusions - then one approaches the OU as a tool to be used for personal satisfaction. Natural/objective religionists are regarded as irrational, and natural/objective atheists are regarded as ignorant.

The non-natural/objectivist makes a careful study of the OU from his self-realized external perspective, and he includes in that study consideration for the subjective, metaphysical forces that influence human disposition and behavior (i.e. others’ SUs). He then applies his knowledge to entities and events in the OU and through this medium to others’ SUs, to control or at least influence events and perceptions in accordance with his will. This is defined by the Temple of Set as Lesser Black Magic (LBM).

It will be understood that competence in this art gives the practitioner enormous power to affect situations in ways that could scarcely be understood by those involved, even if they were aware of the various forces being brought to bear on them. It thus follows that rigorous education in ethics is an absolute necessity for would-be Black Magicians - else through ignorance, immaturity, or impulsiveness they bring about unjustified or even unnecessary damage or destruction. As has been noted, the OU is in a state of natural equilibrium, and any adjustment to it risks disrupting that equilibrium. Some adjustments are tolerable, and some are even beneficial. But some which seem positive at first glance may be harmful in a larger perspective, as in the extermination of “harmful” mountain lions which ultimately results in over-population and mass starvation of their natural prey.

The adept practitioner of LBM is thus not a crude predator; he is an adjustor, a manipulator, a meta-physician. He does not practice his art for petty egotism, but rather for the greater satisfaction he derives in the experience and exercise of his wisdom - which as a by-product invariably satisfies whatever material goals he may deem appropriate to the situation. (#6D, #6I, #6K, #6R, #6S, #23)

Thus LBM is significantly more than just tricking or deceiving or manipulating your way to a superficially-desired end. The Black Magician is in effect rearranging a given set of things in the OU - a sort of "Klein Bottle distortion" of normal equilibrium, which eventually settles into a new OU equilibrium.

And LBM is also aware of & sensitive to the fact that it is using OU tools to influence others' SUs, in this case their perceptions of the OU. This is why I use stage magic as an apt [and well-named!] illustration. If you just called it "stage sensory illusion", you'd be missing a key part of its reality.

Stage magic is "harmless" because its goals are just entertainments, and by its name it alerts the audience that they are going to be operated upon.

LBM takes on more serious & consequential goals, and doesn't reveal itself. [One of the big mistakes of PSYOP was its advertisement of its name & unit identities, duh. Now the Army is trying to close the barn door after everyone's left, but of course it's absurdly too late, duh again.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#46069 - 01/07/11 01:44 PM Re: Pathworking [Re: manofsteel]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: manofsteel
I think the first thing I would do is find an island and buy it. I would be my own government and noone could influence my family but myself. That could be scary but at least if it fails it is all my fault.

This has been tried before, which is rather an interesting story.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#46098 - 01/07/11 03:08 PM Re: Pathworking [Re: Aklo]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Aklo
"The real witches were sleeping with the executioners".


I just choked on my coffee. Dude, this is priceless - mind if I swipe it?
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An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#46101 - 01/07/11 03:12 PM Re: Pathworking [Re: Autodidact]
Aklo Offline
member


Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
 Quote:
mind if I swipe it?

Help yourself. I got it from LaVey's Bible though, so credit him (or whoever his source might have been?)
_________________________
Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#46171 - 01/07/11 08:10 PM Re: Pathworking [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Aklo Offline
member


Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
 Quote:
You sound like me talking about 600C atheists

I noticed that, and I was hoping you would step in and spread a little clarity. Thanks!

 Quote:
And LBM is also aware of & sensitive to the fact that it is using OU tools to influence others' SUs, in this case their perceptions of the OU. This is why I use stage magic as an apt [and well-named!] illustration. If you just called it "stage sensory illusion", you'd be missing a key part of its reality.

Stage magic is "harmless" because its goals are just entertainments, and by its name it alerts the audience that they are going to be operated upon.

LBM takes on more serious & consequential goals, and doesn't reveal itself.

Very good! This is part of why I don't like the Thelemite "Magick" affectation. The idea is to distinguish "real magic" from that of the stage, and I don't think that such a distinction is very useful. For me the difference between black magic and other kinds of tricks is much like the difference between prestidigitation and illusionism, or stage magic and street magic. In other words, it's all the same thing in essence, the difference is in the goals and circumstances. Arguing a real distinction would be stressing style over substance, in this sense.

When I read your fortune, I make a point of calling it a "card trick". The fact that it works itself, and requires only a good memory and a quick wit, doesn't really make it that different from most of the pure-presto card tricks I prefer. They are all like that!

The mind wants certain things. If you give it what it wants, you can get it to do amazing things. This is magic.

_________________________
Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#46970 - 01/17/11 10:36 PM Re: Pathworking [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
Yes I can imagine but hey, at this point maybe it can be an island for fun and carefree without any government and we can all have a ball. Just sounds good I guess.
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Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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