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#46477 - 01/10/11 07:42 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Nyte]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Nyte
7 times? I knew it was higher but didn't realize it was that high. I wonder how many are illegals, just out of curiosity. Do you have a link to those stats Autodidact?


I just grabbed numbers from here for the multiple: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#Population_statistics

NB: it's actually five times, not seven, which just goes to prove how badly math skills are declining in the US

Numbers should be easy to find. I seem to recall hearing somewhere that a good portion of the US prison population is due to things like drug sentencing and the three strikes laws ...
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#46479 - 01/10/11 08:07 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Personally, I don't like the idea of the State having the power to execute citizens. Govts historically abuse the powers granted to them by the people.

Rather, I would like to see greater empowerment of the individual. Right now, we have half a sandwich in the US. We have the right to keep and bear arms, but in most cases we lack the legal authority. An armed individual in the US is a great risk of civil and criminal legal action should he actual confront and kill an assailant.

Instead of giving further powers to the State, we should change the laws to give individuals much greater latitude in weapon selection, possession, and employment. Effectively, I would like to see every individual with the ability to employ force in a manner similar to what the police. Ultimately, I would like to see the Law and the individual morality of the average citizen (the jury pool) reflect the dictates of Lex Talionis, as opposed to Judeo-Christian thumbsucking.
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#46480 - 01/10/11 08:33 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Fist]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Fist
Personally, I don't like the idea of the State having the power to execute citizens.
[..]
Rather, I would like to see greater empowerment of the individual.
[...]
Ultimately, I would like to see the Law and the individual morality of the average citizen (the jury pool) reflect the dictates of Lex Talionis, as opposed to Judeo-Christian thumbsucking.


This seems a bit contradictory - a jury acts on behalf of the state.

Are you advocating a version of lex talionis wherein the average citizen is judge, jury, and executioner? No need for juries, then ...

Or are you suggesting that empowered citizens would be an effective deterrent, such that death penalty crimes would decrease?
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#46481 - 01/10/11 08:36 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Fist]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Fist

Instead of giving further powers to the State, we should change the laws to give individuals much greater latitude in weapon selection, possession, and employment. Effectively, I would like to see every individual with the ability to employ force in a manner similar to what the police. Ultimately, I would like to see the Law and the individual morality of the average citizen (the jury pool) reflect the dictates of Lex Talionis, as opposed to Judeo-Christian thumbsucking.


This, I could see, being a much more proficient deterrent to crime. In turn, I believe that like the CCW though, people should have to have thorough checks and balances to getting weapons. Not just any Walmart can sell a gun, but a licensed facility where people are trained to use a weapon properly.

I will say this. Because of what's been happening around here, I will be getting my CCW and purchasing a gun that I feel comfortable with. I'm done letting my family be an "open" target, especially with the changes that have occurred with our job situations. I'll be paying for my oldest to take a weapons class as well. It's time, and although I don't like it, I know when things have to change.


Edited by Nyte (01/10/11 08:37 PM)
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#46485 - 01/10/11 09:23 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Nyte]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
You (generic "you", as in "you all") should watch "Bowling for Columbine".

No, no, I know what you're thinking, but the movie actually comes out pro-gun (well, at least not anti-gun). Michael does take a long time to get there, though, so you have to sit through a bunch of boring, repetitive, seemingly-anti-gun bits. Put it on double- or quadruple-time play, and stop when you see Marilyn Manson.
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#46490 - 01/11/11 12:02 AM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Autodidact]
anseoasresere Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/03/11
Posts: 31
Loc: Massachusetts USA
i was on a conspiracy forum the day this happened and saw the events unfold. including seeing the person's youtube videos, and his posts on abovetopsecret.com . the guy was rambling about money and the NWO. (the links are at the bottom)

from my perspective the real issue is not some guy murdering a senator its the fact that for a day or two sarah palin had an image on her website featuring a map of the U.S. with crosshairs pointed at states with so-called "unamerican" politicians. this picture was taken down later that day.

basically the issue is how people are being brainwashed into becoming zealots for something that they dont really understand.

im only 21 so there are only so many election cycles i've seen but this last one was pretty much a joke. most rational people seem to realize this, and they are pissed off about it. the problem is that their way of dealing with it is to murder someone that is essentially a puppet.

all you have to do is look at a woman like sarah palin to realize the whole system is a sham. the fact that having a million dollars makes you a rich person (or 5 million as john macain said) is a bad sign because there are people out there have 500 million dollars. (like henry paulson)

granted, this has something to do with cleverness, and how they've set themselves up over time, but the more money you have the easier it is to have it grow. (and i realize "the harder they come the harder they fall, but...) the majority of people arent making more than $100,000 per year and its no wonder you have people gunning for politicians.

i would say you should look at the motives beyond this instead of just saying the person is a nut, because that is the obvious thing to do. its a lot harder to consider the reality of the situation.

the issue right now isnt a matter of left/right, because im sure the left will say he was a right wing fanatic "patriot" and the right will say he was a "loon".

and as far as executing someone, let the families decide. its not anyone elses place. but you also have to consider the parents of the person that did the shooting. being extreme just to prove a point is absurd. look at the present state of the world, all that will do is fuel the fire, more cannon fodder to prove that the NWO really is "satanic".


(if your interested in the links youtube "[guy's name] compilation" and go to abovetopsecret.com and search "erad3")

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#46491 - 01/11/11 12:24 AM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: anseoasresere]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Well, let's look at what we know about the guy:

Pot head drop out loser who was in enamored by a powerful central govt (seemed to hold Fascists and Communists in high regard).

Yep, sounds like your typical Republican!

He was a nut, plain and simple. Don't try to explain crazy.
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#46494 - 01/11/11 12:56 AM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Fist]
anseoasresere Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/03/11
Posts: 31
Loc: Massachusetts USA
have you listened to some of the republicans out there today? also, if he held fascists and communists in high regards then why would he bother killing some one that supports that agenda? and why would he murder a democrat?

 Originally Posted By: Fist
Well, let's look at what we know about the guy:

Pot head drop out loser who was in enamored by a powerful central govt (seemed to hold Fascists and Communists in high regard).

Yep, sounds like your typical Republican!



i dont know about the pothead part but if you substitute it for alcoholic/pill-freak its a dead ringer for the current image of republicans.

its hard to tell if you are being sarcastic...

in the end it doesnt really matter, its just a way for peacocks to show off their feathers.

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#46498 - 01/11/11 02:05 AM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: anseoasresere]
anseoasresere Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/03/11
Posts: 31
Loc: Massachusetts USA
i have noticed from watching his videos on youtube that it seems like the guy read R.D. Laing's book "knots".

and you were right fist, the guy was "involved" in the occult and apparently interested in vampirism. i didnt realize there was so much research on the guy. not typical "conservative" interests.

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#46803 - 01/14/11 05:06 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: anseoasresere]
BaronVonShankly Offline
member


Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 169
Loc: London
Has anyone seen the bbc horizon documentry done by michael portillo?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woBUtoh02ic

in fact the humane method they came up with was seen as bad due to "punishment having to hurt".

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#46810 - 01/14/11 07:08 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: BaronVonShankly]
Goliath Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 93
 Originally Posted By: BaronVonShankly
Has anyone seen the bbc horizon documentry done by michael portillo?


I've watched that documentary. I found it quite interesting--especially the death-penalty advocate's reasons for rejecting Portillo's suggestion. A good Christian attitude, in my opinion.

One doesn't have to be some kind of bleeding-heart to favour a humane method of execution. One merely has to recognize that death, by itself, is already a pretty severe punishment.

This was the position of the 18th-century Italian philosophe Cesare Beccaria in his very influential work On Crimes and Punishments, which inspired one of the goriest and most fearsome forms of execution in modern times: the guillotine.

Nobody would ever accuse the French Revolutionaries of being soft on crime. Yet the guillotine is arguably quite humane: the loss of blood pressure in an exsanguinating severed head must produce immediate unconsciousness.

One hears legends about heads remaining conscious after they've been severed, but I once checked into the most common story of this type--concerning tests on the head of a murderer named Languille--and discovered that the source provided was bogus.

In any case--it's the certainty of punishment that deters criminals--not its severity.

You can make punishments as gruesome and painful as you like, but people will still break the law if they're not convinced they're going to be caught and punished. If you look at British history, it was no coincidence that the same man who established the first professional police forces in London and Ireland--Sir Robert Peel--was also responsible for drastically reducing the number of death-penalty offences under British law.

Whatever we may think of Fist's proposed solution, it does seem to recognize this fact, and seeks to deter criminals by hardening the target, instead of making threats of punishment that may well turn out to be empty.
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#47341 - 01/25/11 10:33 AM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Goliath]
BaronVonShankly Offline
member


Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 169
Loc: London
I laughed when I saw someone on youtube ripping off portillo's suggestion and then getting all hurt when I accused them of plagurism for not naming their sources.
I was then refered to as a troll and was told by him he would not apoligise to me until I apoligised to him, I have no intention of apoligising.


Edited by BaronVonShankly (01/25/11 10:34 AM)

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#77480 - 06/27/13 02:28 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6873
Loc: Virginia
If the motivations for increased/updated executions is simply cost, you might want to do an actual cost-analysis of incarceration vs. the inevitable death sentence being carried out.

It sounds as if this is purely reactionary to the plight of complete strangers that you've never met, let alone forged a personal attachment to. People die all the time. The only reason this story struck a nerve was because it made headlines and played on your heart-strings. Sounds like a shitty tune to me.

"Mass-Shooting" is the new buzz word for crimes considered more heinous than others with no real regard for the people that were actually killed. They are merely symbolic of your own moral platitudes.

I suppose its rather easy to cast a pebble in a foreign pond when you have no real grasp of the Judiciary process (which includes corruptions therein).

As for whom deserves what, linguistically speaking you might want to understand what deserving something actually means, then address the context.

As for what perceived improvements it would make to humanity? Dubious at best. We kill, if the act is not performed with your own hand, you are committing the act by proxy...That's our humanity.
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