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#46302 - 01/09/11 04:21 PM Time to update exectution procedures in USA
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
I support executions.

The recent massacre in the USA highlights a need for the USA to update its procedures for executions.

Method : should be hanging.

Time : from sentence to execution one month.

Let the money that is wasted keeping these garbage alive for over a decade be better spent on the best lawyers for them so that justice is really served. One appeal within one week of the sentence and then sentence is carried out within three weeks after the appeal. With hanging multiple people can be hung at once to clear the backlog.

In the case of the 10-year-old who shot his mother dead in the USA, he and other children like him should also be executed. Age should not be a barrier to executions. In Britain we hung children for stealing a loaf of bread.

The last execution in Britain happened on 13 August 1964, about one month after the sentence on 7 July 1964.

It is time for USA to be tough on crime.


Edited by mabon2010 (01/09/11 04:23 PM)
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#46307 - 01/09/11 04:33 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think it is easy to support executions but everything is easy when you can have someone else do the job.

It would be much more interesting if they'd have a work-role for all that support it, so they can do the job themselves from time to time. I'd be curious how many would still support it when they'd have to hang a kid. And clean up the mess of course.

D.

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#46312 - 01/09/11 04:48 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Diavolo

Personally I would have no problems assisting. Question is it needs trained professionals who know what they are doing, since a novice like me would screw up and cause unnecessary suffering.

I see no difference in supporting executions in my name than those wars that send soldiers to kill in my name, to make me and my nation safe.
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#46313 - 01/09/11 04:55 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Yeah right, we all can do anything when it's in the abstract but I don't meet many that would actually say "Gimme the rope and I'll hang the little critter". Especially not when they are not personally and emotionally affected.

Most people I know have problems killing a mouse, let alone a bigger animal. Let's not even start about kids.

Soldier are not send to war in your name or to keep you safe. They are send there to serve the interest of the government. Your safety isn't much of an issue to them.

D.

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#46315 - 01/09/11 05:04 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Diavolo

Perhaps it is in the personality of the individul to put emotions aside and get on with the job they are allocated. There are former soldiers on 600Club who know the experience of setting aside their feelings and getting on with the job in hand. For the professional it is just a job, a nasty job, which they get on and do.

The Government act in my name, and I voted them in, Anything the Government decides is done in the name of the people, which happens to include me. This is why in America they have court cases of People v...

I agree that politicians act in their own interests, but officially all they do is done in the name of the people they serve.
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#46316 - 01/09/11 05:16 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Look, I will give you some good advice. Go to a farm and participate in the killing of their animals. Not the modern "humane" manner but the way they did it when I was young; the sledgehammer. Or start with little pigs. They were taken with their hind legs and smashed into concrete. I can tell you from experience that the first are not a fun experience, even when you put your emotions aside. Especially not when they tend to scream.

If you can manage that, ask anyone who has been in a war and had to shoot a kid, and if he did find that an interesting experience he would like to repeat.

In theory this all sounds easy and we all can do it without blinking our eyes but I'm pretty sure practice would make it feel quite different. And not many would stand in line for a rerun.

Personally I don't think you're up for it. If, you'd not be a Luciferian to begin with.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (01/09/11 05:18 PM)

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#46318 - 01/09/11 05:24 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Diavolo

I agree with you that death is an unpleasant and traumatic experience for all involved.

But we all are indirectly involved in the bloody slaughter of animals and in their deaths when we eat meat products produced on our dinner table. Someone has just killed those animals for us, and we supported them by buying their meat products.

You are correct that as a Luciferian I will have some interesting challenges, but in my path there are also ways to address those challenges.
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#46321 - 01/09/11 05:53 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Hanging would be a step backwards concerning methods of execution, not an "update".

The appeals process can take a very long time so to expect it to be done within a week is absurd. And many people feel that an expedited execution (hooray for alliteration) is too easy and would like to see the condemned suffer time in prison before reaching their ultimate destination. There is also the matter of wrongful convictions. Which do happen a lot more often than many people may think.

Children at that age will not be executed because they are not considered to be culpable for their actions. Though, it most instances, once someone reaches the age of 13 they can be tried as adult. This was a legislation introduced after the two kids shot up their classmates in Jonesboro, Arkansas some years back.

"Tough on crime" is nothing more than a phrase used by politicians seeking to be elected. The fact of the matter is that punishment for a crime is seldom a deterrent and people are going to do what they are going to do regardless of the consequences.

Just a few thoughts on the matter.
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#46327 - 01/09/11 06:15 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
Harvey Offline
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Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 39
It could be argued that America is tough on crime. If we apply the label of 'Terror' to a person's actions - and they seem to be popping up everywhere these days: Julian Assange, Anti-War Demonstrators and HO-MO-Sex-u-als [It's bad for the troops :D] for example - then we can skip the lengthy trials, motions, appeals, the burden of proof, and get straight to it.

Presumably there has been no serious crime in Britain since 1964? ;\)

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#46331 - 01/09/11 06:36 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ 6Satan6Archist6

In making my suggestions I am:

1. Adding some humanity to the execution process in the USA.
2. Making the execution process more efficient.
3. Addressing the weakness of potential miscarriage of justice by the USA providing a low quality public defender of the accused.

HUMANITY
The existing execution procedure which is lethal injection is cruel in my opinion. Hanging is quick, your neck is broken so you will feel nothing, then whilst unconscious you suffocate, with death within 20 minutes. No pain. Lethal injection is open to mistakes which could lead to suffering, though since the convict is paralysed their agony will not be apparent to the witness who sees them dying in apparent peace.

Having a convict in a living torment of a decade of more in a cell, with death always present, in solitary confinement, with no access to even proper sunlight is living torture.

Retribution is a major quality of American justice, and taking the life away from the convict is adequate enough punishment. Torture of a decade or more imprisonment is torture and unjustified.

EFFICIENCY
Keeping a convict in prison before death for a decade or more costs money, as does a lengthy and trivial appeals system.

The American public deserves swift justice for the convict at minimum cost to the taxpayer.

With lethal injection it is a slow complex system. The hanging process you could clear all of death row by multiple hangings at one time, like a production line, within a month or so.

JUSTICE
The American system provides low quality and poorly paid defenders for the accused. The money saved by cutting out the bullsh*t of multiple appeals and looking after a prisoner on death row for more than ten years can be thrown into the best defence team for the accused, who in the initial fight and the one and only appeal will give the prosecution an adequate enough fight to wipe out any flaws in the case. If the case is lost and the appeal despite top defenders being on the case, then in my opinion the case is proven and the convict dies within a month of sentence.

CHILDREN
Obviously I am not supporting the idea of executing children for trivial things like stealing a loaf of bread. I am talking about murder. That kid who killed his mother recently with a shot to the head knew what he was doing, aged 10, he had a dozen guns in his room; he had probably shot dead animals and seen what happens when guns are fired at people in television and cinema. The kid knows the effects of shooting a gun at another person. He is death sentence material. No mercy.

TOUGH ON CRIME
Execution in my opinion gets rid of bad material, it is not deterrent, more dealing with rubbish rather than wasting money on prison for them.



Edited by mabon2010 (01/09/11 06:38 PM)
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#46332 - 01/09/11 06:42 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Harvey

I am talking about the simple criminal justice system rather than the political bullsh*t that President Obama and associates indulge in.

Britain went soft in 1964 - terrible crimes have been committed and are being committed. Our weakness disgusts me.
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#46341 - 01/09/11 07:56 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
"Killing is killing whether done for duty, profit or fun." - Richard "The Nightstalker" Ramirez

If the execution is meant to be a punishment then why worry about whether or not it is "humane"? If I were to be a witness at an execution it would be because they wronged me and I would hope that the person did die in extreme agony and pain - preferably over a long period of time.

Death from hanging isn't always instantaneous or without suffering sometimes the neck doesn't snap immediately and death is caused by asphyxiation. Other times death results from the head being removed from the spinal cord, which some people have considered to be "inhumane".

Even if someone does have a really good legal team they can still get convicted. On the other hand they can also walk free What should matter in a case are the facts, regardless of how much someone is paying their attorney to present them.

The condemned are given the chance to seek multiple appeals for good reason, basically the idea is that once is not "good enough". I for one am thankful for this because it might work in my favor one day. And if you were wrongfully convicted of a crime, sentenced to death and only allowed one appeal, I am willing to bet that you would not quietly accept your fate.

I never said that the kid who shot is mother didn't know what they were doing all I did was explain the attitude some people when it comes to children being prosecuted. Personally, I believe that a 10 year old does indeed know what it means to take to a life and should prosecuted to the fullest extent.
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#46357 - 01/10/11 01:39 AM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
Nyte Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
Britain went soft in 1964 - terrible crimes have been committed and are being committed. Our weakness disgusts me.


Hmm, and you feel the need to tell the US how to change their own system?

Mind you, I don't like ALL of our current justice system, but there are reasons for it. I also don't go around telling other countries "how" to cure their own ailing systems either.

I agree Americans need to find a way to fix a good many things in our own system. I do, however, like the idea that we can "fight" for our lives should we be wrongfully imprisoned. A month may not be sufficient time to acquire all the evidence we need to clear our own name. That's been proven more than once, and because we do have the kind of system we have. You don't live here, so you haven't had the experience to pass such judgments on our justice system. I don't live in Great Britain, therefore, I WON'T pass judgment on your system.

If nothing else, take away a learning point from things many other countries, including the US, have done. Don't try to "fix" things for other countries that you know little to nothing about.

As for your comment about "getting on with the job"....I'd love to see you say that (or better yet, get on with the job) if it were your own child hanging from the ropes at only 10 years old.
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#46374 - 01/10/11 08:36 AM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1723
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Retribution is a major quality of American justice, and taking the life away from the convict is adequate enough punishment. Torture of a decade or more imprisonment is torture and unjustified.


Are you talking from experience? Have you ever watched someone you cared deeply about being brutalized and then murdered?
Personally I am lucky because nothing like that has ever happened to me, but if it did I can imagine that I would feel that "Torture of a decade or more imprisonment," would not be nearly enough.

In regards to people comparing the slaughtering of animals to executing violent criminals:

I'm one of those people that if given the opportunity, I will catch of fly and throw it outside rather then killing it. At work that's become a bit of a joke because I have actually grabbed fly swatters from people and put the offending bug outside. (Interestingly my Very Christian coworkers have often gone out of their way to step on a bug).

For me there is a huge difference between killing an animal vs killing someone who has purposefully caused great harm to others merely for the thrill or to satisfy some kind of need within themselves. Yet, I realize that somewhere deep inside of me there is something that has the ability to commit just about every kind of offense that has ever been commited.

Could I kill someone? To be honest, I donít know myself that well. In my mind I can clearly see myself being able to kill someone very slowly and painfully in the name of revenge for certain things and even enjoy it.
However, there is absolutely no way of knowing for certain, since Iíve never had cause to do such a thing.

I can also see myself pushed to a point in a war setting where I might commit all kinds of things that are considered atrocities, and still be able to live with myself afterwards.

BUT...realistically I know myself well enough that I am talking out of my ass since Iíve never purposefully hurt anyone. Ever. Quite the opposite actually. I am a strong believer in ďThe human contract,Ē and will go out of my way to help someone in need if I am able to, even putting myself at risk.

So could I kill someone whom I thought deserved it? I simply do not know. I hope that I could, but maybe I couldnít if it actually came down to it.
One thing I know for sure. If I couldnít do it, I would be very disappointed in myself afterwards.
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"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#46390 - 01/10/11 11:34 AM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Nyte]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Nyte

OTHER NATIONS
I am British and I am writing my opinion to an international Satanist forum. I am entitled to my opinions about other nations, just as you or anyone is about my nation. I am not telling your nation to do anything, if I was I would be going to the decision maker such as President Obama rather than 600Club.

Sure I am not American, and I only visited your nation once to meet Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse at Disney World as a child. I like America and Donald Duck. I think your execution system sucks, so I offer opinion and suggestions as an outsider.

Britain does have an investment in the execution industry of your citizens as we are supplying you with the drugs to kill them - 176 Horn Lane, Acton, London to be precise, along with helping people to drive safely.

If you feel I am still unqualified to pass judgement on your execution system then if you privatise it, I will invest in it, as I think with my efficiency improvements there is good money to be made in the killing machine of the American justice system.

CHILDREN
Your concerns that I would participate in the execution of my own child is a non-event. I won't be having any of those nasty creatures. Hail myself, there is no room for children in my devotion to my own legend.


Edited by mabon2010 (01/10/11 11:38 AM)
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#46397 - 01/10/11 11:43 AM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
You have to realize a couple of things about crime.

There are two major motivations in crime.

The first motivation has emotional roots: rape, murder, manslaughterÖ; all those pretty things that happen when someone feels angry or sadÖ etc, or even when they behave on instinct or compulsion. Getting tough on crime will not prevent these at all; most happen because people lose their mind for a couple of minutes, or can't resist acting upon what drives them to it.

The other major motivation is profit. They say crime does not pay but they're wrong. Crime does pay and not only that, crime does pay very well. Getting tough on crime in many cases only increases the profits; the harder something is or the more risk involved, the higher the profit margins. Getting tough on crime will not decrease this crime; it will make it only more violent. If you will increase the jail-time or have more felonies on the execution list, or are quicker with your executions, there will only be more blood on the streets. More civilian and more cop blood. If people will hang, they don't really care if they have to add ten murders more to their rap-sheet. You can hang them only once.

Look at Mexico and their war on drugs. There are towns that have no cops left because they either resigned or were murdered. Guess who's winning the war?

People will always be into crime, no matter what laws one invents. And they will always have better weaponry, networks and information than the civilians or cops. They're the predators in society.

People that demand more and faster executions will not get any safety in return.

D.

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#46409 - 01/10/11 11:52 AM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Asmedious]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Asmedious

RETRIBUTION
The executions are being carried out in your name, that of the American people. The difference that separates you from the creature that is being done to death is that you are human and they are subhuman. If you are of the outlook of going for the torture of the convict, then you move to their level. They are dying because they are a loser, you are alive because you are a winner in life, why then be like them by indulging in their subhuman mentality via torturing them? Be a winner, not a loser, you are better than them, so just kill them and move on.

EFFICIENCY
Supporting giving the likes of baby rapists tens years of extra life and pointless appeals means you as an American will be paying for it. According to this site California pays $90,000 per year per death row prisoner, so for ten years of extra life on your dime a death row prisoner will cost near a $1million, let alone the cost of probably double that in the legal and court costs of appeals. How many American school children have been deprived of investment in their school to keep a baby rapist alive for ten years? think about it - how would you like your $ spent? - baby rapist or the education of your school children? From sentence I propose one appeal and one month of life - then death.



Edited by mabon2010 (01/10/11 11:56 AM)
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#46414 - 01/10/11 12:03 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Diavolo

I agree with all your conclusions on motivation for crime.

My issue is not about motivations, it is about what one does with the individual after they did the crime. I offer a simple solution - get rid of them as fast as you can, as efficiently as you can, as cheaply as you can.

I could not care less why a person did what they did, I am interested in improving the system that will dispose of their worthless lives.


Edited by mabon2010 (01/10/11 12:04 PM)
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#46418 - 01/10/11 12:12 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Sure but are you willing to accept the consequences?

Crime happens in all societies but when sentences are shorter or softer, on average, criminals tend to not go in overdrive when they attempt to arrest them. Everything comes at a cost. What you call cheaply and efficiently could prove to be quite costly and inefficient.

D.

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#46421 - 01/10/11 12:19 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Diavolo

I am unsure how:

1. one appeal.
2. death within one month of sentence.
3. death by hanging.

Would be more expensive than the current system. To give you an idea the following site gives some costs:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty


Edited by mabon2010 (01/10/11 12:20 PM)
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#46423 - 01/10/11 12:21 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1723
Loc: New York
 Quote:
The executions are being carried out in your name, that of the American people


Anyone, anywhere, at anytime can claim to be doing anything in my name. It means nothing to me because itís just something made up. Realistically I have very little if anything at all to say about what is being done by the government here. Sure I can go pull a switch and vote. Heck it might not even be counted as far as I know.
Having been on the receiving end of the government whipping stick a few times, even for minor things, I was able to see that ďThe peopleĒ who were supposedly were the accusers were actually one or two desk jokeys who kissed ass to gain a little bit of power which they wielded with great authority.

 Quote:
The difference that separates you from the creature that is being done to death is that you are human and they are subhuman.


Depending on their crime, I would say that occasionally what separates me from them is that they have more balls then I do.

 Quote:

If you are of the outlook of going for the torture of the convict, then you move to their level.


In theory, I am willing to move up or down to ANY level that works for me. To say that Iím at a certain level is non sense. Iím a person simply being myself and Iím not at a level that can be objectively measured. Itís all subjective, which pretty much means itís only in someoneís mind. And I sure as hell donít want to live my life according to someone elseís measuring stick in their head.

 Quote:
Be a winner, not a loser, you are better than them, so just kill them and move on.


That statement is so absurd for a Satanist, I canít even begin to touch on it.

 Quote:
Supporting giving the likes of baby rapists tens years of extra life and pointless appeals means you as an American will be paying for it. According toCalifornia pays $90,000 per year per death row prisoner, so for ten years of extra life on your dime a death row prisoner will cost near a $1million,


Fair point. However, to make someone who I see as a slime ball suffer for ten extra years Iím willing to forgo a few billion dollars that I would never see in any shape or form no matter what was done with it. Iím not poor enough to get any extra benefits, and not rich enough to have the resources to steal any of it. So fuck it. Spend it on making life for scum bags miserable.

 Quote:
From sentence I propose one appeal and one month of life - then death.


May sound good in theory, but as stated earlier there are a very large number of people in prison who are innocent. As far as Iím concerned no amount of money is a waste if at one point just one innocent person who was wrongly convicted might be released. To me the idea of being imprisoned is far worse then a death sentence.
_________________________
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#46428 - 01/10/11 12:31 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The less options you give, the higher the risk when getting caught.

If I can be on death row for twenty years and have enough shots at getting out of it, or have to do 50 years, I will consider that an option. If I'm pretty sure I'm going to be wasted quite soon and my options are few, none is going to get me alive. As such, I'd shoot the cops, that old granny passing by and even her puppy before hijacking a school bus, driving it from a cliff while singing "And we will all go down together".

An over-the-top example maybe but you get the gist I guess.

D.

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#46432 - 01/10/11 12:56 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
Dutch Satanist Offline
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Registered: 10/19/10
Posts: 69
Loc: Delft, The Netherlands
The punishment should fit the crime. I agree with LaVey's Lex Talionis on this one. Oh, and of course it has to be proven that the person committed the crime. People are innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. And I support Habeas Corpus.

If execution fits the bill, then so be it. But for some crimes, execution would be too easy. To quote "The Princess Bride":

 Originally Posted By: The Princess Bride

Prince Humperdinck: First things first, to the death.
Westley: No. To the pain.
Prince Humperdinck: I don't think I'm quite familiar with that phrase.
Westley: I'll explain and I'll use small words so that you'll be sure to understand, you warthog faced buffoon.
Prince Humperdinck: That may be the first time in my life a man has dared insult me.
Westley: It won't be the last. To the pain means the first thing you will lose will be your feet below the ankles. Then your hands at the wrists. Next your nose.
Prince Humperdinck: And then my tongue I suppose, I killed you too quickly the last time. A mistake I don't mean to duplicate tonight.
Westley: I wasn't finished. The next thing you will lose will be your left eye followed by your right.
Prince Humperdinck: And then my ears, I understand let's get on with it.
Westley: WRONG. Your ears you keep and I'll tell you why. So that every shriek of every child at seeing your hideousness will be yours to cherish. Every babe that weeps at your approach, every woman who cries out, "Dear God! What is that thing," will echo in your perfect ears. That is what to the pain means. It means I leave you in anguish, wallowing in freakish misery forever.
_________________________
ďThere is a beast in man that needs to be excersised, not exorcised.Ē

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#46439 - 01/10/11 01:32 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
If you feel I am still unqualified to pass judgement on your execution system then if you privatise it, I will invest in it, as I think with my efficiency improvements there is good money to be made in the killing machine of the American justice system.


You're way behind and thinking too small to boot. The American justice system is already increasingly privatized, and there's far more money to be made by increasing the number of live prisoners as opposed to killing your golden geese.

The US already has more than seven times as many people in jail (per capita) as the UK - seems our justice system works way better than yours, yes?
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#46441 - 01/10/11 01:45 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Autodidact]
Diavolo Offline
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stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Let's not forget the ironic fact that states which have the death penalty, on average, also have quite a high percentage more homicides than those which don't. Which shows that the thing which should be scary has quite a different effect than most imagine.

D.

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#46461 - 01/10/11 04:58 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
@ Nyte

OTHER NATIONS
I am British and I am writing my opinion to an international Satanist forum. I am entitled to my opinions about other nations, just as you or anyone is about my nation. I am not telling your nation to do anything, if I was I would be going to the decision maker such as President Obama rather than 600Club.

Sure I am not American, and I only visited your nation once to meet Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse at Disney World as a child. I like America and Donald Duck. I think your execution system sucks, so I offer opinion and suggestions as an outsider.



Please, feel free and offer your opinion to the Pres. I'm sure he'd appreciate that.


 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
Britain does have an investment in the execution industry of your citizens as we are supplying you with the drugs to kill them - 176 Horn Lane, Acton, London to be precise, along with helping people to drive safely.

If you feel I am still unqualified to pass judgment on your execution system then if you privatise it, I will invest in it, as I think with my efficiency improvements there is good money to be made in the killing machine of the American justice system.


Just because Britain supplies some of the drugs that the US happens to pay for, doesn't make YOU personally qualified to pass judgment on the subject. Do you personally carry out executions in your own country? Have strict laws been enforced in your own country? What good have they done? Feel free to show me anywhere that your "opinion" works, because as of today, there has been more than ONE case where our system has worked when it came to an innocent person walking out of prison after years of waiting for their innocence to be proven. New technologies finally put to rest a prison term that never should have been. So.... I say, I'll keep our system, thank you. Hopefully I'll never have the need to use it.

As for privatizing our prison system, all ready done in more than one state. And it's not the executing that makes the "BIG" money. You're not fully informed obviously.

 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
CHILDREN
Your concerns that I would participate in the execution of my own child is a non-event. I won't be having any of those nasty creatures. Hail myself, there is no room for children in my devotion to my own legend.


Then you wouldn't understand why people would prefer the system we have as appose to the one you have offered. Until you have to go out and physically hang a loved one, or even think of it, you don't have a clue. If you claim you don't have anyone in your life that it would bother you beyond belief to kill yourself, than you are lying to yourself. You better thank your lucky stars that your parents decided to have a "nasty creature".

Your own legend? And that would be what exactly?
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#46462 - 01/10/11 05:03 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Diavolo]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Let's not forget the ironic fact that states which have the death penalty, on average, also have quite a high percentage more homicides than those which don't. Which shows that the thing which should be scary has quite a different effect than most imagine.

D.


But Diavolo...you must be mistaken. Are you sure that's right?!

On a more serious note...I have to agree whole heartedly. More strict doesn't always mean "better". After watching some of the people I have in the 3D world, not much scares them when they have their minds set anymore. Punishment be damned, they do what they "want".
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#46463 - 01/10/11 05:14 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Autodidact]
Nyte Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
You're way behind and thinking too small to boot. The American justice system is already increasingly privatized, and there's far more money to be made by increasing the number of live prisoners as opposed to killing your golden geese.

The US already has more than seven times as many people in jail (per capita) as the UK - seems our justice system works way better than yours, yes?


I forget what channel it was on, but there was a documentary about the private sector prisons in the US. If I remember right, they were cashing in quite well. I'll have to see if I can find it on the net, and if there are dollar stats per inmate along with it.

7 times? I knew it was higher but didn't realize it was that high. I wonder how many are illegals, just out of curiosity. Do you have a link to those stats Autodidact?
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#46464 - 01/10/11 05:17 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Nyte]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Prisoners per capita

D.

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#46467 - 01/10/11 05:29 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Diavolo]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo


Thank you Diavolo. Looking through the stats, I'm shocked anyone would even consider committing a crime in China. It does prove the point that execution does not deter crime. Hmm, going have to go do some more digging, because now I'm curious as to what the crimes were that brought about that many executions.
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#46477 - 01/10/11 07:42 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Nyte]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Nyte
7 times? I knew it was higher but didn't realize it was that high. I wonder how many are illegals, just out of curiosity. Do you have a link to those stats Autodidact?


I just grabbed numbers from here for the multiple: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#Population_statistics

NB: it's actually five times, not seven, which just goes to prove how badly math skills are declining in the US

Numbers should be easy to find. I seem to recall hearing somewhere that a good portion of the US prison population is due to things like drug sentencing and the three strikes laws ...
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#46479 - 01/10/11 08:07 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Personally, I don't like the idea of the State having the power to execute citizens. Govts historically abuse the powers granted to them by the people.

Rather, I would like to see greater empowerment of the individual. Right now, we have half a sandwich in the US. We have the right to keep and bear arms, but in most cases we lack the legal authority. An armed individual in the US is a great risk of civil and criminal legal action should he actual confront and kill an assailant.

Instead of giving further powers to the State, we should change the laws to give individuals much greater latitude in weapon selection, possession, and employment. Effectively, I would like to see every individual with the ability to employ force in a manner similar to what the police. Ultimately, I would like to see the Law and the individual morality of the average citizen (the jury pool) reflect the dictates of Lex Talionis, as opposed to Judeo-Christian thumbsucking.
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#46480 - 01/10/11 08:33 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Fist]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Fist
Personally, I don't like the idea of the State having the power to execute citizens.
[..]
Rather, I would like to see greater empowerment of the individual.
[...]
Ultimately, I would like to see the Law and the individual morality of the average citizen (the jury pool) reflect the dictates of Lex Talionis, as opposed to Judeo-Christian thumbsucking.


This seems a bit contradictory - a jury acts on behalf of the state.

Are you advocating a version of lex talionis wherein the average citizen is judge, jury, and executioner? No need for juries, then ...

Or are you suggesting that empowered citizens would be an effective deterrent, such that death penalty crimes would decrease?
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#46481 - 01/10/11 08:36 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Fist]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Fist

Instead of giving further powers to the State, we should change the laws to give individuals much greater latitude in weapon selection, possession, and employment. Effectively, I would like to see every individual with the ability to employ force in a manner similar to what the police. Ultimately, I would like to see the Law and the individual morality of the average citizen (the jury pool) reflect the dictates of Lex Talionis, as opposed to Judeo-Christian thumbsucking.


This, I could see, being a much more proficient deterrent to crime. In turn, I believe that like the CCW though, people should have to have thorough checks and balances to getting weapons. Not just any Walmart can sell a gun, but a licensed facility where people are trained to use a weapon properly.

I will say this. Because of what's been happening around here, I will be getting my CCW and purchasing a gun that I feel comfortable with. I'm done letting my family be an "open" target, especially with the changes that have occurred with our job situations. I'll be paying for my oldest to take a weapons class as well. It's time, and although I don't like it, I know when things have to change.


Edited by Nyte (01/10/11 08:37 PM)
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#46485 - 01/10/11 09:23 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Nyte]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
You (generic "you", as in "you all") should watch "Bowling for Columbine".

No, no, I know what you're thinking, but the movie actually comes out pro-gun (well, at least not anti-gun). Michael does take a long time to get there, though, so you have to sit through a bunch of boring, repetitive, seemingly-anti-gun bits. Put it on double- or quadruple-time play, and stop when you see Marilyn Manson.
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#46490 - 01/11/11 12:02 AM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Autodidact]
anseoasresere Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/03/11
Posts: 31
Loc: Massachusetts USA
i was on a conspiracy forum the day this happened and saw the events unfold. including seeing the person's youtube videos, and his posts on abovetopsecret.com . the guy was rambling about money and the NWO. (the links are at the bottom)

from my perspective the real issue is not some guy murdering a senator its the fact that for a day or two sarah palin had an image on her website featuring a map of the U.S. with crosshairs pointed at states with so-called "unamerican" politicians. this picture was taken down later that day.

basically the issue is how people are being brainwashed into becoming zealots for something that they dont really understand.

im only 21 so there are only so many election cycles i've seen but this last one was pretty much a joke. most rational people seem to realize this, and they are pissed off about it. the problem is that their way of dealing with it is to murder someone that is essentially a puppet.

all you have to do is look at a woman like sarah palin to realize the whole system is a sham. the fact that having a million dollars makes you a rich person (or 5 million as john macain said) is a bad sign because there are people out there have 500 million dollars. (like henry paulson)

granted, this has something to do with cleverness, and how they've set themselves up over time, but the more money you have the easier it is to have it grow. (and i realize "the harder they come the harder they fall, but...) the majority of people arent making more than $100,000 per year and its no wonder you have people gunning for politicians.

i would say you should look at the motives beyond this instead of just saying the person is a nut, because that is the obvious thing to do. its a lot harder to consider the reality of the situation.

the issue right now isnt a matter of left/right, because im sure the left will say he was a right wing fanatic "patriot" and the right will say he was a "loon".

and as far as executing someone, let the families decide. its not anyone elses place. but you also have to consider the parents of the person that did the shooting. being extreme just to prove a point is absurd. look at the present state of the world, all that will do is fuel the fire, more cannon fodder to prove that the NWO really is "satanic".


(if your interested in the links youtube "[guy's name] compilation" and go to abovetopsecret.com and search "erad3")

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#46491 - 01/11/11 12:24 AM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: anseoasresere]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Well, let's look at what we know about the guy:

Pot head drop out loser who was in enamored by a powerful central govt (seemed to hold Fascists and Communists in high regard).

Yep, sounds like your typical Republican!

He was a nut, plain and simple. Don't try to explain crazy.
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#46494 - 01/11/11 12:56 AM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Fist]
anseoasresere Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/03/11
Posts: 31
Loc: Massachusetts USA
have you listened to some of the republicans out there today? also, if he held fascists and communists in high regards then why would he bother killing some one that supports that agenda? and why would he murder a democrat?

 Originally Posted By: Fist
Well, let's look at what we know about the guy:

Pot head drop out loser who was in enamored by a powerful central govt (seemed to hold Fascists and Communists in high regard).

Yep, sounds like your typical Republican!



i dont know about the pothead part but if you substitute it for alcoholic/pill-freak its a dead ringer for the current image of republicans.

its hard to tell if you are being sarcastic...

in the end it doesnt really matter, its just a way for peacocks to show off their feathers.

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#46498 - 01/11/11 02:05 AM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: anseoasresere]
anseoasresere Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/03/11
Posts: 31
Loc: Massachusetts USA
i have noticed from watching his videos on youtube that it seems like the guy read R.D. Laing's book "knots".

and you were right fist, the guy was "involved" in the occult and apparently interested in vampirism. i didnt realize there was so much research on the guy. not typical "conservative" interests.

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#46803 - 01/14/11 05:06 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: anseoasresere]
BaronVonShankly Offline
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Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 168
Loc: London
Has anyone seen the bbc horizon documentry done by michael portillo?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woBUtoh02ic

in fact the humane method they came up with was seen as bad due to "punishment having to hurt".

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#46810 - 01/14/11 07:08 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: BaronVonShankly]
Goliath Offline
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Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 93
 Originally Posted By: BaronVonShankly
Has anyone seen the bbc horizon documentry done by michael portillo?


I've watched that documentary. I found it quite interesting--especially the death-penalty advocate's reasons for rejecting Portillo's suggestion. A good Christian attitude, in my opinion.

One doesn't have to be some kind of bleeding-heart to favour a humane method of execution. One merely has to recognize that death, by itself, is already a pretty severe punishment.

This was the position of the 18th-century Italian philosophe Cesare Beccaria in his very influential work On Crimes and Punishments, which inspired one of the goriest and most fearsome forms of execution in modern times: the guillotine.

Nobody would ever accuse the French Revolutionaries of being soft on crime. Yet the guillotine is arguably quite humane: the loss of blood pressure in an exsanguinating severed head must produce immediate unconsciousness.

One hears legends about heads remaining conscious after they've been severed, but I once checked into the most common story of this type--concerning tests on the head of a murderer named Languille--and discovered that the source provided was bogus.

In any case--it's the certainty of punishment that deters criminals--not its severity.

You can make punishments as gruesome and painful as you like, but people will still break the law if they're not convinced they're going to be caught and punished. If you look at British history, it was no coincidence that the same man who established the first professional police forces in London and Ireland--Sir Robert Peel--was also responsible for drastically reducing the number of death-penalty offences under British law.

Whatever we may think of Fist's proposed solution, it does seem to recognize this fact, and seeks to deter criminals by hardening the target, instead of making threats of punishment that may well turn out to be empty.
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#47341 - 01/25/11 10:33 AM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: Goliath]
BaronVonShankly Offline
member


Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 168
Loc: London
I laughed when I saw someone on youtube ripping off portillo's suggestion and then getting all hurt when I accused them of plagurism for not naming their sources.
I was then refered to as a troll and was told by him he would not apoligise to me until I apoligised to him, I have no intention of apoligising.


Edited by BaronVonShankly (01/25/11 10:34 AM)

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#77480 - 06/27/13 02:28 PM Re: Time to update exectution procedures in USA [Re: mabon2010]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6664
Loc: Virginia
If the motivations for increased/updated executions is simply cost, you might want to do an actual cost-analysis of incarceration vs. the inevitable death sentence being carried out.

It sounds as if this is purely reactionary to the plight of complete strangers that you've never met, let alone forged a personal attachment to. People die all the time. The only reason this story struck a nerve was because it made headlines and played on your heart-strings. Sounds like a shitty tune to me.

"Mass-Shooting" is the new buzz word for crimes considered more heinous than others with no real regard for the people that were actually killed. They are merely symbolic of your own moral platitudes.

I suppose its rather easy to cast a pebble in a foreign pond when you have no real grasp of the Judiciary process (which includes corruptions therein).

As for whom deserves what, linguistically speaking you might want to understand what deserving something actually means, then address the context.

As for what perceived improvements it would make to humanity? Dubious at best. We kill, if the act is not performed with your own hand, you are committing the act by proxy...That's our humanity.
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