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#47233 - 01/23/11 09:31 AM Re: What is reality? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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It seems you struggle with the noumena/phenomena. How I see reality is not a purely philosophical perspective. As a matter of fact, you will hardly find any scientist out there that will claim that what we perceive as reality is the underlying ontological reality. Thinking this reality is the reality is called naive realism for a reason.

The cup is a cup because you compile it as such. Your brain creates the cup triggered by something which you can not perceive as is. Invoking the cup in your mind through memory or perceiving it directly does not differ at all, except maybe at the level of detail in this representation. Your brain and thus memory is not error-free. When you don't perceive, there is no cup because you don't compile the cup out of "what is". But this "what is" will be there unless it has a reason to not be. We can call this "what is" data but that's solely to make it easier to understand.

The real bitch is not even this data but the fact that we are also compiled out of data. So what is there that makes the difference?

D.

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#47236 - 01/23/11 10:27 AM Re: What is reality? [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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I'm not struggling, I'm at ease ;\)

The entire point of my yesterday 8:18 post was to point out that there is an ontological reality.

By saying
 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
Reality can be of an infinite complexity and any model of it we can made is finite and as such will be unable to represent it in its totality
I think I'm not confusing the reality with the representation of it, I'm not confusing the map and the terrain.

As you don't deny the existence of this ontological reality and I'm well aware that the concept "cup" is not the cup, I don't think our point of views are fundamentally different.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Your brain creates the cup triggered by something which you can not perceive as is
Your brain "creates" the cup either because another brain told you "this is a cup" or because you invented the cup. Only in the last option you create something... that's why this is called creativity ;\)

 Quote:
The real bitch is not even this data but the fact that we are also compiled out of data
Compiled by whom?

The fact is that within your map there is a representation of yourself (and I believe that's the core of your map). Believing [the representation of you] is [you] is indeed naive. Realizing this is one of the first step on "the path to enlightenment" and it's probably the goal of the Buddha to highlight this when he applied the same reasoning he had about the chariot to the ego.

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#47237 - 01/23/11 10:28 AM Re: What is reality? [Re: Fabiano]
Jason King Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
Reality can be of an infinite complexity and any model of it we can made is finite and as such will be unable to represent it in its totality.


YES! And this fact is what gives rise to the phenomenal states by way of partition or delimitation. A while back, either on this thread or the other similar one I started, Diavolo argued that there is no real infinity. I meant to reply, but the thread moved on and I left it on the burner. Even though it may appear otherwise, I read you as saying the same thing, and this forms a cornerstone of my own approach.

 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
Having (I hope) clarified this subjectiveness of reality let's come back to my cup. First, I might point out that even when I'll left my house, the memory of the cup is still in my mind. It's not really a perception it but I know that my cup is white and I can bet it'll be there when I'll be back.


The memory and associated expectation are not the cup, as you acknowledge. These are related percepts/concepts which have no bearing on the noumenal existence of a cup, were such a thing as the latter even possible.

 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
Second, even if the cup concept I assign to this object vanishes when I cease to think about it, the cup's matter does not vanish as soon as I close the door behind me. In this sense, the cup does NOT ceases to be real when nobody's there for observing it.


"There is no spoon, it is only the mind which bends."

"Matter" - ahh, that will make for an interesting thread . . .

My point is that ALL such constructs are built upon mind-dependent realities. To pretend to speak of realities as they may exist independently of mind is to engage in a bit of gibberish. To speak of them at all is to engage them with mind. I do understand your underlying point, however it has proved in no small way intractable to analysis.

 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
One can also think about what's happening when I drop my cup on the floor and it breaks. It's not a cup anymore but the weight of all the pieces equal the weights of the cup. There is something which does not vanishes...


The even more elusive "energy". If, as I read you, you are arguing for a matter/energy substratum independent of observation, I agree. Sort of. The kicker is that this energy is voidness/emptiness, and sums to zero across any proper subset of Dharmakaya. Perception gives rise to the discrete limits (quantum theory of phenomena), which cause universes of manifestation to be created from the infinite potency of the Abyss. But these are not real/physical/material in the way you might hope. They are these things conditionally, as they become (atemporally) habitations of mind.

 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
I'll finish by saying that even if such conversation is interesting and enjoyable I don't forget that philosophy mesmerizes. You can play with your mind, draw your map as you want but the terrain remains the terrain and coming back to Fabiano's cup might be worth for keeping your feet well grounded on earth...


Realism carries a naive impetus that is hard to escape. For those who have engaged such topics analytically (such as yourself), there remains the problem of objectivity - i.e. it is obvious as all hell that there is a "really big thing" which presents itself to us, but which we do not control and exists independently of our choosing it. Understanding this as a nondual presentation of the Nature of Mind is a difficult thing. However, this latter realization actually removes not an ounce of facticity from these phenomenal states of affairs. "It is what it is," and I agree. This is so subtle a distinction it is no wonder it is left to the innermost tantras.

JK
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#47239 - 01/23/11 11:36 AM Re: What is reality? [Re: Jason King]
Diavolo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Jason King
A while back, either on this thread or the other similar one I started, Diavolo argued that there is no real infinity. I meant to reply, but the thread moved on and I left it on the burner. Even though it may appear otherwise, I read you as saying the same thing, and this forms a cornerstone of my own approach.


I see infinite as a construct in an abstract reality. There it only represents something which could be simply called "beyond calculation". It might be a useful construct in that environment and I don't argue it doesn't exist there but it therefore does not exist out of that reality.

If the ontological reality is noumenal, one can not describe something phenomenal to it, which infinity essentially is, and consider it valid or real.

I don't think that out of the abstract field anything indicates towards infinite. I'm of course open to be proven wrong about it.

D.

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#47241 - 01/23/11 11:53 AM Re: What is reality? [Re: Jason King]
Fabiano Offline
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 Quote:
A while back, either on this thread or the other similar one I started, Diavolo argued that there is no real infinity
I don't want to speak on Diavolo's behalf but I think part of the answer can be found in the fact that I'm a mystic while he's not.

 Quote:
To pretend to speak of realities as they may exist independently of mind is to engage in a bit of gibberish
I know, I know... That's why I don't expect anything out of this thread but the enjoyment of gibberish.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I don't think that out of the abstract field anything indicates towards infinite. I'm of course open to be proven wrong about it.
I can't prove anything, the only argument I have are my mystical experiences and I'm aware it can be a proof only for me...

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#47249 - 01/23/11 12:53 PM Re: What is reality? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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I'm no mystic indeed; as I debated elsewhere, I see mysticism as a form of psychosis. I however don't intend it as bad as it sounds.

I prefer to stick to logic when analyzing or theorizing, fully realizing I might mess up occasionally and that the tool itself has its limitations. But since I make claims about what reality is not, it is handier than other methods which are more appropriate when making claims about what reality is.

D.

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#47251 - 01/23/11 01:36 PM Re: What is reality? [Re: mabon2010]
Fist Moderator Offline
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 Quote:
I am having a WTF moment.


I had quite a bit on this subject on the old site but that server crashed.

In any event, I gave some of my Cliff Notes on it in this thread:

http://www.the600club.com/topic45612-1.html

Now, I have read the last three pages here and, honestly, it really seems like a semantic dick measuring contest.

Most people have never seen anyone burn to death. I have. And, I can say without reservation, for the guy who is on fire the event is VERY real.

And what about WWII? Did that really happen?

All the same, just because something is real, it does not make it reality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ersatz
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#47254 - 01/23/11 01:53 PM Re: What is reality? [Re: Fist]
Diavolo Offline
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I'm so sorry for having contributed to this semantic dick contest.

But maybe if you had given some attention to the dicks we were comparing, you'd not have to ask those questions.

D.

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#47288 - 01/24/11 07:23 AM Re: What is reality? [Re: Fist]
Jason King Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Fist, added emphasis by JK
Now, I have read the last three pages here and, honestly, it really seems like a semantic dick measuring contest.

Most people have never seen anyone burn to death. I have. And, I can say without reservation, for the guy who is on fire the event is VERY real.


Unintentional irony is the best kind. Here's me earlier:

 Originally Posted By: JK
To say that something is "real" means that it is an object of a phenomenal state of awareness.


which sounds a bit like the portion of your reply I bolded. The interesting thing is that this realization (pun definitely intended) merely opens a door to the philosophical problem of "reality". Hence all the dick measuring.

Some people (usually the more grounded/pragmatic) tend to view philosophy as useless mental masturbation. You strike me as just such a "brass tacks" kind of guy, which is cool and all. But the thing is, the doors exist whether you choose to walk through them or not (how's that for topical irony?). And even a realist such as yourself can't resist opening one from time to time, even if only to peer through and shake your head.

JK
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#47289 - 01/24/11 07:39 AM Re: What is reality? [Re: Diavolo]
Jason King Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I'm no mystic indeed; as I debated elsewhere, I see mysticism as a form of psychosis. I however don't intend it as bad as it sounds.


I'd love to engage you on this, perhaps in a new (or existing, if you debated it here) thread on the Philosophy forum if you are willing. I'd of course be interested in first understanding how you delimit "mysticism," as that might negate any issues I have with the above quote.

Let me know, either of us can start the thread, although I had eyes on a "Matter" thread as well.

JK
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#47297 - 01/24/11 11:50 AM Re: What is reality? [Re: Jason King]
Fabiano Offline
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I'll surely enjoy looking at your exchanges on this topic and may be I'll even be able to add my 2 cents.

There is already a thread about rational mysticism which could be reused...

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#47298 - 01/24/11 11:55 AM Re: What is reality? [Re: Jason King]
Diavolo Offline
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When I call it psychosis, I solely talk about those episodes that are called insight, gnosis or enlightenment. I see them as a trick of the brain that gives only an illusion of understanding. I don't know if that can be argued much considering our views upon reality.

D.

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#47318 - 01/24/11 09:09 PM Re: What is reality? [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
When I call it psychosis, I solely talk about those episodes that are called insight, gnosis or enlightenment. I see them as a trick of the brain that gives only an illusion of understanding.


In fact, during these episodes there is no illusion of understanding. There is even no understanding at all. I had to take some difficult decisions in my life and for some I had this strange experience of "gnosis". There is nothing to understand, you KNOW, you just KNOW what's the right option to take.
Often there is an internal battle between your rational intellect who tells you that there are so many reason against this choice and that acting this way is foolish, insane. It's not like an intellectual knowledge, it's much more intense (like you fell it in each cell of your body - and I realize my words will never render the experience).

Then up to you to choose to follow your intellect or your "faith". In my personal case, I never had to regret choices I made based on this knowledge and for some I only understood why this choice was the good one years later. Looking over my shoulder, having now informations I was missing at that time, I only understand it now.

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#47319 - 01/24/11 09:33 PM Re: What is reality? [Re: Fabiano]
Jake999 Offline
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I don't know... maybe we have a natural need to mystify those things we don't quite understand, rather than simply admitting we don't know and may NEVER know. But in my case, I tend to see reality rather simply, with no need for mental masturbations over trees in the forrest falling or coffee cups not being real when I leave the room.

If a tree falls in the forrest and there's no one to hear it fall, whether or not it makes a noise simply is not my concern. It doesn't affect me. Now, the deaf person walking through the forrest might find some measure of importance if he is walking in front of a tree that's falling... but the noise it makes is in his best interests to hear, yet being incapable OF hearing, he might well have to rely on other stimuli to alert him. Rabbits running away, looking back over their shoulders with wide eyes and an "OH SHIT" expression perhaps, or the feel of the tremor of the tree's breaking. But for ME, miles away in a city, perhaps drinking a latte at my desk, it's simply an interesting conundrum for which I have no answer. I KNOW trees fall in the woods. I've seen them there. I can extrapolate in my mind that I have also seen trees fall not in the woods, but as a result of human intervention, and THEY made noise, and common sense might kick in. Or I could lose my common sense in Philosophy 101 and spend days contemplating nothing... the sound of one hand clapping.

And when I come home, the cup will still be there. waiting for me to wash it, or my wife will be there, making noise about why I didn't clean up after my morning coffee and if it weren't for me and my laziness... reality. It's there. You just have to resist the urge to ignore it.
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#47325 - 01/25/11 12:19 AM Re: What is reality? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
In fact, during these episodes there is no illusion of understanding. There is even no understanding at all. I had to take some difficult decisions in my life and for some I had this strange experience of "gnosis". There is nothing to understand, you KNOW, you just KNOW what's the right option to take.
Often there is an internal battle between your rational intellect who tells you that there are so many reason against this choice and that acting this way is foolish, insane. It's not like an intellectual knowledge, it's much more intense (like you fell it in each cell of your body - and I realize my words will never render the experience).


I think you give your brain too much credit. If you understand what a wacky device your brain is and how it functions in creating reality, you might come to understand that it might efficiently be called a herd-mind at more levels than we care to admit. But that's maybe for another topic.

D.

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