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#47183 - 01/22/11 02:22 PM Objective study of satanism by christians?
BaronVonShankly Offline
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Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 168
Loc: London
Im curious has there ever been an objective study of Satanism by a christian achademic? As all I have been able to find is Bob Larson and his scare mongering. Im actually providing resources for a friend of mine who is a Baptist minister ( long story short we were at university together), who knows im a satanist and doesnt have a problem with it beliving in life we should all go our own paths, as like he said in his opinion "God doesnt need defending". He knows he's going to probably get panned in the christian world for his book but whatever. Im just curious do any other objective studies of Satanism by christians exist?
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#47189 - 01/22/11 03:48 PM Re: Objective study of satanism by christians? [Re: BaronVonShankly]
Jason King Offline
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Registered: 10/24/10
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J.B. Russell.

JK
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#47195 - 01/22/11 05:10 PM Re: Objective study of satanism by christians? [Re: Jason King]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2572
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
J.B. Russell.

Hardly.
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#47231 - 01/23/11 09:09 AM Re: Objective study of satanism by christians? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jason King Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
J.B. Russell.

Hardly.


I was not arguing the merits of his work, rather answering the OP's question the way it was posed. Objectivity does not necessarily rule out one being misinformed about a thing or two. Herrnstein/Murray's The Bell Curve is a perfect example of the latter.

JK
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#47250 - 01/23/11 01:23 PM Re: Objective study of satanism by christians? [Re: Jason King]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
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The short answer is no. As MAA points out, most have simply made it a habit of lumping every lunatic into the satanic heap. Every one of these loons have always claimed to be the Second Coming or otherwise having a direct line to god.

There have been a few interviews with actual Satanists (not the kid in makeup outside the Marilyn Manson show) but in most cases they were pretty sorry attempts to get to the actual facts.

These days, most Xtians are just trying to hang in there. I would argue that few would even want to discuss Satanism in any serious way. Most young Americans today lack any serious religious upbringing. The current underlying morality in America has a rather laissez faire tone. I think to discuss Satanism seriously in the open would only serve to increase the number of people reading TSB - something Xtians don't want to actually do.

A few years ago the Wiccans were demanding to be recognized as a legal religion. The buzz caused them to have a bit of an explosion because they had a rather permissive, non-judgmental RHP spiritual philosophy - something that I think spoke to a lot of young people.

Personally, I look forward to a good old fashion Satanic Panic.
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#47253 - 01/23/11 01:49 PM Re: Objective study of satanism by christians? [Re: Fist]
BaronVonShankly Offline
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Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 168
Loc: London
The thing is though, my friend actually agrees with the point that Gillmore made about how every person who has commited a crime and blaimed satan, is a Christian who has decided to invert their beliefs. Im guessing the study of Anthropology combined with Theology as well as having Christian Evolution tendencies are what has made James slightly more open minded in respect to actually reading the TSB and other Lavey litrature to attempt to get an understanding.
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#47470 - 01/28/11 01:31 AM Re: Objective study of satanism by christians? [Re: BaronVonShankly]
Mindmaster Offline
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Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Detroit, MI
Strangely, I've never actually had a Satanic subject argument with my Christian friends. Part of it may have been that it was in my house that we were talking but nearly anyone I know is fully aware of my Satanism, but I believe mine are just great for me. I think mostly the lay person of Christian faith mostly doesn't give two shits about it. It seems like most of them really don't believe the lies anyway. There are a lot of 'hereditary' Christians as well who do not really participate in the religion at all but still identify themselves as such. Most Evangelical Christians do play pin the tail on the devil frequently, but as a rule have been brain-washed into their religion since age 2-3 and are lost causes. You could win an argument with a rock before you will get anything into these skulls, so save your oxygen. Watch _Jesus Camp_ (on Netflix) just to get an idea of what they do. You'd think you were watching a hitler youth recruitment film.

As a theistic Satanist though I will not allow them to define me. I do not believe in their idea of god, Jesus, and many other concepts. I don't decorate my home with upside crosses (which have no meaning to me), etc... it's all infantile and childish behavior. I sometimes even feel weird wearing a normal Pentagram because of being mis-identified as a wiccan, or a laveyean Satanist, or whatever. There is really no symbol of theistic Satanism, so time to start working on one. \:D

All that being said the average Christian isn't even a blip on my map I neither hate them nor wish them harm. I philosophically and spiritually don't agree with them, but that doesn't mean they can't figure it out later on their own so why not give them a chance? Personally, that was the background I came from and I didn't become Satanist to rebel against them. I merely didn't believe anything they were saying and quickly became disinterested. I was a complete Atheist before I became theistic, and while the jump to CoS Satanism is small the leap to where I am now took awhile in coming. \:\)

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#47500 - 01/29/11 02:16 AM Re: Objective study of satanism by christians? [Re: Mindmaster]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
Okay, have there been any LHP Satanists that have later converted to Christianity and written about the experience? Compare the paradigms for their magical results perhaps?

Mind Master, perhaps you have something to report. Theistic Satanism in theory is as RHP as any Christianity, have your results improved interpreting the relevant power coming from without yourself?

The interesting Christians are the ones that could also be called mystics. I don't know any at the moment, but such a Christian may be capable of giving feedback on theistic and LHP Satanism without the usual Christian prejudice.

If you want a graphic design for theistic Satanism, I am a graphic Artist and would be happy to help if I can. Marketing it as THE design though - that would be up to you. The challenge is substantial because the classic visual metaphors for Satanism are, as you explain, already taken and easily misleading. But at the same time, a theistic Satanist may feel more classically a Satanist than the LHP brethren - and so the classic motifs are even more appropriate....

Are you familiar with the Yzedi myth? Just curious...

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#47512 - 01/29/11 10:21 AM Re: Objective study of satanism by christians? [Re: myk5]
felixgarnet Offline
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Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
"The Origin of Satan" (1995), Vintage Books, 214 p., ISBN 0-679-73118-0 by Elaine Pagels.
Pagels is Professor of Religion at Princeton University and, so far as I know, is still a a practising Christian since I read her in the late 1980's. She has also written on "Adam, Eve and the Serpent" (book title) from a feminist theologian standpoint. This examines the origin and nature of the frequent incomprehension and cruelty between the sexes using Biblical exegesis and contemporary sources.
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#47605 - 01/30/11 01:07 PM Re: Objective study of satanism by christians? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
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Loc: Orlando, FL
I was not aware of you and the ToS responding to his writings. I remember reading over the two paragraphs he gave to contemporary Satanism, and was given the general impression that he had simply skimmed over the subject and dismissed it as ephemera. It's not that he disagrees with Satanism that bothered me, it was that he seems have been factually misinformed about the whole topic.

I found Russel's work to be quite interesting and informative, but not effective in its overreaching goal. He caps off his books with the assertion that the Devil is representative of "radical evil"... that is, the most horrifying aberrations manifest in human nature-- psychosis, genocide, rape, and murder. But then he proceeds to paint a picture of a sinister anthropomorphic folk-villain who plays pranks on saints and inspires decadent poetry.

Of course, he was also flawed in his attempts at nailing down the "SATAN = ULTIMATE EVIL" idea since most things ascribed to the devil (heresy, pride, anti-conformity, sexuality, etc) are rather subjective, leaving quite enough for Old Nick to be patronized by any rebel willing to don the horns.


Edited by The Zebu (01/30/11 01:09 PM)
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#51466 - 03/21/11 11:45 AM Re: Objective study of satanism by christians? [Re: The Zebu]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
A friend of mine is a Christian minister and we battle in mature terms, at least he does. Through this I can see already that we have both preserved and fulfilled our realisations of our chosen paths through exploring opposites and subjecting ideas to a battering.

He finally accepted that I had no want for an afterlife because I worship the Void and stimulation of death. I had to explain to him about facing the nothing outside the universe is an inspiration to focus on what must be done while I can, that time is passing rapidly, that my "religion" can make people drop inhibitions and kind to one another or make them kill, an exposed nature without rules is a risk and always worth it to the individual. Satanism is selfish and Christianity denies selfishness but Satanism is still open to compassion depending on the individual. I had to explain to him that ones nature does not need ideology and if one needs moral's to prohibit their nature then they are lying to themselves, this is good if the intrinsic meaning is to help others but I'm naturally inclined to help others in danger and don't particularly like to, it's just one of those things about my nature just as I have a propensity for violence. I have no ethos.

Then he strengthened his argument by explaining that what he found in his Bible was not the same as what most people think and that it helped him get off heroin and gang violence because he saw a path that was inside him that he just couldn't arrange before because his thoughts were jumbled. Christianity implemented with intrinsic purpose to balance somebody who has gone off the rails can sometimes work. He is evidence because he councils kids about drugs and gangs and ought to be proud.
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#51748 - 03/25/11 08:41 AM Re: Objective study of satanism by christians? [Re: Hegesias]
Jim Lewis Offline
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Registered: 02/24/11
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Loc: Tromsø, Norway
Over the years, I have interacted with John Smulo, a Christian minister, who does research on Satanism. Though his ultimate goal is to convert people, at the same time he attempts (to the extent that this is realistically possible within his theological frame of reference) to paint an accurate picture of modern Satanism. (His appeal to other Christians is that, in order to be effective, an Evangelist needs to actually undertand what Satanism is really all about.) 'John Smulo' is an unusual name, so his work can be located with an Internet search. Satanists may still reject his scholarship as inaccurate, but, in comparison with the hysterial Christian apologists who are willing to attribute the wildest accusations to Satanists, John's stuff is a surprisingly okay.
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#51751 - 03/25/11 09:34 AM Re: Objective study of satanism by christians? [Re: Jim Lewis]
Diavolo Offline
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I think his approach is good even when his ideological or religious basics are weak. Most react upon what is different based upon a colored perception, either provided by their side or by the rumor mill. One can only effectively combat something if one knows what the other believes.

Any smart satanist who prefers battling his opposition better does the same.

D.

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#51769 - 03/25/11 11:38 PM Re: Objective study of satanism by christians? [Re: BaronVonShankly]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
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Since the topic of this thread concerns studies of Satanism, please see Jim Lewis' 600C introductory post for his credentials and links to published writings on the subject. In my opinion he is one of the most careful and comprehensive academicians exploring this somewhat-bewilderingly-multifaceted topic. [I neither know nor care what his personal religion, if any, happens to be.]
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#51784 - 03/26/11 09:21 PM Re: Objective study of satanism by christians? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Can anyone but a Christian ever learn that the Satanist is a personification of sinister intelligentsia or likewise bestial/feral liberation? (temperamental nature and intelligence of the individual taken into account of course)

No matter how much mockery or genuine examples of sinisterness is put in the face of Satanist wannabes and Christians alike, they will simply fuel your aggression due to oblivious unresponsiveness to sinisterness that you hold as first nature and thus this insults your intelligence when they assume they know what it's all about. We know a real Satanist is not concerned with acceptance. He won't need others to get his acceptable jokes in order to laugh himself, he won't need to give others the elbow or wink to get others to acknowledge his wit. Only those who are sinister will see the mundane world in the dark light everyone else is so reliant on such banal mediocrity for reassurance and acceptance, they need to be received on the most easy path possible.

I sometimes wonder if people here think I am giving away some sort of advantage because I both laugh about ASPD casually and talk about it honestly from experience learning to overcome it, the answer would be yes, but that which is disclosed would be insights for the reader only if he thinks outside of he moral institution and actually sees the holistic picture of a satire that is methodical and actually with purpose to issue change.

For example what might be "neo-romanticism of the feminine creature" is a tool of thesis preluding a contrived caustic satire which a handsome misanthropist may in contrast, convey the contemporary whoredom we see in legally established brothels ie. "Nightclubs" where shambling females will line up at the bar (plastered in make up) waiting for the next penis to purchase them via alcoholic beverage. In this we see clearly — acceptable prostitution.

Gentlemanly manner toward women by day is obviously only a good thing for any agenda as man is naturally inclined to be affectionate this way, but such would be met with admiration worth a solemn verb from a Christian rather than them acknowledging the assertion of Will to Power. Would a Christian ever be able to see in the same light a sinister individual? I say this because if they were receptive to, in balance with, the natural life around them, they would not believe in the religion they so morally abide by.

By far the sickest kind of hubris is the "modest hero" because his solemn modesty is a play for what they feel is genuine attention far more conceited than his oblivious awe inspired audience can understand — and maybe they themselves do not understand. I have encountered military personnel who like to be the only male in the room with dominance throwing their weight around my friends, and I've angered them to violence simply because a military personnel with a hubris attitude is something which I see as perverse vulgar display of power which deserves a wake up call. Would a Christian call out such a person and laugh as he gets his head kicked in? I think they'd not even be able conceptualise why such behaviour would be absolute mockery.

The Christian is on to more than a lot of Satanist' will understand though because they fear the Satanist, the individual finding Satanism as a saviour to his failed life would not realise what he's getting into. I'm sure you'll agree that the darkest mockery appears right in the face of those so despised, yet it's never realised because they can never understand, they are not readily expected to understand that which is beyond their experience, and this is the point. I myself will often present a double edged sword but enough about that.

Those pretending to be Occultist, or Satanist or genuine Christian Occult scholars (whatever the fuck that means) have deluded themselves into thinking they are mysteriously tuned in with Nature and the Cosmos. They are the same people who have removed themselves from nature, which is the mundane, by creating something very odd in their minds. They deserve to be mocked at their very core.

The desecration of Christ is not a fitting weapon for character assassination of a pretentious Occultist so the sinister shall mock the very workings of the psyche. Why? Because somebody who will be ignorant of intelligence itself begs to be humiliated, begs to be mocked as Satanism is beyond the limited media of words and intellectualisms. We know that it is not be consigned to one established intellectualised philosophy. It can not be heard because it is the word of the Beast we cannot see. It is an "individuals" defiance and nobody else's, none of us are something to pick apart and analyse, we are not societally assimilated nor controlled opposition as Satanism is not simple inversion.

We court danger and affirmation of existence through living on the edge, living dangerously, what has the Christian done to experience this? he has observed behind the shield of society, a picture which has been interpreted from his mind which is alien to Satanism. Especially Satanic Churches are something alien to me, unless of course nature is the church, for which then nature ought to be affirmed rather than the Church? Wordplay and mockery?

Occult powers were never anything supernatural or anything out of the ordinary to me, but purely an innate empathy you could say, understanding of the mundane and seeing the world in a dark light, insofar as reading body language (vulnerable gait), in a moment, being able to spot/detect weaknesses in another's character/personality/temperament, many people simply reek of weakness and often they are the most outwardly aggressive.

Sinister individuals are more mundane than oblivious society can understand, we are beyond their experience and beyond what they can experience through actually developing streetwise behavioural skills and through personalised self-overcoming and ordeals conquered, we achieve a sense of self empowerment and genuine esoteric knowledge through understanding and actualised proof. The contemporary book learned Occultist and likewise the Christian is awarded by someone else contemporary or they are revered in awe by other mental cripples, this being the source of their imagined powers and understandings. Such a conceited psyche of a monotheist can never understand Satanism because Satanism is the Cult of the Individual.

I present to the Christian, and those pretending to be Satanist, Occultist: "knowledge is not the same as understanding".

And in all seriousness, does anyone get my drift here — outsiders observing rather than experiencing? I think there is no need to answer, I was just making a point on the field.
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