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#47868 - 02/02/11 07:08 AM Re: red satanism [Re: Meatl Gear]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
I believe in totalitarian governments.


Ok, so given that the world is filled with so many wonderfully totalitarian govts why do you not move to one of these places? I am sure you would have no problem emigrating to North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela or Iran.

And, you still haven't answered the original question! Allow me to restate and clarify it:

In PRACTICE all such systems Maxism/Leninism/Communism and all similar communitarian systems (regardless of theoretical ideals) all ultimately end up forcing the individual to be subordinate to the State. Given that Satanism is about aggrandizing the individual, how is Satanism the least bit compatible with such systems?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#47877 - 02/02/11 11:13 AM Re: red satanism [Re: Fist]
Meatl Gear Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 41
Under those systems, there are still way to "get ahead" and "get revenge against enemies," you just do it through the state instead of economically. Instead of boycotting someone who pisses you off (as under capitalism), in communism, you join the communist party, and ruin their life that way.

Also I think a black market could benefit during communism. And if you do not get caught with your crimes, wouldn't that be Darwinism? I am not saying that I take individualism as far as some (Lavey influenced) satanists.

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#47886 - 02/02/11 01:16 PM Re: red satanism [Re: XiaoGui17]
myk5 Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
Microsoft is more popular than Apple because of affordability maybe. But that doesn't explain how Microsoft's OS is more popular than the more stable and free OS, with free top software, that is any flavour of Linux.
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#47888 - 02/02/11 01:44 PM Re: red satanism [Re: myk5]
myk5 Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
Okay, so reading the comments I've collected some conclusions from what others have written.

"Merit" doesn't actually mean merit - having enough merit and cunning to exploit those stupider than yourself is sufficient, and that degree of merit on an objective scale can even be terribly mediocre.

Personal power isn't determined by the system of managing entire populations, every system that exists to date permits aristocracies that do not correlate to merit, and individuals with determination, will and merit can find ways to prevail.

Personally I can and do describe myself as a leftist. If I am to go after power, great power is often largely a function of it being lent it by others.

I don't agree that criminals should be granted a warm cot, three wholesome meals a day, a gym, free educational opportunities and sub-minimum wage job opportunities - while law abiding people with mental illness or hard luck end up on the street, starved, stinking of filth and often dead from exposure. -Too fucking lazy to kill or rape anyone? Is that their lack of merit justifying their killing?

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#47906 - 02/02/11 05:53 PM Re: red satanism [Re: Meatl Gear]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:

Under those systems, there are still way to "get ahead"...


And you base this on what? First hand experience, extensive research, or wishful thinking?

You really ought to study the history of Communism. My read is that if offers nothing that I would want to be a part of. From people I have personally known who lived under such systems, none want to go back to it.

One of the problem with people who think like you do, is you get a romanticized vision of the perfect Communist State without factoring in human nature. Human nature tends to gum up the works in these systems. You also seem to think that you will be included in, or rise to the top of such a system. What makes you think that you will be any more successful in a totalitarian State than you are right now? Maybe you will be a loser there too?

Success in life, in large part, depends on the ability to network and build alliances. This is a fundamental human dynamic. Many otherwise smart but socially inept people cry sourgrapes when others, who are not as smart as them, but more socially adept, rise to the top of society while they languish in the doldrums. Ever put any critical thought into why this happens?

Again, I will offer you people yet another public service:

Check out "The Millionaire Mind" by Thomas J. Stanley. He explains, based on statistical research, that millionaires tend not to be the people with the highest IQ or best test scores, but rather people with the greatest social acumen.

Historically, in totalitarian States, the people who rise to the top are those who lead a cult of personality and those who know how to network their way though the system. People who rose to the top of NAZI Party or USSR Communist Party were not the best and brightest apparatchiks or govt functionaries, but rather possessed the same social skills they would need to succeed in any human culture.

In other words, perhaps the reason you people can't make it in the world has nothing to do with the system you are living in. Maybe YOU are the reason you can't get ahead?

The most horrifying most people will ever learn is just how much of their own life they truly control. Once this revelation is made, suddenly YOU become responsible for your own life and can't blame YOUR problems on some external boogieman.

In life, it is going to rain, the question is weather you will get an umbrella or even leave the house at all. At least under a capitalist system I have more choices on what I can wear outside and where I can go once I get there.
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#47946 - 02/03/11 07:21 AM Re: red satanism [Re: myk5]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1140
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: myk5
Microsoft is more popular than Apple because of affordability maybe. But that doesn't explain how Microsoft's OS is more popular than the more stable and free OS, with free top software, that is any flavour of Linux.


That's a matter of convenience. Microsoft computers come with a pre-packaged, ready-to-go version of Windows already on their computers. Linux requires a certain degree of background knowledge and effort on the part of the user, and most would rather have that taken care of for them.
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#47951 - 02/03/11 07:43 AM Re: red satanism [Re: Meatl Gear]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Oh lawd....

Well for one, the only way a person *might* be able to get ahead in a communist state is if they were in the top 5% of those who controlled the wealth, goods distribution, or just had the right connections.

Skim a bit off the top and you'd be "ahead" of the poor proletariats, but that would only make you King Shit on Turd Mountain. "Oooooh, meatl has an extra stick of butter and a tin of coffee! He is GOD." Of course, you could use these goods to trade for other services or favors, and while you might end up as a small-scale Grand Poobah, you'd never be wining and dining with the privileged classes. Think: the spacious Waldsiedlung housing compound of DDR Politburo. Or the Chinese communist elite.

Either way, you'd certainly have a great deal less as a commie GP than you do now, under this oppression of Western capitalism.

Do you think you'd be allowed to surf the net freely under a communist regime? That you could post on a Satanic forum (even under a proxy) and not set off some red flags?

Stop kidding yourself, your idealistic/romantic view of this system is as bad as the Left believing that by simply electing Obama into office, he could turn our country back into the bright shiny jewel of the West that it used to be. Or that by re-electing Republicans back into office, that would somehow fix everything that the Democrats mucked up.

Have you never read George Orwell's "1984"? That's a pretty accurate depiction of a totalitarian/communist controlled state.
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#47952 - 02/03/11 07:45 AM Re: red satanism [Re: XiaoGui17]
myk5 Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
It's less true today, new computers are shipped with linux pre-installed, it's not that it's less convenient, it has more to do with something called....marketing.

Capitalism is a paradigm where the first person to engineer the stupid, wins! Engineering the stupid is largely a capacity of already having money to command the attention of as many people as possible. This is not a function of empowering merit, it is a function of advertising.

This is also why politics no longer rewards the capable. People support the best known 'brand' because it is the most familiar brand, because it has more money to back its promotion than any other brand.

This has something to do with how human being arrives at an opinion. Human beings have many reason to have specific opinions, but peahps the most important reason is that the opinion seves to make them ACCEPTABLE to others. And how you best know what the right opinion is, is because your neighbors share it, or at least most of them do. This is why political parties have districts and states, this is why if you advertise heavily you can simulate the sense of a community standard and thereby control a populace. This is also why American news offers the least real coverage of any news in the world - owned and controlled by Global Corporations with interests to protect as it is.

So that's a snap shot of one way power works. Notice, perhaps merit was present in constructing this reality, but what there is supports an American class of privilege rather than one of merit.

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#47953 - 02/03/11 07:59 AM Re: red satanism [Re: myk5]
myk5 Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
And just fyi, if you are looking for actual capability of rising through class by means of merit alone, USA is very poor compared to Brasil. Numbers don't lie. USA has a class structure based on birth and not merit.
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#47997 - 02/03/11 07:12 PM Re: red satanism [Re: myk5]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:

Capitalism is a paradigm where the first person to engineer the stupid, wins!


Hmm, would you care to clue me into any great invention coming from a Communist state? What great products came out of the 'ol USSR?

Would you want to use a State produced OS? A State produced computer? How about a State produced car?

The USSR had reputation of making absolute crap commercial products. The only great invention to ever come out of the USSR was the Avtomat Kalashnikova Model of 1947 - the AK-47 and it was invented by one man. Most nearly every significant invention of the modern age has come from US with the CAPITALIST (although horribly over taxed) Europe and Japan coming in a distant second and third.

Again, Communism (in it's many forms) stifles creativity, innovation, and personal initiative. Of course, for people who already have limited creativity and personal initiative, Communism actually seems like a good deal.
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#47998 - 02/03/11 07:48 PM Re: red satanism [Re: Fist]
Gattamelata Offline
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Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 45

The nuclear power plant? The cosmodrome/spaceport? The satellite? The list of inventions when it comes to space tech alone is quite extensive.

In the fields of mathematics, physics, materials science, chemistry etc the Soviet-funded research institutes achieved cutting edge results.

Well, all this in despite of more than because of Communism, but still..
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#47999 - 02/03/11 08:13 PM Re: red satanism [Re: Gattamelata]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
And the people around Chernobyl are sssssoooooooooo proud.

"Natasha!"
"Yes, Boris?"
"I must say, you have a remarkable glow about you today."
"Thank you darlink! I was scavenging for food around the reactor core this morning."
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#48003 - 02/03/11 08:34 PM Re: red satanism [Re: Gattamelata]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Ah, hey little buddy, nuclear power in an American invention. Ever hear of the Chicago Pile-1?

But yes, I will give Ivan the first satellite. Good job. They made the first satellite, and Khrushchev only had to starve about 5 million 'comrades' to fund the operation. After all, who needs food when you at tin ball that goes 'beeb'?!

Why, to put the first man in space the USSR only had to starve about 10 million. Remember, one man is a tragedy, millions are just statistics!

Of course, America pretty much dominated space after that - put a man on the moon, created a satellite based global communications network, and gave the world GPS - while at the same time giving the average American the highest standard of living in the world. Yep, that evil Capitalism again!

I must tell you, I tried to do a little google search for 'Soviet patents' and 'Soviet inventions', and I had a hard time finding much in the way of new technologies. There seems to be no Soviet equivalent to INVENTING the light bulb, telephone, computer, internal combustion engine, the solid state transistor and semi-conductor, or any other invention that we associate with modernity. However, I do find the Soviet use of cadaveric blood transfusion intriguing but I do not think it could ever see much use beyond the AWESOME Soviet healthcare system.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#48006 - 02/03/11 09:22 PM Re: red satanism [Re: Fist]
Gattamelata Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 45
 Originally Posted By: Fist
Ah, hey little buddy, nuclear power in an American invention. Ever hear of the Chicago Pile-1?


True - but the world's first nuclear power plant, viz. a nuclear power plant designed to generate electricity for a power grid - was a Soviet one, developed by Igor Kurchatov.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
But yes, I will give Ivan the first satellite. Good job. [...] Of course, America pretty much dominated space after that - put a man on the moon, created a satellite based global communications network, and gave the world GPS [...]


Well, as I mentioned, the list of Soviet space tech inventions is quite impressive. One can mention such applications as: the orbital space rocket, the space capsule, the space probe, the reentry capsule, the space suit, the plasma propulsion engine, the proton rocket launch system, the lander spacecraft, the Soyuz rocket (the most frequently used and generally considered the most reliable launch vehicle in the world to this day), the orbital module system, the automated space docking system, the space exploration rover, the space station (and later the modular space station), the Hall effect thruster system, the unmanned resupply spacecraft et cetera.
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Society : an inferno of saviors. —Emil Cioran

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#48008 - 02/03/11 10:03 PM Re: red satanism [Re: Gattamelata]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
You know, I am not sure I haul out Russian reactor design as a monument to Soviet invention.

Never the less, this thread continues to leave me with unanswered questions:

1. Why did the USSR go on to lose the 'space race'? Why did they not dominate space in the way the US has?

2. Why doesn't Russia enjoy economic success with it's products outside of rather limited military sales?

3. Why do Westerners wax romantic about the Communist State while the people who actually live there die trying to get out?

4. How come the above Westerners don't simply stop complaining about Capitalism and move to the Workers Paradise of their choice? I am sure you could get a nice job in China reclaiming the lead from old car batteries.
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