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#73554 - 12/03/12 10:07 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Fnord]
Le Deluge Offline
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Registered: 08/05/12
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Haha. Magically aligns the '59 Chevy.

San Francisco native Anton LaVey codified his Satanism in 1966. Is it now outdated?!? Take 15.



Edited by Le Deluge (12/03/12 10:22 PM)
Edit Reason: superfluous subquestion
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#77420 - 06/25/13 12:32 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Diavolo]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Quite the read. Thanks to all for your participation. My cheeks hurt from that perma-smile I was rockin'

 Quote:
Personally I don't think TSB was intended as a deep philosophical work and I also don't think Lavey had those qualities. It was a lighter work, more intended as amusement and such is many of those living by the philosophy. There's nothing wrong with it; they sure could do worse but it simply can't be considered deep.


I couldn't agree more with this sentiment (where is this guy?). Dissing LaVey aside(much like Diavalo's comment), it's just unfavorable to reduce it to: "Tell me something I don't already know asshole!" I always considered the SB to be a short-work written for Christians. A prop in the theater. Considering the eras, it manifests their superstitions and fears into something tangible and material. "The boogeyman is real and you've found him!"

I figured LaVey calculated the cultus that would form from it, considering that he had a tendancy to attract a club of fanboys and fangirls. Perhaps what actually formed was under-estimated... Then again, maybe not. He was enticing to those that sought to dabble in the Arcane and out in the open (How Diabolical!).

Cults of personality are rarely out-dated. In the early days, the media coverage was fantastic (not so much in recent years)! A collection of real artifacts for the religious to point at and clinch their Bible God even tighter.

To answer your question Fnord, I'd say it will never go out of style (in that context). I don't negate that applying the title to myself directly affiliates me with all this Tomfoolery (by the Religious and Satanist alike). I use it, and more often than not to my advantage. The only real down-side to it is the pains in watching people get used by it. Ouch!

I'm often a bit taken-back by the intelligible being dumbed-down and shackled by what they claim they've broken free of. It's hard Work building paradigms, getting trapped by them and finding a way out. That effort is timeless. One can only hope that lessons are learned well before the the pen is dropped to start a new architecture (next time create a trap door!).

In the 21st century, information is the new commerce. The SB is becoming normalized to a degree that the impact isn't all that profound when compared to the 20th. Cliff-notes of the ideals therein can be found on web-pages, blogs, and forums like this one. I'd imagine that it just caters to those that are time-restricted or too lazy to read the original works the ideas were extrapolated from. Plus, you have to account for the number of people that don't really have a need for the mask of Satan, many rely on personal observation and experiential knowledge.

We might point to a person and say: Hey, I recognize that guy as a Satanist (even if he doesn't self-identify that way), but that's just our own imaginings and projection. Such as the case with Howard Bloom (e.g.).
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#93093 - 09/23/14 10:20 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Fnord]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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I came across this article this morning and it reminded me of this thread.

The byproduct of The Satanic Temple's endeavors seems to be bringing 'Theistic Satanism' to the forefront. Dis-info within the article aside,

 Quote:
The Church of Satan, while encouraging of the concept of intelligence and disobeying social mores, has come out to say that The Satanic Temple should not brand themselves with “Satanism” because they do not worship Satan.



once again the subject of Atheism as Satanism is being analyzed.

 Quote:
Charles Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center in Washington, D.C., said Friday that the Satanists reflect the increasing diversity in America, a country founded on religious freedom, as protestant Christianity's influence has lessened. source


Grand Mufti Troll Towelhead may see his dream manifest in his lifetime. Eventually, Satanism as a manifestation of the LHP will become obsolete and will be replaced with Fluffy Bunny Satanism.

 Quote:
"It's peaceful," said Jex Blackmore, 32, local leader and part of the temple's executive ministry. "The idea of sacrifice specifically is to appease some demon or some god, and that's a supernatural belief that we don't subscribe to."


Plenty do, especially of the dark-paganism variety. While those folks tend to eat what they sacrifice, the propaganda circulated by The Temples of Satan (GM Blackwood) claims he would never eat the animal that was intended for sacrifice. He tends to choose sick animals, so putting them out of their misery for Satan is his way of a humane kill (allegedly).

This whole diversity thing is full of this stuff. It spices things up and makes it far more entertaining. Satanism as a LHP practice isn't so much outdated as it is reserved for a specific type of person (born not made). I see this stuff as necessary, otherwise we just end up with homogeneity that ends up the next Jesus Christ. Parroting the orthodoxy as the only true way. I don't know about you but I don't want that. I know what it is, I don't need to dispel misconceptions or run off half-cocked to correct disinfo as a public service. Let them eat cake.
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#93107 - 09/23/14 01:33 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
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Loc: CA
I think it's the; "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" mentality.

It can border on militant in some cases. As I often do I come back to a genuine aversion towards intolerance or seeming intolerant. What happened to indifference? Many are so conscious not to transgress societal norms that it becomes fear. The prospect of possibly having everything taken away forces one to temper their views in order to avoid that millstone altogether.

The emphasis on Atheism (removing all gnostic and dare I say theistic traces) is self preservation.

What good is a belief if you lose your ass for it.


Edited by CanisMachina42 (09/23/14 01:49 PM)

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#93110 - 09/23/14 02:18 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Loc: Virginia
The way I see it is like this, I can be intolerant when it comes to what I'll accept in personal practice. It doesn't have anything to do with what other people do. Why should I care if people worship Satan? It's fascinating to me. This belief they have in divinities. In tandem there's also the shift in paradigm, in which believers adopt a new way of life.

Look at the Amish as an example. They are a part of society without being 'of it' to a certain extent. It certainly doesn't stop them from making high quality furniture (the stuff that can last a lifetime) at a price (capitalism).

What sense would it make for me to brow-beat the Amish to conform to my way of life? My ideals? That's hypocrisy at it's finest. That would be like me saying "I do what I want but you do what I want too!"

Diversity is vital to any society for it to survive. Otherwise we'd all be eating bland porridge wondering if there's something more palatable out there.

 Quote:
What good is a belief if you lose your ass for it.


This assumes that all believers lose their ass. When conflicted, the Amish raise a barn. The 'Work' is vital to maintaining a certain quality of life. Ever met a miserable Amish person?

Yeah, me either.
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#93119 - 09/23/14 04:17 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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I don't understand what the big taboo is surrounding Satan to begin with. I have never had that superstition. I remember, even at 11 thinking it was so cool when the cash register total was 6.66, I would even save them. The most amusing part was always the look of confusion. I guess most people buy an additional item just to avoid that discomfort.

It's so ingrained, even carrying an alleged genetic marker, to have superstition. It is genuinely feared to the core. This fear is what can trigger righteous indignation. Through no fault of their own.

I think it's fairly obvious the reason for the sedate version is to quell any possible chance of that anger coming into play.

Still I don't Satan Lite as being able to change the superstition any time soon. Change it any way you want, but to a true believer The Devil will always be the creator of all hate, lies, deception, and chaos, and never the way of the universe.

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#93122 - 09/23/14 04:42 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
You and me both. As young as I can remember, I kept thinking to myself "I want to meet such a creature hated this much", then I realized it was all just thought forms created in head space.

Some of my family members are extremely superstitious. It's weird too because the most superstitious of the bunch are first generation American born, not carry overs from Italy. Even if these superstitions were familial indoctrinations, the power of the matriarch is still strong, that's the Satan. It's not Dad that pounds this stuff into their kid's heads, it was Mom. Over the years it hasn't wavered either, I can point out the obvious a hundred times over and it's the same thing. They think I'm just being an asshole vs. trying to smack some sense into them. Now-a-days I just smile and nod, what the hell else can you do? They just won't let go of the shit.

Anytime something went wonky, it's easy to blame it on the Devil, why work at it when a scapegoat is so readily available?

The taboo of embracing the Devil would mean that they are alone in this struggle and that terrifies them even more than any boogeyman hiding in the shadows.
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#93163 - 09/24/14 10:53 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
Here is a follow-up.

 Quote:


Q: The Satanic Temple claims not to believe in the Devil. Why do you call yourselves Satanists?

A: This question is often the first to trouble and confuse the minds of the many who feel that Satan universally represents all that is horrific and anti-human, and that "religion" belongs solely to the superstitious.

Ours is not the Satan of medieval witch-hunting mythology, but the eternal rebel in opposition to tyranny — the literary Satan best exemplified by authors such as Milton, Blake, Shelley, and Anatole France. The self-identified Satanist embraces their outsider status and is drawn to the forbidden, anomalous, and the hidden. We identify with the symbolism of "blasphemy" as an expression of liberation from superstition. We bow to no God, or gods, and we reject all arbitrary edicts and unjust authority.

We have no concern or sympathy for those who wish to preserve the myth of a Satanic cult conspiracy lurking underneath the surface of society, working dutifully toward destruction of the Common Good. If history has taught us anything regarding false allegations related to witchcraft and Satanism, it's that the most horrific evil has always taken place when "good" people are moved by delusional fear to purge their community of a maligned "other".

Contrary to popular perception, I argue that religion cannot be defined to require a belief in the supernatural. At its best, religion provides a narrative context, sense of purpose, symbolic structure, identity, values, and a body of practice. Religions enjoy certain privileges and exemptions that would be reprehensible — in a pluralistic society — to reserve for supernaturalists alone. While we reject superstition, our values are no less sincerely held. And while we view Satanism in metaphorical terms, our tenets and symbolism are far from arbitrary.

In short, we call ourselves Satanists because Satanists we are.



I wonder if it's cognitive dissonance. I'm guessing the 'myth' he's referring to is that of wide-spread SRA BUT... He seems to negate the number of people that also identify as Satanists that commit murder and sacrifice. To say "Well, those people aren't REAL Satanists!" is just a form of denial. Why not just address it directly? When asked myself, I certainly do and the world doesn't end.

So while he has no sympathy for those that seek to preserve this so-called myth, excuse me while my apathy towards this sort of shit is distilled.
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#93174 - 09/24/14 04:01 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: SIN3]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2092
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
He seems to negate the number of people that also identify as Satanists that commit murder and sacrifice. To say "Well, those people aren't REAL Satanists!" is just a form of denial.


Then we come back to the same old questions: What is Satanism? Does calling yourself a Satanist make you one?

Sure, there are cases of self-professed Satanists committing ritual murders or simple murders. The case I'm most familiar with and that stuck in my memory was the one that happened in my country some 15 or 16 years ago. I wrote about it in another thread. It's also the most characteristic because it was a real ritual murder involving Satanic symbols and so on. Two teenagers who claimed to be Satanists killed their younger friends; a guy and a girl. The victims belonged to the cult too, they were lured to an old abandoned bunker, being sure it was going to be a casual ritual. They were told to kneel down and then they were stabbed with a knife. The perpetrators, after they were caught, confessed their crime and said they did it because they wanted to go to Hell. The reaction of some journalists was: "They aren't Satanists."

And now the question is whether these guys were Satanists or not. They claimed to be ones but were they? No matter how you slice it, the answer seems to be no. Even if you apply some sinister standards to them, it's still obvious they were puppets on the strings of the dark part of their psyche. Sure, they were attracted to the dark and forbidden but they were far from being its masters.
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#93176 - 09/24/14 05:58 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Czereda]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Well, according to the TST anyone is a Satanist if they say so. Besides that, they also take the position that there's all sorts of Satanisms. Plenty of these would-be Satanists make that claim. Including but not limited to Theists, Luciferians, Spiritual, et. al.

If you recall the podcast I did, this was also central to the discussion of the so-called "Progression of Satanism".

So I guess it boils back to autonomy. If you're self-governed and not pinned down by any sort of orthodoxy, then calling yourself a Satanist is enough.

It doesn't really matter what I personally think, at the end of the day. These folks are seeking to be acknowledged and accepted as Satanists regardless if they fit the bill.
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#93660 - 10/12/14 10:32 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: SIN3]
OldTimer666 Offline
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Registered: 06/15/14
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ASL came along at just the right time in American pop culture as well as the right time for religious change in this nation. The philosophy he put forth will never be outdated. I often wonder how things would have played out differently had he lived longer. Of course we can lament for hours over the direction that the CoS has taken under Gilmore and Barton, or the family infighting that followed his death---- But, that's not what I am referring to. I wonder if the advance of the internet would have pulled an aging LaVey out his seclusion and back into the spotlight. Would the instant access to millions, have provided him a more stabile financial foundation, and would all the changes since his death, have spurred a new evolution in LaVeyan Satanism?
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#93663 - 10/12/14 11:18 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: OldTimer666]
FemaleSatan Offline
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Registered: 10/19/11
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 Quote:
American pop culture


The philosophy he put forth will never be outdated.



You do realize that simply by mentioning pop culture you point to the potential loss of relevancy that LaVeyan Satanism is suffering at this point in time?

Culture evolves and what is considered taboo evolves along with it. The things that LaVey points to as being Satanic are now pretty fucking mainstream and it makes the philosophy he put forth not do what it did in the 60s.

Look around you man, most of the values LaVey props up (sexual freedom, individuality, etc) are what most people value today.
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#93664 - 10/12/14 12:08 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: FemaleSatan]
OldTimer666 Offline
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Registered: 06/15/14
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To pretend that LaVey and his success wasn't at least partially due to the pop culture appeal of the time is silly. Yes, some of what was "shocking" back in 1969, is not as shocking today. I think that even LaVey realized that the "shock and awe" aspect would fade in time, and was only a hook to pull people in.

Although some of the shock value has worn off, the underlying principles are just as relevant today as they were 40+ years ago.
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#93669 - 10/13/14 08:46 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: OldTimer666]
FemaleSatan Offline
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Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 556
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 Quote:
To pretend that LaVey and his success wasn't at least partially due to the pop culture appeal of the time is silly.


I didn't claim that LaVey's success wasn't due to the pop culture appeal. I even think it's a fundamental reason that he 'gets it' while others do not.

 Quote:
Yes, some of what was "shocking" back in 1969, is not as shocking today. I think that even LaVey realized that the "shock and awe" aspect would fade in time, and was only a hook to pull people in.


See this is where we part ways man. I firmly believe that Satanism should be shocking, should buck the current societal trends and even embrace cutting against that grain. That's the fundamental aspect of what LaVey did that is relevant, he was counter cultural, it's the only underlying principle I see in the mess that Satanism is.
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#93675 - 10/13/14 10:34 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: OldTimer666]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
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 Quote:
I wonder if the advance of the internet would have pulled an aging LaVey out his seclusion and back into the spotlight. Would the instant access to millions, have provided him a more stabile financial foundation, and would all the changes since his death, have spurred a new evolution in LaVeyan Satanism?



Lest we forget that LaVey died in poor health, broke and with troubles in every sphere of his social habitat. He didn't bathe regularly, he attempted to justify this by saying: "Let your natural body odor flow..." It didn't exactly help matters in his already troubled marriage. He didn't take care of his teeth, his snaggle tooth mug just added to his aesthetic. Like a used car salesman he just moved from gig to gig, he was doing what he "wanted", not what was necessary right? He was the quintessential Libertine. LaVeyan-ism is as outdated as the Libertine movement.

It wasn't HIS philosophy that compelled him, he was compelled by already existing concepts that sprang up thousands of years before him. No matter the form, their persistent presence in every human society should tell you that it has nil to do with the messenger.
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