Page 10 of 16 « First<89101112>Last »
Topic Options
#50443 - 03/04/11 10:47 PM Re: Are LaVey's Core SB Principles Outdated? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

All of the above is why I have said that unless you are absolutely dedicated to Satan and Satanism, and adamant that nothing less reflects who and what you truly are, you should not call yourself a "Satanist". Out in the world beyond the original Church of Satan, or this 600C, it will just do you far more damage than it will bring you pleasure. [As my father used to say: "Sometimes the fucking you get is not worth the fucking you take."]


You and I will probably agree to disagree on many things during our lives, but here, "truer words was never spoked." You want to represent, you'd better be on top of your game... ALWAYS.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


Top
#50505 - 03/05/11 11:08 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Dave Pellani Offline
Banned. Moron.
pledge


Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 66
Loc: Hawaii USA
Dr. Aquino, you’re up to your old tricks again, addressing such thought provoking questions to us. If I were to come up with a short answer to that question, I would answer yes, and no.

As I sit down to write this, I am greeted by a monster flash of a lightning bolt, and thunder, and a driving rainstorm, perhaps a sign of Satan’s blessing upon what you do, or a spinoff of the 12 Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus.

I put a little more thought into this over some morning coffee, and it seems to me that the influence of scholars such as Nietzsche on the advancement of Satanism is relatively undisputable, although I think he had a mundane, extreme and limited view in terms of how to get beyond the dogma and moralistic delusions of Judeo Christianity, as though they had invented the concept of “god” themselves, while he hints at the relevance of the gods of other cultures. Unfortunately, I think he may have confused as many seekers as he enlightened. Although he was a brilliant visionary, and there is a great deal to be learned from him, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I would say no to your question, because of the timeless nature of the traditions that LaVey spoke of, which, to a certain extent, cannot be out dated. I think the same could be said of Crowley, although, when I read the Book of the Law, or Equinox of the Gods, sometimes I am left with more questions than answers, which is thought provoking, enlightening, and invigorating in it’s own rite, and a fair enough challenge to discern. But a 180 from the straight forward approach undertaken by LaVey. It’s pretty obvious that there is little to no comparison between these authors.

I would say yes to the point of drawing an analogy between LaVey’s vision with that of the esotericism of the Temple of Set. In that sense, perhaps LaVey had one too many self imposed limitations as a teacher of the Black Arts. But he always seems to end up compensating for it, somehow. The information age has provided us with a great many supplemental tools with which to further expand our horizons. The TOS has obviously evolved into an advanced, multi dimensional portal to the expansion of the methodolgy envisioned by LaVey. It is one thing to be an individualist, as you make some very interesting and fascinating points in your book, Church of Satan, and your associates on the Temple of Set website, as to the negative effects of excessive, exaggerated, out of control egocentricity, self absorption, and indulgence. Clearly, these attributes were too much for some of the CoS establishment to balance, or juggle, if you will. And you do point out, rather eloquently, that LaVey did not bear sole responsibility for the failure of the organization to flourish as he originally intended. At least, I would assume that he originally intended it to flourish. You would know that better than anyone.

But, by and large, I suggest to anyone that if you want to understand what Satanism really is, look no further than the “Church of Satan


Edited by Dave Pellani (03/05/11 11:10 PM)
_________________________
Welcome To The Abyss

Top
#50507 - 03/06/11 01:22 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Dave Pellani]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Dave Pellani
Dr. Aquino, you’re up to your old tricks again, addressing such thought provoking questions to us ...

Assuming that you're referring to the thread question, it was Fnord's, not mine. Just tossed my 2¢ in along the way. \:\)
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

Top
#50523 - 03/06/11 07:55 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Thanks for your response Dr. Aquino. It was thought provoking post.

I don’t want to move this thread too far away from its original intention, but I was thinking about the notion of Hollywood’s imagination and the way Satanism has been represented in mainstream film.

I am interested in the way a certain definition of Satanism has been expressed visually. And particularly the representation of the definition of Satanism maintained by the early Church.

The question: has any mainstream film ever nailed an accurate representation of Satanism?

I recall reading in the CoS ebook about the Church’s general reaction to a film like The Exorcist, which was such a funny and reactionary/hysterical sort of thing; and a film like Rosemary’s Baby, which had a seemingly more mundane, and yet more sophisticated sort of feel to it, and actually a far more frightening impact. I certainly feel there is a differing definition of Satanism underpinning each movie.

I tend to like the old LaVey favourites, such as the film noir and German Expressionist movies, like the original Scarface, The Sea Wolf, Scarlet Street and Metropolis etc.

I know these films are old and rather neglected, but they still seem to sum up something essential regarding Satanism. I feel they form an important part of what Dr. LaVey had to say and they illustrate his codification of Satanism.

(The Gangster appears to have been re-released! I have been snooping around at Amazon for about 12 months now, hoping that this film would come back. Good times!)

(Thanks to Diavolo and Jake for their thought provoking posts as well.)

Top
#50531 - 03/06/11 11:26 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
The question: has any mainstream film ever nailed an accurate representation of Satanism?

Well, let's start with these:

 Originally Posted By: Temple of Set Reading List, Category #6: Satanism
F6A. The Devil’s Rain. 1975. MA: “In 1974 CE Robert Fuest, who directed the Dr. Phibes films, decided to film a horror movie with Satanism as its theme. He took an anemic novel about Wiccan-witchcraft in New England and hired Anton LaVey as technical advisor to spice it up, which he did - adding touches of LaVey artwork, Mexican extras chanting Enochian Keys, and ‘Satanic Priest’ Ernest Borgnine intoning extracts from the invocation in my ‘Ceremony of the Nine Angles’ in #6L. The setting was moved to Durango, Mexico (‘Redstone’), and the colorful cast included Ida Lupino, William Shatner [just before the Star Trek movie revival], John Travolta [his screen debut - a fight & fall downstairs], and cameos for Anton (a gold-helmeted Priest) and Diane (Borgnine’s colonial-era wife) LaVey. While the film was [and is] lots of fun for those in the know about all this, it bombed at the box office and is today only rarely shown on television. See discussion in #6N.”

F6B. Asylum of Satan. 1975. Charles Kissinger, Carla Borelli. DVD: “Something Weird Video” #ID1598SWDVDMA: “Around 1971CE, when I was Priest III° of the C/S Nineveh Grotto in Louisville, Kentucky, a local commercial film company decided to try for the big time by making a Satanic horror movie - using local theatrical talent. Since they had a Church of Satan in town, they asked us if we would handle the ritual scene. I wrote the script, Nineveh designed the chamber, and we imported the Rosemary’s Baby devil-suit [with a new head] from Hollywood. The result of all this was a turkey of a movie with, if I say so, a rather zesty ritual sequence. The company is no longer in existence, but somehow this thing survived as a videocassette - and later, in 2002, as a digitally-remastered, widescreen DVD, complete with a commentary by the original filmmakers which is at least as charming as the film itself Dry-ice, rubber snakes & bugs, and plaid trousers on the hero will all scare you frightfully. See discussion in #6N.”

F6C. The Devil Rides Out. Hammer Films, 1968. Screenplay by Richard Matheson. Director: Terence Fisher. Christopher Lee. (LVT-2) MA: “Probably one of the best Hammer films ever made - now available in a Hammer Collection DVD (Anchor Bay #DV10666). It is a very accurate screenplay of Dennis Wheatley’s first and most famous Satanism novel. Look for Charles Gray’s silky-evil portrayal of Mocata, the character whom Wheatley specifically modeled after Aleister Crowley, an acquaintance of his. [One other Wheatley Satanism novel, To the Devil a Daughter, was also made into a film, but it is a ghastly mess which bears no comparison to the book. Wheatley’s novels are generally available in British editions, with occasional American publication. Other novels in his ‘Satanism’ series include The Satanist, They Used Dark Forces, and The Ka of Gifford Hillary.”

F6D. Fade to Black. 1983. Dennis Christopher and Linda Kerridge, Mickey Rourke. Director: Vernon Zimmerman. MA: “In the flavor of Anger’s Hollywood Babylon books, this is a horror movie about a young, aliented film buff, Eric Binford, who, in a different application of lycanthropy, assumes various characters from classic films to give himself ‘their powers’. Readers of #6N will recognize the parallels to the 1974+ interests of Anton LaVey, to include the presence of Marilyn Monroe as Eric’s ideal woman and ‘death angel’.”

F6E. Rosemary’s Baby. 1968. Mia Farrow, John Cassavetes, Ruth Gordon, Sidney Blackmer, Maurice Evans, Ralph Bellamy. Produced by William Castle. Directed by Roman Polanski. MA: “This film is so well known to contemporary Satanists that little need be said. After the smash success of the novel, Polanski filmed it with virtually no modifications whatever. Contrary to rumor, Anton LaVey did not play the part of the Devil in it, but consulted briefly with Polanski in Los Angeles before the film was shot at the Dakota building in New York City. Unusual music by Christopher Komeda, who died shortly afterwards. Chocolate mousse was added to Levin’s story because of the excellent CM at the ‘Ile de France’ restaurant across West 72nd from the Dakota - where the Priesthood had a dinner meeting at the 3rd Eastern Conclave of the C/S at Halloween 1972. See further discussion in #6N.”

F6F. The Abominable Dr. Phibes. 1971. Vincent Price, Joseph Cotten, Hugh Griffith, Terry-Thomas. Director: Robert Fuest. MA: “A campy horror movie with Price as a disfigured ex-vaudevillain (nice pun) seeking vengeance against a team of physicians he believes responsible for the death of his wife. What makes the movie is the lush atmosphere of Art Nouveau/Art Deco with which Phibes surrounds himself in the magical ‘universe’ he has created for himself. See further discussion in #6N.”

F6G. Dr. Phibes Rises Again. 1972. Vincent Price, Robert Quarry, Terry-Thomas. Director: Robert Fuest. MA: “The success of #F6F prompted this sequel, even more lavish than the original. Phibes travels to Egypt in search of the river of immortality, dispatching assorted inconvenient archæologists and policemen on the way. See further discussion in #6N.”

F6H. The Brotherhood of Satan. 1971. Strother Martin, L.Q. Jones. MA: “After the success of Rosemary’s Baby, Hollywood floundered around trying to capitalize on the Satanism theme with a couple of failures like The Mephisto Waltz. #F6H was the first film to start ‘getting it right’, and it was the brainchild of a little-known producer/director, L.Q. Jones, who also starred as the sheriff in the film. Strother Martin plays a surprisingly effective Satanic Priest.”

F6I. The Black Cat. Universal, 1934. Boris Karloff, Bela Lugosi. MA: “A remarkable essay in Art Deco/Satanism starring Karloff as the Satanist and Lugosi as his only-slightly-less-sinister opponent. The story line, centering on a house modeled after the Ennis-Brown house in Hollywood, has nothing to do with the Poe version. Included is a stylized Black Mass - about as close as Hollywood would come to UFA-expressionism.”

F6J. The Magus. ca. 1968. Michael Caine, Anthony Quinn, Candice Bergen, Anna Karina. Director: Guy Green. Screenplay by John Fowles. MA: “The Magus, like Lord of the Rings, is one of those novels which is so subtle and complex that you have to read it about 2-3 times before you really begin to absorb it. The film was an excellent translation of the book to the screen - but only for persons who had previously digested the book. To a first-time viewer it was dreadfully confusing. To make matters worse, subsequent television showings have butchered the film down to such a mess that it is virtually incoherent. Nevertheless, if you have read the book, the film is a fine set of illustrations to accompany it. Perfectly cast, with Quinn as Conchis, Caine as Nicholas, and Bergen as Lily/Julie. Now available in an uncut DVD.”

F6K. Satanis, the Devil’s Mass. 1970. DVD: “Something Weird Video” DVD #ID1615SWDVD. MA: “Satanis was a commercial documentary of the Church of Satan in San Francisco, filmed in 1968CE and shown almost exclusively in a San Francisco art-theater. Satanis includes ritual sequences, interviews with Anton, Diane, and Karla LaVey, and footage of the premises of the original Central Grotto house on California Street in San Francisco. An amusing sequence shows the blessing of Isaac Bonewits’ penis by Anton LaVey. IB was later tossed out of the C/S and went on to become a self-proclaimed ‘druid’. Whether the spell is still effective is not known.”

F6L. The Seven Faces of Dr. Lao. 1964. Tony Randall, Barbara Eden. Produced by George Pal. (LVT-3) MA: “On the whole, a pretty effective film treatment of #6W - a bit more lighthearted than the somewhat savage novel, however.”

F6M. The Omen. 1976. MA: “See #6X.”

F6N. Damien: Omen II. 1978. MA: “See #6Y.”

F6O. The Final Conflict. 1981. MA: “See #6Z.”

It will be noted that some of these films focus more on "reflections" of Satanism in non-"formal" situations, rather than on Satanism per se. Using this criterion, doubtless many more such "reflections" or "applications" could be cited.

I of course saw #F6E back in 1968, but the film that really did it for me was #F6C (which I saw the following year in the 82d Airborne Division theater at Fort Bragg).

The ghost of Anton LaVey haunts #F6F, #F6G, #F6L, and most disconcertingly #F6D, wherein Eric Binford is as close to a Compleat Witch "dæmonic self" of Anton as you'll ever see.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

Top
#50534 - 03/06/11 11:39 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Yes, I have seen the Phibes films and Satanis and they were great! I will never forget the first time I saw that total environemt of Phibes'. Quite incredible.

There are so many films here which I want to buy and watch - so much to do, so little time.

Am particularly interested in The Magus. Anthony Quinn - one of the best actors ever.

Thanks for these Dr. Aquino. I tend to get wrapped up in the books on the Temples reading list and not its films.

Top
#52498 - 04/08/11 05:36 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Fnord]
mightisright Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 24
I disagree, I think that LaVeyan Satanism is truly why Satanism is recognized world-wide. This is important!
Top
#52504 - 04/08/11 06:15 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: mightisright]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1753
Loc: New York
To say that Lavey's Satanism is outdated is the same as saying that Satanism is outdated. I disagree with that.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

Top
#52505 - 04/08/11 06:37 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Asmedious]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
To say that Lavey's Satanism is outdated is the same as saying that Satanism is outdated. I disagree with that.


Hell, As... it means I'M OUTDATED! I may be a little moldy, like an aged cheddar, but that doesn't mean I'm not still vital and strong. Like LaVey's Satanism, I may not be everyone's cup o' tea, but if one is intelligent (and that truly is the hallmark of a satanic mind), they simply find someone else better suited to their sensibilities.

Strange... people seem to have this need to say how wrong LaVey was, yet in reality, nothing else is out there that's entrenched in the public psyche. Even those who claim to "hold the keys," as the Mormons say, can't hold a candle to LaVey's captaincy of the ship.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


Top
#52506 - 04/08/11 06:37 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Asmedious]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
It depends. Some people might find much use in what Lavey wrote and it might show them an option they never considered before. Others might see little use in it since they awakened already and defined their own path.

As such, outdated is a matter of how practical or important it is to an individual. To some it is, to others not at all.

D.

Top
#52511 - 04/08/11 07:00 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Diavolo]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
My point exactly D.

Seems to me that if it was of such little import to people, they would simply move on, yet many simply don't have that ability. They glom onto The Church of Satan and need to use it to somehow show how they're evolved... if they WERE, they would be beyond clinging to any connection to such an "outmoded" institution. They would have ideas of their own and not need to even mention LaVey or The Church.

That would be a novel treat for me. Someone with something to say who can talk the talk AND walk the walk. I'm not holding my breath waiting.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


Top
#52513 - 04/08/11 07:13 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Diavolo]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1753
Loc: New York
For me the Doc’s books and videos of him are like comfort food. They are things that I enjoy looking at and watching on quiet nights. I find them relaxing and they simply make me happy.
I realized most of the things that were in the TSB years before I read it but that doesn’t make it outdated, because the ideas themselves are not outdated as far as I’m concerned. I would go as far as to say that in today’s politically correct climate, the core ideas of T.S.B are just as relevant as they ever were if not more so.

Old and practiced doesn’t mean the same as "outdated."


Edited by Asmedious (04/08/11 07:14 PM)
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

Top
#52606 - 04/10/11 01:20 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Asmedious]
Zakary Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 75
There are many great points made here..... Lavey certainly intended to simplify practise and break down concepts into a more consumable and more importantly socially relevant medium. Things always appear out moded after a time..... Like many here I love Lavey in a very nostalgic way..... we grew up nurtured on TSB. I have come to appreciate the works of the ONA after a time...... appreciating the complexity therein..... The TOS offering modern expansion of Crowleys work.... simplifying the same. I must say I'm a LaVey fan...... but each to their own.
Top
#68340 - 07/05/12 01:29 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Asmedious]
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
To say that Lavey's Satanism is outdated is the same as saying that Satanism is outdated. I disagree with that.
I agree. I read first Lavey's works in 90ties and I was teenager - it was realy fresh breeze for me and at he beginning of our century (2000 and upwards) their writings meant me even more and now I can truly say, that I highly value his great works about core principles of Satanism.

We are Satanists and not religionists, it means we are not static, but truly dynamic - every one of us takes from LaVey's works, what is necessary for us individually!
_________________________
In Sorte Diaboli

Top
#68344 - 07/05/12 04:32 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Latvian]
IcyClawz Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/19/12
Posts: 25
Loc: Israel
 Originally Posted By: Latvian
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
To say that Lavey's Satanism is outdated is the same as saying that Satanism is outdated. I disagree with that.
I agree. I read first Lavey's works in 90ties and I was teenager - it was realy fresh breeze for me and at he beginning of our century (2000 and upwards) their writings meant me even more and now I can truly say, that I highly value his great works about core principles of Satanism.

We are Satanists and not religionists, it means we are not static, but truly dynamic - every one of us takes from LaVey's works, what is necessary for us individually!

Exactly. The philosophy is pretty much common in many aspects between Satanists, but while one may use the rituals in TSB, others, like me, for instance, prefer other ways achieving similar things. The important part is that we are The Free People.
_________________________
Just take me out of this damn fascist country... I want to live in Germany, badly.

Top
Page 10 of 16 « First<89101112>Last »


Moderator:  Woland, TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.026 seconds of which 0.003 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.