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#68345 - 07/05/12 05:39 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Fnord]
Chemical Offline
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Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 46
Loc: Portugal
I believe that is possible to look past the "christianity thing" when reading the SB, and thus the "outdatedness" At least, that was what I attempted to do.
Religion is not as much a weight today as it was back then, however the content on the book remains valid if you take society and media into account. I mean, even though religion has lost most of it's influence on people's lives, peer pressure from media and stereothypes increases, and one's individuality is "threatened" at all times


Edited by Chemical (07/05/12 05:42 AM)
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#68352 - 07/05/12 09:47 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: IcyClawz]
Latvian Offline
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Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: IcyClawz
... The philosophy is pretty much common in many aspects between Satanists,...The important part is that we are The Free People.
You're right! LaVey wrote: 'The Satanist should have the ability to decide what is just' and Satanism is individualistic and not legalistic, even when we speak about statements, rules etc...

People, who start interesting about Satanism or just want to fake their true motives and want to do their brainwashing for 'fallen ones' or even we, when we begin their LHP, quite often see Satanism too legalistically... At the beginning many assume Satanism like other religions, where are a lot of rules, laws, even taboos with heavy consequences because of disobedience... It is not compulsory for us, Satanists to follow all laws or statements, what is written even in in the Satanic Bible etc... We are free and we usually don't discuss about someone, who broken one of Nine Satanic Statements or did some Satanic Sins..., we are really free and live lives, which fit the best for us and our pack.
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#68444 - 07/06/12 07:49 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Chemical]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2092
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Chemical

Religion is not as much a weight today as it was back then, however the content on the book remains valid if you take society and media into account.


Yet, more people across the world identify with one of the three abrahamic religions today than ever in the past. There may be an argument about proportional shares when compared to overall population, but I think religion is as prevalent today as it ever was (particularly with Dec. 2012 coming and the age of the population).
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#68495 - 07/07/12 07:57 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Fnord]
RAIDER Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 152
Loc: PA
LaVey wrote some good shit.....I've gathered: he knew how to read people, was insightful concerning interactions with other humans, reasonable in his expectations of what motivates people, their actual needs, etc.
The shit about Satanism is entertaining and somewhat researched.....not all the info shared is acurate...but his brand of Satanism put in place a foundation for others to build upon. He got things started...in a modern, out in public way.
People haven't changed, what motivates humans hasn't changed...fo rme LaVey's Satanism ( or approach to it) is still valid.
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#68538 - 07/08/12 12:25 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Fnord]
Chemical Offline
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Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 46
Loc: Portugal
Yes, that is true indeed. However, (maybe it's just from where I stand) the feeling I get is that people seem more interested in identifying with something than to actually live up to whatever the principles of their so-called beliefs are. Hence what I said.

Edited by Chemical (07/08/12 12:34 PM)
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#68649 - 07/10/12 11:41 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Chemical]
Latvian Offline
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Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: Chemical
...the feeling I get is that people seem more interested in identifying with something than to actually live up to whatever the principles of their so-called beliefs are...
Of course we, Satanists have to have our own ideology or principles of ideology and common aims, even rules - it's of course more important for the group or our pack and it’s not so important for every individual in general.

We, Satanists are free, when we are in our own private territory - we can act how we please and live how we want and we don’t annoy anyone when we are in neutral territory, but there the 600 Club is real Satanic community and LaVey’s writings make us one!
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#68663 - 07/10/12 05:16 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Latvian]
Chemical Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 46
Loc: Portugal
Yes, the writings of LaVey do unite us, with such beliefs, in a way.
But, isn't it more about indulging your own nature than to have a properly organized community? It seems to me to be more "pure" than most religions.
The idea of liberty and self-acceptance was what lured me to TSB and his work at first, the knowledge pursue, and not the idea of some outcast society that's against everything and everyone. Something more truthful, "earthly", and not the metaphysical and psychologically impairing junk most churchs and doctrines shove down your throat.
I hope I'm expressing myself clearly \:\)
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#68679 - 07/11/12 02:29 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Chemical]
Latvian Offline
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Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: Chemical
...isn't it more about indulging your own nature than to have a properly organized community?... I hope I'm expressing myself clearly \:\)
Perfect! Of course Satanism is about indulgence instead of abstinence, Satanism is about vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams, Satanism is undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit etc...

Of course we are free in comunity, but we have to learn to be loyal to our own or our pack... It's my opinion!
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#68684 - 07/11/12 03:27 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Latvian]
DreamMystery Offline
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Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 167
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I agree with Latvian. There is power in a group of individuals who agree on basic attitudes. As long as there is no establishment of Orthodoxy or Orthopraxy. Humans are social animals like it or not.
We derive benefit from collaboration and interdependance. As long as the individual (seen as equal) is the fundamental Value or end in itself of the group I see no problems.

Those outside the group of "Satanism" can be seen as whatever value you give them.

So I guess I am saying hierarchy is fine between groups but is not good within the group if you are an individualist.

Attempts to hierarchy within Satanism lead away from Satanism.

Attempts to establish hierarchy outside of Satanism lead towards Satanism.

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#68685 - 07/11/12 04:02 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: DreamMystery]
Latvian Offline
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Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: DreamMystery
...So I guess I am saying hierarchy is fine between groups but is not good within the group if you are an individualist. Attempts to hierarchy within Satanism lead away from Satanism...
Can You explain more? Please explain a bit more, what You exactly think!

I personally think, that hierarchy is in every society and community and isn't bad. We cannot avoid stratification... Hierarchy is drive for every member of group to be in right place in right time and it motivates every individual reach heights and better position!

In SU and now in North Korea atheistically orientated regimes tried to make alive some utopias - all are equal (of course without elite of country, who are more equal as others) and result is quite bad... You can compare with South Korea, where are free market, freedom, but always hierarchy too…, or before 1989 You saw real difference between West Germany (BDR)and East Germany (DDR).

I worked 17 years as teacher and was for some years ( six and half) headmaster too and I know how important is hierarchy for successful school work and I can give many examples – even now in my new job..., where I'm IT admin - everyone is sorted by rights etc... Even here in the 600 Club You can see smart hierarchy!
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#68689 - 07/11/12 05:23 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Latvian]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3405
 Quote:
Of course we are free in comunity, but we have to learn to be loyal to our own or our pack... It's my opinion!

I might be the first to speak about kindred honor, but in reality it still is to be deserved and proven to be worthy of it. Agreeing with my words and/or even claiming, pushing of being on "the same side" is not going to cut it. I am not loyal to myself as I change through time.. words of mine in the past I no longer belief in nor morals and ideas I am no longer supportive of.

Proclaiming individuality, kindred honor and loyalty to the pack is "nice". Lest not to forget the idea of "being the alfa" when doing so. Otherwise you are still stuck with egalitarian group think... a little something keen of being forgotten by the self-proclaimed averagist entering it.
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#68691 - 07/11/12 05:33 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Dimitri]
Latvian Offline
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Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I might be the first to speak about kindred honor, but in reality it still is to be deserved and proven to be worthy of it...I am not loyal to myself as I change through time...
First point!
- Yes, everyone of us goes through the test and we have to deserve our place and not inherit - like some king's son, who in reality dosn't know nothing about his dad's stragle and smart ways to organize system, which works...
Second point
- I agree - We all are in movement or on they way to the aim and today's truth replaces yesterdays looks, ideals and true values - it's normal progress!
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#68692 - 07/11/12 05:53 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Latvian]
DreamMystery Offline
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Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 167
Loc: Here
I guess the conflict I see is this. Hierarchy results in the benefit of the group. The corporation achieves its goal of profit through implementing hierarchy. But is the individual always profiting from this? Certainly if they pay employees properly.

I'm not advocating economic communism, obviously capitalism works much better.

What if the organisation is Satanism? What is the "profit" or productive output of Satanism? Isn't the product successful and free individuals?

So I am saying that the goal of Satanism is not the spread of Satanism, the product of Satanism is successful, morally free individuals.

It is kind of paradoxical, a group which doesn't serve itself as a group, but inspires each individual separately to succeed even at the cost of groups he may be a part of.

I think this is a deep issue in Satanism worthy of debate.

I see any group as a Hobbesian "Leviathan" or super-organism.
The group is one big individual which seeks its own dominance within the community of groups. This dominance seeking comes at the price of individuals within the group, who are sacrificed for the greater good of the group.

It doesn't have to be a conscious process for each individual, most likely it is hidden. The work of Foucault on diffuse power structures shows the mechanisms at work.

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#68695 - 07/11/12 06:26 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: DreamMystery]
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: DreamMystery
..So I am saying that the goal of Satanism is not the spread of Satanism, the product of Satanism is successful, morally free individuals. It is kind of paradoxical, a group which doesn't serve itself as a group, but inspires each individual separately to succeed ... I think this is a deep issue in Satanism worthy of debate.
Yes, it really worthy of discussions! First thanks for Your answer and explanation of Your view!

I agree, that Satanic community has to inspire each individual separately to succeed and Satanism is only voluntary movement and nothing to do with converting masses or brainwashed people, who always are in seek for people, who will think for them, who will say what is right or wrong etc. One of the main fears of herd is responsibility, but Lavey said very good in 6. satanic statement: ‘Satan represents responsibility to the responsible’.
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#71096 - 09/21/12 04:21 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Latvian]
Le Deluge Offline
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Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
It isn't outdated. I know people who walked down that path. I often find them to be the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" types. I'm not too sure LaVey intended it to be a "complete" system or praxis. I can see value for some in the organizational structure of CoS, others do better blazing trails. His wasn't the last word on it by any means.

It isn't my personal path. I may list him as a favorite author. I find a lot of the LaVey-derivative "Satanisms" out there to be idiotic.

I believe he correctly identifies altruism as a form of subservience. He forms something of a dialectic between egoism and altruism (a la Rand). Yet, his answer seems to lie in the "Might is Right" of Redbeard. It is ideal for people clawing their way up the ladder. I think you may reach a point where it loses its luster. I see a divergence of folks going balls out sans "morality" and a milder Epicurean streak of self-fullfilment and quietude. I think how one views "Satan" metaphysically is secondary to the choice of praxis. Outdated? No. Final word? No.
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