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#93680 - 10/13/14 04:27 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: FemaleSatan]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2721
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: FemaleSatan
 Quote:
To pretend that LaVey and his success wasn't at least partially due to the pop culture appeal of the time is silly.

I didn't claim that LaVey's success wasn't due to the pop culture appeal. I even think it's a fundamental reason that he 'gets it' while others do not.

Many historical "events" have involved not just individuals like Napoleon or Hitler, but social, economic, etc. circumstances which gave them an opportunity and an audience. So it was with Anton LaVey. This is not to minimize his own genius or courage, just to say that he had a much better shot in 60s San Francisco than he would have had ten years earlier in Salt Lakes City. ;\) Ira Levin came along at the right moment too!
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#95638 - 01/13/15 10:46 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Fnord]
Occult1969 Offline
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Registered: 12/05/14
Posts: 8
All I can say about the Church of Satan in regards to Gilmore is that he is very arrogant toward Theistic Satanists. I'm all about whatever works for you but don't put down others for their beliefs!! Also, I feel Anton LaVey was full of shit regarding his Atheistic philosophy! There were many who felt he believed in the Actual Prince of Darkness himself!!
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#95639 - 01/13/15 10:48 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Occult1969]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
but don't put down others for their beliefs!!


Why not? Is he arrogant or antagonistic? If your beliefs can be assaulted, you probably don't believe it as vehemently as you think.
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#95641 - 01/13/15 11:24 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Occult1969]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 4001
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Of course you are right. Peoples beliefs are sacred, and should never even be questioned unless the question is punctuated both fore and aft with sincere apologies. Nothing good has ever come from honest scrutiny..its just so awkward you know?

You're also right about old LaVey there, all those interviews and essays he wrote that were quite explicit about his non theistic views were a total ruse. He was just trying too hard you know? Like he was covering something. I find it possible he may have actually been a reptilian.
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#95644 - 01/13/15 01:54 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Dan_Dread]
BlackSacrament Offline
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Registered: 12/25/14
Posts: 21
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
You're also right about old LaVey there, all those interviews and essays he wrote that were quite explicit about his non theistic views were a total ruse. He was just trying too hard you know? Like he was covering something. I find it possible he may have actually been a reptilian.


I thought it was common knowledge that we were being secretly ruled over by Illuminati Reptilian Overlords.

If you'll excuse me, I need to adjust my tin foil hat.
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#95645 - 01/13/15 02:34 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Occult1969]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2721
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Occult1969
I feel Anton lavey was full of shit regarding his Atheistic philosophy! There were many who felt he believed in the Actual Prince of Darkness himself!

As is quite adequately evidenced and documented in The Church of Satan, Anton sincerely believed in and openly acknowledged Satan as a metaphysical being prior to 1975. So, for that matter, did everyone else in the original Church, which is exactly why the crisis of 1975 ended it as an actual church. Thereafter Anton just operated the name as a personal, and cynical, business, for whose "marks" he cared nothing and was indeed openly contemptuous.

This is the travesty that Densley promoted, Gilmore bought into, and which still flounders along in a state of pathetic and ludicrous identity crisis: not a church, not believing in Satan, reciting insincere incantations to wall-hanging Baphomets which are no longer Gates but just inert pieces of painted pressboard.

The "outdating" of the original Church, however, had nothing to do with human issues/incidents of sincerity per se. An authentic reality exists and continues whether or not it is recognized and endorsed by an audience. Rather what evolved within the Church was an increasing realization that its iconography was inaccurate and inadequate. In short, "Satan" was a construct of Judæo-Christian mythology, which came more and more into focus as phony: a rag-bag of borrowed and butchered superstitions from preexisting Egyptian and Mesopotamian metaphysics.

So if Anton had not imploded the Church with his degree-selling decision in 1975, I have no doubt that it would have continued to evolve beyond J/C into something very much like the subsequent Temple of Set, but with Anton still its High Priest and myself still as a completely gruntled IV°. It might or might not have changed its name, because pre-75 we were already well on the way to expanding Satan well beyond the J/C scarecrow to a much more independent apprehension.

You see some echoes of this, indeed, with 600C, which struggles in many ways to be sincerely "Satanic" without either being imprisoned in old J/C stereotypes on one hand or capitulating into the vacuous play-acting of the Gilmorons on the other. There's a clear, collective desire here to be authentic, while still carrying the traditional name and image forward.

Some of these efforts are better than others, and some of them also get entangled with spasms of Atheism/materialism, as though anything at all metaphysical is somehow a sellout to comic-book-religion (by which I mean the entire "mainstream") self-delusion. It is precisely because the original Church of Satan, for all its naïveté, was so exciting and such a breath of fresh air.

As I see it, having watched this forum for a few years now, even the more intelligent jerks here are here because there's something gnawing at them to be authentic in their persons, and for which Satan seems the best idealization. That's cool. As I often quote the good Dr. Jessup in this regard:

 Originally Posted By: Edward Jessup, Ph.D., Altered States
I’m a man in search of his true self. How archetypically American can you get?

Everybody’s looking for his true self. We’re all trying to fulfill ourselves, understand ourselves, get in touch with ourselves, get ahold of ourselves, face the reality of ourselves, explore ourselves, expand ourselves.

Ever since we dispensed with God, we’ve got nothing but ourselves to explain this meaningless horror of life. We’re all weekending at est or meditating for forty minutes a day or squatting on floors in a communal OM or locking arms in quasi-Sufi dances or stripping off the deceptions of civilized life and jumping naked into a swimming pool filled with other naked searchers for self.

Well, I think that true self, that original self, that first self, is a real, mensurate, quantifiable thing, tangible and incarnate. And I’m going to find the fucker!

FTF is what initiation is all about, actually. ;\)
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#95665 - 01/13/15 09:10 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
antikarmatomic Offline
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Registered: 09/22/13
Posts: 3208
Loc: El Mundo
I dunno, man – I suspect he probably ventured into another coil ahead of schedule and just didn't bother to inform anyone.

Perhaps he had very fucking solid reasons - you think I'd want the FBI at my door for merely looking, like, too hard into the nature of human condition – because it, like, ruined some psyops investigation or whatever? Running grottoes and such? Shit! Who wants to be the next Wilhelm Reich or Jesus Christ for that matter? Any takers?

Does any of that sound life-affirming, much less “fun”.

I figure it was as much about the money as (*sigh what an already boring allegory*) GWAR was

It's lonely at the top, and even lonelier to apprehend that there is no “top”... it just becomes more isolate and asymptomatically so.

From where I sit, he at least tried (though I still can't fathom why bother)

Shit, Christ tried too – but his “niggaz” didn't quite get “it” either and went off espousing silliness. To where 2000 years later... I can't even get a decent divorce with out shelling out a fuck-ton of money to some greedy ass-lawyers.

That shit happens when you start dealing with paradox and levels of indirection of what it is to be “you; man”. (human)

He made the simple fallacy of assuming that those who understand BASIC can grok C and that those that grok C understand ASM while at the same time eschewing the tedious and arbitrary nature of binary and punch-cards all the while while discarding the nature of voltage in the first place.

So far as I can tell he fell into a level of recursion that could only be understood to himself alone and was, in his own way, just describing (in his later works - Satan Speaks) his own solitary hell for even having tried.

Such as become of djinn and obscure c-list philosophers (Christ, too among them)

(and maybe a few enough who were smart enough not to say a damn thing about it - then again, I wasn't there, so how the fuck should I know?)

Seems to me there were people taking the concepts of tail-end recursion and apprehending them as for-loops with explicit degrees and titles and what-not (especially the what-not) trying to navigate a tree of indeterminate and innumerable branches (in the likeness of an oak, even)

*does the OS nessitate the code, or does the code faciliate the OS?

*shrugs you tell me* ;\)

(and I'm not even of the c/s current anyway – I simply have eyes... my mommy gave them to me – perhaps she's intrinsically a shinigami :p )

Anyway, none of this is a personal jab, or whatever (I dig your writings), but from the pot I'm shitting in you might have made a mistake somewhere back there – long before I was born... and who knows? It might have been a necessary one to have made.

Only time will tell.


Edited by antikarmatomic (01/13/15 09:49 PM)
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#95666 - 01/13/15 09:35 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
NEN Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/25/14
Posts: 75
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

As is quite adequately evidenced and documented in The Church of Satan, Anton sincerely believed in and openly acknowledged Satan as a metaphysical being prior to 1975. So, for that matter, did everyone else in the original Church, which is exactly why the crisis of 1975 ended it as an actual church.


Wow. As a historical account of someone who was there, this is phenomenal. It's hard to get this kind of inside information by just reading books. Why did Anton abandon the metaphysical being stance? I'm clearly an outsider looking in, but this is interesting.

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#95667 - 01/13/15 11:21 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: NEN]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2721
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: NEN
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
As is quite adequately evidenced and documented in The Church of Satan, Anton sincerely believed in and openly acknowledged Satan as a metaphysical being prior to 1975. So, for that matter, did everyone else in the original Church, which is exactly why the crisis of 1975 ended it as an actual church.

Wow. As a historical account of someone who was there, this is phenomenal. It's hard to get this kind of inside information by just reading books. Why did Anton abandon the metaphysical being stance? I'm clearly an outsider looking in, but this is interesting.

In this case the COS book is the best source, since it examines the entire history of the Church along with Anton's evolving perceptions and attitudes. The "2013 Postface" includes a summing-up of the problems and pressures that resulted in the 1975 crisis.

It's important to bear in mind, as the book also evidences, that we were all in the same boat of attempting to comprehend and grapple with the Pandora's Jar opened in 1966. I was the next-senior official, and I didn't see the crisis coming, though some warning signs were clearly there in retrospect: 20/20 hindsight:

 Originally Posted By: Robert E. Lee
The war was an unnecessary condition of affairs, and might have been avoided if forbearance and wisdom had been practiced on both sides.
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#95672 - 01/14/15 09:15 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 4001
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
There is an interview with lavey from the early years, I believe it is from that 'occult explosion'(1973) documentary where he explicitly, in no uncertain language, explains his views on theism and why he allowed theists into his organisation.

The whole damned Munster family can write 3 bazillion page PDFs of utterly creative revisionism, but the horses mouth is right there for anyone not so easily bamboozled by f list celebrity to investigate.
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#95675 - 01/14/15 10:12 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Dan_Dread]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
I believe it is from that 'occult explosion'(1973) documentary


Speak of the Devil includes plenty of stock footage from early interviews with LaVey and is still readily available for download and purchase. His views about literal devil worship and devil worshipers are crystal clear.

I will honestly never understand why it matters to NoObs anyway, even if they just read the books it's clear from the get-go (or it should be)

To paraphrase some key points:

-If you're going to be a Sinner, be the best on the block.

-Man has a proclivity towards religion, and 'religion' can be plenty of things (train collecting was used as an analogy), so go do it with a full heart and for self-serving reasons not because you think it's what other people want you to do.

-Don't follow LaVey like a guru, it's the ideas that resonate, the ideas he begged, borrowed and stole from a variety of sources and put it right where they belong - the Devil's business. These same ideas the reader also came to naturally (vs. indoctrination) hence "BORN NOT MADE"... ETC.

If this dead carcass is being dragged around it's because you can't fit a square peg in a round hole without constantly hitting it with a hammer.



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#95715 - 01/15/15 09:39 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Occult1969 Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/05/14
Posts: 8
Dear Mr. Aquino:
Thank you for the insight on Anton LaVey's early goals and his beliefs as opposed to what happened after 1975. Also, I want to thank you for starting the Temple of Set and I feel it was the true revolutionary organization that was needed in 1975. You have done so much for the Satanic/magical community and I feel you are a very sincere individual who has never fluffed over anything.

Warm regards,
Occult1969

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#95721 - 01/15/15 10:32 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Occult1969]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2721
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Occult1969
Dear Mr. Aquino: Thank you ...

My appreciation for your gracious comments. In 2013, when I finally published The Church of Satan, I added an extensive "Postface 2013" to it, taking a fresh look-back at Anton and the Church: addressing not just what happened, but how substantive the entire episode was, and finally whether it was "worth it".

I think it was a very honest effort by people with good intentions (including Anton), that, if it didn't "bite off more than it could chew", certainly never anticipated the size of the bite it took. What began as a satirical, countercultural lark in 1966 wound up grappling with some of the most central, and taboo, questions of human existence. Amidst an external environment that was at best amusedly tolerant, more often contemptuous and outright dangerous.

It's an almost impossible story. I remarked in the book that more than one alumnus/a of the Church, upon reading COS, has commented to me, "If I had't lived through it, I would have found it too bizarre to believe."

Anton LaVey was not a perfect man, but I will go to my grave maintaining, as COS does, that he was a very good and honest man who, like Colonel Kurtz in Apocalypse Now, simply reached a personal breaking point. Many, indeed most people drift through their lives without finding, much less testing theirs; they are scarcely in a position to rush to judgment. In COS' Preface I quote Maurice Conchis, the enigmatic magician from John Fowles' The Magus, concerning the French aristocrat who had inspired his own initiation as a youth:

 Originally Posted By: Conchis
Whenever I see a photograph of a teeming horde of Chinese peasants, or of some military procession, whenever I see a cheap newspaper crammed with advertisements for mass-produced rubbish. Or the rubbish itself that large stores sell. Whenever I see the horrors of the pax Americana, of civilizations condemned to century after century of mediocrity because of over-population and under-education, I see also de Deukans. Whenever I see lack of space and lack of grace, I think of him. One day, many millennia from now, there will perhaps be a world in which there are only such châteaux, or their equivalents, and such men and women. And instead of their having to grow, like mushrooms, from a putrescent compost of inequality and exploitation, they will come from an evolution as controlled and ordered as de Deukans’ tiny world at Givray-le-Duc. Apollo will reign again. And Dionysus will return to the shadows from which he came.


Edited by Michael A.Aquino (01/15/15 10:34 AM)
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#95726 - 01/15/15 11:46 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
G.Belbo Offline
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Registered: 06/04/14
Posts: 18
Loc: Greece
Certainly not. Just as UNIVAC 1108 is still the best pc around. Oh, and wasn't stagnation and dogmatism characteristics of the other side?

(sorry for the one-line)
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