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#48042 - 02/04/11 11:41 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Harvey]
Antonio Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 38
 Quote:
True. But most of the individuals that I mentioned were more apt to apply their various philosophies. They are typically remembered for their deeds.


Are they really remembered for their deeds?. Lets take a look: Machiavelli was a lousy politician, Nietzsche a powerless madman with delusions of grandeur, Sade a sanctimonious poseur...

However, they were all original and deeply influential thinkers and I don't think it's fair to compare them with Anton. It is clear to me that Szandor LaVey's work isn't as groundbreaking as those of the other thinkers. But that was not his goal, he only wanted to provide a religion for certain rebel individuals that have indeed benefited from it.


 Quote:
For instance - LaVey is reputed to have been a passionate Darwinist/Lamarckian, with precious little to substantiate such a claim. How seriously can he have taken Ragnar, Darwin, Nietzche or even himself? Can a man really claim to be elite if his accomplishments amount to a flamboyant but financially unrewarding imposture? I would consider him a failure.


LaVey was ultimately a practical man, not a high brow intellectual. And I admire LaVey for creating a religion for modernity. I don't consider him a failure.

He did create something new, although not as original or powerful as it could have been. That said, his creation was a notorious success despite it's own shortcomings.

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#48043 - 02/04/11 11:43 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Jake999]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
It might be interesting to note several other "failures."

Oscar Wilde, the playwrite... died alone and bankrupt.

Bela Lugosi, the actor (Dracula). Made 70 feature films... died bankrupt.

Joe Louis, Heavyweight Boxing Champion of the World... died bankrupt, courtesy of the I.R.S.

Veronica Lake, Hollywood Starlet... died bankrupt.

Florenz Zeigfield, Producer of Broadway shows... died bankrupt.

Ed Wood, Hollywood Director of many films... died bankrupt.

Judy Garland, Actess and Singer ... died bankrupt.

Sammy Davis, Jr, Singer and Dancer ... died bankrupt.

Charlie Parker, Jazz great... died bankrupt.

Stephen Foster, song writer, "America's First Composer"... died bankrupt.

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, composer... died bankrupt.

Vincent Van Gogh, Painter... died bankrupt.

Nikola Tesla, Inventor... died bankrupt.

Michelangelo... died bankrupt.

Charles Goodyear, Inventor (Vulcanized Rubber)... died bankrupt.

Gridley Bryant, Inventor (Railway Carriage)... died bankrupt.

Jan Ernst Matzeliger, inventor (shoe lasting machine)... died bankrupt.

The list could go on and on. One's contributions and influence of course cannot of course be indicated solely by their bank accounts.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#48050 - 02/04/11 02:59 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Fnord]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
Seems to me that this thread is off on three different tracks:

(1) Is Anton LaVey's Satanic philosophy outdated?

(2) Is Anton LaVey's personal significance outdated?

(3) Is the Satanic Bible outdated?

#(3) is the easiest to answer [and I have done so previously]. The SB was never intended by Anton to be either his magnum opus or the endallandbeall of Satanism. It was a 1969 publicity gesture, much like Satanis, suggested and backed by Peter Mayer at Avon. Anton just took all of the "rainbow sheet" mimeograph handouts he gave out to new Church members and called them the "Book of Lucifer". He took the Church's similarly-mimeoed ritual instructions and called them the "Book of Belial". Then he padded these with Redbeard up front and Dee in back to meet Peter's page requirements for a paperback. That was that. Doctrinally the SB is a snapshot of where Anton and the Church were in 1969, period.

From my Church of Satan you can see that both Anton and the Church went far beyond this simple base by 1975; and thereafter he took both himself and the Church's name in a quite different direction.

I continue to think that COS does the most comprehensive job of explaining and evaluating Anton's significance as an individual. He was, very simply, a genius and an artist in the best and worst senses of both terms. "There is no genius," said Aristotle, "without a mixture of madness." He was also a showman, in the sense that in addition to his true self he deliberately crafted and displayed several artificial personŠ for what he considered appropriate audiences and/or situations. He did this not for base reasons (to posture, cheat, or defraud), but because he saw it as essential to maximizing his control of outcomes, which I would unhesitatingly argue were before 1975 both selfless and idealistic. Again COS substantiates and documents this. [And yes, it is surprisingly and ironically different from the popular media image, which tended to portray him as a Devil-schtick weirdo somewhere between vaudevillian and neo-fascistic.]

Philosophically and doctrinally Anton and the Church didn't necessarily bite off more than they could chew, but they did bite off more than they could chew in 10 years. What seemed at first like just a poke in society's hypocritical eye with Halloween-party trimmings progressively complicated itself into positive ethical questions as well as grapplings that went beyond the platitudes of modern JudŠo/Christianity. "Satanism" went from being just a smart-ass "bounce off the wall" to an authentic Ding an sich ("thing in itself"). And this caught all of us, including Anton, rather by surprise. We had to keep ripping out walls and expanding the house to contain Wilbur Whateley's constantly-growing brother, as it were.

Hence evaluating Anton in a Church/philosophical sense 1966-75 is a bit like evaluating Nazi Germany 1933-45. Both of them got way ahead of themselves. They were not peaceful train rides; they were the mine carts in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. They both crashed long before they had a chance to mature.

Post-1975 I would contend that Anton jettisoned the idea of both a philosophical school of thought and an actual organization based upon it. "Satanism" for him became simply reflective of himself and his lifestyle. Both continued to be very interesting and exotic, but not philosophical in an impersonal sense. It was as this point that would-be Satanists branched out into ASLV idolizers/imitators [as in the Gilmore group] or independent thinkers/doers [as in 600C].

Hence Anton is not "outdated" unless you're seeing him with the limited groupie-vision of a Gilmoron. Rather he is inspirational both in his philosophy and in his artistry. The study of both, as in COS, is stimulating and enriching. The first can and should be built upon, as the Temple of Set has done in its way and as the 600C is doing in a different way. The second is properly there to be enjoyed and admired, but only fools attempt to imitate it.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#48054 - 02/04/11 04:17 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Antonio Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 38
 Quote:
It was as this point that would-be Satanists branched out into ASLV idolizers/imitators [as in the Gilmore group] or independent thinkers/doers [as in 600C].


I am not sure it can be divided that simply. There are smart and stupid people in both groups. Gilmore being one of the wise ones, of course.


 Quote:
Hence Anton is not "outdated" unless you're seeing him with the limited groupie-vision of a Gilmoron.


I don't understand the hate towards Gilmore. He seems an intelligent and charming guy. Clearly not an idiot as so many here want to portray him, suprisingly including Michael Aquino himself. For me he is worthy of being at the helm of the CoS.

If people here believe they are so original that Gilmore is boring to them, why dont they start their own religion?. It seems they can't because of lack of vision and understanding.

Note: I understand Aquino started "The Temple of Set" so my message is not specifically aimed at him.

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#48055 - 02/04/11 04:34 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
While we might disagree on some points, I would actually pretty much agree with the majority of what you've written, Dr. Aquino.

A main problem with many of the LaVey detractors is that they know so damned little about him, the Church and anything beyond The Satanic Bible, that they assume that is all there is or ever will be to the story. Much as with you... you joined the Church of Satan, rebelled and formed the Temple of Set... and FLASH!!!... a weird mutation of ECI locks into place and there's nothing else until Joe Blow is born, reads a book and knows it all.

The information is out there... there is legend and lore, but bedrock as well... but you'd have to get out from behind a computer and find it, and find older people who might actually know something about him and his times. And that's a resource that gets rarer and rarer as the years move on. Soon, all that will be left will be the legend and lore and badly written Wikis, taken for gospel by those too jaded or too self absorbed to comprehend anything else.

Soon, everyone will KNOW that Stanton LaVey was actually Anton's son. Everyone will KNOW that all he ever wrote was The Satanic Bible, The Satanic Rituals and The Satanic Witch (The Compleat Witch... what's that?). All of the bullshit will become reality when there is no one to counter it. It will be the popular mythology that everyone KNOWS, although little will be fact. And to paraphrase what Robert Wuhl said in his HBO special Assume The Position: "When the legend ibecomes fact, teach the legend."

LOL!!! GILMORON... I think I got a chubby from that one.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#48056 - 02/04/11 04:59 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Antonio]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Antonio

I don't understand the hate towards Gilmore. He seems an intelligent and charming guy. Clearly not an idiot as so many here want to portray him, suprisingly including Michael Aquino himself. For me he is worthy of being at the helm of the COS.


No offense meant, Antonio. You seem a good sort, but you're young and he's all you know and you have little experience to draw from. Let me explain it this way.

I've dined in some fantastic restaurants around the world and have tasted foi gras, and escargots and prime rib with a Kentucky Kiss... fine dining. Wonderful tastes and wine to make the palate sing.

You've been fed well, but you've only had a ham sandwich. Now, there's nothing wrong with that ham sandwich, if that's what you have. I've spiced it up by baking the ham, and adding a little pinapple, brown sugar and a drizzling of melted cheese. It's good, but it's still a ham sandwich. Your palate knows it and is comfortable with it.

But once you've had the foi gras, the prime rib, and other haute cuisine, it's just a ham sandwich, no matter how you dress it up.

(I never thought I would be comparing Dr. LaVey to food...
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#48061 - 02/04/11 05:29 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Antonio]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



To Harvey,

Can you please refer me to a bookstore, or to a link on Amazon where I can buy your written works?

Also how does it feel to be so discussed and well known so many years after your death?

Kindest regards

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#48081 - 02/05/11 02:14 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Jake999]
Harvey Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 39
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
And YOUR claim to success would be? Really. If you're going to pass judgement on who you consider a failure, you need to come up with some indication as to why you have this supposed authority.

Where's your claim to such earthly success that you can declare the life's work of someone else to be a failure?


Hello Jake,

I do not claim any authority. Like most of us, I am a legend in my own mind \:\/ . I am, however, perfectly capable of recognizing hypocrisy when it is right in front of me. This may be an unpopular sentiment, but other than codifying a philosophy and running a grand hoodwink, what other tangible result did LaVey produce?

For all practical purposes I consider material success to be the only quantifiable standard of measure. I've never sought validation through others. I do not court fame [and just as well, I'll concede ;\) ]. Bearing that in mind - I have done quite well for myself. Having put in the hard yards and built myself up from nothing, I am of independent means and free to do as I please. I've succeeded in my endeavours - I will not leave this world as a pauper. I'm sure there are others here who can say as much. That is as it should be.

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#48082 - 02/05/11 02:29 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Antonio]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
I don't understand the hate towards Gilmore. He seems an intelligent and charming guy. Clearly not an idiot as so many here want to portray him...


While he may indeed be an intelligent individual that does nothing, in my mind, to alter the fact that he is a pompous douche-bag with a grandiose superiority complex and little reason for it.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#48083 - 02/05/11 02:54 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: ]
Harvey Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 39
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
To Harvey,

Can you please refer me to a bookstore, or to a link on Amazon where I can buy your written works?


Sure thing, Bubba. Anything for my fans ;\) .

My estate has been instructed to withold publication of my memoirs until 2111. I have been advised by legal counsel that such startling revelations would rock the world, resulting in financial and legal complications for my kin. It's a pity, but what am I to do?

Pre-orders are currently being taken. Publcation will be offered through Lulu or a similarly reputable outfit. A Paypal deposit of US $100 must be lodged no later than Dec 31st 2012. The remaining 90% can be paid in yearly installments. PM for further details.

Thank you

 Quote:
Also how does it feel to be so discussed and well known so many years after your death?


It's a dream come true! Some might sneer at such an ambition, of that I'm aware, but for me it has been a life-long goal. Every word and motion [wilst living... of more recent times I've mellowed, you understand] was carefully orchestrated to win the hearts and minds of my fellow Ubermensch.

Warm regards,

King Shit Phd. LLD yadda yadda

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#48090 - 02/05/11 07:55 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Antonio]
Moravagine Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 16
 Originally Posted By: Antonio
 Quote:
True. But most of the individuals that I mentioned were more apt to apply their various philosophies. They are typically remembered for their deeds.


Are they really remembered for their deeds?. Lets take a look: Machiavelli was a lousy politician, Nietzsche a powerless madman with delusions of grandeur, Sade a sanctimonious poseur...


I think Harvey said most of those individuals. Scratch Nietzche, obviously. I assume that in context, by Machiavelli he intended Borgia; and by Seutonius the Caesars, rather than the authors themselves. Correct?

I'm not certain how Sade could be considered a poseur. His phiolsophy and life were largely consistent. Desmond spent most of his days trying to foment revolution. London was a strong and adventurous man who lived a rich and varied life: far nearer a Wolf Larsen than LaVey was Redbeard. I presume the Caesars and Borgia require no mention.

 Quote:
However, they were all original and deeply influential thinkers and I don't think it's fair to compare them with Anton. It is clear to me that Szandor LaVey's work isn't as groundbreaking as those of the other thinkers.


Very true.

 Quote:
But that was not his goal, he only wanted to provide a religion for certain rebel individuals that have indeed benefited from it.


Yeah... I dunno. A religion for atheists? Maybe it's not quite the right word.

I could well be wrong here, but my overall impression is that LaVey saw a hole in the market and tried to fill it. A carnival huckster playing the rubes. I admire the level of cynicism he demonstrated in doing so, but I suspect that he overestimated the market. His theatrics and mythologising certainly did not constitute a viable business proposition.

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#48091 - 02/05/11 08:15 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Jake999]
Moravagine Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 16
Umm, Jake...

How many people in your list of bankrupts do you think would have incorperated Redbeardian phrases or sentiments into their daily lives? How about Nietzche? Shaw? Their philosophies were rather uncompromising. I think that's the kicker in this instance.

LaVey has produced a body of work. It will no doubt outlive all of us here. I guess that counts for something.

Ed Wood made your list! I love it. LOVE IT! \:D

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#48094 - 02/05/11 09:25 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Moravagine]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
We'll probably never know definitively who influenced who for what in historical figures, but we can surmise that many of them had similar traits and similar attitudes, if only in our own hallucinations. \:\)

People can argue, "What has ANYBODY done." Really... it's a cop out. LaVey's influence opened the doors for Satanism's acceptance in western philosophies, for sure, but there is a direct correlation between LaVey and his bringing of the "Satanic aesthetic" into public consciousness and a lasting presence of that ideal that stands today.

You can start with rock and roll, although LaVey was never a fan of the genre itself as it was in the 70's and beyond, artists rushed toward his imagery and the cache of satanic graphic arts that's become a staple today. Now, some people will even credit him with "gothic dress" and the gloomy facade so many gothic groups take up, but I personally credit Dr. Aquino's Temple of Set, whose members tended to look more to the "vampiric" and darker, broodier end of the spectrum. LaVey's people tended to be more in your face flashes of black and red, brighter colors, women wearing more sexualized stylings... many of your typical rock and roll babes dressed a lot like the women you might see at the Black House. The ladies at the Black House rocked that style from the 70s and early 80's!

For many, the first time they had ever heard of objects or buildings having a disturbing effect on things around them was through LaVey's writings, particularly The Law of the Trapezoid. Post LaVey, it seemed like everybody saw trapezoids and knew why they were called frustrums. They started searching their "haunted houses" for lines out of kilter and sightlines disturbed.

We won't even go into detail within The Compleat Witch for concepts of style and dress and feminine control that have become standards in fashion. Yeah... I know... but EVERYBODY's fashions are that way. They weren't always... check the copyright. Did the trend start before or after The Compleat Witch? My guess is you'll find that the feminization of women despite the DE-feminization attempts of women's groups (Feminists) will bring you back to the very concepts found there.

LaVey was influential in movies, in art, he was a prolific writer, he was an accomplished musician. He spoke at least two other languages that I know of... lost me on Italian in about 3 seconds... and he made being bald COOL (for anyone except me... I'd look like Elmer Fudd).

Hell. Today we have a hundred LaVey and/or Aquino wannabes who know where they went wrong and will be glad to tell you, once they get off work at their local fast food joint or gas station. They've never stepped inside the rarified air of the ritual chamber... but they can tell you why it doesn't work. They've read a book or two or six on various "occult subjects" and are experts, because it says, here on page 233...

Look... the proof is in the pudding. If someone HAS to bash LaVey or Aquino to make themselves look good, I suppose that's what they have to do. But printing up your own books on LuLu doesn't make you an acclaimed author. It makes you someone who wrote a book and has it up for sale on a site that prints to order.

How many copies of The Satanic Bible have been sold since 1969... or Satanic Rituals... or copies of The Compleat Witch/The Satanic Witch? How many people download it for free from the web because they are too timid to buy one directly from a dealer? Royalties from sales keep coming in to LaVey's heirs, although, due to internet rip offs, undoubtably has decreased. (Which brings up an of-the-subject point... I KNOW that pdfs are convenient, but PLEASE buy the hardcovers of these books. It's only fair to the authors who only make a small amount from each sale.)

Dr. LaVey's body of work lives on, as you say. And now, all of this time after his death, he is still popular and controversial as he was in 1966. A quick search on Google will show 173,000 hits for Anton LaVey, 1,260,000 for Church of Satan, 395,000 for The Satanic Bible, 159,000 for The Satanic Rituals, 51,400 for The Compleat Witch, and 172,000 for The Satanic Witch (the revised name of The Compleat Witch.)

Legacy? Yes. I think so.

_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#48101 - 02/05/11 11:31 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Jake999]
Antonio Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 38
 Quote:
PLEASE buy the hardcovers of these books. It's only fair to the authors who only make a small amount from each sale.

Can you still buy brand new harcover versions of LaVey's work?. I thought they were out of print.

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#48102 - 02/05/11 11:35 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism Outdated? [Re: ]
nocTifer Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 87
Loc: Khazakstan
It is duplicitous to ignore the failures of those one lauds while emphasizing the lack of success of those who seek to point to standards of success they respect.

It is unimportant what or who someone might have influenced in the past in an evaluation as to whether or not what they originally stood for is now outdated.

In an evaluation of 'philosophies of life', due to the diversity and reproductive success of the human animal there is no reason any need be regarded as 'dated' or 'outdated'. Fans may always be found for the peculiarities and extremes. Those seeking to encompass convention, self-serving interest, or opposition to status quo cannot ever truly be displaced due to their common appeal.

Aspects of the background culture employed for temporary purpose, on the other hand, are very likely to become outdated and useless, especially for those who gain a great deal of exposure to the initial application, or for those who find their own application outside of the original context.


Edited by nocTifer (02/05/11 11:38 AM)
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