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#48209 - 02/06/11 12:42 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism Outdated? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Mahakala Offline
lurker


Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 4

"
There are a few problems, of course:

(1) The ©s for both books are still active. After all the ASLV-croak legal circus, I'm not sure who actually owns them, and haven't tried to find out. If Gilmore owns them now, I doubt he'd give permission for something like this unless he could mess with it, which is out of the question. So if this project ever sees public access, it would probably be in the post-PG future."

Dr.Aquino,

If you might recall, Zeena and Blanche (maybe Karla too, I don't remember) took all these issues to court after LaVey's death. As a result, Blanche was awarded the CoS and Zeena acquired the copyrights to the Satanic Bible and the Satanic Rituals.
This is old news. The details were published in a San Francisco newspaper at the time. There was and may still be an online copy of the article.
Perhaps Zeena would give you permission for such an undertaking. It would be interesting.

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#48210 - 02/06/11 12:46 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism Outdated? [Re: Mahakala]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Karla also has royalty rights to Dr. LaVey's books, and the chances of her granting any kind of permission to Dr. Aquino for anything would be roughly somewhere between a snowball's chance in Hell and slim and none. Of course, that's an underestimation on my part.

I would pay to be a fly on the wall when he asked her.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#48214 - 02/06/11 01:42 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism Outdated? [Re: Jason King]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1140
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
As a sidebar, I would find less than a small dose of irony in an eventuality where ASL's heirs sued ANYONE for copyright infringement.


I was wondering if anyone would have the balls to say that. I can't say I'm surprised who did...

While parts of TSB may be considered plagiarism, copyright infringement they are not. Everything LaVey used was in the public domain.

Many consider giving away one's work freely (or anonymously/pseudonymously) to be a means to wider distribution. In practice, it causes perceived devaluation of the work. Profit, on the other hand, enables the author to afford greater distribution and publicity.

If the intent behind the original works was expression, one could say LaVey did the original authors a favor. (Heck, how people had heard of Might is Right before TSB?) By recognizing the strategic value of copyright (and trademark), LaVey got both prominence and profit.
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#48226 - 02/06/11 03:28 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism Outdated? [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
If I'm going to be honest with you, the idea comes off as crass and trying to glom onto Dr, LaVey's accomplishments, as if they were your own. No matter how you spin it, it's not going to look good. After the history you've had with The Church, I'd say it's probably about the worst idea you have ever had.

Actually annotated editions of classic works can be very interesting, and if done properly not at all disrespectful. Among such in my library are Paradise Lost a/Isaac Asimov, Dracula a/Leonard Wolfe, and 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea a/Walter J. Miller. [There are also more recent annotated editions of Dracula and 20K Leagues.] Properly and carefully done [as these examples], annotated editions can be a definite enhancement of the original work and a gold mine of source, background, and detail information. So I am not concerned about that aspect, nor my qualifications to do it where the SB & SR are concerned.

I would need to take especial care, as I touched upon above, in considerations like text clean-up. My inclination is to put everything in proper English, grammar, and composition. That I could do very easily; I am one of those "00%" SAT English freaks. The problem is that if everything is made completely perfect, Anton might start sounding less like Anton LaVey and more like George Sanders or Rex Harrison. That obviously wouldn't do. [You can already see this problem in my drafts of the Prologue & 9SS. Even corrections as straightforward as noun/pronoun alignment and proper verbage ["All have" or "Each has", not "Each have"] impact the tone. The same for the punctuation corrections in the 9SS. And while "Christian church" is more accurate than "church", it's not the original. Etc.]

Annotations, incidentally, do not mean "gotcha!" sharpshooting. My a/SB, for instance, would not make an issue about the "Book of Satan" plagiarism; it would simply add RR's name to it and footnote information about him. Etc.

 Quote:
AND I can pretty much predict that you will spend the rest of your life in litigation, because the copyrighted material is in the hands of the family, and even there, it's convoluted.

I already noted that, and it is one of the reasons this is a long-term, back-burner project. If/when I get it done, it would probably just sit dormant until/unless there were an opportunity for it to see daylight. For instance a post-Gilmore ©-holder might welcome it. Not a present concern.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#48229 - 02/06/11 03:42 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism Outdated? [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
Karla also has royalty rights to Dr. LaVey's books, and the chances of her granting any kind of permission to Dr. Aquino for anything would be roughly somewhere between a snowball's chance in Hell and slim and none. Of course, that's an underestimation on my part.

I would pay to be a fly on the wall when he asked her.

I haven't had any contact with Karla since 1975, so frankly do not know what she thinks about me personally. Prior to that unfortunate moment we were very close friends. I can also understand and respect her standing by her father come-what-may; blood may not be "the life", but it is indeed thicker than water.

Obviously Karla would need to see something like this a/SB to form an opinion on it. I have no problem whatever with that. Indeed it would be that much better if she, Zeena, and Diane, along with qualified others (such as your esteemed self) would pre-critique it.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#48230 - 02/06/11 04:20 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Fnord]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
My primary interest in starting this thread is to get very specific about what it is, in precise terms, that is out dated about Satanism as codified by Anton LaVey.


Any book will, after enough time, be outdated at some levels. But I think the important question is not as much as it is outdated as it is still being valuable.

And there it depends on whom you ask. When looking at the group of people entering Satanism, it becomes rather clear that laveyan Satanism seems to be more valuable to people in the USA than in Europe. The answer to it is quite simple; religion doesn't have a that strong hold upon most Euro-countries, and as such, morals are more loose. So, evidently, laveyan Satanism loses value and as a result, becomes outdated.

If culture changes, value is redefined.

D.

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#48237 - 02/06/11 05:06 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
An annotated version of TSB by Dr. Aquino would be highly enjoyable read. And to be honest it can be done if he were to only publish the annotations and then just refer to chapter, page # or whatever is necessary.
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#48239 - 02/06/11 05:53 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: TheInsane]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
An annotated version of TSB by Dr. Aquino would be highly enjoyable read. And to be honest it can be done if he were to only publish the annotations and then just refer to chapter, page # or whatever is necessary.

Then it would become a "study guide".

Of course that would preclude my doing any clean-up of the two originals, which is a significant part of my interest. And, as brought out above, arguably a mixed blessing/curse.

In writing the stories on my webpage, one of my obsessions was, again, precise English/grammar/sentence structure. [My 5th-grade English teacher bludgeoned sentence-diagramming into us, and woe unto him who split an infinitive or left a participle dangling!] This became a bit of a problem in The Dark Side, because people - even Andromedans - don't speak in full, correct sentences. Particularly in the middle of combat. It was also a chore to keep 4-letter-words out of it. As Jake will attest, it was impossible in Vietnam to say anything to anyone else without the work "fuck"/"fucking" in the middle of it. On Bien Hoa Airbase the USAF had a forklift manufactured by the Muder company which I routinely used for boxes of PSYOP leaflets. The USAF had painted a special nameplate on it: MUDER FORKER.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#48241 - 02/06/11 06:12 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
What the fuck are you fucking talking about... when the fuck is my DEROS... grab my fuckin' ass a bookie bird and di di mao back to the land of the Big fuckin' PX. dinki dau mother fucker!!!

Yeah... I kinda (fuckin) remember.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#48244 - 02/06/11 07:02 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Fnord]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1140
Loc: Amarillo, TX
It just occurred to me that there's a certain element of The Satanic Witch that's “outdated.”

Some complain about old-fashioned beauty standards or sexism. I disagree--LaVey's beauty standards are classic, and women aren't necessarily reduced to sex objects just because they employ sex appeal, despite some feminists' claims.

But one thing that is outdated is apathy about other women’s opinions. LaVey is right that a woman liked by men will be disliked by other (jealous) women. Back when The Compleat Witch was written, it was sensible to disregard other women’s opinions because it was mostly a man’s world. But now that many women hold positions of power, it can be dangerous to rouse the ire of the wrong woman.

From Memoirs of a Geisha by Arthur Golden:
“You have a lovely arm, and beautiful skin. You should make sure every man who sits near you sees it at least once.”
So I went on, pouring tea again and again, until Mameha felt satisfied that I drew my sleeve out of the way enough to show my arm without being too obvious what I was doing…*
She asked me to do it again, this time pretending I was pouring tea for the mistress of the Ichiriki. I showed my arm in just the same way, and Mameha made a face at once.
“For heaven’s sake, I’m a woman,” she said. “Why are you showing me your arm that way? Probably you’re just trying to make me angry… You’re showing me how youthful and beautiful you are, while I’m already old and decrepit…”


*Similar to the wardrobe malfunctions LaVey recommends in The Satanic Witch. Many of the same points on seduction are found in both TSW and Memoirs of a Geisha.
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#48281 - 02/07/11 02:23 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: XiaoGui17]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
But one thing that is outdated is apathy about other women’s opinions. LaVey is right that a woman liked by men will be disliked by other (jealous) women. Back when The Compleat Witch was written, it was sensible to disregard other women’s opinions because it was mostly a man’s world.

The beauty of the Compleat witch is that a man wrote it from the perspective of a woman. It barely is sexism and apathy from men towards women since, if you have read the book properly, it contains many elements of feminism while at the same time motivating women to display their natural gifts of beauty and seduction in a non-degrading way.
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#48316 - 02/07/11 05:03 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: XiaoGui17]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1140
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
The beauty of the Compleat witch is that a man wrote it from the perspective of a woman. It barely is sexism and apathy from men towards women...


I wasn't claiming that The Compleat Witch was "apathy from men towards women"; I was saying that LaVey told women to disregard the opinions of other women. In the section on "Bitchcraft":

In the business world, the most successful women are those who have used their feminine wiles in reaching the top, not really concerning themselves about the other woman’s approval but concentrating on bewitching men. Then, once they have reached the top, they can easily charm other women. They have become strong enough so that other women, knowing themselves to be in a much lesser position, either refrain from venting their envy, refuse to entertain it in the first place or, if they are stupid enough to try, make fools of themselves.

That was all well and good back when most bosses were men anyway, but now that a good many women do hold higher positions, women need to be a bit more cautious.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
...if you have read the book properly, it contains many elements of feminism while at the same time motivating women to display their natural gifts of beauty and seduction in a non-degrading way.


I basically said this in my post, right here:
 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17
Some complain about old-fashioned beauty standards or sexism. I disagree--LaVey's beauty standards are classic, and women aren't necessarily reduced to sex objects just because they employ sex appeal, despite some feminists' claims.


Did I fail to read The Compleat Witch "properly," or did you fail to read my post properly?


Edited by XiaoGui17 (02/07/11 05:03 PM)
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#48349 - 02/08/11 03:54 AM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: XiaoGui17]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:

I wasn't claiming that The Compleat Witch was "apathy from men towards women"; I was saying that LaVey told women to disregard the opinions of other women. In the section on "Bitchcraft":

In the business world, the most successful women are those who have used their feminine wiles in reaching the top, not really concerning themselves about the other woman’s approval but concentrating on bewitching men. Then, once they have reached the top, they can easily charm other women. They have become strong enough so that other women, knowing themselves to be in a much lesser position, either refrain from venting their envy, refuse to entertain it in the first place or, if they are stupid enough to try, make fools of themselves.

That was all well and good back when most bosses were men anyway, but now that a good many women do hold higher positions, women need to be a bit more cautious.

It has been said many times before that Satanism is for a specific kind of human beings. I indeed think you haven't read it properly since you still believe that women towards each other should be more "kind". Bitchcraft is not limited towards men only and certain principles can be applied against other women. If I remember correctly there are even strategies to take-out other women in high positions by the use of male attention and jealousy.

In other words: why care about the opinions of other women if it is about a personal raising of status? You seem to be still stuck with the premise of "we women"... hand-holding sheep mentality.

So far your statement you have improved when you returned to the boards... still seeing no change.
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Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#48409 - 02/08/11 05:03 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Fnord]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
Chapter #9 of my Church of Satan consists of an extensive analysis of The Compleat Witch. I took a look at it to see whether some points from it would be appropriate here, but after re-reading the chapter I think it is best taken as a whole.

I will add only this anecdote [not in the chapter]: that on one occasion when Diane LaVey and my mother went out shopping together, Diane said that the CW was OK with her except that she could have done without Anton's seamed-nylons-&-garter-belt fetish, because pantyhose were so much more comfortable.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#48411 - 02/08/11 05:23 PM Re: Anton LaVey's Satanism is "outdated?" [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I don't think I ever saw Lady Diane in seamed stockings, although she was always impeccably dressed. She was rocking The Compleat Witch the first night I met her in a blood red blouse, black skirt and heels, with the blouse strategically opened to the perfect level and her hair and makeup were perfect.

I don't think I ever saw her with a hair out of place. She looked GOOD... and she knew it. When she was on, she was ON and a star.
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