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#52916 - 04/14/11 10:02 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
 Originally Posted By: Jim Lewis

Well, I suppose I should have anticipated these sorts of reactions and not bothered to make this post.

I've spent a large part of my academic career undermining stereotypes, and can't quite get it through my head that certain Satanists prefer to maintain their particular stereotype.

What's useful about the responses this post has evoked is that they provide me with a basis for discussing the reasoning behind why certain Satanists refused to participate.



Cheer up, Jim. The Temple of THEM will respond to your survey. We'll post it on our wordpress too.

Ps - I have come across Venus Satanas in the past -I had no problems with her or her intentions at all. Jim, I have spent a hell of a lot of time on forums discussing the intimate ins and outs of my views including my Satanic views with all and sundry. If you are willing to hear what I have to say then I'm all in. I appreciate the opportunity. And - the idea being floated that you as an academic may somehow skew what I say is laughable to me. I am less worried about an academic (and I understand you're a friend of JC/Arktos -another decent academic) misunderstanding me than half the people who frequent forums seem to.

ISS,
RA


Edited by Khk (04/14/11 10:23 AM)
Edit Reason: clairty

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#52918 - 04/14/11 10:41 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Jim Lewis

I've spent a large part of my academic career undermining stereotypes, and can't quite get it through my head that certain Satanists prefer to maintain their particular stereotype.


Well, the problem is, as I see it, the interpretation of the word "Satanism".

It's not really people being stereotypical, it's more in people taking umbrage with other folks usage of that particular word. To some it's completely mystical and to others it's completely devoid of mysticism. Trying to lump that group of people together under a single banner is like trying to lump 1943 Nazis and Jews together by calling them European.

I apologize though if I came off as flippant or arrogant or anything of the like. I think your research is interesting and worthwhile and I appreciate all of your efforts to engage us directly to get at the truth. Few have been as brave or honorable with their intentions.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#52931 - 04/14/11 11:48 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Fnord]
Jim Lewis Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway
SinisterMoon:

There is a Danish fellow, Jesper Aagaard Petersen, who is just now completing his Ph.D. in Religious Studies from the Norwegian University of Science and Technology (the comparison is problematic, but it's sort of the Norwegian MIT). He edited the volume in which the Harvey piece you criticize appeared. (Harvey is a leading scholar of Neopaganism, not Satanism.)

Jesper has been researching Satanism for years--though I don't know how many f2f interviews he's done--and is the closest person I know to being a scholar of Satanism. There's also a graduate student at the U of Stockholm, Per Faxnell, who is similarly focused, though he has been more interested in the pre-LaVey history of modern Satanism.

As I noted in my 2001 article, Who Serves Satan?, there had been almost no serious scholarly work on the topic up to that point. I don't think this situation really started to change until the Trondheim Satanism conference in 2009. Most of the papers given at that conference are still online. FYI:

http://www.ntnu.no/iar/konferanser/satanisminthemodernworld/papers

All the Best,

Jim

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#52932 - 04/14/11 11:57 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Question: doesn't Satanism occasionally depress you and make you wonder why the hell you even got into this?

When looking from your perspective, I see a bunch not that willing to cooperate, constantly at war with itself and not managing to agree upon anything and even when they “help” one isn't sure if their intentions are honest or if they are deliberately misleading. I mean, I'd surely would throw in the towel and move to something less stressing.

It requires quite some courage what you are doing.

D.

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#52933 - 04/14/11 12:04 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Khk]
Jim Lewis Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway

Khk,

Sure. Please go ahead and post the link on your site. The 2006 Australian census recorded over 2,000 Australians who self-identified as Satanists. I'd like to hear from some of them.

Also, in the second survey, some of the more articulate participants were ONA-inspired respondents. So I would like to hear more from you.

(FYI: As you may or may not be aware, the Temple of THEM was discussed in a paper delivered at the Trondheim Satanism conference: http://www.ntnu.no/c/document_library/ge...&groupId=10244)


All the Best,

Jim

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#52935 - 04/14/11 12:22 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Diavolo]
Jim Lewis Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway

D.,

Well, like any group of people, Satanists run the gamut. The Satanists I've met f2f are quite different from each other. The single trait they share is that a part of them enjoys pissing people off -- I say that to their faces, and they just smile.

How I got into this and why I keep studying Satanism is a lengthy story that I don't want to get into at the moment, but I will say there's a part of me that finds Satanists to be a breath of fresh air compared with some of the other people and groups I study.


All the Best,

Jim

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#52937 - 04/14/11 12:27 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Lol. Well, Jim, you're in luck. I actually worked for the Australian Bureau of Statistics - which drastically altered my confidence in the Aust Govt's ability to get anything done or manage the country. I did think the number was higher, say 30,000 - I should look it up in the 2006 year book we recieved, presuming its there.

I would have been among that few that self-identified. And I have just answered your survey.

Yes, I heard we were mentioned. Interestingly, when asked by George Sieg about the Temple it was before sweeping changes were made to our current. So the information Sieg was given was accurate at the time but is no longer applicable. Unless of course it was JC who provided the paper - who may or may not have had more insight at the time, but we have changed regardless. We have several views in fact, an NLP view, a form-based view, and an earth-based sorcery all insulated from one another. We're also the Australian Nexion of the ONA. if you would like to know more, visit Mvimaedivm Wordpress.

ISS,
RA

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#52939 - 04/14/11 12:35 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
A child can't be "punished" in the context of Christian morality, because they are utterly inexperienced and hence they cannot know what they are doing is detrimental to their own lives, a child learns through experience and if you have to present a unfortunate conclusion to them they will either take heed or not. One cannot take complete control over a child s life and repress them in soul. It's hard and stressful work that makes you worry. Only communication and trust can lead both parent and child to work together on common goals, the parent ought to look at their child's life as more important than their own comfort and relaxation. A lot of parents just want a quick fix routine that breaks down the spirit of their children into herd mentality, slave morality. Only through gaining experience in alignment with a child's developing propensity of will can carve a strong personality.

Christianity is a good training obstacle to cultivate a decision maker, all the illogical and unnatural ideas around religion are good to divide the herd. After all, Jesus laughed a great deal among his disciples.

Now, would "good" monotheist parents in their perfect wisdom suckled from the bosom of all knowing one, know what would be the reaction to the indoctrination that they are secretly using to help their children rebel? And in this can we see a loving manipulation to ensure the child develops a strong will and sense of defiance to illogical propositions as a self sufficient decision maker? Surely not, in this we can see that the good lord is not meaning to covertly cultivate any sense of self-worth in his children but rather inclined to molest them with indoctrination.

It makes one rethink the assumption that Satanists would be harsher parents than Neopagans.[sic]

A two way comment, insofar as we could rethink that a Satanist could be lenient as compared to the Pagan, or we could see that "rethink" would be to preserve the realisation that Satanist are harsher still.

Who are these Satanist? Who are these Neo-Pagans? Is there a statistic which defines the individual? Unless the survey is an attempt to make it appear as though there are correlations which indicate a mythical sameness exists between Satanist' whom do not "punish" children insinuating that "punish" is being synonymous with "teach". In this we see that to teach a child is not down to "punishment" but an array of experience accumulated into self discipline which can be very harsh indeed and has nothing to do with submission which is not discipline, discipline lies is the affirmation of will.

Satanist are the harshest parents of all. Why? because we send a child into life, we teach, demonstrate and expose them to life by never turning their eyes away from the light, if one turns away from the light of the world one will see nothing but the darkness of falsity. Could facing a child to look directly into the light so that they may see darkness there, ever be considered less harsh than keeping a child in the dark until one day the parent is not there, the child steps out into the light and without any knowledge of what is there, they brave the elements in complete confusion and vulnerability.

Sheltering children is not the something a Satanist would do. Such a behaviour would be considered morbidly unrealistic.
_________________________


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#52943 - 04/14/11 01:41 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Hegesias]
Jim Lewis Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway
Svort Verda Solkin,

Well, it's not a simple question about punishment. Rather, the item is stated more starkly as "Physically punish a child." It is framed by the overarching question, "What types of violence can be justified?"

All parents punish their children in some way. I think respondents interpreted the question as hitting children (which was the connotation I intended).


All the Best,

Jim



Edited by Jim Lewis (04/14/11 01:47 PM)
Edit Reason: elaboration

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#52949 - 04/14/11 02:28 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I see, how strange a test would ask about violence to children in relation to Satanism?

I find that very odd.

Now I will continue to subvert the other Christian conspiracies within the survey.
_________________________


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#52954 - 04/14/11 04:25 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Hegesias]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I doubt very much there are subvert christian conspiracies in the survey. Some questions are likely related towards specific stereotypes and provide data for the relevance of them.

There is enough usable material to be found online without having to do the effort of constructing a survey when desiring to paint a dark picture of Satanism.

D.

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#52963 - 04/14/11 08:17 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1723
Loc: New York
I like Venus Satanas. Although I don’t agree with her views on Satanism, I do find her videos an interesting way to spend some time.....and I didn’t even see that pole dancing video.
At one time I was even thinking about purchasing some of her sketches that she sells, which I find very appealing.

Eh, but what do I know, I like most of you fuckers too, although sometimes I have no clue what you are talking about \:\)
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#52971 - 04/15/11 12:26 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
The Left-Hand Path represents transgressing boundaries. This is open to interpretation, but even so, there are different lengths at which individuals will go in order to 'break the mold' and stay true to their principles.

Satanism is horrifying to many people because it represents the complete rejection of all objective morality and decency. From the perspective of the true Antinomian, there is no intrinsic principle standing between him/her and every behavioral atrocity imaginable, such as murder, rape, holocaust, and infanticide. To say that Satanists "absolutely do not (kill infants, harm animals, etc)" is a philosophical lie.

But if I were to say this in a press statement as a public spokesperson for a Satanic organization, it would be a PR disaster. The public would not bother to listen to my further elaborations about personal honor and the social contract, or how animal torture and infanticide are ontologically neutral behaviors that even conventional society commits through hunting and abortion (in a desensitized fashion due to reduced social cues, might I add). As a result I would become the target of sensational smear articles erroneously claiming that my statement was as "incitement" or "endorsement" of mutilating animals, devouring fetuses, and kicking puppies.

Or, for the sake of brevity and political correctness, I could simply (and dogmatically) state, "Satanists are law-abiding citizens. We don't eat babies. Have a nice day." But better yet, I could simply NOT become a public spokesperson for Satanism in the first place, simply so I wouldn't have to parrot such idiotic disclaimers every time a reporter came knocking on my door.

Now while I have no problem appeasing the public on occasion as my mild-mannered alter-ego who holds a job, pays taxes, and shops for groceries-- the whole reason that I deal with Satanism in the first place is because I have an opportunity to leave all of that ethical baggage at the door and confront reality at its rawest. So why in hell would I want to get dog shit on the carpet by trying to make Satanism look respectable to other people? I'd rather keep my mouth shut on the matter.

Any attempt to convey Satanism to others instantly dilutes the essence of the original idea, including my own post here. It is only a matter of how much one minds diluting it-- in my case, I find using groups, covens, and online forums to be worth the cost, but draw the line at the public. It is an entirely personal preference.

======================================
PS

I am not 'against' sociological studies of Satanism per se-- it is not realistic to expect researchers to have the same intimate experiences and definitions regarding Satanism that a "true practitioner" (read, my own personal opinion) might have. So in summary, while I might be very elitist in my closer preferences and opinions, it is not unreasonable to give some leeway to researchers such as yourself for the sake of scholastic curiosity.


Edited by The Zebu (04/15/11 12:31 AM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#52972 - 04/15/11 01:23 AM Thoths Answers [Re: The Zebu]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
These were my answers to the optional questions.


10
I encourage my child to think carefully about the world and the things that present themselves to him. I explain as much as possible the depth and connection between one thing and another to build an empathic, intuitive understanding of causal effects, consequence and tradition - both my partner (female) and I take the responsibility of raising an aware, intelligent, and empathic child seriously, each adding as much as we can to help him function safely and navigate the challenges of the world as an independant being. I have never encouraged anybody under the age of 18 to join the ONA or THEM, I actively condemn acts of violence, rudeness or hostility and sanction what my younger child views. My older child is given reign to live as he sees fit but was asked to leave our house for stealing from us because of the atmosphere of trust being broken among family. I do not think children have the faculties to join in the serious nature of Satanism - nor do I think they should be involved at any level. If I were to advocate the culling principle of Satanism as held by THEM/ONA - parents who Do irresponsibly indoctrinate their children in Satanic practices would be ideal opfers.

18
My beliefs are that any form neccessary to get the job done, whatever it may be, may require political stance x to be adopted. My political stance can therefore change if it needs to.

23
Yes. But these should be dealt with on a 1-1 basis. If a woman is raped, she should have the immediate right to terminate the foetus.

33
Caucasian -Irish Descendant

38
I prayed to God to save a man. But God did not answer my prayer. The man I prayed for died. I vowed that if God wouldn't listen maybe Satan would. I prayed to Satan. God appeared. It changed what I may have become.

43
SATH, Anton Long, David Myatt,ONA, My Mother, My Partner (Nine Rays), Jung, Nietzsche, HItler, Terry Pratchett, Aristotle, too many others to name.

44
Mvimaedivm Wordpress
Sinister 101 Syndicate @ yahoo groups
The 600 Club
Nexus Magazine
Yes. Daily.

47
Magic is a form. Forms can be any of the above and more - or none of the above - it all depends on the person and what they load into their mind and how they perceive - (through their 23 syndrome)

48
Christian (past), Druid (past), Wiccan (past) - Satanist (current).

54
My view is that if you can change a persons view, you change the way they interact with others, and set off a chain reaction that can cause change to the world. Change to the world can then cause change to the self. So, merely talking with others about their views is for me, an aspect of magic.

55
Through using only my mind I managed to induce an LSD-based experience by believing in the principles outlined about energy control in the Celestine Prophecy. I floated off the ground and felt high for a few hours, travelling far from home in a spiritual reverie. It convinced me that, if I could load my mind with enough suggestion to do something like that with something as new-age as the Celestine Prophecy - then I could do much more with something very serious like the Order of Nine Angles. I remain convinced that much magic is all in the mind - but this doesnt make it any less effective.

56
But also all of the above. There are valid ways to justify the form of each option as co-existing simultaneously.

57
I use an anonymous name online. I tell very few people what I am or do or believe by using the word Satan or Satanist. I am careful to keep my two worlds seperate.

58
Yes. It is a greatly stigmatized religion - employers, friends, even my parents have greatly feared or expressed fear or disdain for Satanism, Devil Worship or the acts associated with it. I have found myself at odds with the world ever since becoming a Satanist - believing that the world is unable to release itself from its dualized tradition of view and is therefore unable to recognize Satanism outside of its generic context. The world is not friendly to strangers, or the unknown - it is based on fear - and Satan, as an irrational force, calls forth that fear. I therefore remain anonymous and silent about my involvement.

59
I prayed to God to save a man. But God did not answer my prayer. The man I prayed for died. I vowed that if God wouldn't listen maybe Satan would. I prayed to Satan. God appeared. It changed what I may have become.
I wrote my Diary of a DevilworshippR (Mvimaedivm) series to elucidate the changes and states of mind and practice I went through and am still going through. It is though, likely that my absent father was responsible for my need to seek out an alternate and superhuman male role model who would not leave me or disappoint me. Boy was I wrong. lol. But that was probably the underlying cause.

60
Yes. I believe Satan is an interpretation of a force far older than its namesake, that originated in our original fear from our first experience of being born into the world and having no names, no forms, no control over it - it must have been terrifying. Therefore as a reaction, we evolved form to reign in the chaos around us. This lead on to Gods, but we did not recognize the unconscious psyche at the time, and its ferocity frightened us. We kept it back, and evolved the conscious ego. But the beast inside us still kept coming. It became synonymous with evil, the devil, demons, bad mojo. We therefore recognzie the archetype of satan in many ways, many guises, but all through a remembrance perhaps - of our original fear and the desperate scramble to cover chaos with forms, understanding, religion and meaning that now takes place. But underneath it, in quiet moments, or when our castles collapse, we glimpse the Devil and his smiling face - and see things for what they really are. But most of us quickly cover them back up again.

61
All of the above. Satanism is a form. An empty slate, where anyone can write anything they wish. That perhaps is the appeal.

62
Anything can be justified - its our human habit of natural deciet. It goes back to the 23 syndrome - and the fact that we can convince ourselves (or be convinced) of Anything. So, all things, all views are inherently valueless. We give them value - but that doesn't mean they have it. Because we also give values, form. Its a big old selfish wheel - no one is right - but the strongest form, wins through.

63
I dont know. Its complicated - different cultures, different reasons. I just dont kill animals. I can see why others do as part of their culture and habitual traditions. I dont think its my place to judge them or suggest they stop since I hapiily eat meat and allow all manner of cruelty, blood-letting and indignancy to occur to animals in my complacent willingness to eat that meat.

65
A stepping stone. Important in a greater context than his individual emergence. The Satanic Bible is an inverted Bible - but it was a start. The CoS bring many some of the way - we do the rest.

66
I'm not a member of the Church of Satan.
We are the Temple of THEM - in relation to the CoS - we have virtually nothing in common except a dislike and disdain for Christian values. Yet the CoS strikes me as just as Christian as the Church proper. It merely inverts Christianity - it does nothing to prevent, change, or alter Christianity - rather, it adds fuel to those crazy bastards fires by being the Devil They want.

67
There is a great deal I could add, hundreds of pages in fact Jim. But my laptop battery is fading and I wrote what I have written so that I would not have to painstakingly repeat myself and re-write those hundreds of pages. Further information from us is available from Mvimadivm Wordpress - or for my autobiography you can purchase Diary of a DevilworshippR, or I think it is available freely from Scribd.

Thank you for your interest, good luck with your survey.

ISS,
RA of THEM






Edited by Khk (04/15/11 01:23 AM)

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#52974 - 04/15/11 03:38 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3110
 Quote:
Many items in the questionnaire are there for the purpose of comparison rather than purely for the purpose of producing a profile of Satanists. Some of the items from the General Social Survey, for example, allow me to compare certain Satanist attitudes with the attitudes of the general population.


And you'll quickly find out that the attitudes of Satanists are comparable with those of the general population. Why is that? Because Satanists belong to the general population. The mistake you are making (and many, many others) is that they want to see Satanists as a separate group with different features and/or powers/attitudes. The truth is, we aren't.

The only thing that really matters within the philosophy is not the occult knowledge nor followers or the one who can quote and/or live up towards "Satanic virtues" as described by ASL. The only thing that really matters is the manifestation of a person. His combined will and knowledge, his presence in the real world, his goals (whatever they may be) and how to achieve them, his actions, his words,.. Hence why some people are being regarded of having Satanic virtues and ideals but in reality have no link whatsoever with Satanism. That is the only difference which seperates us. And even that seperation is quite subtle since there are others who do not call themselves Satanists who do the same thing.

You can take a look at the "big names". People like Boyd Rice, M.A.A. and Anton Long are, by most of the people, regarded as "true" Satanists. (Each with their separate fanbase ofcourse..). There are a few common grounds but in general it can be said the 3 of them have very different personas. It is only their manifestation which gave them the status they have now.

Thus, I honestly find the questionnaire of the same level on facebook. Entertainment.

I must admit it takes away much of the dark and mysterious sphere around the philosophy. But in essence, man and its ways in itself are already dark enough.
_________________________
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