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#49538 - 02/24/11 01:30 PM Stockholm Satanism Conference; New Questionnaire
Jim Lewis Offline
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Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway
There will be an academic conference on Satanism that will be held at the University of Stockholm 25-27 Septmeber 2011 ( http://www.erg.su.se/pub/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=16068 ). This is a follow-up gathering to the conference that was held in Trondheim, Norway, in 2009.

As an extension of my prior research (e.g., http://www.uni-marburg.de/fb03/ivk/mjr/pdfs/2001/articles/lewis2001.pdf ), I am presently gathering data on Satanists with via a new, more extensive, online questionnaire. If anyone would like to consider participating, the link to the questionnaire is: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GC2RHKF .

Thanks!
Jim

[I can be contacted directly at james.lewis@tsd.ac.uk]


Edited by Nemesis (02/24/11 04:00 PM)

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#49539 - 02/24/11 01:35 PM Re: Stockholm Satanism Conference; New Questionnaire [Re: Jim Lewis]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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You might want to remove the "period" at the end of the link, else it leads to the homepage of surveymonkey instead of the survey itself.

D.

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#49572 - 02/24/11 03:59 PM Re: Stockholm Satanism Conference; New Questionnaire [Re: Diavolo]
Jim Lewis Offline
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Registered: 02/24/11
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Loc: Tromsø, Norway
Thanks!

I can't seem to get back into my original post to make that modification, so here is the corrected link.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GC2RHKF


Edited by Jim Lewis (02/24/11 04:02 PM)
Edit Reason: mistake in original

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#49573 - 02/24/11 04:07 PM Re: Stockholm Satanism Conference; New Questionnaire [Re: Jim Lewis]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The ability to edit a post lasts only one hour. After that it is closed.

Nemesis already corrected the link in your previous post but mentioning it twice won't hurt.

Three times however opens Pandora's box. ;\)

D.

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#52852 - 04/13/11 03:40 PM New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Jim Lewis Offline
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Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway

Venus Satanas recently posted a youtube video promoting the new Satanist questionnaire. (She did this independently of me; I did not ask for a youtube endorsement.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w98FdLkQcpw

Venus must have clout/credibility among Satanists: responses to the questionnaire jumped from 116 to 182 in just four days.

So say what you want. I am frankly impressed.

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#52854 - 04/13/11 03:54 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
It's pointless to comment but I feel compelled to do it anyway.

Venus has clout/credibility among Satanists like Jesse Jackson has clout amongst black folk. Some like them and agree with them, others don't.

Her views are generally not supported within this site. She does have a rather large following but what some of those folks call Satanism is not in the same ballpark as what I would call Satanism.

No disrespect meant toward anyone.
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#52855 - 04/13/11 03:59 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Fnord]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Fnord

Venus has clout/credibility among Satanists like Jesse Jackson has clout amongst black folk. Some like them and agree with them, others don't.


THANKS for the laugh, Fnord. I needed it today, although cleaning the Diet Coke off of my monitor is gonna be a bitch!!!
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#52856 - 04/13/11 04:05 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Mister Cage Offline
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Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
JIM LEWIS... please excuse my ignorance concerning the question, but am i replying to the famous "James Lewis" once head,VI°, of the Temple of Set?

Thank you in advance for your time and considerion toward my inquary.

Concerning the survey: I find it rather suspicious. It seems to be more of a tool to measure, scale or weigh us in some fashion. Perhaps as either a threat or too little of one. Who knows, i dont.

I've found that working behind the scenes is one of our greatest assets. Venus knows this, i think her recent motivations have been adulterated. I appreciate the offer, but i will not be participating in the survey.


Edited by Mister Cage (04/13/11 04:31 PM)

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#52865 - 04/13/11 04:57 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Jim Lewis



Venus must have clout/credibility among Satanists: responses to the questionnaire jumped from 116 to 182 in just four days.





Mr. Lewis. Nothing could be further from the truth.

She has youtube subs, but only because of the pole dancing videos(she has since removed).

Among those with a casual interest in Satanism she might be interesting, but she is not a Satanist in any meaningful sense of the word, nor is she anything but a joke in any and all Satanic circles.
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#52868 - 04/13/11 05:16 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Tesseract Offline
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Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 190
Loc: United States
I have no objections to Lewis’ study of Satanism, nor the survey. But some of Venus Satanas’ reasons given in that video for participating indeed seem somewhat dubious. Is there genuinely a need for “people” or “the public” to better understand Satanism in general? How many self-described Satanists truly want more positive recognition, and deeper understanding from those outside Satanism? How do open or “out” Satanists currently suffer from a prejudicial public opinion? For Satanists who presently live in countries where freedoms of speech, religion, and association are still protected by constitutional law (if shaky), why would an open Satanist pursue deeper assimilation into mainstream culture? If secular atheists are often still met with scorn and condemnation by the largely religious societies they’re part of, do Satanists have leeway to realistically expect more benevolent attitudes from those societies, after having adopted as their symbolism & ideology the symbols that most often represent the ultimate incarnations of “Evil” to those practitioners of RHP religion?

These are all obviously rhetorical questions to a great extent, but I guess I’m still compelled from time to time to present them when I encounter “Satanists” ostensibly advocating better acceptance and understanding from society at large. Can’t they just become “goths” for that…?

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#52869 - 04/13/11 05:23 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Tesseract]
MindFux Offline
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Posts: 174
V/S is a fucking retard. I apologize that this is a short post, but that's the NET of it. She may have driven up participation, because she has a loyal following of retards that like her tits and have similar 'New Age' leanings, but they're far from representative of Satanism. In fact the very video you post here indicates a complete misunderstanding of what your average Satanist that isn't just adopting a label as an excuse to wear black make-up and bang Gothic chicks thinks and feels. (Not that banging Gothic chicks isn't a worthwhile hobby but I digress).

She's some weird mixture of Dark Paganism and fairy worship, and she seems to have actually married Santa. (I shit you not, clock the guy in the background of her famed pole dancing video).

Her views are a weird and eclectic post-modern mixture of utter shit, and listening to her opinion on Satanism is like listening to an oil companies views on environmental conservation. In both cases the ulterior motives (in her case selling enough of her private pole dancing web sessions to avoid living in a box) shine through.

The very fact that her crowd are participating in this thing means it will likely end up being frighteningly skewed to the side of fairy worship, rather than Satanism.


Edited by MindFux (04/13/11 05:24 PM)

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#52870 - 04/13/11 05:25 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Tesseract]
Fnord Offline
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I had that same reaction to it, Tesseract.

How can one be adversarial while always trying to extend the hand of friendship?

It's better they continue to fear us and it's better our practices/motivations remain mysterious to them.

Mainstream Satanism? The two words should be anathema to one another.
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#52871 - 04/13/11 05:31 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mister Cage Offline
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Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread


She has youtube subs, but only because of the pole dancing videos(she has since removed).


And an extremely effective form of LBM, might i add. But stiull only a lure at best.

She appeals to the younger croud of the Satanic population and this being said im sure the survey will be full of inaccuracies.

I obviously should'nt complain because ive decided not to participate, however i state this only to be noted in the future when the math is added up to reveal what it ultimately will, a bunch of 16 year olds who cant decipher the difference between the Star of David from an inverted pentigram.


Edited by Mister Cage (04/13/11 05:32 PM)

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#52872 - 04/13/11 05:59 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Mister Cage]
Dan_Dread Offline
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I suppose that depends what you define as 'the satanic population'. As the overwhelming majority of anyone that takes her even remotely serious could not be described as Satanic, any survey data gained from these people would be pretty worthless.

But then again, that is the problem in general with trying to gain survey data from a population like this. There are way more people that think Satan is cool than there are Satanists.
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#52873 - 04/13/11 06:03 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Fnord]
Tesseract Offline
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Registered: 02/08/11
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Loc: United States
 Quote:
How can one be adversarial while always trying to extend the hand of friendship?


Well, and succinctly put. I suppose there might be some small contingent of serious, theistic Satanists who tell themselves, and all who will listen, that “Satan” is actually a benign, misunderstood entity, and much like wiccans trying to reform the public perception of “witchcraft”, are attempting to rehabilitate Satan in the eyes of the subscribers to the Abrahamic religions.

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#52875 - 04/13/11 06:47 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Tesseract]
Gueheriet Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 23
Sorry for my bad english.
I did the survey just because I also do a lot of field work on social studies and know how difficult to obtain data may be, but the whole rehabilitating Satan thing makes me nervous.
In my opinion Satanism must be dangerous and defiant, we don´t need to be seen as nice people ("oh those funny atheists who like black metal") we must be wolves among sheep. Not because we are gonna hurt their bodies, but because we are the accusers the ones who tell them the truths they don´t wanna listen and the ones who defy their stupids moral and social dogmas.

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#52896 - 04/14/11 12:58 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
So say what you want.


Alrighty then.

I can't vouch for her taste in men, but VS isn't that bad as far as dark-pagan internet spokespeople go. She was one of the first people I conversed directly with about Satanism as a practitioner, and I do have a certain amount of respect for her-- poledancing antics nonwithstanding. But neither am I interested in her attempts to present the "Satanic Community" as some sort of minireligion/subculture in want of mainstream respect like every other attention-hungry sect out there.

It's a tight-ass, elitist, and philosophical sort of thing, really. Guess I just have my approach while everybody else has their own.

 Quote:
I am frankly impressed.


I as well. Still haven't seen results for the second survey though. >_>


Edited by The Zebu (04/14/11 12:59 AM)
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#52898 - 04/14/11 01:51 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Tesseract]
Jim Lewis Offline
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Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway

Well, I suppose I should have anticipated these sorts of reactions and not bothered to make this post.

I've spent a large part of my academic career undermining stereotypes, and can't quite get it through my head that certain Satanists prefer to maintain their particular stereotype.

What's useful about the responses this post has evoked is that they provide me with a basis for discussing the reasoning behind why certain Satanists refused to participate.

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#52900 - 04/14/11 02:34 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
can't quite get it through my head that certain Satanists prefer to maintain their particular stereotype.


It's not just Satanists; lots of people live up to their stereotype. Earlier today I was almost sideswiped on my way to the bank by an elderly Asian woman who tried to change lanes into me, forcing me into the turn refuge lane.
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#52901 - 04/14/11 02:37 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Jim Lewis

What's useful about the responses this post has evoked is that they provide me with a basis for discussing the reasoning behind why certain Satanists refused to participate.



Which is quite unproductive, considering that the number of respondents AND non-respondents would be statistically meaningless, based upon the hyper microscopic view this thread would provide. As the respondents on this site alone, let alone in this thread, is extremely small, I would contend that extrapolation to any meaningful demographic grouping would be "guess work" at best and rank speculation at worst.

There is no documented survey of world wide Satanists from which to draw such conclusions. You've indicated that you receive in the neighborhood of 100-150 responses, which is hardly adequate as a statistical base to draw any real conclusion. For example, here on the 600 Club, we have 4,592 as of today. While surely not ALL will now declare themselves SATANISTS, it is reasonable to assume that many will, or did at the time of their registration. That's THIS SITE ALONE. There are also thousands of others identifying as SATANIST at MCOS, JOS, SIN, LTTD, and hundreds of other "Satanic" sites across the web. Even allowing for duplications in membership, the remaining number would far outstrip your respondent pool.

And even there, one cannot accurately quantify the number of individuals for whom the term "Satanist" is a personal touchstone. How many more slip through the cracks because they simply don't plug in to any of the available sites, have decided they would rather remain anonymous, or any one of a thousand other reasons not to wave the flag and declare themselves for your survey?

At best, what you have is a vocally willing subset of an unquantifiable pool, which provides virtually no useable information for extrapolation to the whole. All you can site is what THIS thread's respondents have said. Each individual in this highly individualistic philosophy/religion speaks only for themselves.
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#52902 - 04/14/11 03:03 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
SinisterMoon Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Jim Lewis
I've spent a large part of my academic career undermining stereotypes, and can't quite get it through my head that certain Satanists prefer to maintain their particular stereotype.


With respect, I think you're making assumptions here. What is the origin of the stereotypes associated with Satanism? Not us - not we who seriously living that *way* of life. They're just assumptions made by *the others* based on some -ism or some -ology.

For myself - and I guess many folks here - I don't give a damn about *stereotypes*. We are what we are because for the most part we are diverse very different individuals who follow our own path(s) which can be loosely described as Satanism. Many of us even disagree about what we believe Satanism to be.

Speaking for myself, Stereotypes belong to mundanes and their mundane world - and we often defy them by choice. If others ape some mundane stereotype of Satanism, that's they're choice, but IMO it doesn't necessarily mean they are Satanists.

 Originally Posted By: Jim Lewis
What's useful about the responses this post has evoked is that they provide me with a basis for discussing the reasoning behind why certain Satanists refused to participate.


For myself, refusal because who cares what others think or believe about us? I don't care - in truth, the more misunderstandings about us, the better \:\)

It's not about popularity or image - it's about living a certain way, doing certain things (some magickal, others practical).

Also, many of us distrust such things by nature and intent, especially if they seem *official*. If you do the survey, for example, is the IP address logged? Where is the data kept and how? Encrypted? Available to whom? Etcetera.

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#52903 - 04/14/11 05:29 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: SinisterMoon]
Diavolo Offline
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I agree here, there are many that care little for the stereotyping and it is only an issue to those and being public about it and preferring to be accepted as satanists by society out there. Others might see the very acceptance of society as rather detrimental. As a result, you'll encounter those who oppose the stereotyping, those who are either not bothered or amused by it and those who deliberately contribute to those public perceptions.

Satanists are a pretty weird bunch compared to other religious or philosophical branches out there and what applies to those, not always applies to us.

D.

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#52904 - 04/14/11 06:59 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Tesseract]
Jim Lewis Offline
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Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway

I left a rather neutral response to this discussion before I went to the dentist this morning, and must have forgotten to press 'submit.'

Anyway, this morning I noted that I probably should have known better than to have posted that link. I also observed that I now have some explanations as to why certain Satanists would not want to participate -- so potentially every post on this forum feeds into my research project in one way or the other.

On the bus and while having my tooth worked on, I had some other, more provocative thoughts.

I am aware that one of the favorite sports in these kinds of forums is to trash other Satanists as being "not really" Satanists -- "pseudo-Satanists," to use CoS's thought-stopping cliche. However, given that contemporary Satanism is an anarchistic subculture with no recognized central authority, there really can be no objective criterion for making such judgement calls.

I mean, no one's seriously going to say, "Well, according to the Satanic Bible, chaper two, verse five, where it says...." in support of some point of doctrine.

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#52905 - 04/14/11 07:25 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Jim Lewis Offline
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Registered: 02/24/11
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"Which is quite unproductive, considering that the number of respondents AND non-respondents would be statistically meaningless, based upon the hyper microscopic view this thread would provide. As the respondents on this site alone, let alone in this thread, is extremely small, I would contend that extrapolation to any meaningful demographic grouping would be 'guess work' at best and rank speculation at worst."

My statement says "certain Satanists," and does not generalize to make an assertion about all Satanists.

More generally, any study that reaches conclusions based on a sample and not on the entire population is open to the criticism of sampling bias. I raised this issue and discussed it in "Who Serves Satan?"

Over the years, however, I've had numerous Satanists give me feedback on that piece, all positive. The only negative feedback I've ever received is from Chris Mathews in his Modern Satanism book, who trashed me for describing Satanism as a "mature religious option." He was also obviously quite angry that I didn't portray Satanists as a bunch of Nazis.

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#52906 - 04/14/11 07:32 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Diavolo Offline
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You are right there are no objective criteria for what is satanic but that's the sheer beauty of all this arguing; personal interpretations at conflict. All conflict is beneficial and if a view can't withstand criticism, it is time for a change.

I have my specific views upon Satanism and will express those although I prefer all others, or all new to it, to just make up their own mind, but not assume I will therefor take it serious or not put my foot upon it.

I think you are mistaken about the bible-thumping. It is quite rare now but in the past, it was not that uncommon to invoke the authority of Lavey or TSB in an attempt to establish the real truth.

D.

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#52907 - 04/14/11 07:56 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Jim Lewis Offline
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Registered: 02/24/11
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"Also, many of us distrust such things by nature and intent, especially if they seem *official*. If you do the survey, for example, is the IP address logged? Where is the data kept and how? Encrypted? Available to whom? Etcetera."

Valid concerns. At present, the only people with access to the Survey Monkey account are myself and Helen Berger (until recently she was at Westchester University; currently at Brandeis). Helen, who is the primary author of Voices from the Pagan Census, is using our joint accout to research Neopagans.

I have never heard of hackers getting into Survey Monkey, though there can be no guarantees. The government, of course, can gain access to any online account - including the 600 Club - if they so wish. I plan to download all of the information and store it offline after my research project is over, and then delete the data from Survey Monkey. At the request of several respondents, the raw data will never be made public.

Survey Monkey is set up so that one can collect or not collect IP addresses. I am not collecting IP addresses.

Thus I have taken reasonable precautions, but not 'secret agent'-level precautions.

As for trusting me: I don't know how "official" I am. I'm employed at a Norwegian university, and my primary audience is mainstream academia. After researching Satanism for a dozen years, the only Satanist group that has ever suffered from my work is the post-LaVey Church of Satan, which I criticized in my online article, "Diabolical Authority" (a long story that I don't intend to share in an online forum).

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#52908 - 04/14/11 07:56 AM Re: Stockholm Satanism Conference; New Questionnaire [Re: Jim Lewis]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
This survey asks the wrong questions. I couldn't answer yes or no to many of the questions because I'm not involved in those things which are alien to my lifestyle.

I see the survey as being a mundane society related survey more like a community census form. I could have answered it in many ways and to not subvert the test I'd have to give yes or no answers that would be out of context to say the least. Most of it seems aimed at sensing for propensity of criminality and psychopathy.

Satan is freedom, Satan is not limited to clinical questions that are alien to Satanism. I am not willing to write a block of text in every single "other" or "optional comment" box because I was not compelled to make one dimensional views attached to myself. But here is one set I could answer with a fixed view. Example.

62. What types of violence can be justified?

Physically Punish a Child?
Completely unnecessary as children understand communication. Children learn their own lessons through rough and tumble in the garden and through play about what is hard to fall on, sharp or dangerous. Who hurts a child instead of making communication? It seems to be acceptable among religious cults but they call it corrective discipline.

Strike Someone Who Attacks You?
By default this is self explanatory. Some blows can be shrugged off and the purp humiliated and laughed at. Retaliation is dependent on the severity of the situation, as in, if a friend attacks you from emotional troubles you obviously don't hospitalise him but fight fairly, but why would a friend hurt you anyway? surely over misunderstanding. But all in all I like to make sure a real enemy is crippled, tortured.


Strike Someone Who Attacks a Loved One?
As close to lethal as you can get away with, torture is optional and risky because efficient calculated violence would be the safest way to ensure loved ones are free from threat.


Kill Other Soldiers During War?
By default this is self explanatory as war is war. If it means killing your own soldiers or not is a different matter.


Kill Someone Who Breaks Into Your Home?
Expect to be killed if you are foolish enough to break into another's home.


Execute Convicted Murderers?
Only by ones own hands because the state law of execution is a dishonouring service. To have the naturality of revenge taken away by law officials would be more emotionally traumatising and soul destroying than the loss of ones loved ones alone, being the reason those seeking to execute revenge must do so.

Then the state may say "then you ought to be put to death for taking revenge" then I shall say "who on earth is going to want revenge? Interfering strangers that have feelings of loving protection for those who would kill without reason?"

Anyone who interferes with another's life ought to expect violence or at best make a conscious attempt to explain why it was an accident and apologise with manners. After all Satanism is freedom and with freedom comes ultimate responsibility, to take liberties from others one must either be foolish or just plain stupid.

Respect wild animals (Satanist), or like the dregs feeling protected by society, take petty liberties and infringe others space for petty gain but be prepared to take the repercussions you deserve.

I'm sure mob justice is satisfactory if the perpetrator is a grown male and the victim was a orphan for example. In Venezuela the children join in to burn paedophiles alive. What care do we for that which Nature has turned her face from and forsaken.
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#52909 - 04/14/11 08:01 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Jim Lewis Offline
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Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway

"I think you are mistaken about the bible-thumping. It is quite rare now but in the past, it was not that uncommon to invoke the authority of Lavey or TSB in an attempt to establish the real truth."

You're right. I even quote some of these people in "Diabolical Authority."

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#52910 - 04/14/11 08:17 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Jim Lewis Offline
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Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway
Reply to Svort Verda Solkin:

Many items in the questionnaire are there for the purpose of comparison rather than purely for the purpose of producing a profile of Satanists. Some of the items from the General Social Survey, for example, allow me to compare certain Satanist attitudes with the attitudes of the general population.

Also, Helen Berger included that same violence item in her Paganism questionnaire. It turns out that a larger percentage of Satanists said that one should 'never' punish a child, whereas the larger percentage of Neopagans said that one should 'rarely' punish a child. I know that's a tiny difference, but nevertheless interesting (to me at least). It makes one rethink the assumption that Satanists would be harsher parents than Neopagans.



Edited by Jim Lewis (04/14/11 08:19 AM)
Edit Reason: typo

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#52913 - 04/14/11 09:40 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
SinisterMoon Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
First off, let me thank you for taking the time and trouble to engage directly with us, and not only respond to our questions/doubts/moans but for doing the survey in the first place.

 Originally Posted By: Jim Lewis
It turns out that a larger percentage of Satanists said that one should 'never' punish a child, whereas the larger percentage of Neopagans said that one should 'rarely' punish a child. I know that's a tiny difference, but nevertheless interesting (to me at least). It makes one rethink the assumption that Satanists would be harsher parents than Neopagans.


Agreed that's such replies are interesting in some ways, but one is assuming, surely, several things here, such as (1) that the answers given are honest; (2) that the people responding are *Satanists*; and (3) that those responding are possibly in some way a representative sample of *Satanists*.

Which again leads one to questions such as - what is Satanism and who are Satanists? In respect of the latter, are they those who describe themselves thus? Or is there some criteria one might suggest and apply to ascertain whether or not such self descriptions are valid?

Having read much of the academic literature on the subject, a lot seems to me rather unscholarly - often mere repetition of what some self-professed *Satanists* have said/written or what has been said/written about them and their writings (such as they are).

Rigorous research, spanning years and involving scholarly minutiae, seems somewhat absent. The formulation of opinion based on hasty or superficial *research* seems to the norm.

I give just one example of the latter. Graham Harvey's opinion - in a rehash of an earlier article by him - in Contemporary Religious Satanism: A Critical Anthology that Anton Long is Beesty Boy (C. Beest) and his reliance on the biased views of a person since disappeared from the Occult scene. An opinion formulated and publicly expressed by Harvey without even bothering to contact the two individuals in question, let alone meet them, and let alone read/study any of their works. Not only expressed by Harvey, but published in a work by a mainstream publisher with the word *Critical* in the title! One seriously wonders about the type of peer review involved.

In that same article, Harvey glibly asserts – without referencing any sources or presenting any evidence at all – that what he calls the ONA’s complexity of cosmology is just some elaboration of ideas that are "common ground to many esotericists and to sci-fi films and books."

Instead of studying primary sources (and individuals) in a diligent manner, over a scholarly period of time, and then formulating an opinion on the basis of such sources, there are hasty conclusions based on limited or shoddy research.

Unfortunately, this example is not the exception.

Perhaps part - or most? - of this is due to this being a relative new area of academic research, and a lack of scholarly definitions.

So, possibly a good start would be for there to be a scholarly study of Satanism by an academic individual - a study which would involve years of detailed research, and which research which would form the basis of a proposed definition of what Satanism actually is, and which study would be *definitive* (at least academically) until replaced by an equally scholarly one, and which research would involve detailed analysis of modern Satanic writings and personal interviews with the principle individuals involved.

Surely this would be much better than everyone writing the same sort of excuses about the difficulties of *defining Satanism* (modern and otherwise)? For wouldn't this one scholarly tome stimulate other academics to agree/disagree and thus move the subject forward in a scholarly way?

/rant \:\)

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#52916 - 04/14/11 10:02 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
 Originally Posted By: Jim Lewis

Well, I suppose I should have anticipated these sorts of reactions and not bothered to make this post.

I've spent a large part of my academic career undermining stereotypes, and can't quite get it through my head that certain Satanists prefer to maintain their particular stereotype.

What's useful about the responses this post has evoked is that they provide me with a basis for discussing the reasoning behind why certain Satanists refused to participate.



Cheer up, Jim. The Temple of THEM will respond to your survey. We'll post it on our wordpress too.

Ps - I have come across Venus Satanas in the past -I had no problems with her or her intentions at all. Jim, I have spent a hell of a lot of time on forums discussing the intimate ins and outs of my views including my Satanic views with all and sundry. If you are willing to hear what I have to say then I'm all in. I appreciate the opportunity. And - the idea being floated that you as an academic may somehow skew what I say is laughable to me. I am less worried about an academic (and I understand you're a friend of JC/Arktos -another decent academic) misunderstanding me than half the people who frequent forums seem to.

ISS,
RA


Edited by Khk (04/14/11 10:23 AM)
Edit Reason: clairty

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#52918 - 04/14/11 10:41 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Jim Lewis

I've spent a large part of my academic career undermining stereotypes, and can't quite get it through my head that certain Satanists prefer to maintain their particular stereotype.


Well, the problem is, as I see it, the interpretation of the word "Satanism".

It's not really people being stereotypical, it's more in people taking umbrage with other folks usage of that particular word. To some it's completely mystical and to others it's completely devoid of mysticism. Trying to lump that group of people together under a single banner is like trying to lump 1943 Nazis and Jews together by calling them European.

I apologize though if I came off as flippant or arrogant or anything of the like. I think your research is interesting and worthwhile and I appreciate all of your efforts to engage us directly to get at the truth. Few have been as brave or honorable with their intentions.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#52931 - 04/14/11 11:48 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Fnord]
Jim Lewis Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway
SinisterMoon:

There is a Danish fellow, Jesper Aagaard Petersen, who is just now completing his Ph.D. in Religious Studies from the Norwegian University of Science and Technology (the comparison is problematic, but it's sort of the Norwegian MIT). He edited the volume in which the Harvey piece you criticize appeared. (Harvey is a leading scholar of Neopaganism, not Satanism.)

Jesper has been researching Satanism for years--though I don't know how many f2f interviews he's done--and is the closest person I know to being a scholar of Satanism. There's also a graduate student at the U of Stockholm, Per Faxnell, who is similarly focused, though he has been more interested in the pre-LaVey history of modern Satanism.

As I noted in my 2001 article, Who Serves Satan?, there had been almost no serious scholarly work on the topic up to that point. I don't think this situation really started to change until the Trondheim Satanism conference in 2009. Most of the papers given at that conference are still online. FYI:

http://www.ntnu.no/iar/konferanser/satanisminthemodernworld/papers

All the Best,

Jim

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#52932 - 04/14/11 11:57 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Question: doesn't Satanism occasionally depress you and make you wonder why the hell you even got into this?

When looking from your perspective, I see a bunch not that willing to cooperate, constantly at war with itself and not managing to agree upon anything and even when they “help” one isn't sure if their intentions are honest or if they are deliberately misleading. I mean, I'd surely would throw in the towel and move to something less stressing.

It requires quite some courage what you are doing.

D.

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#52933 - 04/14/11 12:04 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Khk]
Jim Lewis Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway

Khk,

Sure. Please go ahead and post the link on your site. The 2006 Australian census recorded over 2,000 Australians who self-identified as Satanists. I'd like to hear from some of them.

Also, in the second survey, some of the more articulate participants were ONA-inspired respondents. So I would like to hear more from you.

(FYI: As you may or may not be aware, the Temple of THEM was discussed in a paper delivered at the Trondheim Satanism conference: http://www.ntnu.no/c/document_library/ge...&groupId=10244)


All the Best,

Jim

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#52935 - 04/14/11 12:22 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Diavolo]
Jim Lewis Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway

D.,

Well, like any group of people, Satanists run the gamut. The Satanists I've met f2f are quite different from each other. The single trait they share is that a part of them enjoys pissing people off -- I say that to their faces, and they just smile.

How I got into this and why I keep studying Satanism is a lengthy story that I don't want to get into at the moment, but I will say there's a part of me that finds Satanists to be a breath of fresh air compared with some of the other people and groups I study.


All the Best,

Jim

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#52937 - 04/14/11 12:27 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Lol. Well, Jim, you're in luck. I actually worked for the Australian Bureau of Statistics - which drastically altered my confidence in the Aust Govt's ability to get anything done or manage the country. I did think the number was higher, say 30,000 - I should look it up in the 2006 year book we recieved, presuming its there.

I would have been among that few that self-identified. And I have just answered your survey.

Yes, I heard we were mentioned. Interestingly, when asked by George Sieg about the Temple it was before sweeping changes were made to our current. So the information Sieg was given was accurate at the time but is no longer applicable. Unless of course it was JC who provided the paper - who may or may not have had more insight at the time, but we have changed regardless. We have several views in fact, an NLP view, a form-based view, and an earth-based sorcery all insulated from one another. We're also the Australian Nexion of the ONA. if you would like to know more, visit Mvimaedivm Wordpress.

ISS,
RA

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#52939 - 04/14/11 12:35 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
A child can't be "punished" in the context of Christian morality, because they are utterly inexperienced and hence they cannot know what they are doing is detrimental to their own lives, a child learns through experience and if you have to present a unfortunate conclusion to them they will either take heed or not. One cannot take complete control over a child s life and repress them in soul. It's hard and stressful work that makes you worry. Only communication and trust can lead both parent and child to work together on common goals, the parent ought to look at their child's life as more important than their own comfort and relaxation. A lot of parents just want a quick fix routine that breaks down the spirit of their children into herd mentality, slave morality. Only through gaining experience in alignment with a child's developing propensity of will can carve a strong personality.

Christianity is a good training obstacle to cultivate a decision maker, all the illogical and unnatural ideas around religion are good to divide the herd. After all, Jesus laughed a great deal among his disciples.

Now, would "good" monotheist parents in their perfect wisdom suckled from the bosom of all knowing one, know what would be the reaction to the indoctrination that they are secretly using to help their children rebel? And in this can we see a loving manipulation to ensure the child develops a strong will and sense of defiance to illogical propositions as a self sufficient decision maker? Surely not, in this we can see that the good lord is not meaning to covertly cultivate any sense of self-worth in his children but rather inclined to molest them with indoctrination.

It makes one rethink the assumption that Satanists would be harsher parents than Neopagans.[sic]

A two way comment, insofar as we could rethink that a Satanist could be lenient as compared to the Pagan, or we could see that "rethink" would be to preserve the realisation that Satanist are harsher still.

Who are these Satanist? Who are these Neo-Pagans? Is there a statistic which defines the individual? Unless the survey is an attempt to make it appear as though there are correlations which indicate a mythical sameness exists between Satanist' whom do not "punish" children insinuating that "punish" is being synonymous with "teach". In this we see that to teach a child is not down to "punishment" but an array of experience accumulated into self discipline which can be very harsh indeed and has nothing to do with submission which is not discipline, discipline lies is the affirmation of will.

Satanist are the harshest parents of all. Why? because we send a child into life, we teach, demonstrate and expose them to life by never turning their eyes away from the light, if one turns away from the light of the world one will see nothing but the darkness of falsity. Could facing a child to look directly into the light so that they may see darkness there, ever be considered less harsh than keeping a child in the dark until one day the parent is not there, the child steps out into the light and without any knowledge of what is there, they brave the elements in complete confusion and vulnerability.

Sheltering children is not the something a Satanist would do. Such a behaviour would be considered morbidly unrealistic.
_________________________


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#52943 - 04/14/11 01:41 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Hegesias]
Jim Lewis Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway
Svort Verda Solkin,

Well, it's not a simple question about punishment. Rather, the item is stated more starkly as "Physically punish a child." It is framed by the overarching question, "What types of violence can be justified?"

All parents punish their children in some way. I think respondents interpreted the question as hitting children (which was the connotation I intended).


All the Best,

Jim



Edited by Jim Lewis (04/14/11 01:47 PM)
Edit Reason: elaboration

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#52949 - 04/14/11 02:28 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I see, how strange a test would ask about violence to children in relation to Satanism?

I find that very odd.

Now I will continue to subvert the other Christian conspiracies within the survey.
_________________________


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#52954 - 04/14/11 04:25 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Hegesias]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I doubt very much there are subvert christian conspiracies in the survey. Some questions are likely related towards specific stereotypes and provide data for the relevance of them.

There is enough usable material to be found online without having to do the effort of constructing a survey when desiring to paint a dark picture of Satanism.

D.

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#52963 - 04/14/11 08:17 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1724
Loc: New York
I like Venus Satanas. Although I don’t agree with her views on Satanism, I do find her videos an interesting way to spend some time.....and I didn’t even see that pole dancing video.
At one time I was even thinking about purchasing some of her sketches that she sells, which I find very appealing.

Eh, but what do I know, I like most of you fuckers too, although sometimes I have no clue what you are talking about \:\)
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#52971 - 04/15/11 12:26 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
The Left-Hand Path represents transgressing boundaries. This is open to interpretation, but even so, there are different lengths at which individuals will go in order to 'break the mold' and stay true to their principles.

Satanism is horrifying to many people because it represents the complete rejection of all objective morality and decency. From the perspective of the true Antinomian, there is no intrinsic principle standing between him/her and every behavioral atrocity imaginable, such as murder, rape, holocaust, and infanticide. To say that Satanists "absolutely do not (kill infants, harm animals, etc)" is a philosophical lie.

But if I were to say this in a press statement as a public spokesperson for a Satanic organization, it would be a PR disaster. The public would not bother to listen to my further elaborations about personal honor and the social contract, or how animal torture and infanticide are ontologically neutral behaviors that even conventional society commits through hunting and abortion (in a desensitized fashion due to reduced social cues, might I add). As a result I would become the target of sensational smear articles erroneously claiming that my statement was as "incitement" or "endorsement" of mutilating animals, devouring fetuses, and kicking puppies.

Or, for the sake of brevity and political correctness, I could simply (and dogmatically) state, "Satanists are law-abiding citizens. We don't eat babies. Have a nice day." But better yet, I could simply NOT become a public spokesperson for Satanism in the first place, simply so I wouldn't have to parrot such idiotic disclaimers every time a reporter came knocking on my door.

Now while I have no problem appeasing the public on occasion as my mild-mannered alter-ego who holds a job, pays taxes, and shops for groceries-- the whole reason that I deal with Satanism in the first place is because I have an opportunity to leave all of that ethical baggage at the door and confront reality at its rawest. So why in hell would I want to get dog shit on the carpet by trying to make Satanism look respectable to other people? I'd rather keep my mouth shut on the matter.

Any attempt to convey Satanism to others instantly dilutes the essence of the original idea, including my own post here. It is only a matter of how much one minds diluting it-- in my case, I find using groups, covens, and online forums to be worth the cost, but draw the line at the public. It is an entirely personal preference.

======================================
PS

I am not 'against' sociological studies of Satanism per se-- it is not realistic to expect researchers to have the same intimate experiences and definitions regarding Satanism that a "true practitioner" (read, my own personal opinion) might have. So in summary, while I might be very elitist in my closer preferences and opinions, it is not unreasonable to give some leeway to researchers such as yourself for the sake of scholastic curiosity.


Edited by The Zebu (04/15/11 12:31 AM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#52972 - 04/15/11 01:23 AM Thoths Answers [Re: The Zebu]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
These were my answers to the optional questions.


10
I encourage my child to think carefully about the world and the things that present themselves to him. I explain as much as possible the depth and connection between one thing and another to build an empathic, intuitive understanding of causal effects, consequence and tradition - both my partner (female) and I take the responsibility of raising an aware, intelligent, and empathic child seriously, each adding as much as we can to help him function safely and navigate the challenges of the world as an independant being. I have never encouraged anybody under the age of 18 to join the ONA or THEM, I actively condemn acts of violence, rudeness or hostility and sanction what my younger child views. My older child is given reign to live as he sees fit but was asked to leave our house for stealing from us because of the atmosphere of trust being broken among family. I do not think children have the faculties to join in the serious nature of Satanism - nor do I think they should be involved at any level. If I were to advocate the culling principle of Satanism as held by THEM/ONA - parents who Do irresponsibly indoctrinate their children in Satanic practices would be ideal opfers.

18
My beliefs are that any form neccessary to get the job done, whatever it may be, may require political stance x to be adopted. My political stance can therefore change if it needs to.

23
Yes. But these should be dealt with on a 1-1 basis. If a woman is raped, she should have the immediate right to terminate the foetus.

33
Caucasian -Irish Descendant

38
I prayed to God to save a man. But God did not answer my prayer. The man I prayed for died. I vowed that if God wouldn't listen maybe Satan would. I prayed to Satan. God appeared. It changed what I may have become.

43
SATH, Anton Long, David Myatt,ONA, My Mother, My Partner (Nine Rays), Jung, Nietzsche, HItler, Terry Pratchett, Aristotle, too many others to name.

44
Mvimaedivm Wordpress
Sinister 101 Syndicate @ yahoo groups
The 600 Club
Nexus Magazine
Yes. Daily.

47
Magic is a form. Forms can be any of the above and more - or none of the above - it all depends on the person and what they load into their mind and how they perceive - (through their 23 syndrome)

48
Christian (past), Druid (past), Wiccan (past) - Satanist (current).

54
My view is that if you can change a persons view, you change the way they interact with others, and set off a chain reaction that can cause change to the world. Change to the world can then cause change to the self. So, merely talking with others about their views is for me, an aspect of magic.

55
Through using only my mind I managed to induce an LSD-based experience by believing in the principles outlined about energy control in the Celestine Prophecy. I floated off the ground and felt high for a few hours, travelling far from home in a spiritual reverie. It convinced me that, if I could load my mind with enough suggestion to do something like that with something as new-age as the Celestine Prophecy - then I could do much more with something very serious like the Order of Nine Angles. I remain convinced that much magic is all in the mind - but this doesnt make it any less effective.

56
But also all of the above. There are valid ways to justify the form of each option as co-existing simultaneously.

57
I use an anonymous name online. I tell very few people what I am or do or believe by using the word Satan or Satanist. I am careful to keep my two worlds seperate.

58
Yes. It is a greatly stigmatized religion - employers, friends, even my parents have greatly feared or expressed fear or disdain for Satanism, Devil Worship or the acts associated with it. I have found myself at odds with the world ever since becoming a Satanist - believing that the world is unable to release itself from its dualized tradition of view and is therefore unable to recognize Satanism outside of its generic context. The world is not friendly to strangers, or the unknown - it is based on fear - and Satan, as an irrational force, calls forth that fear. I therefore remain anonymous and silent about my involvement.

59
I prayed to God to save a man. But God did not answer my prayer. The man I prayed for died. I vowed that if God wouldn't listen maybe Satan would. I prayed to Satan. God appeared. It changed what I may have become.
I wrote my Diary of a DevilworshippR (Mvimaedivm) series to elucidate the changes and states of mind and practice I went through and am still going through. It is though, likely that my absent father was responsible for my need to seek out an alternate and superhuman male role model who would not leave me or disappoint me. Boy was I wrong. lol. But that was probably the underlying cause.

60
Yes. I believe Satan is an interpretation of a force far older than its namesake, that originated in our original fear from our first experience of being born into the world and having no names, no forms, no control over it - it must have been terrifying. Therefore as a reaction, we evolved form to reign in the chaos around us. This lead on to Gods, but we did not recognize the unconscious psyche at the time, and its ferocity frightened us. We kept it back, and evolved the conscious ego. But the beast inside us still kept coming. It became synonymous with evil, the devil, demons, bad mojo. We therefore recognzie the archetype of satan in many ways, many guises, but all through a remembrance perhaps - of our original fear and the desperate scramble to cover chaos with forms, understanding, religion and meaning that now takes place. But underneath it, in quiet moments, or when our castles collapse, we glimpse the Devil and his smiling face - and see things for what they really are. But most of us quickly cover them back up again.

61
All of the above. Satanism is a form. An empty slate, where anyone can write anything they wish. That perhaps is the appeal.

62
Anything can be justified - its our human habit of natural deciet. It goes back to the 23 syndrome - and the fact that we can convince ourselves (or be convinced) of Anything. So, all things, all views are inherently valueless. We give them value - but that doesn't mean they have it. Because we also give values, form. Its a big old selfish wheel - no one is right - but the strongest form, wins through.

63
I dont know. Its complicated - different cultures, different reasons. I just dont kill animals. I can see why others do as part of their culture and habitual traditions. I dont think its my place to judge them or suggest they stop since I hapiily eat meat and allow all manner of cruelty, blood-letting and indignancy to occur to animals in my complacent willingness to eat that meat.

65
A stepping stone. Important in a greater context than his individual emergence. The Satanic Bible is an inverted Bible - but it was a start. The CoS bring many some of the way - we do the rest.

66
I'm not a member of the Church of Satan.
We are the Temple of THEM - in relation to the CoS - we have virtually nothing in common except a dislike and disdain for Christian values. Yet the CoS strikes me as just as Christian as the Church proper. It merely inverts Christianity - it does nothing to prevent, change, or alter Christianity - rather, it adds fuel to those crazy bastards fires by being the Devil They want.

67
There is a great deal I could add, hundreds of pages in fact Jim. But my laptop battery is fading and I wrote what I have written so that I would not have to painstakingly repeat myself and re-write those hundreds of pages. Further information from us is available from Mvimadivm Wordpress - or for my autobiography you can purchase Diary of a DevilworshippR, or I think it is available freely from Scribd.

Thank you for your interest, good luck with your survey.

ISS,
RA of THEM






Edited by Khk (04/15/11 01:23 AM)

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#52974 - 04/15/11 03:38 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3114
 Quote:
Many items in the questionnaire are there for the purpose of comparison rather than purely for the purpose of producing a profile of Satanists. Some of the items from the General Social Survey, for example, allow me to compare certain Satanist attitudes with the attitudes of the general population.


And you'll quickly find out that the attitudes of Satanists are comparable with those of the general population. Why is that? Because Satanists belong to the general population. The mistake you are making (and many, many others) is that they want to see Satanists as a separate group with different features and/or powers/attitudes. The truth is, we aren't.

The only thing that really matters within the philosophy is not the occult knowledge nor followers or the one who can quote and/or live up towards "Satanic virtues" as described by ASL. The only thing that really matters is the manifestation of a person. His combined will and knowledge, his presence in the real world, his goals (whatever they may be) and how to achieve them, his actions, his words,.. Hence why some people are being regarded of having Satanic virtues and ideals but in reality have no link whatsoever with Satanism. That is the only difference which seperates us. And even that seperation is quite subtle since there are others who do not call themselves Satanists who do the same thing.

You can take a look at the "big names". People like Boyd Rice, M.A.A. and Anton Long are, by most of the people, regarded as "true" Satanists. (Each with their separate fanbase ofcourse..). There are a few common grounds but in general it can be said the 3 of them have very different personas. It is only their manifestation which gave them the status they have now.

Thus, I honestly find the questionnaire of the same level on facebook. Entertainment.

I must admit it takes away much of the dark and mysterious sphere around the philosophy. But in essence, man and its ways in itself are already dark enough.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#52975 - 04/15/11 04:03 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Dimitri]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

And you'll quickly find out that the attitudes of Satanists are comparable with those of the general population. Why is that? Because Satanists belong to the general population.


That a good point Dimitri. I agree.

Maybe to build on that. IMO, as a subculture "Satanism" takes on the "shape" of General Population. General-Pop being in the shape of a Diamond.

You have the middle part of the diamond of the subculture of Satanism filled with the common and average ones. Then as the Diamond tapers up the IQ or Level of Understanding increases. So eventually you have "Satanists" like Aquino, Myatt/Long, Jason King, MindFux, Dan Dread, Khk, etc at the top half somewhere.

Then as we go down we enter Joy of Satan terrotory lol. And the very bottom point of the Diamond of Satanism's subculture is Blackwood [IQ = 40].

That's just my opinion. Basically the point is that perhaps as a "sub-culture" Satanism generally reflects society in general.


Edited by Caladrius (04/15/11 04:12 AM)
_________________________
.:.gone fishing.:.

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#52990 - 04/15/11 10:26 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Caladrius]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Of course satanists will reflect similarities with the general populace. On a large enough scale there will be very little difference besides the label used to describe the subgroup they are part of.

But not all in society see it as such and consider satanists a sub-species of humanity who probably do everything quite different and raise their kids telling them their puppy not went to puppy heaven but that it will rot and be devoured by maggots. They probably raise their kids to be evil and punish them when being brave. There are probably a lot of people out there that think Satanism is caused by something and as such, can easily be solved too. Like one can solve homosexuality. It must be disappointing to them to find out satanists are not that different, give or take some difference in valuation.

But, on the other hand, there is a distinct difference, else there was no need at all for Satanism. But this difference isn't a general phenomena in Satanism since not all satanists are satanists for the same “reason”. Which explains why we are a culture of internal conflict and, contrary to what some think, completely incapable of accomplishing common satanic goals. We are a fractured group and only cooperate when it serves the Self or the goals of the Self. We don't shy away from damaging those in our own subculture when we either see it as needed or find it an amusing pastime. Satanic cooperation is a very fragile phenomena and one never knows for what reason anyone else is in it. Those that smile at you now can easily stab you in the back tomorrow.

In that, we are also not too different from the general populace minus the fact that we don't shy away from admitting it.

We're about the only subculture considering only ourselves and those three there being part of it and all those others are simply deluding themselves. The entertaining part is that about all the others have the same opinion. We deluding ourselves? Not at all, it's actually them doing it.

D.

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#53002 - 04/15/11 03:59 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Dimitri]
Jim Lewis Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway

The Zebu,

Though I take your comments seriously, your remark about "eating babies" reminds me of an entertaining class in which one of my students asked a pair of Satanist speakers about whether they sacrificed babies. One of them, Shane Vedvik, said, "We love babies," at which point the other fellow, Kaiden Fox, immitating the voice of a TV advertiser, spoke up and said, "Babies! The other white meat!" It's one of those moments you never forget.

All the Best,

Jim

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#53003 - 04/15/11 04:04 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Dimitri]
Jim Lewis Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway
Khk,

Useful responses. I'm still thinking about the implications of your comments about children not being ready for what we might call the 'full' philosophy of Satanism.

All the Best,

Jim



Edited by Jim Lewis (04/15/11 04:19 PM)
Edit Reason: forgot to add "All the Best"

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#53004 - 04/15/11 04:17 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Dimitri]
Jim Lewis Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway

Dimitri & Caladrius,

While I have only met a dozen or so Satanists f2f, both in the U.S. and in Scandinavia, I have to say that most people willing to self-identify as Satanists have something about them that sets them apart. And, yes, of course I've met some of those immature a**holes who enjoy calling themselves Satanists. But I've found the majority to be uniquely interesting. It's part of why I study Satanists.

All the Best,

Jim

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#53021 - 04/16/11 01:45 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3114
That's because they probably told you in one way or another they were Satanists. From that point on you probably started in trying to find common grounds with the many of them, thus creating that sphere you find "uniquely interesting".
I'm quite sure you couldn't even pick me out of a group of people as being Satanist. Or, for that matter, other members here who have that black flame burning brightly untill we told you.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#53022 - 04/16/11 03:20 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Dimitri]
Jim Lewis Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway

Dimitri,

Well, of course you're right in the sense that I would not be able to pick a Satanist out of a crowd of non-Satanists. And it certainly is the case that one's preconceptions shape one's perceptiions. There's been plenty of social psychological research to support that.

As an academician, I've studied non-traditional religions/philosophies/spiritual paths for the better part of 30 years, which doesn't include the years of my own youthful 'spiritual quest.' In that time I've lived with Moonies and Hare Krishnas. I've danced around with Pagans and Sufis. And hung out with exotic religious groups that most people have never heard of. I have a baseline of life experience that few other people can claim. I'm not some kind of wet-behind-the-ears newspaper reporter who has never been outside of Peoria.

So when I say there's something unique about Satanists I've met, it means something.


All the Best,

Jim

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#53027 - 04/16/11 07:41 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Jim Lewis
I'm still thinking about the implications of your comments about children not being ready for what we might call the 'full' philosophy of Satanism.


This is the norm, AFAIK, in the Order of Nine Angles - that children can only become fully involved beyond a certain age when they are able to make a rational informed choice for themselves.

This is usually regarded as around the age of 16 - though some think aged 14 is fine, and others 18.

Until that time oftheir personal *initiation*, they are only dedicated, in an informal and non-binding way by their parents, to *the dark forces*/Satan/Satanism.

This stems from the belief, accepted by ONA parents, that children are not *ours* - but only loaned to us as parents; that we are only their guardians until such time as they can make their own decisions and informed choice.

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#53030 - 04/16/11 09:37 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: SinisterMoon]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
In regards to Jim's line of questioning as well as SinisterMoon's current choice of points raised.

Is Satanism, in part a philosophy, only because we have come so far away from Nature, and in this knowing, the philosophy itself is a working backward through abstractions to our innate simplicity? That the consciousness is being "used" as an observer to what we have become rather than the consciousness enjoying itself by bloating ego through displaying a complex mind at work? And that it will all appear as complex philosophy because there is much causal abstraction to work back through?

@SinisterMoon. I acknowledge your practical thought which I can hold as being a most likely workable actualisation, but would it not be seen in other numerous ways which could still be held as Satanic (I know you know but I'm just adding)? One being that no matter how old ones child, the necessity to defend ones own with deadly force is inexorable no matter what we may consciously decide? Am I to rethink and divide altruism from conscious decision making? If we are speaking ideals then I feel that the relationship between spirit and Nature is affirmed as soon as the being is out of the womb? And as our children are natural warriors insofar as the Satanist type is genetic i.e. high aggression and indomitable will, only being dampened in spirit by school teachers and other interfering Christianised moralists who would tell our children "don't hit back, tell an adult after you do nothing, because it does not matter who started it, you are going to suffer for self defence". A child is taught in the ways of Nature as soon as he interacts with other beings, this is inexorable, what is also present is the attempts to dampen his spirits by Christian society where the Satanic parent cannot give motivation to their child's freedom. I am not going to neglect the necessity for the not to harsh ordeals that children must pass through when interacting with one another i.e. fighting, learning respect and also subversion of causal forms as soon as possible.

Things don't always go to plan, for instance, one of my nephews when he was around 5, asked if we would be able to steal from the shop, quite innocently and of his own ingenuity, because the shop keeper was not looking, and for some reason this idea of his came about, I explained to him "it would be silly to do so right now, because we have money and there are cameras, if the camera records us taking sweets and not paying then the shop keeper will not let us in again because these sweets are his belongings and he likes money to swap for these sweets, so he can get things he wants". Then my nephew proceeded to ask for way too many things, so in effect I ended up getting robbed instead.

Anyway,

In affirming the above, would it not be out of place to question whether it is wise to assume that we can ever give full responsibility to our children at a certain age or otherwise suitable circumstance? Why? As to do so would only be a detachment from the immediacy of having continual responsibility over our children whether we chose to or not simply because Nature governs us all and only the safety of society relinquishes responsibility so that we may rest up or rather look elsewhere for involvements? Is then the issue of Satanist vs. "normal" folk an issue of abuse of recharge time? By this I point to peace, and peace being only an empty stage for will to power to enter and assert itself. If this is so, then responsibility over our children can only be constant, and yet forgettable by means of idealising our child's responsibility. Could it then be held that both parent and child are immediately responsible for one another with the scales tipping on who has primacy of responsibility as the accumulation of experience culminates for both? And with this being said, have I addressed points raised or distracted from?

In Satan's affirmation we are always that harsh shriek of birth as the skin burns on the cold hard earth. Of freedom, of growth; of mixing with the unknown, of that painful impurism, of mixing with the cold hard earth.
_________________________


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#53034 - 04/16/11 11:25 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Jim Lewis
So when I say there's something unique about Satanists I've met, it means something.


The major difference I appreciate in satanists is their willingness to share their views about everything, including that which society avoids or prefers to keep in the dark. Those I like most aren't too concerned about what is political correct or socially preferred and bluntly share their opinion. On those rare occasions I, in public, point at the cold reality behind their illusions, I am often met with shock, as if having exposed them, naked for all to see. Amongst satanists, there hardly is any commotion about such.

It is this openness and willingness I cherish most, and there are few subjects which are too taboo to even talk about. Anywhere else, I quickly see the very limitations of what is tolerated and often a refusal to do just that, leads quickly to a removal.

This is probably the most important reason satanists tend to “flock” together since this isn't provided elsewhere.

D.

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#53072 - 04/17/11 12:34 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: SinisterMoon]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
As Sinister Moon says - and I agree - some see 14 as an acceptable age - though that would depend on an individual basis.

Any group that has in anyway admitted being involved in indoctrinating/harming children has been vehemently disavowed in by ONA and the Temple of THEM; I cite the Order of Dark Earth, and to a lesser extent the Tempel ov Blood's admissions and promotions of its activities.

THEM has zero tolerance for such activities and those who engage in them - and in some cases, advocates below zero tolerance.

Note that the Temple of THEM does not advocate dedicating children to Satan - but due to its ceullular structure such may occur in an unofficial manner. But I stress again, any activity associated with indoctrinating, harming or hurting children has no part in the practices or philosophy of the Temple of THEM.

I also agree wholely with the last statement by SM. Note that even the earliest manuscripts by the ONA have maintained that children are not to be involved in Satanism - and pedophiles and self-indulgent miscreants are culled in ONA literature. It is a sad fact that the dynamism and worldly good taste of the ONA is often missed or ignored and used as a scapegoat to justify various evils. Whilst ONA promotes evils on terrible scales - I have always assumed that it meant this from the perspective that we are all adults here and can make our own choices - but children, are never to be involved. That is inarguable. To involve them shows a distinct and dangerous lack of insight, foresight, respect, decorum and is a highly selfish act I consider reprehensible in the case of crimes, destructive and misguided in the case of participation/indoctrination.

ISS,
RA

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#53076 - 04/17/11 03:41 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Khk]
Jim Lewis Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway

Khk,

I'd like to excerpt a bit of what you say above for a paper I'm currently writing.

Should I reference you as 'the' founder of the Temple of THEM, 'a' founder, or....?

All the Best,

Jim

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#53080 - 04/17/11 07:55 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Khk]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Khk
I also agree wholely with the last statement by SM.A


Yes, indeed, and I think it's worth repeating that "the belief, accepted by ONA parents, is that children are not *ours* - but only loaned to us as parents; that we are only their guardians until such time as they can make their own decisions and informed choice."

Since this is an aural tradition, passed on from ONA initiate to ONA initiate, perhaps someone should write something more about this?

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#53082 - 04/17/11 10:04 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Co-founder, Jim. There is another whom co-founded the Temple with me; a sorceress known to us as Sath.


Edited by Khk (04/17/11 10:06 PM)

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#53083 - 04/17/11 10:18 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Khk]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I have observed that Satanist always seem to be communicators with their children instead of commanding them to be their ideals. This I think is because Satanist have had to affirm their own values and are not indoctrinated themselves and hence do not work blindly to ingrain what is absolutely "good" or "bad" without explanation but rather we explain things on the child's level, more work for us but we know it's not an option to be lazy. Children are smarter than many people realise and absorb information much faster than us adults, I have observed that Satanist know this.

Everything seems to come down to protecting our children and maybe this is why some of us get interested in Satanism because the hypocrite society we were raised in was what made us devalue everything and value what was natural to us? Regardless, we can see the questions on the survey being numerous and yet there seems to be not enough of the right questions insofar as there being so many political questions which a Satanist cares little about, and not enough psychological questions surveying adversarial or predatory propensity. I would think some questions like "what do you do when witnessing somebody beings mugged" or "what do you look at when observing somebodies gait" or "what do you process in your mind when approaching a group of people", There ought to be predatory and combat related questions with spaces for examples to be given. If the census was anonymous you'd get a much more honest survey from people often outside the law who won't be willing to put their name beside incriminating accounts, no matter how minor some of us just won't chance disclosing our often extreme behaviours publicly.

I personally wouldn't hold Satanism as anything important that will be in the next generation as there will be different circumstances and our ways will seem lame to future adults, we'll need to progress beyond things like Satanism and make something more scientific and adaptable, as the mundane is all there is to understand, the mundane being of the earth, there is only he immediate surroundings to adapt to, nobody is sinister and nobody is mundane, there are no Satanist, only the shrieking idiocy of apes I would smash to pieces—the intelligent people on this forum are not the people I encounter in my environment.

Having a lot of use for Satanism, I am not "a Satanist", I am nihilistic and indifference is always in the place of where something sinister might be seen to belong. I have always been one against all and do not get passionate about conflict, it is mundane to me and hold no meaning or excitement. Let me state emphatically that I affirm life, insofar as "life" having inexplicable positive "value". Why? simply, intrinsic affirmation. We see society's perceptual derailment of what is actually inexorable passive nihilism in their own lives. In we see that simply because I may epistemologically distrust most of what is openly visible of societal stratifications and social stratagems—I still highly value the human being—it is not man himself that I loathe, but that which he does unto himself. Nihilism is dimly understood and yet inexplicably felt and Satanism is something which is both actively nihilistic which enables us to affirm values in the primacy of our nature. There is always a lacking as compared to the promising plentitude that comes with the contentment of the the established, more intellectually plausible. I hear you say "Satanism is not nihilistic!" as to immediately make connotations with passive nihilism, which is not the same thing as active nihilism at all. If this cannot be understood then I'm on the wrong board.

I don't feel that any ability to intellectualise the ever growing and developing essence of our kind cannot ever live up to the reality of it.

There are only people. Satan is a religious word after all, God is dead and we are his murderers, I cannot affirm anything to be of worth being a Satanist, for or against what? as everything holy is already dead, everyone lacking will is already dead, only nature need be affirmed to breathe life into what is around us. What care do we for an unsalvageable backstabbing society. The nihilism in my life does not simply deny inherent value on a groundless basis but affirms the inherency of immediate reality—nature, therefore active nihilism is grounded in ultimate reality, my own necessity, survival. The necessity of the earth itself is adaptation, logical preferences, logical indifference to annihilate threat, affirmation of repulsions which are ingrained by nature, desire to affirm aesthetic beauty in life.

Who gives a fuck about society... I'll wreck those who would dare to impose on me, always have, with indifference, I'm not sinister at all but unconcerned with the morose predictability of the foolish, ironic yes but it's all wearing thin. Who needs ideology for one against all survival against the eternal recurrence? The horror of the warriors life is written through history, there is no need to formalise things.
_________________________


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#53087 - 04/18/11 03:33 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Hegesias]
Jim Lewis Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway

Khk,

Thanx!

All the Best,

Jim

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#53088 - 04/18/11 03:36 AM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Hegesias]
Jim Lewis Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Tromsø, Norway

Hebesias,

I've been considering a follow up questionnaire that would ask different sorts of questions. Most of the quoted (and mostly quite interesting) material in the latter half of "Who Serves Satan?" came from a couple dozen respondents who had indicated a willingness to provide more information.

All the Best,

Jim

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#87265 - 05/08/14 01:44 PM Re: New Questionnaire Promo Video! [Re: Jim Lewis]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6667
Loc: Virginia
So what was the outcome of this survey?

I did a search and haven't been able to locate any new publications from James Lewis since 2011.

Was the data used for a conference or were the contributors used for his own ends?

Anyone?


Edited by SIN3 (05/08/14 01:45 PM)
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