Page 2 of 5 <12345>
Topic Options
#5066 - 03/09/08 04:45 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
I don't think you really get it.


I think you misread my article or missed the point. It could be about translation, but I think it is more about education? I write with a more sociological view on Satanism and religion.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Here it's more personal.
The thoughts, ideals, personal perspective, and the personal choices and actions.


And? You can still identify many kinds of Satanism, and the individual satanist have to choose his kind of Satanism, if he wants to be able to *explain* what his beliefs are about. You need to have a definition of Satanism if you want to say anything sensible about Satanism. And yes, I know about American Satanism. In sociological terms it is often viewed as a part of the New Age or a part of the Human Potential Movement. Satanists are very individualistic and mix different ideas. I know that. I also know that many satanists are not able to explain there beliefs or to explain how they differentiate between the kind of Satanism they believe in and the other kinds of Satanism they do not believe in. Hell, many would not even be able to explain the real difference between Satanism and Christianity without just quoting Lavey on the issue.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Yes, to you the ONA may not be "normal or acceptable", but it was a new creative ideal thought out system. Yes, people did go to jail for carrying out their actions based on its writing.


Did they? I didn't think any members ever did act out on there texts. I have no issue with it being acceptable, wrong or not. But I have an issue whit the "friends" I choose. I do not want to take the blame for others just because they claim to be satanists.

- Amina

Top
#5067 - 03/09/08 05:04 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Having your name and address public is stupid.
You have been lucky.


No I have not. I am not the only danish satanist who have done so for more then ten years and no one have ever had any harm come to them. A few have had to step back a bit because of work, but no one have had any real trouble. I Denmark Satanism is not viewed as as dangerous as it is in the US because we live in a less religious country. We never had a satanic panic, we never had a fundamentalistic Christian president and we do not have strong belief. Most dances are Christian but they never go to church, never read the bible, they don't believe in hell or the devil and many view Christianity more as a philosophy then as a religion. I have been a public satanist for ten years. I have two kids and all the other parents know that I am a satanist but I am still on the school board and my kinds have a lot of friends how visits them. People in Denmark are not insane like some of the religious people are in the US.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Its not a big deal being in the media, Its more important who you are when the cameras are off.


You are right, but the public image of Satanism also count. You had LaVey, Aquino and others in the old days. In Denmark we only had one danish TV channel in the late 80'ties today we have a few more, but just a few. When you do an interview in the danish media it is usually distributed to the whole countries. In a small country you are actually able to change the way the media present Satanism. It is not the same as it is in the US, but even in the US LaVey and others where able to influence the media.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Satanism, its various groups, and its branches have philosophy differences. I think you need to be learn that.


Do I? Then I think you missed my point. My point was that you need to talk about Satanism in the plural. The is not one Satanism but many satanisms.

- Amina

Top
#5068 - 03/09/08 05:20 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
So tell me how you aren't trying to define satanism, when you are trying to define satanism everywhere in your essay again?


For Satans sake, how can this be so hard to understand!?

I am talking about different *ways* of defining Satanism and how some definitions work better then others. Like duh!. If you think one of my discarded definitions like "everything is Satanism" works for you, then for Satans sake use it. I would be a bit surprised if you actually believed that one of the discarded definitions where the way to go, but who knows. One could define Satanism as anything, but one has to be at total moron not to be able to see that some definitions make more sense then others. I also say that there are many kinds of Satanism and that they should be viewed as separate or different KINDS of Satanism. I say a few words on some of the differences, but I do not explain any of them in depth. So I talk about ways of defining Satanism without delivering a definition of one "true" kind of Satanism.

Just for kicks: how do you define Satanism and do you view Satanism a differentiated or not? Come on - I am sure you have some excellent ideas about how academics and satanists should understand the phenomena when trying to explain it to themselves ands others.

- Amina

Top
#5069 - 03/09/08 05:35 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
 Originally Posted By: Amina
For Satans sake, then for Satans sake

Anyone who says for Satan's sake is clearly a child desperately in need of attention... This is why you enjoy exposing yourself so...

I have also noticed that the ones here that feel the need to have Satanism defined or explained, and those that talk so much about it is done mostly by the nons in our group... I always thought this due the the fact that they were afraid they might be Satanist...

Perhaps you are a Wiccian just confused...

Nothing to see here, move along...

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

Top
#5070 - 03/09/08 05:36 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Sordid Archetype]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Sordid Archetype
I'm glad you are the expert on such matters here. Without your elucidate words I'd be entirely lost.


If you think my way of using logic is wrong then please enlighten me. Tell me how my discarded definitions would make more sense then the definitions I *do* use. And while you are ad it - please tell me how you define Satanism in your own life and how you would define Satanism if you had to write a school paper or a book for non satanists.

 Originally Posted By: Sordid Archetype
In other words you are the type of individual to believe that "unless you believe in my beliefs you are simply wrong?"


No I am not. I am the sort of person who would change my own belifes if I found a more fitting one. I am the sort of person who always choos the belife that I see as the most sensible one at a given time.

I am a candidate student of the history of religion so I am well aware that different people believe in different things and I accept and respect that. But I do not view all faiths as equally sane or equally fitting for myself in my own life. If I did I would be a Muslim on Mondays, a Wiccan on Thursdays and in the weekends I would be going around looking for UFOs to take me home to Alpha Centauri!

 Originally Posted By: Sordid Archetype
Your topic subject is "One Satanism or more Satanisms," yet your content suggests something more along the lines of "How a real satanist should define Satanism."

What is it exactly you are trying to accomplish with this thread?


No, buy I point out that some definitions are more usable then others. I also point out that many don't even think about how to define Satanism. I would like people to think about how *they* view Satanism and if they take there own belief serious enough to think about it. I also want to point out that Satanism is a differentiated phenomena and that you have to talk about more then one Satanism.

- Amina

Top
#5097 - 03/09/08 12:45 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Sordid Archetype]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Amina,

I don't know what you know about ONA, but I would hazard to guess I know quite a bit more about ONA than you do. As for what ONA has accomplished, I would recommend our ONA thread:

http://www.the600club.com/dir/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/4446#Post4446

In real terms, the ONA did, in fact, accomplish it's goal. The ONA sought usher in The New Aeon. The rise of the right wing in European politics cannot denied. Even the most liberal of European govts have tightened immigration and placed new requirements on would-be immigrants. This is to say nothing of street level grassroots activism by Nationalists.

The ONA has accomplished more than any single LHP organization without ever getting any mainstream headlines like the CoS. Every clown in goth makeup knows about the CoS. Only a few even know the ONA name, fewer still understand their methods, and only a very few have been involved with them. Involvement with the CoS requires little more than a money order for $200.

Perhaps the key to the ONA's success has been the anonymity of it's members.

It is great that you can operate in the open as a satanist. For me, I will remain anonymous - thank you very much!
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

Top
#5105 - 03/09/08 02:23 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Fist]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
I am sorry about hurting the feelings of ONA supporters. On the other hand I know that they would be more then willing to kill me if they added action to talking. So what can I say. It looks like killing people is OK by expressing criticism is a big NO NO even with people who worship evil and think killing is alright. Maybe next time I should just call on our Dark Lord first and ask him to kill off everyone who disagrees with me (joke).

 Originally Posted By: Fist
I don't know what you know about ONA


Most of what I know about the ONA is from reading ten years ago when I first went on the internet. At that time the ONA was more or less a dead organization. The ONA is mentioned in books, but your efforts must have been very secret. The ONA is only mentioned in passig as a very small organization. Today the ONA has some online members, buy I would be very surprised to learn that the ONA is a real organization offline. The last of the founders went and became a fundamentalistic muslim. Call it "lesser magic" or what ever you want - I don't buy it. Do the members meet in real life to sacrifice other members to the dark lord? I guess not. If they do, then please keep on the good work.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
The rise of the right wing in European politics cannot denied. Even the most liberal of European govts have tightened immigration and placed new requirements on would-be immigrants. This is to say nothing of street level grassroots activism by Nationalists.


You are yet to prove the ONAs influence on this. I would not be surprised if the ONA put a lot of effort into this, but I think you would have a hard time proving that the ONAs afford did the trick. As far as I know you are anti-semitic and very anti-Jewish. Most of the left wing organizations in Europe are focused on Muslims, not on Jews. Most would be happy to kill off Muslim Matt. I think your talk about the efforts of the ONA sound like a backward conspiracy theory whit the ONA as the mastermind. Sociologists and others have explanations about why we see right wing groups in Europe. Again, your efforts have been so secret that no on have detected them. Im sorry, but I need more then this. Do the ONA even have a spokesperson these days or is this secret too?

- Amina

Top
#5107 - 03/09/08 03:21 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Oh, brother... *slaps forehead*

Ok, since you clearly did not follow the link I provided, I will give you a cut-and-paste of my response:

"ONA was one of my first loves travelling down the LHP. Of course, to most of you here, that should come as no surprise.

It is generally considered that Anton Long is the pen name of David Myatt. And yes, Myatt seems to have had a conversion to Islam. This can be taken in one of two ways. The general consensus is that Myatt had some sort of catharsis during one of his prison sentences, and just went from one extremist organization to another. The other way to take this is the way birdstrike does. You would have to understand the particular sort of politically correct insanity being practiced in UK for this to make any sense. But, as a Muslim he would have more public freedom than he would as a Satanist or White Supremacist. In addition, his public support of Jihad would be consistent with a desire to enter the time of RAHOWA.

The ONA was a very real organization. A bit of googling would go a long way to understanding the organization. It is rooted in randomized European paganism, Odinism, Might is Right doctrine and the white supremacist overtones that all of that usually carries with it. Myatt was a foundational figure in modern British Nationalism and in Combat 18.

ONA was founded on warrior ethos, a capacity for stoicism and military style self discipline. An initiate was suppose to be able to endure suffering and be the better for it. Isolation and deprivation were training techniques that were employed in the traditional military fashion.

ONA has out lived it's function as a public organization. However, it's training and lessons still live on as do it's members. You will find almost no one who will admit ever to have been an ONA member. It is as if the organization never existed. However, you will find a more than a few like minds and fellow travellers in the current ranks of the BNP (but you didn't hear that from me!).

I am not aware that Combat 18 is still operational in the UK but it does live on (in name anyway) within the US.

If nothing else, you cannot discount ONA's methods. Nothing succeeds like success, and unless you haven't been watching the news lately, I am pretty sure that we are in the early days of The New Aeon."

If there is ANYTHING in the above that you do not understand then Google it. This is too easy.

It seems to me that you have a preconceived vision of ONA and no amount of facts will change your mind.

And just so we are clear, Satanism is based on the doctrine of Might is Right. Modern Satanism is so based in this doctrine that many have accused LaVey of plagiarism. The fact of the matter is that it is indeed ok to kill. If we accept the Satanic premise that man is an an animal like any other, and we accept the premise that it is ok to kill animals for our own survival, then we must accept the premise that it is ok to kill man. Does this logic elude you?

What is most annoying to 'us' is that 'Satanism' is filled with such a random array of assorted Wiccans, Humanists, Progressives and other RHP White Lighters who simply have an affinity for black clothes. A black sheep is still a sheep.

We are constantly bombarded by this RHP nonsense that continually seeks to redefine Satanism. Satanists are born - not made. If you find yourself doing all sorts of mental contortions to make Satanism fit your instincts, then the chance are quite good that you are not a Satanist. If you cannot instinctively see the utility in killing some people who really deserve it than I cannot help you.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

Top
#5114 - 03/09/08 04:35 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Fist]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Fist
The ONA was a very real organization. A bit of googling would go a long way to understanding the organization.


As I said, I read about the org. ten years ago. Unless it has change its philosophy and added a lot of new texts my reading ten years ago should still be valid.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
ONA has out lived it's function as a public organization. However, it's training and lessons still live on as do it's members. You will find almost no one who will admit ever to have been an ONA member. It is as if the organization never existed.[quote=Fist]

Yes, I have that feeling too...it is as if the organization never existed, and as if it was already dead ten year ago. I have talked to people who supported the ONA and who had read ONA texts online and sometimes even made there own ONA webpages, but I have never seen evidence of a real organization. My quotation points to a small scale organization, but I have seen no proof of anything else. In most satanic and New Age organizations most followers only follow an organization for a very short time (weeks or months), and in unorganized online organizations people are often very superficial. I don't really see how that can amount to ritual killings and fun stuff like that.

[quote=Fist]The fact of the matter is that it is indeed ok to kill. If we accept the Satanic premise that man is an an animal like any other, and we accept the premise that it is ok to kill animals for our own survival, then we must accept the premise that it is ok to kill man. Does this logic elude you?


I do not believe in an objective moral, so how could I see killing as good or bad?

You are trying to get this to sound like the way of nature. Yes, you need to defend yourself and sometimes man has to go to war. But what the ONA speaks about is not defending oneself but trying to "help evolution on the way". That is not survival but Social Darwinism and that is bull. Social Darwinism is an unscientific misunderstanding of Darwin and evolution theory. It is as absurd as when Christians try to sell of Intelligent Design as science. ”it is ok to kill animals for our own survival, then we must accept the premise that it is ok to kill man” what kind of argument is that?. It dosn't make any sense. Yes, people fight and sometimes you need to remove or kill people. I know that. I will even confess that I would have many lives on my consciousness if I could kill people just by thinking about it. Societies also go to way and some kill of criminals. Nothing new, nothing specific satanic about that. Even the Bible talks about killing in way and peace. But no, we do not ”need” to kill people to help on evolution like the ONA and all the other Nazis think. Jews, black, homosexuals and other ”non-Aryans” are not belonging to what you could call ”lower races” in any scientific way. The race issue is bull. Social Darwinism and race theories are just another kind of ”pipedreams” or myths.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
If you cannot instinctively see the utility in killing some people who really deserve it than I cannot help you.


No problem, but I don't think we have the same definition of ”deserving” or "for the need of survival".

- Amina

Top
#5116 - 03/09/08 05:00 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Again, you tip your hand to show your white light credentials.

Might is right. Do you disagree?

Should we save drug addicts or simply allow them to overdose and die in the street?

Should we execute child molesters?

If a person steals from me do I have the right to kill them?

I wait with baited breath for the next installment of this nonsense....
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

Top
#5118 - 03/09/08 05:16 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Fist]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Fist
Might is right. Do you disagree?


No, he who has the power gets what he want. That is just facts. All your other statements about who you want to weed out is just wishfull thinking. You guys should be happy that the people with power don weed you out! I live in the would of sanity, rationality and science, not in the would of wishfull thinking and pseudoscience. I don't blame God, Satan or "the mud people" for my own shortcommings.

Denmark is more socialistic then the US. You can call us soft. But we have less crime, less poor people and less social problems then the UK and the US.

- Amina

Top
#5127 - 03/09/08 07:17 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Ok, I thought I made this simple. All I asked for were simple answers to simple questions. It seems to me that you are avoiding an answer lest you show your Wiccan roots. To wit:


Might is right. Do you disagree?

 Quote:
No, he who has the power gets what he want.


?

Ah, ok, is that a yes or a no?

Anyway...

Let's try this again:

Should we save drug addicts or simply allow them to overdose and die in the street?

Should we execute child molesters?

If a person steals from me do I have the right to kill them?

Simple questions really! A 'yes' or 'no' will do.

 Quote:
Denmark is more socialistic then the US. You can call us soft. But we have less crime, less poor people and less social problems then the UK and the US.


In the US, most of the crime is perpetrated by certain minorities - mostly blacks and hispanics. I think if you look you will find that most of serious crime in Denmark (like rape and murder) are perpetrated by Muslim immigrants. Do you disagree? And what benefit does Denmark get from hosting these people? Is there are reason you allow them to suckle at the teat of your Welfare State?
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

Top
#5150 - 03/09/08 09:53 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Sordid Archetype Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Long Island, NY
 Originally Posted By: Amina
You can call us soft. But we have less crime, less poor people and less social problems then the UK and the US.

You also have less of a population. Try that again once your country has picked up a few extra millions more.
_________________________
The only god I believe in is me. . .

Top
#5152 - 03/09/08 10:41 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Jeseth Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 91
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: Amina
8. Conclusion
If a term includes everything, it covers nothing. To use a particular term, the term must be defined in such a way that correct and incorrect use can be determined. This means that the term must be reasonably clearly defined, and if the term has multiple meanings, each meaning must be defined independently of the other meanings. Using definitions such as “anyone that calls himself a Satanist is a Satanist” or “anything called Satanism is Satanism” are not valid definitions, because they are both unclear, self-contradictory and without content.

If an individual wants to meaningfully declare himself or herself a Satanist, the person must decide on a specific meaning of the term. It is possible for the Satanist to respect other uses, but he or she can hardly consider other definitions to be equals or included in his or her own definition, even if they use the same denomination.

I agree with your conclusion to an extent, but I don't believe an individual can "decide on a specific meaning" for Satanism. The world already has a meaning.

Anton LaVey gave us the modern definition for Satanism. You are either a Satanist - by that definition - or you're not. If you still choose to refer to yourself as a Satanist, no one will stop you from doing it, but it doesn't change the fact that you're not a Satanist.

I'll rarely enter into voluntary debates with people who use the term wrongly, though. Why waste the time and energy?
_________________________
"Life is of no value but as it brings us gratifications."
— Thomas Jefferson

Top
#5156 - 03/09/08 11:08 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Sordid Archetype Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Long Island, NY
 Quote:
If you think my way of using logic is wrong then please enlighten me. Tell me how my discarded definitions would make more sense then the definitions I *do* use.

Perhaps there is a barrier of proper linguistics here, because I never spoke against your use of "logic." What I did speak against however was your rather forceful presumptuousness. Maybe you don't mean to, but you come off with a bit of an overbearing attitude. The way in which your posts are written seem to imply that you simply are here to correct all of those far less than you. In an environment where many will consider themselves "gods" I can't possibly see the end results being very well off.
Unlike the tone of your post, I will not sit here and bother to tell you how to use your own definitions. Do with them as you wish.

Since you are quite interested in the appropriate use of words, I would like you to consider this however: Words themselves are a man-made method of communicating abstract concepts to other men. In order for this to work, both men involved in a discussion must have the same understanding for the words being used in order for any proper transfer of concept to be performed. If one man thinks that "red" is a colour, while another thinks "red" is an animal, there will be a great difficulty in one understanding anything the other is speaking about. Likewise, if 100 people believe Satanism to be one thing, and 1 person believes it to be something entirely different, then chances are the 1 person is wrong. Not because what everyone else thinks must be right, but because when you are trying to use a medium that is supposed to transfer ideas among a mass of people and the mass of people have all agreed upon how they will transfer their ideas, simply using a conflicting definition base would completely hinder the purpose of the medium in the first place (which is communicating with those others who have already established a functional base).


 Quote:
please tell me how you define satanism in your own life and how you would define satanism if you had to write a school paper or a book for non satanists


why would I have to write any material for anyone, about Satanism or anything else? The truth of the matter is that I do not HAVE to do anything that I do not wish. Generally, I do not speak of Satanism to those who are not. The reason being, why should I? What am I gaining from it? I really only perform actions because I am motivated to do so, and if I am not gaining anything from it, then my motivation is not likely to be strong.

However, for sake of argument, you wish me to define MY Satanism for you? I believe that Satanism is not something that you can necessarily put a curbed definition or summary to. There are volumes of texts that speak about the various ins-and-outs of many "satanic" philosophies that compose Satanism's core. I'm sure you don't want anything so specific however, just enough for one to make a rather general distinction between other "words", so I will explain it as this:

To ME, Satanism is a religious structure that an individual may elicit to aid himself in his transcendental quest of personal excellence. It utilizes esoteric means to accomplish personal goals, whether or not the ideologies are accepted by the "collective virtue," and maintains the precepts of a Darwinist view (the strong shall inherit...) The strongest keystone for Satanism is that an individual may become the construct for his own moral and creative base, and hence "become a god" in doing so.


This, of course, is in no way comprehensive, but I'm sure it will be enough for now.
_________________________
The only god I believe in is me. . .

Top
Page 2 of 5 <12345>


Moderator:  Woland, TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.031 seconds of which 0.002 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.