Page 4 of 5 <12345>
Topic Options
#5557 - 03/13/08 04:45 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: DistroyA]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: DistroyA
I don't mean any disrespect or anything, but is this relevant to the topic? Because to me, it just seems like a penis measuring contest there. It doesn't really matter how big a country is to be honest.


If you look at earlier posts in this topic some of the discussion is about how normal people view Satanism, what satanists can do to change it, if one needs to care about public opinion and if I should be scared to pieces or feel like a dumbass because I'm public and try to do something. This discussion was started mainly because I said that it is stupid to align yourself with groups within Satanism who promotes human sacrifice (and I could add: racial war and/or child abuse), unless you actually support these ideas. In Denmark it would be really stupid, but I am getting almost convinced that it dos not make any difference in the US, and that most don't mind the connection anyway.

- Amina

Top
#5668 - 03/14/08 08:40 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Basically, you live in a small country, thats all nice and sweet.
I get it, big fish, little pond.

"I went on the internet when LaVey was still alive. Maybe this forum is very different from any other satanic forum - who knows. I would be very surprised if this was the case. The only real surprise I have had has to do with the number of Nazis and racists you have on the board. Congratulations - you actually surprised me with those."

Oh, okay, I went online before the internet was main stream, before al gore invented it, with the bullinboards systems back in 1986/87. That was back when I worked for the government.

How can you say maybe this forum is different than the other satanist sites. You previously explained how you interviewed thousand of satanist, yet you dont know how this site compares with any other satanic site????

This forum is different, and has been around for years.
We dont have any more nazis or racists than other places. Truthfully, most of us hate all stupid people equally. We dont hide our dislikes for idiots, hell I like to bar-b que them.

"With that in mind, it is paranoid to accuse me of making and posting the text as an attack on you or any of the users on this board."

Once again, I didn't attack you. Ask anyone here, if I was going to attack you, believe me, you would know.

"I also see oldtimers complaining about too many bitch fights."

You have to be kidding me, you are here a week and you think you know who the oldtimers are?? You have no clue.

"The text was not written with you in mind, and if some of the points is old hat, then those points are aimed at other people to whom they are new."

My point was that some of your non satanic sourse are wrong, and that people who are not satanic writing on satanic issues will cloud the issue with their personal bias.....

You know what, I dont care anymore. You dont get it.
Fuck the language difference, the translataion problems, the fact that you just posted that here without even looking over the site.

I dont care, I dont have time to talk to you and play this game anymore.

whatever, next..............

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#5716 - 03/15/08 09:56 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
How can you say maybe this forum is different than the other satanist sites. You previously explained how you interviewed thousand of satanist, yet you dont know how this site compares with any other satanic site????


I was more or less being sarcastic, more or less trying to work with the possibility that you where right about this board being so different. And no, I have not interviewed satanists. I explained that I had talked to a lot of different satanists over the years. I joined the CoS before LaVey died and used to hang out at Lestats place before The600Club and the official Church of Satan site was made. I left the CoS a few years later at the same time as The600Club was made and others left the CoS too.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
You have to be kidding me, you are here a week and you think you know who the oldtimers are?? You have no clue.


I am able to see when they registered and how many posts they have posted to the board. Right?

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
My point was that some of your non satanic sourse are wrong, and that people who are not satanic writing on satanic issues will cloud the issue with their personal bias.....


I DO have a personal bias. My bias is to view the Satanism of satanists who have given thought to there Satanism as more serious then the Satanism of confused teens who found Satanism yesterday, and who think they are masters of Satanism because they saw "The Omen" two times last week. I also view the Satanism of people who are able to integrate there real life and there satanic online life as more serious then people who only ascribe to Satanism when no one can make them stick up to there beliefs or point out that they say one think but act in a totally different way in real life. I am not saying that satanists should be public, but I am tiered of 13 year old kids who talk about "killing all the Christians" without being able to defend themselves against the kid next door, and without having the gots to tell his mother that they don't want to go to church this Sunday. And yes, i am also tiered of racists or theists who talk about racial war or human sacrifice online but have Jewish or Christian friends and are unable to take up a knife and kill another human being or even a rabbit for dinner. I am very much against violence when it is used without reason, but I am almost more against people who lie to themselves and others by setting standards without being able to act accordingly. They are not "evil satanists", they are just silly kids who try to pose as big bad boys.

Another thing about bias: Someone called me an Wiccan and you say that I am not a satanist, and I more or less get the feeling that you think I would never be one. I have been a satanist for 15 years or so, and I find it a bit amusing that you are willing to view Satanism as differentiated and plural, but that this does not include me. Very, very amusing.

You don't want to "play" anymore so I am not going to ask for your definition of Satanism or how your definition can include more or less anyone who call themselves satanists but exclude me. I will also refrain from pointing to the fact that I am rater sure that you don't know much about my beliefs, if I am theistic or atheistic, an occultism or a rationalist. But I *will* put it down as more or less proving at least one of my points: Every satanist has his or her personal definition of what Satanism include and what it exclude.

- Amina

Top
#5732 - 03/15/08 05:24 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"I joined the CoS before LaVey died and used to hang out at Lestats place"

That explains everything.

"you say that I am not a satanist"

Nope, never said that. Go reread things.

"you don't know much about my beliefs"

I dont care about your beliefs, but you seems to be ab atheistic rationalist with wiccan tendencies.

Morg

Whatever, I was bored at wwork....
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#5740 - 03/15/08 08:01 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Morgan]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
I am able to see when they registered and how many posts they have posted to the board. Right?


This version of the forum has only been around for about the last year.

Previous versions of the forum go back years and years so no you are not right.

Otherthan that I'm keeping out of this particular discussion.

ZephyrGirl
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


Top
#5743 - 03/15/08 08:31 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Mercury_Templar Offline
93 93/93
member


Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Cabarita, Vic, Australia
This is true - I think I have been a member for about seven or eight years.

M.'.T.'.
_________________________
ATEH
MALKUTH
VE-GEBURAH
VE-GEDULAH
LE-OLAM
AMEN

Top
#5762 - 03/16/08 03:52 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
I dont care about your beliefs, but you seems to be ab atheistic rationalist with wiccan tendencies.


I do not know much about the Wicca, but as far as I know they are theistic, they are very much into magic, they are very spiritual, they are religious, they believe in an objective morality and they think they are part of a very old religion. This is more or less the opposite of rationalistic, atheistic, LaVeyan Satanism. Byt yes, Wicca and the CoS share one thing: they try to deal with the public, and claim to support law and order.

And yes, of cause - I am only able to see who joined on the latest version of the board, not the original board or any other versions. That is true.

- Amina

Top
#5806 - 03/17/08 09:01 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
This thread has drug on four pages and has yielded a lot of heat and little light. Remember, this board is used by many students of the LHP and all of these threads should be considered to be at least somewhat instructional.

Amina,

The problem 'we' are having is that you seem to be trying to redefine Satanism to be whatever you want it to be. It is 'our' assertion that you are left-liberal white lighter with an affinity for the Satanic aesthetic. In and of it's self, that is fine. However, please do not call it Satanism.

But, in the interest of clearing the air could you please list three personal beliefs that you consider Satanic?

Example:

1. The needs, wants, and desires of the individual trump those of the collective.

2. If someone wrongs me I have the right to return the favor ten fold to include killing them (Lex Talionis).

3. Stupid people should be allowed to die. Drug overdoses and suicides should be allowed to run their natural course.

These are just a few mine....
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

Top
#5832 - 03/17/08 05:30 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
cpboeg Offline
lurker


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 1
I find everything you write quite absurd. First and foremost, SATAN does not obide the law and does not wish for acceptance from the crowd.

satan the accuser and opposer, the devil the destroyer, fan/fianndin the enemy, etc, DO NOT cooperate, compromise or accept terms laid upon them from people. That is christian behaviour, the "flock mentality" you laveyan people are so fond of hating, yet so good at using.

I am interested, although i am aware that this is laveyan ground, how you legitimize your use of the word "Satanism", when your definition clarifies beyond doubt that you do not consider the word "satan"s meaning in your definition, do not believe in any form of entity which you would call satan, do not idolize aforesaid entities attributes and do not attempt to evolve in the direction of the entity.

Top
#5838 - 03/17/08 08:11 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: cpboeg]
97and107 Offline
member


Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 277
Loc: New Mexico
 Originally Posted By: cpboeg
I find everything you write quite absurd. First and foremost, SATAN does not obide the law and does not wish for acceptance from the crowd.

satan the accuser and opposer, the devil the destroyer, fan/fianndin the enemy, etc, DO NOT cooperate, compromise or accept terms laid upon them from people. That is christian behaviour, the "flock mentality" you laveyan people are so fond of hating, yet so good at using.

I am interested, although i am aware that this is laveyan ground, how you legitimize your use of the word "satanism", when your definition clarifies beyond doubt that you do not consider the word "satan"s meaning in your definition, do not believe in any form of entity which you would call satan, do not idolize aforesaid entities attributes and do not attempt to evolve in the direction of the entity.


Agreed, with one slight exception, Satanists can a do cooperate with each other and can accept "orders" just as well as the next person to further their goals, we are not wild animals...only in bed I hope and in the best natural sense of survival of the fittest...

But yeah CoS can go fuck off and die for all I care, I really do not give a shit about them or their flunkies...pretty pathetic actually. Though I do understand the need for belonging, it's only human as we are societal animals. Still, if you can't be a loner why be a Satanist? Absolutely the worst position you cna put yourself in if you need people so badly you want to fork out a hundred dollars for a membership to some useless club with bad philosophy....lol

Top
#5995 - 03/20/08 12:29 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Fist]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Fist
The problem 'we' are having is that you seem to be trying to redefine Satanism to be whatever you want it to be.


As far as I can see you are not a spokesperson of this community but probably one of the local loons. This will be my last replay to you.

No, I don't think "you" (plural) are having a problem with this. As far as I can see the users of this board are already using the word Satanism in a lot of very different ways. I also think most users would agree that you are able to find many different kinds of groups who claim to be satanic. I said something "mean" abut ONA and that is what is pissing you off. Fact is: anyone can use the word any way they want to - but I am happy to see that you are agreeing to at least a fem points in my text: some definitions are better then others, and often "different kinds of Satanism" don't have much in common.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
But, in the interest of clearing the air could you please list three personal beliefs that you consider Satanic?


I think any definition of Satanism has to include some sort of explanation of the connection to Satan. My explanation has to do with some of the values traditionally connected to Satan like freedom, mans animal nature and instincts, the materialistic world, rebellion against authorities, individualism, the seven deadly sins, anti-religion, anti-spirituality and so on.

My personal definition of Satanism also include Atheism and rationalism as more or less the same thing, but I am not able to point to may specific satanic does and dont's and I will explain why by commenting on yours:

 Originally Posted By: Fist
1. The needs, wants, and desires of the individual trump those of the collective.


Yes and no. I view my needs, wants and desires as more impotent then the collective, but I do not view other peoples needs, wants and desires as somehow holy. If you joined Osama Bin Laden and wanted to blow up my neighborhood I would not view your personal desire as acceptable, just because you saw it as such. I believe in individualism as an value, but I am also aware that interest collide.

The collective aka. society is a group of individuals with more or less similar values who work together and who are willing to exchange some of there freedom for safety, pluming, postal service, renovation, laws insuring private property, health care, education and so on. When people act against society, society will act back and deal with transgression as criminal act, unmoral acts or terrorism.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
2. If someone wrongs me I have the right to return the favor ten fold to include killing them (Lex Talionis).


Speaking about ”rights” only make sense if you think some sort of god is keeping an score, or if you are trying to convince other people that you have the law or morality on your side. As I said, I am an ateist. I don't believe in a god given or objective morality. I view morality as relativistic. You want the right to kill people if they “wrongs you”. I feel I have the right to do what ever I want to, *including* irrational desires and the “right” to kill people even if they haven't “wronged” me in any way. Byt if we leave the world of make believe, dreams and wishful thinking we have to face reality. As you said “Might is right”. You want to be able to kill people based on subjective ideas about “wronging you”. That is nice, but you have to deal with society because society has the power to send you to jail. You can talk about your “rights” as much as you want to but that dones not change anything. Have you ever killed anyone? I guess not.

Me? I would like to do what ever I want to without having to face the law or the opinion of other people, and I can imagine a lot of situations where I would be able to kill without feeling any kind of remorse, but I know too much about human nature to want to disband society and the law.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
3. Stupid people should be allowed to die. Drug overdoses and suicides should be allowed to run their natural course.


Most people are stupid. If you lok at the US most are Christian and a lot of them believe in very stupid things like intelligent design, hell, UFOs, Noas Arch and so on. A lot of people also eat too much and/or smoke and/or have sex without a condom knowing that it can kill them. Yes, people are stupid, but most of the time it doesn't kill them (at least not right away). If you look at drug abuse and suicides I don't know if stupidity is the beast explanation, but every one has the ”right” to care or ignore who they want to, or to kill or stimulate themselves in any way they want to. I would be more then willing to give drugs or a loaded gun to people how I disliked and who wanted to kill themselves, but I would also be willing to try to save people who I loved. How should society act? Society should act in society's best interest. You don't need morality to figure this one out but a cost benefit analysis.

Bottom line: You believe in some sort of objective morality including “rights” and “worth”. I don't. I my world nothing have any worth except subjective worth and “rights” is something you have if you are able to force your values on other people, or if your “rights” are part of the society you live in. I am a ateist, a rationalist and a relativist with a specific set of acknowledged subjective values.

- Amina

Top
#5998 - 03/20/08 01:03 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: cpboeg]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: cpboeg
I find everything you write quite absurd. First and foremost, SATAN does not obide the law and does not wish for acceptance from the crowd.


I don't think you read my text, but who cares – this is your first post to the forum so you are probably a clone or something.

Satanism (in my personal view!) is about getting what you want and living life to the fullest. Satanism is not about handicapping yourself or sacrificing yourself because of imaginary moral ideals. If cooperating works, then satanists corporate. If it doesn't, then they don't. Acceptance of terms laid down by other people is sensible if you agree on those terms, if it will further your own interests to act as if you agree or if you are forced to act like you agree (for a time...). Satanists do not let themselves get killed as martyrs, and they do not want unneeded negative attention. Some satanists are happy to be secretive about there beliefs, others want to be able to have the same rights as members of other religious groups. Both groups would have a hard time if society believed them to be as dangerous as Islamic terrorists, but if you exclude insane Christian fundamentalists most people view satanists as odd by harmless. Face it, the investigation of the Satanic Panics disproved a subversive satanic conspiracy, if you look at the statistics most satanists are teens who soon move on to something different and the number of serious old time satanists of any kind is small. With ghetto crime, drug wars, terrorists, white trash and so on satanists is definitely one of society's lesser worries.

 Originally Posted By: cpboeg
I am interested, although i am aware that this is laveyan ground, how you legitimize your use of the word "satanism", when your definition clarifies beyond doubt that you do not consider the word "satan"s meaning in your definition, do not believe in any form of entity which you would call satan, do not idolize aforesaid entities attributes and do not attempt to evolve in the direction of the entity.


The short answer is: I agree with Wittgenstein not Plato when it comes to the meaning of words.

I'm a constructionist not an essentialist. Words (and gods) are human constructions and the meaning of words is defined by use. As stated in the text I view some definitions of Satanism as more sensible then others and I have a subjective definition, but the word does not have a meaning on its own.

- Amina

Top
#6005 - 03/20/08 01:28 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
Cpboeg she called you a clone. Thank you Professor Amina for the enlightening, yet terribly long drawn 4 page thesis on a well defined Satanism.

Amina did you cry in school when you got a bad grade? Cuz it feels like you are an over achiever. It's like your fighting with all your might to be right or correct in some way, even when most of the active forum members here strongly disagree with you on many points. This thread feels like a school.



Edited by LUCIFERIFIC (03/20/08 01:29 PM)
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


Top
#6223 - 03/23/08 01:00 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
Cpboeg she called you a clone. Thank you Professor Amina for the enlightening, yet terribly long drawn 4 page thesis on a well defined Satanism.

Amina did you cry in school when you got a bad grade? Cuz it feels like you are an over achiever. It's like your fighting with all your might to be right or correct in some way, even when most of the active forum members here strongly disagree with you on many points. This thread feels like a school.



This just begs the one question I've been thinking of for quite some time (this isn't aimed at you, my dearest Luciferific...);

Does it really matter whether there is one or more religions/ideologies that go under the name of "Satanism"? Some Satanists are traditional, and some are LaVeyan. The only difference being is that they share somewhat different belief systems in terms of worship. We're practically flying the same banner in some respects, but we just agree and disagree on different topics. Some believe that there may be a higher force than us human beings, and the rest believe we are the magic makers.

This debate could go on for an epoch. I dunno about the rest of the forum, but this topic is kinda giving me a headache now. But hey, that's my view point. I just don't see the point of going on and on and on...... you get my drift.
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

Top
#6234 - 03/23/08 05:24 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: DistroyA]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
It doesn't really seem like the debate has moved on in four pages. Largely, it seems, because members are reading something into Amina's first post that simply isn't there.

 Originally Posted By: Amina
If an individual wants to meaningfully declare himself or herself a Satanist, the person must decide on a specific meaning of the term. It is possible for the Satanist to respect other uses, but he or she can hardly consider other definitions to be equals or included in his or her own definition, even if they use the same denomination.

In other words, the word "Satanism" means different things to different people. Sometimes these meanings are mutually exclusive. Since no authority exists to establish exclusive rights to the word, each of us must take personal responsibility for its use. This is hardly controversial stuff, surely?

Stag

Top
Page 4 of 5 <12345>


Moderator:  Woland, TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.024 seconds of which 0.001 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.