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#4996 - 03/08/08 11:59 AM One Satanism or more Satanisms?
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
I wrote this text some years ago in danish. The text was translated into english some time ago, and now I would like to share it with some of the enghlish speaking population. As stated in the text people are free to used it as long as the text is used unedited etc.

- Amina

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One Satanism or More Satanisms

by Amina Olander Lap (www.smwane.dk)

1. Introduction
Satanists with vague or even lacking definitions of their philosophy are not far between. These individuals are often quite willing to accept several definitions of “true Satanism” as equally valid, usually arguing that Satanism is about choosing one’s own philosophy and one’s own norms.

But then why call one’s philosophy Satanism? If all the word implies is an individual approach, then why not just refer to oneself as an independent individualist? It would, after all, remove the confinement of being linked with a concept that most other people scorn. It is tempting to suggest that perhaps their openness to a liberal definition is a sign of apathy, or a sign that their own definition is unclear. If either of these possibilities is the reason for accepting multiple definitions, is it then meaningful to declare oneself a Satanist? This article attempts to answer this question.

2. Isms, Words, and Concepts

The word “Satanism” can be divided into the prefix “Satan” and the suffix “ism.” The suffix indicates ways acting or thinking, or a spiritual or ideological movement originating in a concept of “Satan.” This fact alone does not lead to an interpretation of “Satan,” nor does it indicate which phenomenon “Satanism” covers, however.

A closer look at the word is needed to properly decode its meaning. To begin with, it is of paramount importance to distinguish between two coexisting interpretations that should never be mixed or confused with each other.

1. The word Satanism refers to an imagined subversive, anti-Christian conspiracy that is controlled by, or in league with, the Devil. This definition can easily be dismissed as mere imagination, however, for two evident reasons. Firstly, the definition requires the phenomenon to exist (which it does not), and secondly, the phenomenon is presented in vague and contradictory terms. This definition is thus pure imagination, and does not describe an existing phenomenon.

2. The word refers to a philosophy, ideology or religion that is shared by groups of self-declared Satanists. Various such groups provide different definitions that, to a varying degree, oppose each other. We are thus dealing with several definitions of which some may be classified as philosophies or religions.

With these two commonly confused interpretations properly separated, the definition of the term “Satanism” can be narrowed by examining the integrity of some of the most common statements.

“Anything Is Satanic”

The statement is found among both self-declared Satanists claiming that whatever they happen to be doing is Satanic by definition, and non-Satanists asserting that, e.g., black clothes or role playing games are Satanic.

If Satanism is defined such that anything is Satanic, the term loses defining power. It is meaningless to use a definition if it does not establish a dichotomy, that is, if it does not determine when certain attributes are present or not. For example, it makes no sense to speak about birds unless one is able to explain whether an object is a bird or something else. Hence, the statement “I am a Satanist” becomes meaningless if Satanism means anything. The statement expresses nothing.

“Anything Called Satanism Is Satanism

This statement is redundant, because its predicate is contained by the subject. The statement may be compared to the statement: “all felines are members of the cat family.” While the statement may help explain the word “feline” to a child, the statement does not clarify what precisely a feline is, because knowing that the word “feline” implies “member of the cat family,” the statement provides no new information. In the former statement, “anything called Satanism is Satanic,” term and description are identical, and neither are defined.

The statement dilutes the definition to such a degree that it loses all descriptive power. In addition, the statement focuses entirely on the expressions and ignores—or forgets—its existence. If one were to claim that “anything called birds are birds,” the statement would be evidently wrong (an elephant does not turn into a bird just because someone calls it a bird), and this is obviously also true for the statement “anything called Satanism is Satanism.” If one was to use the word “bird” about anything other than birds, the person doing so would be accused of either not knowing what the word meant or of using it improperly. A term cannot be used in practice unless proper rules exist for valid and invalid uses of the word, because the otherwise the term would be meaningless.

Indicentally, in practice the statement “anything called Satanism is Satanism” and the statement “anything is Satanic” are identical, because virtually everything has been deemed Satanic at some point.

“Anyone Who Calls Himself a Satanist Is a Satanist”

This expression, too, is redundant. No new information is offered with the proclamation that someone that calls himself a Satanist is a Satanist, except perhaps that the person considers himself or herself one.

The statement only explains what the person calls himself or herself, but it does not explain how the person acts or what the person thinks, and can therefore hardly be descriptive as an -ism.

For a definition that is based only on description and not on content, it is just the use of the particular word “Satanist” that makes the difference. This implies that if a parrot was taught to say “I’m a Satanist,” this skill would make the parrot qualify as one. (If one became a physician by just calling oneself a physician, people might think twice before visiting their physician.)

If one choses this definition of Satanism, one must accept the fact that no individual can make particular claim to the title as a Satanist. One may acknowledge the fact that some have better knowledge of various groups and their interpretations of Satanism, but it will not make sense to state that Anton LaVey is better suited for the title than a confused teen-age boy.

The definition also implies that The Satanic Bible has no more importance than grafitti with anti-Christian slogans, and that it is not possible to determine whether homicide, suicide, human sacrifice, theft, rape, and other crime can be linked with Satanism. The only criterion is that just one individual declares that such acts are Satanic. It is also impossible to answer questions about the Satanic philosophy.

3. Criteria for an Objective Definition
Satanism can only be defined meaningfully if the term describes a concept that can be distinguished from other concepts. It means that the definition must be narrow enough to become destinctive. In short, the definition must provide a means of determining when something is Satanism and when it is not.

Objective research imposes a limit on the phenomena that are included within one’s scope. Furthermore, a subdivision into various categories of Satanism may be necessary, unless the initial definition is very exclusive, because it may not always be possible to meaningfully group all the phenomena included in the research together.

Here, too, it is of utmost importance to properly explain the subdivisions and not to mix two subcategories. It is possible to have multiple meanings of a word, but in that case their meanings must be defined independently. A “bat” is both an winged mammal and a wooden club, for example, but a baseball player striking the ball with the animal would probably not bat a home run, and animals are not made of wood. Both uses of the word “bat” are correct, but the uses only make sense when the two meanings are kept separate and the specific meaning is revealed by the context. In most cases it would lead to meaningless and contradictory statements if such different meanings of a word were mixed, as if used to describe the same phenomenon. In the case of Satanism, it is typically Christian myths that must be kept away from existing philosophies and ideologies.


If nonetheless some general statements about Satanism are desired, one should weigh observations according to the sizes of the Satanic groups and which sources are taken seriously by most Satanists. General statements must necessarily be deduced from general tendencies, not sensational anecdotes. Descriptions of Satanism as an existing phenomenon must be derived from those thoughts and actions that can be found among existing Satanists. Accepting Christian myths about Satanism as a self-contained “type of Satanism” is tantamount to considering anti-Semitic statements constituent of a “type of Judaism.”

4. Criteria for a Subjective Definition
If Satanists are to define their own philosophy, the Satanists must determine which key elements distinguish Satanism from other philosophies or religions. In addition, the Satanists must determine which areas of their lives Satanism applies to. Does Satanism include philosophy, religion and politics, or does it apply only to life style or dress code? Do the Satanists choose Satanism as a philosophy or just a cool label? The Satanists must decide whether the term “Satanist” is a word that is used without meaning, or whether it adequately sets the stage for their philosophy. This demand also applies when others call themselves Satanists. If the term does not describe anything tangible, it doesn’t describe anything at all.

Groups that define their own form of Satanism do not necessarily consider everything else un-Satanic. Few concepts are black and white, and the groups could easily find “degrees of Satanism” in other philosophies. Certain elements may be considered irrelevant; for example, one may find Atheism much more relevant for one’s definition than a particular dress code.

In spite of these open borders towards other definitions of Satanism, each Satanist must eventually recognize that he or she is being subjective and considers some definitions better than others. If nothing else, the Satanist has pieced together his or her personal philosophy in a way that is most meaningful to the Satanist. Other definitions will vary from that definition, and compared to those definitions, one’s own definition will (at least subjectively) be considered superior.

5. Which Definition Is Best?
To answer the question of which definition of Satanism is the best one, it is necessary to evaluate its degree of selfcontradiction and its clarity of concepts. If a definition cannot provide a concept that can be distinguished from other concepts, as happens if the definition is too broad, the definition is useless or deficient at best. If the definition involves mutually exclusive constructs, then the concept does not provide any clarification.

Furthermore, if Satanism is to be accepted as a philosophy, it must be defined according to the usual requirements of a philosophy. Among other requirements, Satanism must consider the fundamental philosophical questions, and a philosophical method must be applied in arguments. If these requirements are not met, either the definition does not define a philosophy, or the philosophy is primitive and lacks substance.

Defining Satanism as inverse Christianity or as anything called Satanism does not meet any of the above requirements.

A poor definition does not prevent a group from using the definition, but the group will soon find itself responding to criticism by stating that the critics lack proper understanding or that inconsistencies are part of a larger whole, or by modifying the definition ad hoc to meet the criticism, then claiming that the definition always did.

6. Other “Satan” Groups
It is remarkable that some Satanists that usually imagine themselves as authorities on questions of values and moral are very hesitant to entering a debate when another Satanist considers something “Satanic.” Satanists, in particular, would be thought to question everything, so could it really be that the Devil’s advocates are fooled when the defendant pretends to be like-minded?

There is no reason to trust other groups, just because they refer to themselves as Satanists. Many such groups are so different that they can be either atheistic or theistic, and their paradigms can be quite incompatible.

In practice, Satanism represents a plurality of definitions where “Satanism” is the only common denominator, and where often a Satanic group has more similarities with other religions and philosophies than with other groups claiming to be Satanic.

Comparisons between Satanic groups can be made from symbols and mythology, and from philosophical content. Different Satanic groups sport Christian, Norse, Buddhist, or Egyptian mythology and symbolism, and there are groups that use either Western paradigms or Eastern teachings. Some groups are best classified as religious groups, whereas other groups are better categorized as philosophies or maybe just youth subcultures.

Plurality of definitions under one umbrella religion is a common phenomenon; for example, Christianity alone counts more than 25,000 different interpretations. Yet all of these groups base their ideology on the same one book, the same one mythology, and to a certain extent the same fundamental statements. Satanism does not have such fundamental constraints, however, allowing a much wider plurality. In fact, the odds of agreeing with any arbitrarily selected Satanic group are probably about the same as those of agreeing with any other random religion or philosophic grouping.

Hence, if one adopts a reasonably unambiguous definition of the essentials of Satanism, one is forced to reject certain groups as Satanic, or at least consider them other kinds of Satanists that use the term differently. They must be considered wholly separate phenomena that have no relevance for one’s own definition of Satanism.

7. Corollaries of Definition
When Christians describe Satanism, usually they base the definition of their own religious world-view, which often prompts them to consider other religions, popular culture (such as rock n’ roll music), other Christian groups, political systems, atheists, feminists, vegetarians, homosexuals, etc. to be Satanists. The definitions fit their own world-view, but do not meet the demands of science. Hence, their definitions should be regarded as religious statements that demonize phenomena that are incompatible with their world-views.

A sociological view starts with groups that use the term about themselves and those phenomena that the groups consider covered by the term. The next step is to separate myth from existing groups, and variance from norm. First then is it possible to say anything meaningful. The sociological description of Satanism will influence public opinion, and may be used in a legal context where Satanic connections are postulated, or where fundamental rights of Satanists are violated.

When Satanists describe Satanism, they define their philosophy. It means that they adopt issues that they consider positive or at least rational. Their definitions influence their own understanding of Satanism, but also influence society arround them if they propagate information through interviews or homepages. If one considers the way clearly boundable concepts such as “jews” or “blacks” have been viewed throughout History, it is evident that public opinion has immense importance. Negative prejudice has caused persecution, genocide and slavery.

From the perspective of self-preservation, it is absolutely stupid when some Satanists publicly connect their own philosophy with groups that are criminals or advocate crime, especially if the particular group of Satanists does not itself support such initiatives. It may be fun as a “chock effect” if one is a confused teen, but as an adult with a professional career it is highly disadvantageous. If Satanism were as groups such as “Order of Nine Angels” claim, Satanism would be outlawed, children of Satanists would be forcefully removed, and the Satanists themselves would be given mental treatment. Fortunately, Satanism is not like that, and groups such as “Order of Nine Angels” are a parody at best, and never acted as they claimed. Supporting positions that counteract one’s own position or undermine one’s ability to lead a proper life is self-destructive. If a Satanist supports such groups as “a part of Satanism” in spite of disagreeing with the philosophies of such groups, the Satanist has a confused definition of Satanism and maybe harbors a secret wish for self-destruction. Such Satanists damage not only themselves, but also other Satanists.

8. Conclusion
If a term includes everything, it covers nothing. To use a particular term, the term must be defined in such a way that correct and incorrect use can be determined. This means that the term must be reasonably clearly defined, and if the term has multiple meanings, each meaning must be defined independently of the other meanings. Using definitions such as “anyone that calls himself a Satanist is a Satanist” or “anything called Satanism is Satanism” are not valid definitions, because they are both unclear, self-contradictory and without content.

If an individual wants to meaningfully declare himself or herself a Satanist, the person must decide on a specific meaning of the term. It is possible for the Satanist to respect other uses, but he or she can hardly consider other definitions to be equals or included in his or her own definition, even if they use the same denomination.

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Copyright: this text is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 2.5 license. You may use this text for non-commercial purposes provided that the contents are unchanged, that you credit the author by linking to this article at http://www.smwane.dk/content/view/225/36/, and that this copyright note is left intact.

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#4999 - 03/08/08 12:28 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Amina
If Satanism were as groups such as “Order of Nine Angels” claim, Satanism would be outlawed, children of Satanists would be forcefully removed, and the Satanists themselves would be given mental treatment. Fortunately, Satanism is not like that, and groups such as “Order of Nine Angels” are a parody at best, and never acted as they claimed. Supporting positions that counteract one’s own position or undermine one’s ability to lead a proper life is self-destructive. If a Satanist supports such groups as “a part of Satanism” in spite of disagreeing with the philosophies of such groups, the Satanist has a confused definition of Satanism and maybe harbors a secret wish for self-destruction. Such Satanists damage not only themselves, but also other Satanists.



So what's wrong with the ONA again? Is it ok for "Satanism" to reject and deny religious laws, because its safe to do so without being rejected by the Mob? But doing things and living life your own way, even if it goes against civil laws is "unsatanic" and should be rejected by "True Satanist" because it gives Satanism a bad image? As if we have a proper fluffy image in the first place?

If it weren't for a select few who planned and met in secret, and risked their lives to be outlaws against the British Crown and fight for their freedom to live their lives as they want and not pay ridiculous taxes, their would be no America. If parliamentarians had not collected armies to reject the power and laws of kings, you'd still be a serf and subject of your Queen of Denmark.

Without rebellion there is stagnation. Stagnation breeds disease and leads to eventual death of an organization, religion, or empire. What kind of Satanism instructs its followers to keep themselves subjects of the whims of the mob, and satan forbid, reject and deny their divinely inspired laws of state?
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#5001 - 03/08/08 01:19 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
Lucifer, I do not see you civil name or your picture in your profile. You can see my civil name and my picture. I have given more then 30 public interviews representing Satanism in Denmark and my name and my face has always been visible. Every journalist, schoolboy, Christian fanatic and psychopath can easily find my phonenenumber and my address and give me a call, and often they do.

If you are willing to do the same then I would also be willing to discuss our public image, what we can do to change it and why I do not want to fight for a imaginary groups right to postulate human sacrifice as a part of Satanism. It is so easy to speak about rebellion when you hide behind a screenname in your safe satanic internet forum.

- Amina

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#5005 - 03/08/08 01:54 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
I highly doubt satanic forums are my primary outlet of "satanic" self expression. I have my pictures and civil name posted in a more appropriate place. Why would i feel the need to share such information with a bunch of strangers? "Our" public images? Who died and made you little Miss Suzy Q Denmark spokes person of Our Image and Our Satanism? I don't remember ever voting for you to represent me and my Satanism? I'm sure you're doing Your Satanic community a lot of good spreading positive PR to the public 30 times like a super hero should. I'm sure we really need that, god forbid those Christians actually think We worship Satan and all. You also sound like a masochist who enjoys getting random fone calls from christain fanatics and psychopaths. I really can't do much with people on an internet forum, beside appear to easily speak about rebellion. Now if i could use you, abuse you, and slap you silly thru this medium for acting like Miss Satan's Speaker to the world, I would. The ONA thru its writings have had their share of influencing Satanism as much as any satanic writing. What right or authority do you have to pick and choose an aspect of Satanism and call it "true Satanism" while rejecting another and stating that it not Satanism just because of certain "opinions" they might have on established laws? I think "Satanism" is an individualistic tool used by an individual person who subscribes to the basic principles for his or her own personal growth and liberation. If this growth and liberation includes liberation from established law and order, than it is this individual's right as a "Satanist" to believe what he/she wills. You have nothing to do with his/her choosing to define what his/her Satanism should be. Satanism isn't a collectivist "organism," you can't truly believe you are speaking for every other Satanist in the world when you give out your 30 lectures do you?

I vote for King Diamond as my representative and spokes person. He's cool. You need to take a few lessons in Satanism from him. Pick up a sword like you Danish Metal Head do and wack someone with it. Get back in touch with living life, and stop losing your mind in "Isms". Satanism doesn't need a spokes person with an archive of 3 thousand stuff.


Edited by LUCIFERIFIC (03/08/08 02:13 PM)
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#5008 - 03/08/08 03:16 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
King Diamond is danish and a Church of Satan member. We interviewed him for our magazine some years ago. He has been interviewd on Satanism a lot of times and telling by his replays you can see that he do mind the public image of Satanism. He has tried to educate people on Satanism and he has tried to remove some of the misconceptions that the ONA try to hold on to. This is fact.

No one died and made my anything, but the facts are like this: you can say what ever you want about Satanism and go hide if anyone want you to stand up for you beliefs. Talk is cheap when you speak from behind a screenname on a computer. And no, I am not a masochist. No harm have ever come to me only a few odd phone calls. In Denmark the public image of satanisme has changed in the last 15 years and the change has only been to the better because of the active role played by responsible danish satanists. In the US the CoS, the ToS and other organizations have done more or less the same. Try asking some of the old ones like Aquino how it was to live in the days of the Satanic Panic. I am sure they would have a thing or two to tell you about the influence of the ONA.

Regarding ONA, its history and its influence you could try to read some of the academic literature on Satanism. You could start with the book I recommended. I don't know if you view academic writing as fictions or facts, but you could give it a go anyway.

You could also try to read my article again. I do not say that the ONA isn't a satanic group. I point out that the ONA is not representative of modern Satanism (look at the statistics for Satans sake!) and that one needs to be very masochistic (to use your word) if one wants to be viewed in the ligt of the ONA, unless one actually feel a need to sacrifice humans to Satan. Have you ever sacrificed anyone to our dark lord? I haven't, and as far as I know no ONA member have ever killed anyone.

And yes, Satanism is individualistic. Read my article agaian. I do not say what Satanism is and what it isn't. I just point out that some definitions are better then others (like - big surprise - logic isn't my invention), that you need a definition to be able to talk about Satanism (another big, big surprise apparently!) and that the different forms of Satanism are so different that you need to talk about Satanism in plural if you want to say anything about it (notic, I do not define Satanism, but talk about different forms of Satanism - including the ONA). I also point out that some forms of Satanism are more common then others (surprise, surprise), and as you noticed, the ONA is not one of the most common form. You can agree or disagree but that do not change the size of the different organizations.

And no, I do not represent all satanists. I never said so. I represented the CoS years ago but that is ancient history. Today I represent the most common kind of Satanism in Denmark (this is a fact) and I have enough knowledge about the other kinds to weed out common misconceptions. I am educated in the field of history of religion and reed what I collect for my archive. This does not make me a master of Satanism, but it do make me more knowing about the history and sociology of Satanism then most people. You can disagree all you want, but that does not change history or statistics.

Returning to the dickfight. I could ask you: with what authority do you criticize me? Show me what you got or leave me at peace. Change your profile and show me your face, your real name and your real occupation. As I said: talk is cheep. I am no master or hero of Satanism but you get what you see, and see what you get. Now show me what you got...

- Amina

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#5010 - 03/08/08 04:45 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Amina

Returning to the dickfight. I could ask you: with what authority do you criticize me? Show me what you got or leave me at peace. Change your profile and show me your face, your real name and your real occupation. As I said: talk is cheep. I am no master or hero of Satanism but you get what you see, and see what you get. Now show me what you got...

- Amina
True Dat... Talk is cheap, and you do a lot of it here, with your long winded posts. Isn't all you do is talk? Like when you do your PRs for Satanism? And you're proud of it too. Unless you're dancing on stage while you're teaching people about the positive lovie-dovie side of Satanism; maybe then i'd pay some attention to you. Thats what Satanism needs Stripper Priestesses. You need to reread LaVeys Satanic Witch girl; take of that black goth wardrobe, stick on a pair of cupless bras, high heels, and a mini skirt for us, like I do... i am a slut for satan. The last thing Satanism needs is a "Know-It-All."

I always knew you europeans would end up like this with your hoity-toity "lets all love each other" socialism - welfare-states. It breeds pussies who are afraid to kick ass and go out in the world and exploit people for personal gain and profit like American Capitalism does. Like your kindred the French. My god, they haven't won a war since the revolution. You Danes are headed that way too. We don't need fou fou wimps telling us what the most "Feared religion" is or isn't. You Danes need and the rest of you europeans need to get off your namby-pamby asses, get them into that backwards sandbox in the middle east and help us kill people. Lifes about living it, not about reading on it. Satanism is a reflection of life - Satan represents Vital existence. You need take your head out of your archives, get your ass in that street and live Satanism. Show people what is is through your actions, and not by lecturing and doing a PR campaign. Anyone can talk Anima; anyone can read, and collect archives; but few can make practical use of what they learn of Satanism and live it.

One more thing; i don't know what kind of girls you Vikings are down there, but I don't have a dick to fight with; i got a big cloven hoof. I'll take a pic of it and show you what I got girl, just tell me where to send it; and i want to see yours too.


Edited by LUCIFERIFIC (03/08/08 04:48 PM)
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#5011 - 03/08/08 04:56 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
....and we are still waiting for you to show what you got...

- Amina

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#5013 - 03/08/08 05:11 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Amina
....and we are still waiting for you to show what you got...

- Amina
"we?" do you have a little demon friend i can't see? So are you challenging me to a debate to see whose the biggest and baddest satanist to safe face? Are you asking me to finger your ego off for you here, since you can't do enough of it yourself? Do i look like a geek who aced Debate Class in High School?
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#5015 - 03/08/08 05:13 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
...still waiting....
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#5021 - 03/08/08 06:15 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
A discussion on the nature of Satanism seems incomplete without going into any substantial detail about the nature of Satan Himself. I see you take a very scholarly approach to your Satanism, so perhaps you have this covered elsewhere.

Different approaches to Satanism (many of them mutually incompatible) can be separatetd in terms of how they view their Infernal patron. To the Order of Nine Angles, He is mankind's gateway to the Abyss. To the Church of Satan, a cartoonish mascot.

Stag.

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#5031 - 03/08/08 06:49 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Stag]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
My article does not try to define the "one and only true Satanism", and it does not try to explain the different kinds of Satanism. It is only a discussion on how to make more or less good objective and subjective definitions of Satanism(s). I have written a lot of other texts in danish but they have not been translated. Some are on different groups, some are on topics like rituals, moral, sexuality etc. and others are more academic writings with a sociological view on Satanism. When I try to explain the difference between groups I usually look at features like these:

Atheism vs. theism
Rationalism vs. occultism
Humanism vs. social Darwinism

Church of Satan would be something like Atheism/rationalism with a twist of occultism/Social Darwinism. I Guess ONA would be something like Theism/Occultism/Social Darwinism.

- Amina

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#5035 - 03/08/08 07:55 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I don't think you really get it.
Perhaps, in your country things are different.
Perhaps, you writings were translated incorrectly.

Satanism is not about a political statement, a dress code, or the old trendy satanic panic of the 1980's.

Here it's more personal.
The thoughts, ideals, personal perspective, and the personal choices and actions.

Yes, to you the ONA may not be "normal or acceptable", but it was a new creative ideal thought out system. Yes, people did go to jail for carrying out their actions based on its writing.
I dont think it was a parady, I thought it was inventive.

There are different types of Satanists. It has a long history beyond the panic, and Lavey writings. Its a matter of growth and acceptance that people with similar ideas can have things in common, yet be different and accepting of each others personal internal summations of belief and universal structure.

I think you should stay around here a while and read things. You might learn some new things and a new perspective. This board is international, and has been around for many years in different incarnations.

take care,
Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#5036 - 03/08/08 08:05 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Having your name and address public is stupid.
You have been lucky.
My is not and I have still had stalkers and people try to find me.
Having a note slipped under your front door is not a nice thing to find.

I have also given interviews, been on tv, and done media about who I am, and my beliefs on german, russian, and british television. I have been on A&E, Comedy central, E!, Playboy and etc.

Its not a big deal being in the media, Its more important who you are when the cameras are off.

I dont care about the being the spokes person for Satanism as a whole. I am the spokesperson for myself, and my own ideas.

For the most part I can honestly say, that I would honestly kill the person who would rope me with the jos or CoS.
Satanism, its various groups, and its branches have philosophy differences. I think you need to be learn that.

Be careful, there are still people in this world who kill others for their beliefs.

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#5041 - 03/08/08 08:51 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Amina
My article does not try to define the "one and only true satanism"... - Amina


 Originally Posted By: Amina


One Satanism or More Satanisms

by Amina Olander Lap (www.smwane.dk)

1. Introduction
Satanists with vague or even lacking definitions of their philosophy are not far between. These individuals are often quite willing to accept several definitions of “true Satanism” as equally valid, usually arguing that Satanism is about choosing one’s own philosophy and one’s own norms.

But then why call one’s philosophy Satanism? If all the word implies is an individual approach, then why not just refer to oneself as an independent individualist? It would, after all, remove the confinement of being linked with a concept that most other people scorn. It is tempting to suggest that perhaps their openness to a liberal definition is a sign of apathy, or a sign that their own definition is unclear.

5. Which Definition Is Best?
To answer the question of which definition of Satanism is the best one, it is necessary to evaluate its degree of selfcontradiction and its clarity of concepts. If a definition cannot provide a concept that can be distinguished from other concepts, as happens if the definition is too broad, the definition is useless or deficient at best. If the definition involves mutually exclusive constructs, then the concept does not provide any clarification.

Furthermore, if Satanism is to be accepted as a philosophy, it must be defined according to the usual requirements of a philosophy. Among other requirements, Satanism must consider the fundamental philosophical questions, and a philosophical method must be applied in arguments. If these requirements are not met, either the definition does not define a philosophy, or the philosophy is primitive and lacks substance.

8. Conclusion
If a term includes everything, it covers nothing. To use a particular term, the term must be defined in such a way that correct and incorrect use can be determined. This means that the term must be reasonably clearly defined, and if the term has multiple meanings, each meaning must be defined independently of the other meanings. Using definitions such as “anyone that calls himself a Satanist is a Satanist” or “anything called Satanism is Satanismare not valid definitions, because they are both unclear, self-contradictory and without content.


So tell me how you aren't trying to define Satanism, when you are trying to define Satanism everywhere in your essay again?
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#5045 - 03/08/08 09:43 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Sordid Archetype Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Long Island, NY
Well, I must say: your post is certainly loquacious.
I'm glad you are the expert on such matters here. Without your elucidate words I'd be entirely lost.

Tell me though, you stated this in your post:
 Quote:
He or she can hardly consider other definitions to be equals or included in his or her own definition, even if they use the same denomination.

In other words you are the type of individual to believe that "unless you believe in my beliefs you are simply wrong?" I suppose you wouldn't be willing to even indulge in a new perspective, would you? Funny... the inquisitions come to mind off hand.

Your topic subject is "One Satanism or more Satanisms," yet your content suggests something more along the lines of "How a real satanist should define Satanism."

What is it exactly you are trying to accomplish with this thread?
_________________________
The only god I believe in is me. . .

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#5066 - 03/09/08 04:45 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
I don't think you really get it.


I think you misread my article or missed the point. It could be about translation, but I think it is more about education? I write with a more sociological view on Satanism and religion.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Here it's more personal.
The thoughts, ideals, personal perspective, and the personal choices and actions.


And? You can still identify many kinds of Satanism, and the individual satanist have to choose his kind of Satanism, if he wants to be able to *explain* what his beliefs are about. You need to have a definition of Satanism if you want to say anything sensible about Satanism. And yes, I know about American Satanism. In sociological terms it is often viewed as a part of the New Age or a part of the Human Potential Movement. Satanists are very individualistic and mix different ideas. I know that. I also know that many satanists are not able to explain there beliefs or to explain how they differentiate between the kind of Satanism they believe in and the other kinds of Satanism they do not believe in. Hell, many would not even be able to explain the real difference between Satanism and Christianity without just quoting Lavey on the issue.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Yes, to you the ONA may not be "normal or acceptable", but it was a new creative ideal thought out system. Yes, people did go to jail for carrying out their actions based on its writing.


Did they? I didn't think any members ever did act out on there texts. I have no issue with it being acceptable, wrong or not. But I have an issue whit the "friends" I choose. I do not want to take the blame for others just because they claim to be satanists.

- Amina

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#5067 - 03/09/08 05:04 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Having your name and address public is stupid.
You have been lucky.


No I have not. I am not the only danish satanist who have done so for more then ten years and no one have ever had any harm come to them. A few have had to step back a bit because of work, but no one have had any real trouble. I Denmark Satanism is not viewed as as dangerous as it is in the US because we live in a less religious country. We never had a satanic panic, we never had a fundamentalistic Christian president and we do not have strong belief. Most dances are Christian but they never go to church, never read the bible, they don't believe in hell or the devil and many view Christianity more as a philosophy then as a religion. I have been a public satanist for ten years. I have two kids and all the other parents know that I am a satanist but I am still on the school board and my kinds have a lot of friends how visits them. People in Denmark are not insane like some of the religious people are in the US.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Its not a big deal being in the media, Its more important who you are when the cameras are off.


You are right, but the public image of Satanism also count. You had LaVey, Aquino and others in the old days. In Denmark we only had one danish TV channel in the late 80'ties today we have a few more, but just a few. When you do an interview in the danish media it is usually distributed to the whole countries. In a small country you are actually able to change the way the media present Satanism. It is not the same as it is in the US, but even in the US LaVey and others where able to influence the media.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Satanism, its various groups, and its branches have philosophy differences. I think you need to be learn that.


Do I? Then I think you missed my point. My point was that you need to talk about Satanism in the plural. The is not one Satanism but many satanisms.

- Amina

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#5068 - 03/09/08 05:20 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
So tell me how you aren't trying to define satanism, when you are trying to define satanism everywhere in your essay again?


For Satans sake, how can this be so hard to understand!?

I am talking about different *ways* of defining Satanism and how some definitions work better then others. Like duh!. If you think one of my discarded definitions like "everything is Satanism" works for you, then for Satans sake use it. I would be a bit surprised if you actually believed that one of the discarded definitions where the way to go, but who knows. One could define Satanism as anything, but one has to be at total moron not to be able to see that some definitions make more sense then others. I also say that there are many kinds of Satanism and that they should be viewed as separate or different KINDS of Satanism. I say a few words on some of the differences, but I do not explain any of them in depth. So I talk about ways of defining Satanism without delivering a definition of one "true" kind of Satanism.

Just for kicks: how do you define Satanism and do you view Satanism a differentiated or not? Come on - I am sure you have some excellent ideas about how academics and satanists should understand the phenomena when trying to explain it to themselves ands others.

- Amina

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#5069 - 03/09/08 05:35 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
 Originally Posted By: Amina
For Satans sake, then for Satans sake

Anyone who says for Satan's sake is clearly a child desperately in need of attention... This is why you enjoy exposing yourself so...

I have also noticed that the ones here that feel the need to have Satanism defined or explained, and those that talk so much about it is done mostly by the nons in our group... I always thought this due the the fact that they were afraid they might be Satanist...

Perhaps you are a Wiccian just confused...

Nothing to see here, move along...

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#5070 - 03/09/08 05:36 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Sordid Archetype]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Sordid Archetype
I'm glad you are the expert on such matters here. Without your elucidate words I'd be entirely lost.


If you think my way of using logic is wrong then please enlighten me. Tell me how my discarded definitions would make more sense then the definitions I *do* use. And while you are ad it - please tell me how you define Satanism in your own life and how you would define Satanism if you had to write a school paper or a book for non satanists.

 Originally Posted By: Sordid Archetype
In other words you are the type of individual to believe that "unless you believe in my beliefs you are simply wrong?"


No I am not. I am the sort of person who would change my own belifes if I found a more fitting one. I am the sort of person who always choos the belife that I see as the most sensible one at a given time.

I am a candidate student of the history of religion so I am well aware that different people believe in different things and I accept and respect that. But I do not view all faiths as equally sane or equally fitting for myself in my own life. If I did I would be a Muslim on Mondays, a Wiccan on Thursdays and in the weekends I would be going around looking for UFOs to take me home to Alpha Centauri!

 Originally Posted By: Sordid Archetype
Your topic subject is "One Satanism or more Satanisms," yet your content suggests something more along the lines of "How a real satanist should define Satanism."

What is it exactly you are trying to accomplish with this thread?


No, buy I point out that some definitions are more usable then others. I also point out that many don't even think about how to define Satanism. I would like people to think about how *they* view Satanism and if they take there own belief serious enough to think about it. I also want to point out that Satanism is a differentiated phenomena and that you have to talk about more then one Satanism.

- Amina

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#5097 - 03/09/08 12:45 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Sordid Archetype]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Amina,

I don't know what you know about ONA, but I would hazard to guess I know quite a bit more about ONA than you do. As for what ONA has accomplished, I would recommend our ONA thread:

http://www.the600club.com/dir/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/4446#Post4446

In real terms, the ONA did, in fact, accomplish it's goal. The ONA sought usher in The New Aeon. The rise of the right wing in European politics cannot denied. Even the most liberal of European govts have tightened immigration and placed new requirements on would-be immigrants. This is to say nothing of street level grassroots activism by Nationalists.

The ONA has accomplished more than any single LHP organization without ever getting any mainstream headlines like the CoS. Every clown in goth makeup knows about the CoS. Only a few even know the ONA name, fewer still understand their methods, and only a very few have been involved with them. Involvement with the CoS requires little more than a money order for $200.

Perhaps the key to the ONA's success has been the anonymity of it's members.

It is great that you can operate in the open as a satanist. For me, I will remain anonymous - thank you very much!
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#5105 - 03/09/08 02:23 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Fist]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
I am sorry about hurting the feelings of ONA supporters. On the other hand I know that they would be more then willing to kill me if they added action to talking. So what can I say. It looks like killing people is OK by expressing criticism is a big NO NO even with people who worship evil and think killing is alright. Maybe next time I should just call on our Dark Lord first and ask him to kill off everyone who disagrees with me (joke).

 Originally Posted By: Fist
I don't know what you know about ONA


Most of what I know about the ONA is from reading ten years ago when I first went on the internet. At that time the ONA was more or less a dead organization. The ONA is mentioned in books, but your efforts must have been very secret. The ONA is only mentioned in passig as a very small organization. Today the ONA has some online members, buy I would be very surprised to learn that the ONA is a real organization offline. The last of the founders went and became a fundamentalistic muslim. Call it "lesser magic" or what ever you want - I don't buy it. Do the members meet in real life to sacrifice other members to the dark lord? I guess not. If they do, then please keep on the good work.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
The rise of the right wing in European politics cannot denied. Even the most liberal of European govts have tightened immigration and placed new requirements on would-be immigrants. This is to say nothing of street level grassroots activism by Nationalists.


You are yet to prove the ONAs influence on this. I would not be surprised if the ONA put a lot of effort into this, but I think you would have a hard time proving that the ONAs afford did the trick. As far as I know you are anti-semitic and very anti-Jewish. Most of the left wing organizations in Europe are focused on Muslims, not on Jews. Most would be happy to kill off Muslim Matt. I think your talk about the efforts of the ONA sound like a backward conspiracy theory whit the ONA as the mastermind. Sociologists and others have explanations about why we see right wing groups in Europe. Again, your efforts have been so secret that no on have detected them. Im sorry, but I need more then this. Do the ONA even have a spokesperson these days or is this secret too?

- Amina

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#5107 - 03/09/08 03:21 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Oh, brother... *slaps forehead*

Ok, since you clearly did not follow the link I provided, I will give you a cut-and-paste of my response:

"ONA was one of my first loves travelling down the LHP. Of course, to most of you here, that should come as no surprise.

It is generally considered that Anton Long is the pen name of David Myatt. And yes, Myatt seems to have had a conversion to Islam. This can be taken in one of two ways. The general consensus is that Myatt had some sort of catharsis during one of his prison sentences, and just went from one extremist organization to another. The other way to take this is the way birdstrike does. You would have to understand the particular sort of politically correct insanity being practiced in UK for this to make any sense. But, as a Muslim he would have more public freedom than he would as a Satanist or White Supremacist. In addition, his public support of Jihad would be consistent with a desire to enter the time of RAHOWA.

The ONA was a very real organization. A bit of googling would go a long way to understanding the organization. It is rooted in randomized European paganism, Odinism, Might is Right doctrine and the white supremacist overtones that all of that usually carries with it. Myatt was a foundational figure in modern British Nationalism and in Combat 18.

ONA was founded on warrior ethos, a capacity for stoicism and military style self discipline. An initiate was suppose to be able to endure suffering and be the better for it. Isolation and deprivation were training techniques that were employed in the traditional military fashion.

ONA has out lived it's function as a public organization. However, it's training and lessons still live on as do it's members. You will find almost no one who will admit ever to have been an ONA member. It is as if the organization never existed. However, you will find a more than a few like minds and fellow travellers in the current ranks of the BNP (but you didn't hear that from me!).

I am not aware that Combat 18 is still operational in the UK but it does live on (in name anyway) within the US.

If nothing else, you cannot discount ONA's methods. Nothing succeeds like success, and unless you haven't been watching the news lately, I am pretty sure that we are in the early days of The New Aeon."

If there is ANYTHING in the above that you do not understand then Google it. This is too easy.

It seems to me that you have a preconceived vision of ONA and no amount of facts will change your mind.

And just so we are clear, Satanism is based on the doctrine of Might is Right. Modern Satanism is so based in this doctrine that many have accused LaVey of plagiarism. The fact of the matter is that it is indeed ok to kill. If we accept the Satanic premise that man is an an animal like any other, and we accept the premise that it is ok to kill animals for our own survival, then we must accept the premise that it is ok to kill man. Does this logic elude you?

What is most annoying to 'us' is that 'Satanism' is filled with such a random array of assorted Wiccans, Humanists, Progressives and other RHP White Lighters who simply have an affinity for black clothes. A black sheep is still a sheep.

We are constantly bombarded by this RHP nonsense that continually seeks to redefine Satanism. Satanists are born - not made. If you find yourself doing all sorts of mental contortions to make Satanism fit your instincts, then the chance are quite good that you are not a Satanist. If you cannot instinctively see the utility in killing some people who really deserve it than I cannot help you.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#5114 - 03/09/08 04:35 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Fist]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Fist
The ONA was a very real organization. A bit of googling would go a long way to understanding the organization.


As I said, I read about the org. ten years ago. Unless it has change its philosophy and added a lot of new texts my reading ten years ago should still be valid.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
ONA has out lived it's function as a public organization. However, it's training and lessons still live on as do it's members. You will find almost no one who will admit ever to have been an ONA member. It is as if the organization never existed.[quote=Fist]

Yes, I have that feeling too...it is as if the organization never existed, and as if it was already dead ten year ago. I have talked to people who supported the ONA and who had read ONA texts online and sometimes even made there own ONA webpages, but I have never seen evidence of a real organization. My quotation points to a small scale organization, but I have seen no proof of anything else. In most satanic and New Age organizations most followers only follow an organization for a very short time (weeks or months), and in unorganized online organizations people are often very superficial. I don't really see how that can amount to ritual killings and fun stuff like that.

[quote=Fist]The fact of the matter is that it is indeed ok to kill. If we accept the Satanic premise that man is an an animal like any other, and we accept the premise that it is ok to kill animals for our own survival, then we must accept the premise that it is ok to kill man. Does this logic elude you?


I do not believe in an objective moral, so how could I see killing as good or bad?

You are trying to get this to sound like the way of nature. Yes, you need to defend yourself and sometimes man has to go to war. But what the ONA speaks about is not defending oneself but trying to "help evolution on the way". That is not survival but Social Darwinism and that is bull. Social Darwinism is an unscientific misunderstanding of Darwin and evolution theory. It is as absurd as when Christians try to sell of Intelligent Design as science. ”it is ok to kill animals for our own survival, then we must accept the premise that it is ok to kill man” what kind of argument is that?. It dosn't make any sense. Yes, people fight and sometimes you need to remove or kill people. I know that. I will even confess that I would have many lives on my consciousness if I could kill people just by thinking about it. Societies also go to way and some kill of criminals. Nothing new, nothing specific satanic about that. Even the Bible talks about killing in way and peace. But no, we do not ”need” to kill people to help on evolution like the ONA and all the other Nazis think. Jews, black, homosexuals and other ”non-Aryans” are not belonging to what you could call ”lower races” in any scientific way. The race issue is bull. Social Darwinism and race theories are just another kind of ”pipedreams” or myths.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
If you cannot instinctively see the utility in killing some people who really deserve it than I cannot help you.


No problem, but I don't think we have the same definition of ”deserving” or "for the need of survival".

- Amina

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#5116 - 03/09/08 05:00 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Again, you tip your hand to show your white light credentials.

Might is right. Do you disagree?

Should we save drug addicts or simply allow them to overdose and die in the street?

Should we execute child molesters?

If a person steals from me do I have the right to kill them?

I wait with baited breath for the next installment of this nonsense....
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#5118 - 03/09/08 05:16 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Fist]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Fist
Might is right. Do you disagree?


No, he who has the power gets what he want. That is just facts. All your other statements about who you want to weed out is just wishfull thinking. You guys should be happy that the people with power don weed you out! I live in the would of sanity, rationality and science, not in the would of wishfull thinking and pseudoscience. I don't blame God, Satan or "the mud people" for my own shortcommings.

Denmark is more socialistic then the US. You can call us soft. But we have less crime, less poor people and less social problems then the UK and the US.

- Amina

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#5127 - 03/09/08 07:17 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Ok, I thought I made this simple. All I asked for were simple answers to simple questions. It seems to me that you are avoiding an answer lest you show your Wiccan roots. To wit:


Might is right. Do you disagree?

 Quote:
No, he who has the power gets what he want.


?

Ah, ok, is that a yes or a no?

Anyway...

Let's try this again:

Should we save drug addicts or simply allow them to overdose and die in the street?

Should we execute child molesters?

If a person steals from me do I have the right to kill them?

Simple questions really! A 'yes' or 'no' will do.

 Quote:
Denmark is more socialistic then the US. You can call us soft. But we have less crime, less poor people and less social problems then the UK and the US.


In the US, most of the crime is perpetrated by certain minorities - mostly blacks and hispanics. I think if you look you will find that most of serious crime in Denmark (like rape and murder) are perpetrated by Muslim immigrants. Do you disagree? And what benefit does Denmark get from hosting these people? Is there are reason you allow them to suckle at the teat of your Welfare State?
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#5150 - 03/09/08 09:53 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Sordid Archetype Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Long Island, NY
 Originally Posted By: Amina
You can call us soft. But we have less crime, less poor people and less social problems then the UK and the US.

You also have less of a population. Try that again once your country has picked up a few extra millions more.
_________________________
The only god I believe in is me. . .

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#5152 - 03/09/08 10:41 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Jeseth Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 91
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: Amina
8. Conclusion
If a term includes everything, it covers nothing. To use a particular term, the term must be defined in such a way that correct and incorrect use can be determined. This means that the term must be reasonably clearly defined, and if the term has multiple meanings, each meaning must be defined independently of the other meanings. Using definitions such as “anyone that calls himself a Satanist is a Satanist” or “anything called Satanism is Satanism” are not valid definitions, because they are both unclear, self-contradictory and without content.

If an individual wants to meaningfully declare himself or herself a Satanist, the person must decide on a specific meaning of the term. It is possible for the Satanist to respect other uses, but he or she can hardly consider other definitions to be equals or included in his or her own definition, even if they use the same denomination.

I agree with your conclusion to an extent, but I don't believe an individual can "decide on a specific meaning" for Satanism. The world already has a meaning.

Anton LaVey gave us the modern definition for Satanism. You are either a Satanist - by that definition - or you're not. If you still choose to refer to yourself as a Satanist, no one will stop you from doing it, but it doesn't change the fact that you're not a Satanist.

I'll rarely enter into voluntary debates with people who use the term wrongly, though. Why waste the time and energy?
_________________________
"Life is of no value but as it brings us gratifications."
— Thomas Jefferson

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#5156 - 03/09/08 11:08 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Sordid Archetype Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Long Island, NY
 Quote:
If you think my way of using logic is wrong then please enlighten me. Tell me how my discarded definitions would make more sense then the definitions I *do* use.

Perhaps there is a barrier of proper linguistics here, because I never spoke against your use of "logic." What I did speak against however was your rather forceful presumptuousness. Maybe you don't mean to, but you come off with a bit of an overbearing attitude. The way in which your posts are written seem to imply that you simply are here to correct all of those far less than you. In an environment where many will consider themselves "gods" I can't possibly see the end results being very well off.
Unlike the tone of your post, I will not sit here and bother to tell you how to use your own definitions. Do with them as you wish.

Since you are quite interested in the appropriate use of words, I would like you to consider this however: Words themselves are a man-made method of communicating abstract concepts to other men. In order for this to work, both men involved in a discussion must have the same understanding for the words being used in order for any proper transfer of concept to be performed. If one man thinks that "red" is a colour, while another thinks "red" is an animal, there will be a great difficulty in one understanding anything the other is speaking about. Likewise, if 100 people believe Satanism to be one thing, and 1 person believes it to be something entirely different, then chances are the 1 person is wrong. Not because what everyone else thinks must be right, but because when you are trying to use a medium that is supposed to transfer ideas among a mass of people and the mass of people have all agreed upon how they will transfer their ideas, simply using a conflicting definition base would completely hinder the purpose of the medium in the first place (which is communicating with those others who have already established a functional base).


 Quote:
please tell me how you define satanism in your own life and how you would define satanism if you had to write a school paper or a book for non satanists


why would I have to write any material for anyone, about Satanism or anything else? The truth of the matter is that I do not HAVE to do anything that I do not wish. Generally, I do not speak of Satanism to those who are not. The reason being, why should I? What am I gaining from it? I really only perform actions because I am motivated to do so, and if I am not gaining anything from it, then my motivation is not likely to be strong.

However, for sake of argument, you wish me to define MY Satanism for you? I believe that Satanism is not something that you can necessarily put a curbed definition or summary to. There are volumes of texts that speak about the various ins-and-outs of many "satanic" philosophies that compose Satanism's core. I'm sure you don't want anything so specific however, just enough for one to make a rather general distinction between other "words", so I will explain it as this:

To ME, Satanism is a religious structure that an individual may elicit to aid himself in his transcendental quest of personal excellence. It utilizes esoteric means to accomplish personal goals, whether or not the ideologies are accepted by the "collective virtue," and maintains the precepts of a Darwinist view (the strong shall inherit...) The strongest keystone for Satanism is that an individual may become the construct for his own moral and creative base, and hence "become a god" in doing so.


This, of course, is in no way comprehensive, but I'm sure it will be enough for now.
_________________________
The only god I believe in is me. . .

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#5157 - 03/09/08 11:11 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Jeseth]
Isaak w shipley Offline
member


Registered: 03/06/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Tenneessee
dig the quote jeseth jefferson is the nam all of our 4 fatherz
understood life,gratification,acceptence of challengrs,rebelz we are ,rebelz will be , I do not define myself as satanic,just a person of spirit of flesh,of divine,using elementz to heal and
strenthen. i do not say satanic because of taboos, like christianz who wont reconize fucing in their dictionary.
I share respect for all people,religinz cultures,the problem is people do nott give the same respect.

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#5181 - 03/10/08 05:00 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Fist]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Fist
Might is right. Do you disagree?


I agree when you view it as a fact, but I disagree if you view it on a more objective level. Yes, if you have the power to do so you can kill anyone you like and rewrite history. But that do not make the Nazis understanding of Darwin and evolution scientific correct, and it does not make me agree on there views. The Christians are the majority today and they have the power to do what ever they like to including using atom bombs to kill off all life on the planet earth. But does that make me convert to Christianity, "see the light" or accept it if Christians banned Satanism, science, humanism, homosexuality, womens rights, abortion etc.? Hell no! I am very sure that you would have to agree with me on this point. If not, you would not be on a satanic forum...

 Originally Posted By: Fist

Should we save drug addicts or simply allow them to overdose and die in the street?
Should we execute child molesters?
If a person steals from me do I have the right to kill them?


Sorry, but it is not that simple. I know that you guys gust wants to kill off as many people as possible, but my view is on society and the victims. You want to kill off all child molesters? I can see why you would want to kill off some of them, but I see some serious problem with just killing off all of them. I will list a few:

1) Most sexual child abuse is done by close relatives, most often an uncle or a stepfather. The molester should of cause be punished, but in most cases killing the abuser would hurt the child more then the abuse itself.

2) The time of the Satanic Panic gave us a lessen: some cases of
alleged sexual abuse are are false, and it is often almost impossible to prove what happened. It is hard to change a wrongful sentence if the person is dead.

3) Hard sentences do not keep people from committing crimes. They do not think about the chance of getting caught and punished when they do the crime. Thoughts about getting caught usually come up only after the crime, an the possibility of death sentences would probably make more sexual abuser kill the victim to hide the crime.

4) Most of the people who commit child abuse where abused as children themselves. This is no excuse, but it gives society the possibility to do something BEFORE a new child is abused. My focus is on keeping children from harm, not on killing as many as possible.

Killing criminals could be be the sensible thing to do, and I personally would feel like killing of those who tried to abuse my own kids. But if your focus is on a peaceful society or on the victims, then other ways of dealing with criminality is more obvious. Killing off a two year old child because he tries to take a bit of your apple would be insane.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
most of the crime is perpetrated by certain minorities - mostly blacks and hispanics.


Most bluecollar crime is perpetrated by the undereducated and poor. Most whitecollar crime is probably committed by white people. If you kill of all the poor minority people you will just get the same amount of crime from a new lover class of undereducated and poor white people.

Bottom line: you hate the "mud people" and want to kill us all of. You can speak as mush as you like about "what should be done", and "how it is the right and good thing to do", but I don't buy your explanation about think about the welfare of society.

- Amina

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#5182 - 03/10/08 05:06 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Jeseth]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Jeseth
I agree with your conclusion to an extent, but I don't believe an individual can "decide on a specific meaning" for Satanism. The world already has a meaning.


If you look how the word is used it is used to cover may kinds of phenomena and groups. If all people on the planet earth voted on a definition, the Christian definition would be voted in. LaVey was the inventor of modern Satanism, but not the first one to define Satanism, and even when you look at those who say they follow the teachings of LaVey differ on how they read him. Fact is: today we have a lot of very different groups claiming the title of Satanism. This is hard to ignore.

- Amina

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#5184 - 03/10/08 05:33 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Sordid Archetype]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Sordid Archetype
Maybe you don't mean to, but you come off with a bit of an overbearing attitude. The way in which your posts are written seem to imply that you simply are here to correct all of those far less than you.


I am sorry about that. That was not my intention. Maybe it looked like that because my first encounter with any users of the board was in the form of very angry and personal attacks from a girl, and because I have tried to keep the text short without too many discussions. I it also a bit hard for me to express myself in English. I usually use a lot of words and nuances when I write in danish but I am not able to do so in English.

 Originally Posted By: Sordid Archetype
Since you are quite interested in the appropriate use of words, I would like you to consider this however: Words themselves are a man-made method of communicating abstract concepts to other men. In order for this to work, both men involved in a discussion must have the same understanding for the words being used in order for any proper transfer of concept to be performed. If one man thinks that "red" is a colour, while another thinks "red" is an animal, there will be a great difficulty in one understanding anything the other is speaking about.


And that is exactly what the text is trying to deal with in the first part of the text. I am sorry if this isn't obvious.

 Originally Posted By: Sordid Archetype
Likewise, if 100 people believe Satanism to be one thing, and 1 person believes it to be something entirely different, then chances are the 1 person is wrong. Not because what everyone else thinks must be right, but because when you are trying to use a medium that is supposed to transfer ideas among a mass of people and the mass of people have all agreed upon how they will transfer their ideas, simply using a conflicting definition base would completely hinder the purpose of the medium in the first place (which is communicating with those others who have already established a functional base).


I agree, but the use of words DO change, and people DO use words like "Satanism", "Christianity", "faith" etc. in very subjective ways. Ask ten satanists, and you would probably get ten more or less different explanations. Unless we want to deal with ”heretics” we have to accept this.

When dealing with phenomenas like Satanism you also have to consider the reality behind the word. The most used definition of Satanism is the Christian one, but most people who claim to be satanists use another definition of the word. Because of this satanists, Christians ans academics have to deal with at least two definitions of Satanism if they want to say anything about real live satanists out in the real world.

 Originally Posted By: Sordid Archetype
why would I have to write any material for anyone, about satanism or anything else? The truth of the matter is that I do not HAVE to do anything that I do not wish.


I agree, but I was a bit tiered of people who complained about what I had written without giving it a go themselves. It is not hard to criticize, but it is a bit harder to come up with something of your own.

 Originally Posted By: Sordid Archetype
To ME, satanism is a religious structure that an individual may elicit to aid himself in his transcendental quest of personal excellence. It utilizes esoteric means to accomplish personal goals, whether or not the ideologies are accepted by the "collective virtue," and maintains the precepts of a Darwinist view (the strong shall inherit...) The strongest keystone for satanism is that an individual may become the construct for his own moral and creative base, and hence "become a god" in doing so.


That is a nice personal definition. Thank you. I am sure you would be able to expand it, and it is clear that your personal definition make you able to decide if something is included in your definition of Satanism or if it is not. On the other hand, I am sure that we can agree that your definitions isn't universal, and that an academic/objective definition would have to deal with the most common beliefs in the big mish-mash called Satanism.

All said, I guess we are agreeing?

- Amina

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#5189 - 03/10/08 07:48 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Sordid Archetype Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Long Island, NY
 Quote:
All said, I guess we are agreeing?

True. \:\)

There seems to be quite a few interpretations of what Satanism is. Though I'm sure most of these definitions are drawn between various cultures and subcultures (i.e. christians generally have one similar view whereas the people on this board have another generally similar view).

What can you do, right?
_________________________
The only god I believe in is me. . .

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#5208 - 03/10/08 02:44 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
Some definitions from Dictionary.com:
Sa·tan·ism:
–noun
- The worship of Satan or the powers of evil
- A travesty of Christian rites in which Satan is worshiped
- A belief in and reverence for devils, especially Satan

These definitions apply to Traditional Satanism, or the Christian stereotype of literal devil worship.


For the definition of Modern Satanism started by LaVey in the 1960s (and taken on by many other groups besides LaVeyan Satanists), I would like to propose the following definition:

Sa·tan·ism:
–noun
.......
- (Usage from 1960s)
A philosophy of life (often incorporating occult and ritualistic elements) which rejects traditional Judeo-Christian values, while stressing realism, the empowerment of the individual, and life-affirming ideals, symbolised by Satan.

This definition seems broad enough to encapsulate most of today's forms of Modern Satanism.


So if we add this to the dictionary definition of Satanism as a legitimate post-1960s usage of the term - we can now unpack the word 'Satanism' into three meanings:

(1) The Christian stereotype of 'devil worship', literal belief in and worship of the Christian devil as understood by church orthodoxy (nonexistent, but popular usage is still a significant (mis-)definition)

(2) Traditional Satanism - with the best definition: 'A belief in and reverence for devils, especially Satan', stressing that this involves a literal theistic belief system - belief in a god or gods (even if these are called Satan or demons).
This does involve a belief in a being called Satan and worship of such a being - but Satan is understood very differently here than in Christianity, allowing him to be seen as a positive figure to worship.

(3) Modern Satanism (as defined above)
As with Traditional Satanism, 'Satan' is not the literal Christian devil, but a completely different beast.
As I defined it (correct my definition if you will), the modern definition of Satan is as a symbol of life-affirming values.
There may be a metaphysical or occult aspect to Satan, but this is in the context of a philosophy of life which affirms the individual.

Completely ignoring the retarded definitions of LaVeyan fundamentalists (who insist that ONLY LaVeyans can be Satanists), we now have three main definitions of Satanism.
(Are there any more valid ones?)

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#5226 - 03/10/08 08:24 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"It could be about translation, but I think it is more about education? "

Do Not question my educational background. I have no need to prove to you how smart I am or which degrees I have or what I am doing with my life now.

I questioned your methods, not your education, but your lack of practical hands on knowledge.


"And? You can still identify many kinds of Satanism, and the individual satanist have to choose his kind of Satanism, if he wants to be able to *explain* what his beliefs are about. You need to have a definition of Satanism if you want to say anything sensible about Satanism."

If you had spent anytime here reading the boards and posts verses just posting your ideas about that which you think we dont know. YOU would have found that this was already covered. The members here are usally intellgent, rational, and think about the things they post. They take an active role in their beliefs and know who they are and what makes them tick.

They and I dont need some big defining statement about what Satanism is. We know what it is. If it has to be explained to you, you are not a Satanist. True Satanists are born, not made, not converted. Its just something that was inside all along.

ONA, try google.

"But I have an issue whit the "friends" I choose. I do not want to take the blame for others just because they claim to be satanists."

A friend is a friend.
An idiot is an idiot.
Take the time to know people and learn the difference.

Morgan

Enjoy your time here, go read the previous posts on all the different boards.
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#5230 - 03/10/08 08:32 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"No I have not. I am not the only danish satanist who have done so for more then ten years and no one have ever had any harm come to them. A few have had to step back a bit because of work, but no one have had any real trouble."

Then that is luck, like I said when someone slips something under your door, or is waiting for you outside your house, don't say you were not warned.

Wasn't the son of some famous artist killed by a muslim for just making a movie about mohammad in denmark last year?

The public image of Satanism is beyond tv now. With the internet, U-tube, cable access channels, any idiot with a video camera can get his views on tv.

Back with Lavey, there was no cable, no internet, no cell phones, no u-tube. There was just maybe less than 10 channels, he had a captive audience.

"My point was that you need to talk about Satanism in the plural. The is not one Satanism but many satanisms"

Damn, you should really read a board before you post. You should read what people say. This is well know here, and already said by me and others.

Oh, and dont play that I'm waiting game with me. I have a life outside the internet and will reply to anything you say when I get a chance.

Morgan

Enjoy...............
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#5388 - 03/12/08 02:03 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Do Not question my educational background.


I am not calling you uneducated or stupid. The remark about education is aimed at the different values and ways of viewing and explaining. When you look at psychology, sociology, philosophy and so on you can identify different schools. I most cases you will see a difference between European and American schools. This is one way to look at differences in education. Another is when you view at differences in the way different disciplines deals with topics. My text is influenced by European philosophy and sociology.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
"And? You can still identify many kinds of satanism, and the individual satanist have to choose his kind of satanism, if he wants to be able to *explain* what his beliefs are about. You need to have a definition of satanism if you want to say anything sensible about satanism."


Yes, I am still saying that. I have met people on this board who viwe ONA as the true kind of Satanism and racial way as the highest aim of ONA and Satanism. I think most would agree that this is not the most common explanation of Satanism. This is a very specific kind of Satanism, and yes, I think we need to deal with different kinds of Satanism if we want to say anything besides useless stuff like "Ever satanist have his personal opinion, so we cant't really say anything about anything, and we cant explain what Satanism is and what it isn't"

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
If you had spent anytime here reading the boards and posts verses just posting your ideas about that which you think we dont know. YOU would have found that this was already covered. The members here are usally intellgent, rational, and think about the things they post. They take an active role in their beliefs and know who they are and what makes them tick.


The text was written years ago and only translated lately. I wrote that. It would be paranoid to think that it was aimed at you or this board. I am very happy to know that I found the only satanic board in the would with 100% reflected and mature satanist who do not need to think more about how to define Satanism, or if Satanism is plural or singular.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
They and I dont need some big defining statement about what Satanism is. We know what it is. If it has to be explained to you, you are not a Satanist. True Satanists are born, not made, not converted. Its just something that was inside all along.


I have a question: Did you even read the text and if you did, did you read the whole text? Am I defining what Satanism is and what it isn't? No, I think not. I am making some reflections about different definitions you can find out there - like Christian definitions, academic definitions, definitions used by some organizations or other organizations and so on. Evey definition I use is used out in the real world. You can go as the christians. They will tell you that Satanism is about worshipping the devil. You can ask the Church of Satan. They will tell you that the only true Satanism is the one invented by LaVey, and that they are the only ones who are keeping his legacy. Other groups will tell you something different. I think I most have talked to more then 1.000 satanists over the years, and every satanist have his own definition on one hand, and is part of more general trends on the other (like ateistic, LaVeyan, theistic). Do you see Satanism as singular? I don't believe that, onles you are a defender of the idea of "one true Satanism".

- Amina

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#5390 - 03/12/08 02:36 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Then that is luck, like I said when someone slips something under your door, or is waiting for you outside your house, don't say you were not warned.


I am no expert on the US, but I have an education that include sociological, political, historical and religious aspect of the US. We also view TV news and read about what happens in the US. When did you last read a book on Denmark or see a news story about the country? Denmark is different from the US in may ways. It is called one of the most secularized countries in the would. The Danish kind of Christianity is called "Belonging without believing" by some sociologists.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Wasn't the son of some famous artist killed by a muslim for just making a movie about mohammad in denmark last year?


Nope, I think this was in the Netherlands. We had a newspaper publish pictures of Muhammed and that offended a lot of muslims - but no one in Denmark got killed. Your president called it stupid to offend other peoples beliefs, but most Danes think it is okay to offend religion in the name of free speech.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
The public image of Satanism is beyond tv now. With the internet, U-tube, cable access channels, any idiot with a video camera can get his views on tv.


Yes, that is the case in the US but not in Europe. In Denmark we are only 6 million people. We do not have all those TV networks, Magazines and newspapers you guys have. We only have two TV channels that all Danes are able to see. I made around 30 interviews in ten years. Most of them in national media. In the same time only about tree other satanists made more then two interviews. In Denmark we have only had four satanic organizations in the last ten years. The tree of them lasted under a year and between them the organized like 5 % of alle the organized satanic orgs. in Denmark. This is how it is in Denmark and more or less how it is in other small countries - the way satanists present Satanism do matter and we are able to change the way the media talk about Satanism. It is very different in the US, yes, I know that, and I know that you don't have the same posibilities. On the other hand - I do get American google alerts from online media on Satanism - more then 100 a month - and I do see changes and some organizations popping up more then others. Church of Satan and other orgs. do influence the way the media deals with the topic.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Back with Lavey, there was no cable, no internet, no cell phones, no u-tube. There was just maybe less than 10 channels, he had a captive audience.


And many small European countries are still like that...Denmark only have two national channels that all Danes are able to view and only like 10 national newspapers. It isn't hard to get more viability in Denmark then LaVey had in the US.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Damn, you should really read a board before you post. You should read what people say. This is well know here, and already said by me and others.


As far as I know (please correct me if I am wrong) this board is associated with satanists who think the Church of Satan got it all wrong and are misusing LaVeys legacy. The board is also a forum used by different kinds of satanists - some belonging to orgs., som satanists are old, some are new. On this kind of board that part of the argument isn't telling anyone anything new, but that would not be the case in other less plural boards. On this board plurality of Satanism has to be viewed as something positive.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Oh, and dont play that I'm waiting game with me. I have a life outside the internet and will reply to anything you say when I get a chance.


Look who I wrote it to - it was aimed at an specific person because of the way she attacked me. If someone calls you a lowlife and criticizes your life and efforts it is often interesting to see where they themselves are coming from.

- Amina

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#5391 - 03/12/08 02:48 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Meq]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Mequa
Completely ignoring the retarded definitions of LaVeyan fundamentalists (who insist that ONLY LaVeyans can be Satanists), we now have three main definitions of Satanism.
(Are there any more valid ones?)


When Satanism in viwed from an objective point of view, focused on the most common ways of using the term, I would agree on your definitions as valid.

In my article I also tried to discuss some of the common but less sensible ways of defining Satanism, and I also tried to make room for more nuanced and personal definitions. When you look at the guys who see racial war as the main focus of a theistic Satanism a more nuanced definition of Satanism would have to view his definition as separate from, let's say the teistic satanic groups like The Temple of Set in the old times when they where still viewing themselves as satanists, or from anti-racist groups within Satanism (Atheist as well as theistic).

Every organization and every satanists has is or her own definition of Satanism. Some definitions are inclusive and include everything from Buddhism to Hitler, some are less inclusive and only related to LaVey or a nother person or org. Some personal kinds of Satanism are well thought trough, other satanists found Satanism two days ago and are still confused abut what to believe.

- Amina

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#5420 - 03/12/08 08:14 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"The text was written years ago and only translated lately. I wrote that. It would be paranoid to think that it was aimed at you or this board. I am very happy to know that I found the only satanic board in the would with 100% reflected and mature satanist who do not need to think more about how to define Satanism, or if Satanism is plural or singular."

AS I said, you just cut and pasted your essay without exploring the board. Thank you for admitting to it. I did not think it was aimed at this board, just poorly aimed in general. I will ignor your sarcasm.

I just find it kinda sad that you have spent at least 10 years collecting articles about Satanism written by non-satanist. How can a person who is not a satanist give an explantion in the type of general, specific, scientific view if they dont understand first hand? Their personal bias will always cloud their view on the topic. If you have spoken to thousands, then why did it take you so long to find this place, and why did no one ever hear about you?

"Do you see Satanism as singular? I don't believe that, onles you are a defender of the idea of "one true Satanism". "

Okay, there is one true idea or archtype. After that you have different views, ideas, beliefs, groups, and cultures. It starts with one thing, and grows from there. In regards to the one thing being, the one idea, pick a different historical culture. Read over its religious texts, stories, its cultural ideas, and you will see that they all have the "man in black" in common no matter what name they use.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#5423 - 03/12/08 08:20 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
okay, you have 6 million people in your whole country. I have more than that just in the city where I live.

So in short you come from a small place that is just perfect to live in....

YOu admitting to just posting your essay without reading any of the posting on the boards, end of story.

AS I said, the people here are bright, and different. Something you have recently learned.

I am really beginning to believe, and I hope, it is just a matter of you not understanding english well and your translation being a little off.

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#5439 - 03/12/08 09:32 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Morgan]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
okay, you have 6 million people in your whole country. I have more than that just in the city where I live.


I don't mean any disrespect or anything, but is this relevant to the topic? Because to me, it just seems like a penis measuring contest there. It doesn't really matter how big a country is to be honest. What matters is what the country and the inhabitants are like as a whole. Although I've never visited Denmark, I can imagine it to be a pleasant place to visit and/or live, of which you've already acknowledged.

Although, your closing statement is plausible and not insulting. Seems the opening statement is though.

Sorry if I've offended. I just thought I'd share my views on this particular part of the argument.

Now concerning the topic of "One or more forms of Satanism", I have to agree with the theory of an archetype spawning other variants. After joining this forum, I've learned that there is more than one form of Satanism, rather than LaVeyan Satanism being the "one and only" form. And as we all know, whichever form you subscribe to is the choice of the individuals.

Although, I find Theistic Satanism beside the point, as Satanism is the opposite of Christianity (since Satan was the opposing force in the bible), so Satan to me just seems to be just a name to represent the opposite of the spiritual beliefs of Christianity and other religions. Worshipping Satan as a deity just seems like another form of Christianity to me.

But that's just my opinion.

I'm not trying to bash anyone else's personal beliefs and/or chosen paths. That's your choice and preference, and that's fine with me, since you aren't pushing it down my throat. That's just how I view Theistic Satanism.
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#5554 - 03/13/08 04:25 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
okay, you have 6 million people in your whole country. I have more than that just in the city where I live.


Yes, and with that knowledge you should be able to form some kind of idea about some of the differences between the US and Denmark. The point was, that the way satanists act in in the media and on the internet actually does a difference in a small country. Scroll up and see what you said about the media, abut me being lucky because I hadn't been hurt by kooks and so on.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
YOu admitting to just posting your essay without reading any of the posting on the boards, end of story.
AS I said, the people here are bright, and different. Something you have recently learned.


I went on the internet when LaVey was still alive. Maybe this forum is very different from any other satanic forum - who knows. I would be very surprised if this was the case. The only real surprise I have had has to do with the number of Nazis and racists you have on the board. Congratulations - you actually surprised me with those.

When I posted the text, I also explained that it was an old text and that it had been translated from Danish. With that in mind, it is paranoid to accuse me of making and posting the text as an attack on you or any of the users on this board. I see that you agree with me on some of the ideas, but make a point of "explaining" how I am totally off because I'm telling you stuff that you already know. Like duh! - The text was not written with you in mind, and if some of the points is old hat, then those points are aimed at other people to whom they are new. Point being: if we agree on some points, then there is no need to feel offended by this. If you have visited other board I am sure you have seen lots of people with opinions different from both mine and your. Just visit the one and only Church of Satan if you need prof.

Bright? Sure, but you also have your share of loons, loosers, geniuses, oldtimers and neewbees as any other forum. I also see oldtimers complaining about too many bitch fights.

- Amina


Edited by Amina (03/13/08 04:34 PM)

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#5557 - 03/13/08 04:45 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: DistroyA]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: DistroyA
I don't mean any disrespect or anything, but is this relevant to the topic? Because to me, it just seems like a penis measuring contest there. It doesn't really matter how big a country is to be honest.


If you look at earlier posts in this topic some of the discussion is about how normal people view Satanism, what satanists can do to change it, if one needs to care about public opinion and if I should be scared to pieces or feel like a dumbass because I'm public and try to do something. This discussion was started mainly because I said that it is stupid to align yourself with groups within Satanism who promotes human sacrifice (and I could add: racial war and/or child abuse), unless you actually support these ideas. In Denmark it would be really stupid, but I am getting almost convinced that it dos not make any difference in the US, and that most don't mind the connection anyway.

- Amina

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#5668 - 03/14/08 08:40 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Basically, you live in a small country, thats all nice and sweet.
I get it, big fish, little pond.

"I went on the internet when LaVey was still alive. Maybe this forum is very different from any other satanic forum - who knows. I would be very surprised if this was the case. The only real surprise I have had has to do with the number of Nazis and racists you have on the board. Congratulations - you actually surprised me with those."

Oh, okay, I went online before the internet was main stream, before al gore invented it, with the bullinboards systems back in 1986/87. That was back when I worked for the government.

How can you say maybe this forum is different than the other satanist sites. You previously explained how you interviewed thousand of satanist, yet you dont know how this site compares with any other satanic site????

This forum is different, and has been around for years.
We dont have any more nazis or racists than other places. Truthfully, most of us hate all stupid people equally. We dont hide our dislikes for idiots, hell I like to bar-b que them.

"With that in mind, it is paranoid to accuse me of making and posting the text as an attack on you or any of the users on this board."

Once again, I didn't attack you. Ask anyone here, if I was going to attack you, believe me, you would know.

"I also see oldtimers complaining about too many bitch fights."

You have to be kidding me, you are here a week and you think you know who the oldtimers are?? You have no clue.

"The text was not written with you in mind, and if some of the points is old hat, then those points are aimed at other people to whom they are new."

My point was that some of your non satanic sourse are wrong, and that people who are not satanic writing on satanic issues will cloud the issue with their personal bias.....

You know what, I dont care anymore. You dont get it.
Fuck the language difference, the translataion problems, the fact that you just posted that here without even looking over the site.

I dont care, I dont have time to talk to you and play this game anymore.

whatever, next..............

Morg
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#5716 - 03/15/08 09:56 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
How can you say maybe this forum is different than the other satanist sites. You previously explained how you interviewed thousand of satanist, yet you dont know how this site compares with any other satanic site????


I was more or less being sarcastic, more or less trying to work with the possibility that you where right about this board being so different. And no, I have not interviewed satanists. I explained that I had talked to a lot of different satanists over the years. I joined the CoS before LaVey died and used to hang out at Lestats place before The600Club and the official Church of Satan site was made. I left the CoS a few years later at the same time as The600Club was made and others left the CoS too.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
You have to be kidding me, you are here a week and you think you know who the oldtimers are?? You have no clue.


I am able to see when they registered and how many posts they have posted to the board. Right?

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
My point was that some of your non satanic sourse are wrong, and that people who are not satanic writing on satanic issues will cloud the issue with their personal bias.....


I DO have a personal bias. My bias is to view the Satanism of satanists who have given thought to there Satanism as more serious then the Satanism of confused teens who found Satanism yesterday, and who think they are masters of Satanism because they saw "The Omen" two times last week. I also view the Satanism of people who are able to integrate there real life and there satanic online life as more serious then people who only ascribe to Satanism when no one can make them stick up to there beliefs or point out that they say one think but act in a totally different way in real life. I am not saying that satanists should be public, but I am tiered of 13 year old kids who talk about "killing all the Christians" without being able to defend themselves against the kid next door, and without having the gots to tell his mother that they don't want to go to church this Sunday. And yes, i am also tiered of racists or theists who talk about racial war or human sacrifice online but have Jewish or Christian friends and are unable to take up a knife and kill another human being or even a rabbit for dinner. I am very much against violence when it is used without reason, but I am almost more against people who lie to themselves and others by setting standards without being able to act accordingly. They are not "evil satanists", they are just silly kids who try to pose as big bad boys.

Another thing about bias: Someone called me an Wiccan and you say that I am not a satanist, and I more or less get the feeling that you think I would never be one. I have been a satanist for 15 years or so, and I find it a bit amusing that you are willing to view Satanism as differentiated and plural, but that this does not include me. Very, very amusing.

You don't want to "play" anymore so I am not going to ask for your definition of Satanism or how your definition can include more or less anyone who call themselves satanists but exclude me. I will also refrain from pointing to the fact that I am rater sure that you don't know much about my beliefs, if I am theistic or atheistic, an occultism or a rationalist. But I *will* put it down as more or less proving at least one of my points: Every satanist has his or her personal definition of what Satanism include and what it exclude.

- Amina

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#5732 - 03/15/08 05:24 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"I joined the CoS before LaVey died and used to hang out at Lestats place"

That explains everything.

"you say that I am not a satanist"

Nope, never said that. Go reread things.

"you don't know much about my beliefs"

I dont care about your beliefs, but you seems to be ab atheistic rationalist with wiccan tendencies.

Morg

Whatever, I was bored at wwork....
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#5740 - 03/15/08 08:01 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Morgan]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
I am able to see when they registered and how many posts they have posted to the board. Right?


This version of the forum has only been around for about the last year.

Previous versions of the forum go back years and years so no you are not right.

Otherthan that I'm keeping out of this particular discussion.

ZephyrGirl
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#5743 - 03/15/08 08:31 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Mercury_Templar Offline
93 93/93
member


Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Cabarita, Vic, Australia
This is true - I think I have been a member for about seven or eight years.

M.'.T.'.
_________________________
ATEH
MALKUTH
VE-GEBURAH
VE-GEDULAH
LE-OLAM
AMEN

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#5762 - 03/16/08 03:52 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
I dont care about your beliefs, but you seems to be ab atheistic rationalist with wiccan tendencies.


I do not know much about the Wicca, but as far as I know they are theistic, they are very much into magic, they are very spiritual, they are religious, they believe in an objective morality and they think they are part of a very old religion. This is more or less the opposite of rationalistic, atheistic, LaVeyan Satanism. Byt yes, Wicca and the CoS share one thing: they try to deal with the public, and claim to support law and order.

And yes, of cause - I am only able to see who joined on the latest version of the board, not the original board or any other versions. That is true.

- Amina

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#5806 - 03/17/08 09:01 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
This thread has drug on four pages and has yielded a lot of heat and little light. Remember, this board is used by many students of the LHP and all of these threads should be considered to be at least somewhat instructional.

Amina,

The problem 'we' are having is that you seem to be trying to redefine Satanism to be whatever you want it to be. It is 'our' assertion that you are left-liberal white lighter with an affinity for the Satanic aesthetic. In and of it's self, that is fine. However, please do not call it Satanism.

But, in the interest of clearing the air could you please list three personal beliefs that you consider Satanic?

Example:

1. The needs, wants, and desires of the individual trump those of the collective.

2. If someone wrongs me I have the right to return the favor ten fold to include killing them (Lex Talionis).

3. Stupid people should be allowed to die. Drug overdoses and suicides should be allowed to run their natural course.

These are just a few mine....
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#5832 - 03/17/08 05:30 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
cpboeg Offline
lurker


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 1
I find everything you write quite absurd. First and foremost, SATAN does not obide the law and does not wish for acceptance from the crowd.

satan the accuser and opposer, the devil the destroyer, fan/fianndin the enemy, etc, DO NOT cooperate, compromise or accept terms laid upon them from people. That is christian behaviour, the "flock mentality" you laveyan people are so fond of hating, yet so good at using.

I am interested, although i am aware that this is laveyan ground, how you legitimize your use of the word "Satanism", when your definition clarifies beyond doubt that you do not consider the word "satan"s meaning in your definition, do not believe in any form of entity which you would call satan, do not idolize aforesaid entities attributes and do not attempt to evolve in the direction of the entity.

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#5838 - 03/17/08 08:11 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: cpboeg]
97and107 Offline
member


Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 268
Loc: New Mexico
 Originally Posted By: cpboeg
I find everything you write quite absurd. First and foremost, SATAN does not obide the law and does not wish for acceptance from the crowd.

satan the accuser and opposer, the devil the destroyer, fan/fianndin the enemy, etc, DO NOT cooperate, compromise or accept terms laid upon them from people. That is christian behaviour, the "flock mentality" you laveyan people are so fond of hating, yet so good at using.

I am interested, although i am aware that this is laveyan ground, how you legitimize your use of the word "satanism", when your definition clarifies beyond doubt that you do not consider the word "satan"s meaning in your definition, do not believe in any form of entity which you would call satan, do not idolize aforesaid entities attributes and do not attempt to evolve in the direction of the entity.


Agreed, with one slight exception, Satanists can a do cooperate with each other and can accept "orders" just as well as the next person to further their goals, we are not wild animals...only in bed I hope and in the best natural sense of survival of the fittest...

But yeah CoS can go fuck off and die for all I care, I really do not give a shit about them or their flunkies...pretty pathetic actually. Though I do understand the need for belonging, it's only human as we are societal animals. Still, if you can't be a loner why be a Satanist? Absolutely the worst position you cna put yourself in if you need people so badly you want to fork out a hundred dollars for a membership to some useless club with bad philosophy....lol

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#5995 - 03/20/08 12:29 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Fist]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Fist
The problem 'we' are having is that you seem to be trying to redefine Satanism to be whatever you want it to be.


As far as I can see you are not a spokesperson of this community but probably one of the local loons. This will be my last replay to you.

No, I don't think "you" (plural) are having a problem with this. As far as I can see the users of this board are already using the word Satanism in a lot of very different ways. I also think most users would agree that you are able to find many different kinds of groups who claim to be satanic. I said something "mean" abut ONA and that is what is pissing you off. Fact is: anyone can use the word any way they want to - but I am happy to see that you are agreeing to at least a fem points in my text: some definitions are better then others, and often "different kinds of Satanism" don't have much in common.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
But, in the interest of clearing the air could you please list three personal beliefs that you consider Satanic?


I think any definition of Satanism has to include some sort of explanation of the connection to Satan. My explanation has to do with some of the values traditionally connected to Satan like freedom, mans animal nature and instincts, the materialistic world, rebellion against authorities, individualism, the seven deadly sins, anti-religion, anti-spirituality and so on.

My personal definition of Satanism also include Atheism and rationalism as more or less the same thing, but I am not able to point to may specific satanic does and dont's and I will explain why by commenting on yours:

 Originally Posted By: Fist
1. The needs, wants, and desires of the individual trump those of the collective.


Yes and no. I view my needs, wants and desires as more impotent then the collective, but I do not view other peoples needs, wants and desires as somehow holy. If you joined Osama Bin Laden and wanted to blow up my neighborhood I would not view your personal desire as acceptable, just because you saw it as such. I believe in individualism as an value, but I am also aware that interest collide.

The collective aka. society is a group of individuals with more or less similar values who work together and who are willing to exchange some of there freedom for safety, pluming, postal service, renovation, laws insuring private property, health care, education and so on. When people act against society, society will act back and deal with transgression as criminal act, unmoral acts or terrorism.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
2. If someone wrongs me I have the right to return the favor ten fold to include killing them (Lex Talionis).


Speaking about ”rights” only make sense if you think some sort of god is keeping an score, or if you are trying to convince other people that you have the law or morality on your side. As I said, I am an ateist. I don't believe in a god given or objective morality. I view morality as relativistic. You want the right to kill people if they “wrongs you”. I feel I have the right to do what ever I want to, *including* irrational desires and the “right” to kill people even if they haven't “wronged” me in any way. Byt if we leave the world of make believe, dreams and wishful thinking we have to face reality. As you said “Might is right”. You want to be able to kill people based on subjective ideas about “wronging you”. That is nice, but you have to deal with society because society has the power to send you to jail. You can talk about your “rights” as much as you want to but that dones not change anything. Have you ever killed anyone? I guess not.

Me? I would like to do what ever I want to without having to face the law or the opinion of other people, and I can imagine a lot of situations where I would be able to kill without feeling any kind of remorse, but I know too much about human nature to want to disband society and the law.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
3. Stupid people should be allowed to die. Drug overdoses and suicides should be allowed to run their natural course.


Most people are stupid. If you lok at the US most are Christian and a lot of them believe in very stupid things like intelligent design, hell, UFOs, Noas Arch and so on. A lot of people also eat too much and/or smoke and/or have sex without a condom knowing that it can kill them. Yes, people are stupid, but most of the time it doesn't kill them (at least not right away). If you look at drug abuse and suicides I don't know if stupidity is the beast explanation, but every one has the ”right” to care or ignore who they want to, or to kill or stimulate themselves in any way they want to. I would be more then willing to give drugs or a loaded gun to people how I disliked and who wanted to kill themselves, but I would also be willing to try to save people who I loved. How should society act? Society should act in society's best interest. You don't need morality to figure this one out but a cost benefit analysis.

Bottom line: You believe in some sort of objective morality including “rights” and “worth”. I don't. I my world nothing have any worth except subjective worth and “rights” is something you have if you are able to force your values on other people, or if your “rights” are part of the society you live in. I am a ateist, a rationalist and a relativist with a specific set of acknowledged subjective values.

- Amina

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#5998 - 03/20/08 01:03 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: cpboeg]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: cpboeg
I find everything you write quite absurd. First and foremost, SATAN does not obide the law and does not wish for acceptance from the crowd.


I don't think you read my text, but who cares – this is your first post to the forum so you are probably a clone or something.

Satanism (in my personal view!) is about getting what you want and living life to the fullest. Satanism is not about handicapping yourself or sacrificing yourself because of imaginary moral ideals. If cooperating works, then satanists corporate. If it doesn't, then they don't. Acceptance of terms laid down by other people is sensible if you agree on those terms, if it will further your own interests to act as if you agree or if you are forced to act like you agree (for a time...). Satanists do not let themselves get killed as martyrs, and they do not want unneeded negative attention. Some satanists are happy to be secretive about there beliefs, others want to be able to have the same rights as members of other religious groups. Both groups would have a hard time if society believed them to be as dangerous as Islamic terrorists, but if you exclude insane Christian fundamentalists most people view satanists as odd by harmless. Face it, the investigation of the Satanic Panics disproved a subversive satanic conspiracy, if you look at the statistics most satanists are teens who soon move on to something different and the number of serious old time satanists of any kind is small. With ghetto crime, drug wars, terrorists, white trash and so on satanists is definitely one of society's lesser worries.

 Originally Posted By: cpboeg
I am interested, although i am aware that this is laveyan ground, how you legitimize your use of the word "satanism", when your definition clarifies beyond doubt that you do not consider the word "satan"s meaning in your definition, do not believe in any form of entity which you would call satan, do not idolize aforesaid entities attributes and do not attempt to evolve in the direction of the entity.


The short answer is: I agree with Wittgenstein not Plato when it comes to the meaning of words.

I'm a constructionist not an essentialist. Words (and gods) are human constructions and the meaning of words is defined by use. As stated in the text I view some definitions of Satanism as more sensible then others and I have a subjective definition, but the word does not have a meaning on its own.

- Amina

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#6005 - 03/20/08 01:28 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
Cpboeg she called you a clone. Thank you Professor Amina for the enlightening, yet terribly long drawn 4 page thesis on a well defined Satanism.

Amina did you cry in school when you got a bad grade? Cuz it feels like you are an over achiever. It's like your fighting with all your might to be right or correct in some way, even when most of the active forum members here strongly disagree with you on many points. This thread feels like a school.



Edited by LUCIFERIFIC (03/20/08 01:29 PM)
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#6223 - 03/23/08 01:00 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
Cpboeg she called you a clone. Thank you Professor Amina for the enlightening, yet terribly long drawn 4 page thesis on a well defined Satanism.

Amina did you cry in school when you got a bad grade? Cuz it feels like you are an over achiever. It's like your fighting with all your might to be right or correct in some way, even when most of the active forum members here strongly disagree with you on many points. This thread feels like a school.



This just begs the one question I've been thinking of for quite some time (this isn't aimed at you, my dearest Luciferific...);

Does it really matter whether there is one or more religions/ideologies that go under the name of "Satanism"? Some Satanists are traditional, and some are LaVeyan. The only difference being is that they share somewhat different belief systems in terms of worship. We're practically flying the same banner in some respects, but we just agree and disagree on different topics. Some believe that there may be a higher force than us human beings, and the rest believe we are the magic makers.

This debate could go on for an epoch. I dunno about the rest of the forum, but this topic is kinda giving me a headache now. But hey, that's my view point. I just don't see the point of going on and on and on...... you get my drift.
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#6234 - 03/23/08 05:24 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: DistroyA]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
It doesn't really seem like the debate has moved on in four pages. Largely, it seems, because members are reading something into Amina's first post that simply isn't there.

 Originally Posted By: Amina
If an individual wants to meaningfully declare himself or herself a Satanist, the person must decide on a specific meaning of the term. It is possible for the Satanist to respect other uses, but he or she can hardly consider other definitions to be equals or included in his or her own definition, even if they use the same denomination.

In other words, the word "Satanism" means different things to different people. Sometimes these meanings are mutually exclusive. Since no authority exists to establish exclusive rights to the word, each of us must take personal responsibility for its use. This is hardly controversial stuff, surely?

Stag

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#6350 - 03/25/08 07:52 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Sordid Archetype]
Zakary Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 75
To answer this simple question we must first ask ourselves 'who' or 'what' is 'satan'?
When we can define what 'satan' is... or what being a 'satan' is.... then you have an answer!

I suggest forgeting about attempting to distinguish between organisations that claim to be 'real satanists'.

These types are playing the mainsteam religion game in a new guise!
Don't forget... jesus was a satan to the jews, muhammad was a satan to the arabs at the time!
So who are you a satan to?

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#6513 - 03/27/08 10:06 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: DistroyA]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: DistroyA
 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
Cpboeg she called you a clone. Thank you Professor Amina for the enlightening, yet terribly long drawn 4 page thesis on a well defined Satanism.

Amina did you cry in school when you got a bad grade? Cuz it feels like you are an over achiever. It's like your fighting with all your might to be right or correct in some way, even when most of the active forum members here strongly disagree with you on many points. This thread feels like a school.




Does it really matter whether there is one or more religions/ideologies that go under the name of "Satanism"?


I know, who cares?

There's only one "satan." Even if we take a look at the great world religions and see that they are very different, they all have one thing in common - a devil: Rahu to Buddhism; Rudra to Hinduism; Shaitan to Islam... and so on. Even thoe these devils may have different names, they are all the same basic symbol representing the same basic thing: human nature, which these people finds vile.

Why fragment Satan? Who cares if one Satanist has a handful of outward practices and beliefs that may be differentfrom us? If Satanism is based on the Ego, than we will obviously have these differences... because we're not the same fucking people!

"He who has the power to define, has the ultimate power." Robert Anton Wilson.

I reserve the right to define my own words, thoughts, beliefs, opinions, religion, and reality. I refuse to let some Geek girl define things for me. Fuck that shit.

Kayla


Edited by LUCIFERIFIC (03/27/08 10:07 PM)
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#6518 - 03/27/08 11:18 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: ZephyrGirl
This version of the forum has only been around for about the last year.


Six or seven months more like - from early autumn/fall 2007.
(Gosh, has it been that long?)


On the subject of Satanism(s)... 'Satanists' come in all varieties here, all with their own take on Satanism (and for many, who else qualifies as a 'true' Satanist).

Perhaps a more pertinent question for many might be: What does Satan symbolise for YOU?

Personally, I prefer Satan without the 'ism'.
I follow no single 'ism', but rather seek to find inspiration from diverse schools of thought, without buying into a single set of ideas of how things are.
'Ism' seems to suggest a fixed way of thinking or set of doctrines - then again, dogma is what it's all about for many...


So that almost gives my own answer to my own question:
Satan to me represents freedom from rigid dogmatism, including (but not limited to) disempowering and unsubstantiated moral dogma.
In place of these values are survival, personal empowerment, pleasure, humour, intelligence, passion, individuality, and just a subtle hint of misanthropy (or at least realism concerning the human beast)...

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#6545 - 03/28/08 04:12 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Stag]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Stag
In other words, the word "Satanism" means different things to different people. Sometimes these meanings are mutually exclusive. Since no authority exists to establish exclusive rights to the word, each of us must take personal responsibility for its use. This is hardly controversial stuff, surely?


Thank you. Nice to see that at least one got the point. My guess is, that the text would have had no comments at all, if the few lines mentioning the ONA had been excluded. If anyone had a reason to complain about the view that you yourself also express above, it would have been people from the CoS who insist on only one definition of Satanism.

- Amina

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#6546 - 03/28/08 04:16 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
I reserve the right to define my own words, thoughts, beliefs, opinions, religion, and reality. I refuse to let some Geek girl define things for me.


And that is exactly what the text asks of you: to define your *own* understanding of Satanism. Sorry to say so, but as far as I can see you are actually agreeing with me.

- Amina

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#6547 - 03/28/08 04:35 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: DistroyA]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: DistroyA
Does it really matter whether there is one or more religions/ideologies that go under the name of "Satanism"?


Yes and no. It isn't a problem that you have a lot of different definitions of Satanism, but it would be hard to say anything about the phenomena unless you focus on only one kind as "the one and only" (as the CoS does), or describe different kinds of Satanism AS different kinds. The Temple of Set, The Church of Satan, Order of Nine Angles, Satanic Reds and individual satanic philosophies belonging to individual satanists each have its own history, philosophy, view on Satan, rituals (if used) and so on. Is Satanism atheistic? If you ask the CoS it is. If you ask the ONA or ToS it isn't and so on.

This is so obvious that I can understand why it must give you an headache to try to explain it as some insane idea from a strange "geekie girl".

- Amina

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#6548 - 03/28/08 04:45 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Amina
 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
I reserve the right to define my own words, thoughts, beliefs, opinions, religion, and reality. I refuse to let some Geek girl define things for me.


And that is exactly what the text asks of you: to define your *own* understanding of Satanism. Sorry to say so, but as far as I can see you are actually agreeing with me.

- Amina


What!? You spent like 6 pages arguing with people trying to get them to agree with YOUR definition and understanding of "True Satanism" which you clearly expressed in your original 'thesis'.

Whatever Amina.
_________________________
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Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#6587 - 03/28/08 10:52 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Amina
 Originally Posted By: LUCIFERIFIC
I reserve the right to define my own words, thoughts, beliefs, opinions, religion, and reality. I refuse to let some Geek girl define things for me.


And that is exactly what the text asks of you: to define your *own* understanding of Satanism. Sorry to say so, but as far as I can see you are actually agreeing with me.

- Amina
Ok, lets retrack our claws for a moment, brush our mutual hatred for each other a side, because its getting in the way of understanding one another; and talk about this. I've been thinking (which is very rare) and I've come to the conclusion that we are both right.

See the problem we are having is a "cultural" one, and a high school one. Lets think about it for a moment:

First I was a cheerleader in high school, and one of the popular girls; i mean really popular, and we just didn't like girls like you - you know, the kind that did their homework and read and hung out in the library; we copied off of you, and maybe even pretended to like you, so you'll let us copy so we can graduate; but cheerleaders and dweebs don't mix. But look, we're not in high school any more, i've learned that now. We're in the real word now where we don't need to do homework. I don't need to pretend to like you and copy off you, and nobody is going to grade your thesis. Lets psychologically graduate from high school together today.

Secondly your "European." Whereas I'm American. I placed the word "European" in quotations because the European Union is such a new Idea that on an Emotional level, europeans don't feel Europeans, in a collective way. But we Americans aren't like that. It doesn't matter if one american is from California, Utah, New York, or Montana - we're all American. You europeans are different. A Danish is still in DEFINITION very different from a French or English person.

In a way Satanism is like this to us. You see, Satan is an abstract symbol; just like the American flag is an abstract symbol. We pay some sort of homage or honor to Satan, just like we pledge our alligence to our flag; but we americans come in all sorts of different races, colors, backgrounds, ancestries, and religions; dispite this on an emotional and psychological level we all know we basically are Americans. Our difference here does not mean that our understanding or or definition is different from american to america. Even to both democrats and republicans America is still ONE; and yet we have our superficial personal differences; this doesn't mean that one american is more a True American than another.

This is how Satanism is to ME; as i see and understand it. Satan is an abstract symbol to which most of us here agree on; yes we each have our own uniquness which may influence our Satanism superficially; but on a subjective level Satan is ONE.

On the other had you need to blockade your Satanism in very well defined psychological boarders - just as europe is brocken down into well defined boundaries. Take for example Denmark, Sweden, and Norway. Dispite the fact that all three royal houses are related, and the language are dialects of each other and even mutually intelligible, you guys insist that there is a definite difference and have a hard time accepting that a Danish is a Swedish and both are Europeans.

See, so we are both right. Yes there are many Satanisms as you say, because this is how your brain has become accustom to interpreting things. But Yes there is only one basic Satanism and it needs no fracturing definitions as I say, because this is how I, as an American, interpret things.

So lets just shake hands, smile at each other, accept that we are both right and wrong, focus on the Satanism we have in common, and try to be friends and enjoy each others company, since it doesn't seem as you'll be going away, and a computer screen is a very small place making it impossible to not bump into each other.

Just because we disagree on a few topics doesn't mean we should hate each other. My brother and sister are both Satanists, with beliefs and opinions that differ radically from mine, and I get into heated argument like this with them all the time; but I still love them to death and would do anything for them.

I know we argued and fought, and i did call you names, but it was just out of frustration. I never meant anything by it. You are a very intelligent individual and you possess talents and skills which i envy and would want to have Amina. I don't hate you Amina... You just forgot about what they say about First Impressions. My first impression of you weren't all that welcoming. But I'm over it.

Lets just let this dumb argument go, so this thread won't turn into an epic saga or trilogy; and hang out in other forum topics? This isn't fun any more, and its neither going anywhere or teaching anyone anything except how we both can be childish and dumb. It makes us look very bad; and quite frankly I'm beautiful and I can't afford to look bad. And it doesn't do much for Satanism as a whole either.

So lets just let this thread die and go away, and you and I can participate in other threads in a more productive way. There's a lot of dumb idiots in here, and me and you teamed up, we can either educate them to death (which is something your very good at) or kick their asses (which is something I'm good at). Let forget about this drama, show people here we're mature and can be friends, and that Satanism has made us at least intelligent enough to realize we have more in common, and that making this thread any longer is not going to do anything. The last thing we need in Satanism in my opinion is infighting; more inbreeding yes; infighting no; or the muslims will get us some day. If we can put so much time and effort fighting and hating each other, we can put in the same amount of time and effort into liking each other and being Satanic Sisters and Friends.

<3 Kayla


Edited by LUCIFERIFIC (03/28/08 11:24 PM)
_________________________
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Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#104171 - 12/01/15 01:06 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Amina]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6786
Loc: Virginia


Contributors include: Amina Olander Lap, Troll Towelhead, Venus Satanas, and Anton Long.

Publisher: Oxford University Press; 1 edition
Publication Date: October 30, 2015
Sold by: Amazon Digital Services, Inc.

Ties in with THIS TOPIC

From the LaVeyan Satanism Wiki:

 Quote:
with religious studies scholar Amina Olander Lap arguing that it should be seen as being both part of the "prosperity wing" of the self-spirituality New Age movement and a Human Potential Movement group


In the book The Invention of Satanism, it focuses on the 'movement' aspect, in that these so-called 'types of Satanism', fall under Behavioral Science in relation to ideologies that seemingly change and adapt with the modern era.

The authors state:

 Quote:
Substantially, some groups within the subcurrent are easily identifiable as satanic religions with supernaturalism, doctrine, practice, community, and organization; others are more mystical, spiritual or more philosophical side, a loose network or carnal brotherhood or fellow seekers ( or at least temporary allies.


Amina's paper here just runs down the laundry list of obstacles in discernment:

 Quote:
Satanism can only be defined meaningfully if the term describes a concept that can be distinguished from other concepts.


Since Wicca was brought up within these pages, for contrast, what discerns the Satanic or a Satanism from that which is the Wicca?

Leland's treatise (Aradia) has been used as a sort of back story for the fertility (aka sex) cult forged in the 50's. Lord (Lucifer) and Lady (Diana) are archetypal structures used to carry idea sets. Amina (not knowing its background) described it as Theistic. This isn't necessarily true and in contrast to 'Theistic Satanism', it's not as cut and dry as believing these people worship godheads. They are more or less symbols for things (i.e. forces, energies, natural dynamics, physics, etc et. al).

Just as Satanism is muddied by individuals injecting their own Ethics and Morals (enter the CoS or The Satanic Temple for that matter), the same is true for Wicca. Enter Doreen Valientee's discontent with Gerald's Sexism. Later the injection of the Rede just makes it even more confusing for people. Not many understand what it means, or they translate it to be "Stay away from the Dark Arts!"

Just as there are white-lighter Wiccans we see this sort among 'Satanists' as well.

After reading through the pages here, it just seems like a bunch of reactionary commentary based on Amina's Rhetoricals (One Satanism or more Satanisms?).

In an earlier work:


Amina contributed to the area of categorizing Satanism(s).

 Quote:
This chapter is a thematic reading of several core texts authored by the Church of Satan's high priest, Anton LaVey. By looking closely at the anthropology found in The Satanic Bible, The Satanic Witch and The Satanic Rituals, the analysis substantiates the prevalent categorization of modern Satanism as a self-spirituality. The constitution of “damaged” and “satanic” selves, respectively, and how one is liberated from one to the other leads to the conclusion that LaVey indeed should be included in the company of humanistic psychology, self-religion and human potential groups; on the other hand he also differs in his materialistic and ego-driven interpretation of human potential. LaVey's Satanism is thus related more to the secularized “prosperity wing” of New Age thought than the varieties of spirituality found in the cultic milieu today, and should be considered a distinct discourse of world-affirmation.


Getting back to her Essay:

 Quote:
Which Definition Is Best?
To answer the question of which definition of Satanism is the best one, it is necessary to evaluate its degree of selfcontradiction and its clarity of concepts. If a definition cannot provide a concept that can be distinguished from other concepts, as happens if the definition is too broad, the definition is useless or deficient at best. If the definition involves mutually exclusive constructs, then the concept does not provide any clarification.

Furthermore, if Satanism is to be accepted as a philosophy, it must be defined according to the usual requirements of a philosophy. Among other requirements, Satanism must consider the fundamental philosophical questions, and a philosophical method must be applied in arguments. If these requirements are not met, either the definition does not define a philosophy, or the philosophy is primitive and lacks substance.


If the individual were seeking to have their 'satanic philosophy' accepted as a credible philosophy, I suppose that would be important to them. It's also the antithesis of LHP and cause for much discourse among these 'temporary allies' as James Lewis calls them.

Toying with the Needle started by Diavolo, seemed to be exploring the topic of "anything can be Satanic", an aspect Amina pointed to when attempting to distinguish Satanism from other concepts.

As for who has the goods and who doesn't? Plenty of self-identified 'Satanists' have contributed to papers and books on the subject. Very few are considered 'Religious Scholars', the gen-pop tends to consider the latter more credible. It doesn't mean their assertions are etched in stone nor are they finite. Scholars in any field of study often disagree, peer reviewing ideas is thought to keep people more truthful and rest on the facts (when possible). When it comes to the Behavioral Sciences, whether I personally agree or disagree with many types of Satanism is irrelevant. The gen-pop will parrot and cite from what they believe are credible sources and make their own judgments.

For me, I think all of this mayhem has always been part of the allure of Satan (ism). All that confusion, no real way to make it all easy to understand or palatable to the masses. I'm fine with people believing it's just a joke, or some cartoon parody of Red Devil Guy. Other people take it way more seriously and take on a life's pursuit to write books and make tv appearances to make sure the public gets the 'correct' interpretation. Maybe it serves them in a personal way I'll never understand. *shrugs*
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#104173 - 12/01/15 01:27 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
To be honest "Satanism" is a something which cannot be nailed down. It's simply too versatile. People trying to do so are almost always showing more personal inclinations and not so much "Satanism" itself.

As far as the books go... the only worthwhile "contributor" I see would be Anton Long... as far as credibility with that one goes. The other three I generally consider as some kind of laughing stocks.
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#104174 - 12/01/15 07:55 PM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: SIN3]
Czereda Online
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 1816
Loc: Poland
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
For me, I think all of this mayhem has always been part of the allure of Satan (ism). All that confusion, no real way to make it all easy to understand...


Perhaps because understanding/enlightenment is an illusion. In the thread "Eihnaephe" I mentioned Socratic dialogues. It's quite relevant here as we are dealing with an attempt to define an abstract noun which is Satanism and the Socratic dialogues mostly deal with trying to define such abstractions like courage, friendship, temperance etc. They all end up in confusion, with nobody being able to give a perfect definition. Every attempt at defining is quickly deconstructed hence "I know that I know nothing."

Someone from the CoS once wrote that trying to define Satanism is like trying to nail custard to the wall. If Satan is the essence and the embodiment of "evil", then it would be advisable to define "evil." Is this possible at all? I don't know if you read this text "The Joy of the Sinister." There is a sub-chapter there titled "Toward Understanding Satanism" and it's an attempt to define Satanism by way of defining such words like Satan, evil, diabolical, wicked, bad in moral character and so on, using a dictionary as a help.

Of course, you can open your dictionary and on the basis of some arbitrary and imperfect definition of the word "evil" argue that killing people is evil, therefore Satanic. Here is a problem, however, because in some cases killing is not only justified but also regarded as something noble and virtuous. Let's take, for example, Kayla's example of a rebellion. Fighting against and killing your oppressors is often regarded as "good." I'm thinking about my own country and its history and how often the Catholic Church itself supported the fight and, in consequence, killing the occupants of the nation, how the Catholic priests supported and were often involved in fighting the Communist regime, how transgressing the laws of the regime was regarded as a sacred duty. At that time, nobody thought of it as something wicked, sinister or diabolical.

Or let's take the Cristero War in Mexico. These people killed innocent civilians at times, yet they considered their cause holy. Slaughtering people indiscriminately in the name of merciful God is something that Crusaders regularly did and they didn't even repent for that as nobody considered it a sin. I'm using Christian examples deliberately as these people would roll their eyes if someone called them the spawn of Satan.

You could argue that human sacrifice is something wicked but Aztecs would disagree with you. Killing the enemy at war is hardly ever considered evil. Even if women and children die, the end justifies the means. It was often claimed by some O9A bloggers that ISIS and their acts are Satanic and adversarial but they aren't seen in this way by the Muslim fundamentalists. To them the Western style of life is what they regard as Shaitan and an adversary.

So one could argue that being Satanic is transgressing the norms of your own society. But what if the society you're part of is in a state of war and carrying arms and killing enemies is a sacred duty? Then, being a hippie and sticking flowers in your hair would be Satanic as it would go against the social norms. It's all extremely subjective.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
As far as the books go... the only worthwhile "contributor" I see would be Anton Long... as far as credibility with that one goes. The other three I generally consider as some kind of laughing stocks.


I couldn't agree more though it might not be so obvious to the general public, including academic researchers. It all boils down to the marketing skills and who is the best at pimping their stuff to the masses. I read only a Google preview of the book SIN linked but I see that a considerable part of it is dedicated to the Satanic Temple. It doesn't surprise me. The most popular doesn't equal the best but it definitely catches the most attention. So I wouldn't be so quick to appreciate the scholarly works as even the scholars can have serious problems with separating the wheat from the chaff.

By the way, I really enjoyed Amina and Kayla's War of Vaginas. Very entertaining and the final reconciliation brings to my mind the final episode of Dynasty, when Alexis Colby reunited with Blake Carrington and his family after five years or more of a soap opera and they all lived happily ever after in a perfect harmony...


Edited by Czereda (12/01/15 07:57 PM)
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#104180 - 12/02/15 09:28 AM Re: One Satanism or more Satanisms? [Re: Czereda]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6786
Loc: Virginia
Perhaps it's more appropriate to say, a "Mutual Understanding", because I think on an individual level, each have their own. It's a no brainer to me but when I hear another person define it or try to explain the practice thereof in their own terms, it's Alien to my own.

Satanism is so often treated like it's a sentient helper or a pet, i.e. "Satanism helped me do... [fill in the blank]"

Reference texts like Dictionaries are misunderstood and often misused, they are just a point of reference in language. The Satanic requires context and as you've pointed out, it depends on what the Nomos is at the time. This is where the Prescriptive is applied to what is being described. It's also only one aspect, even if you'd consider it Prime. There are many angles.

 Originally Posted By: CZ
The most popular doesn't equal the best but it definitely catches the most attention.
There has always been a competitive nature to the Descriptive. Individuals or groups desire to have the best real estate on the market which again is part of all the mayhem. Is it any wonder why so many would-be Satanists tow the line? I think it does everyone a favor, even if on an individual basis you find the cognition issue annoying. I admit, a lot of the low-brow interpretations are a nuisance but you have to ask yourself: What do they stop you from doing?
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