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#5009 - 03/08/08 03:50 PM Who is a satanist and who is not - and why?
Amina Offline
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Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
I posted the text "One Satanism or more satanisms?" in another part of the forum. The text deals with the issue of defining Satanism. This apparently angered one of the regular users. When I see the latest posts on this part of the forum I notic the reaction to the post about the CoS calling on the feds. This makes me feel like invite you to participate in a discussion about another case of "Satanism in the media", and to tell me what you think: Is the guy a satanist or not, and has he acted in accordens with Satanism? The interesting part is not what you think about the case or the man, but how you come to your conclusion. How do you construct your arguments?

The case: http://www.wane.com/Global/story.asp?S=7982229&nav=menu32_2

- Amina

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#5012 - 03/08/08 05:01 PM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: Amina]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Amina
I posted the text "One Satanism or more satanisms?" in another part of the forum. The text deals with the issue of defining Satanism. This apparently angered one of the regular users. When I see the latest posts on this part of the forum I notic the reaction to the post about the CoS calling on the feds. This makes me feel like invite you to participate in a discussion about another case of "Satanism in the media", and to tell me what you think: Is the guy a satanist or not, and has he acted in accordens with Satanism? The interesting part is not what you think about the case or the man, but how you come to your conclusion. How do you construct your arguments?

The case: http://www.wane.com/Global/story.asp?S=7982229&nav=menu32_2

- Amina


His Satanism and his mental condition are two separate things. Even without the Satanist label, this guy would still be the same person mentally who suffers from serious issues if he's going to kill his three year old son. Thats way to young.
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#5014 - 03/08/08 05:12 PM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
If the court had found him so mentally ill that he could not be held responsible for his actions I don't think he would have gotten 45 years. Are you disagreeing with the court, the courts psychologists or do you have your own view on psychology in this issue?

- Amina

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#5016 - 03/08/08 05:15 PM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: Amina]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Amina
If the court had found him so mentally ill that he could not be held responsible for his actions I don't think he would have gotten 45 years. Are you disagreeing with the court, the courts psychologists or do you have your own view on psychology in this issue?

- Amina

So what do you want me to say? That he's a bad satanist because his kind of Satanism told him to sacrifice his 3 year old son? And that you have the answer with your Good Satanism? So what give you the idea or authority to define what Satanism is for others? Who are you to judge another person's Satanism and say thats its unsatanic because it isn't congruent to your standards?

I'm saying the mental or psychological impulse this guy had to kill his son and "Satanism" proper are two different things. If he incorporated Satanism into it he is only using it to justify his actions and impulses. I didn't say he was insane or not. I said they were two different entities.


Edited by LUCIFERIFIC (03/08/08 05:20 PM)
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#5017 - 03/08/08 05:47 PM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
Try to notic that I have NOT said anything about him being a satanist or not. I asked for opinions. As far as I can see you explain his actions by mental illness (issues) and excluded the possibility that he was motivated by Satanism. You did not see his actions and his belief as connected. I don't know why you did this, but I guess you did so because the article didn't say something like "Yes, you can blame the murder on Satanism - I killed my son as a sacrifice to our Dark Lord after reading up on Satanism on the ONA website". You said that his actions did not have anything to do with Satanism, not I. Bad girl.


- Amina

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#5018 - 03/08/08 05:58 PM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: Amina]
Amina Offline
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Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
Just for kicks we can include this case too: http://www.fox11az.com/news/topstories/stories/kmsb-20080221-wwljc-bernard.14ecf4c8.html

- Amina

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#5019 - 03/08/08 06:10 PM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: Amina]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Amina
Try to notic that I have NOT said anything about him being a satanist or not. I asked for opinions. As far as I can see you explain his actions by mental illness (issues) and excluded the possibility that he was motivated by Satanism. You did not see his actions and his belief as connected. I don't know why you did this, but I guess you did so because the article didn't say something like "Yes, you can blame the murder on Satanism - I killed my son as a sacrifice to our Dark Lord after reading up on Satanism on the ONA website". You said that his actions did not have anything to do with Satanism, not I. Bad girl.


- Amina
I can't seem to understand why you think killing people is evil or bad?

So if i killed a person for an abstract ideal like a "god" its evil...

but if i killed a hundred for an abstract ideal such as a "state" i'm a hero?

Within these two contexts where and when does the act of taking another persons life become bad or good; or right or wrong and why? Its just an action which we ascribe a subjective meaning too based on our own individual, personal mind. I thought satanists were beyond good and evil... or are we just paying lip service to Nietzsche because he wrote cool books like the "Antichrist?"

As far as this "Satanism father" goes he killed his son. We can't dig into his subjective landscape and see why he did it. Its very easy to blame it on Satanism. If he used Satanism to justify his actions, then that is all that Satanism has a part in - something he used to justify his actions.

To get to your original question - Is he a Satanist? Probably; if he believes himself to be.


Edited by LUCIFERIFIC (03/08/08 06:12 PM)
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#5022 - 03/08/08 06:20 PM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Amina Offline
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Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
Did I call it evil or bad? No I didn't. You introduced those words.

Now I think I want to introduce this case too: http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2007/09/02/story326065.asp

- Amina

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#5026 - 03/08/08 06:23 PM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: Amina]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Amina
Did I call it evil or bad? No I didn't. You introduced those words.

Now I think I want to introduce this case too: http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2007/09/02/story326065.asp

- Amina
You imply it by always bringing up the ONA? You stated in your scholarly thesis on True Satanism that the ONA is nothing more than a parody of True Satanism and is self destructive?
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Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


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#5029 - 03/08/08 06:34 PM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: Amina]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
 Quote:
Is the guy a satanist or not, and has he acted in accordens with satanism?


After I'd managed to wrap my head around Existentialism, these sorts of questions never quite made any sense to me any more.

Stag

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#5030 - 03/08/08 06:36 PM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: Stag]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
active member


Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Stag
 Quote:
Is the guy a satanist or not, and has he acted in accordens with satanism?


After I'd managed to wrap my head around Existentialism, these sorts of questions never quite made any sense to me any more.

Stag


But share your opinions or view points anyways Stag. I'm interested still.
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Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#5046 - 03/08/08 10:47 PM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: Amina]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Amina
This makes me feel like invite you to participate in a discussion about another case of "satanism in the media", and to tell me what you think: Is the guy a satanist or not, and has he acted in accordens with satanism?

At the end of your day does it matter? It doesn’t matter to me… All I see is a deranged individual that may have actually been reaching out for help with his statement… That and the typical behavior of mainstream news of using Satanism in the title to sell more papers… Satanism sells, you should know that after all without it who would you be spokesperson for?

 Originally Posted By: Amina
The interesting part is not what you think about the case or the man, but how you come to your conclusion. How do you construct your arguments?

My conclusion is simple… I do not give a fuck about this guy, his family, or the silly mention of Satanism in the article… The same holds true for all of the articles you added to this thread…

The construction of my argument it simple… Nothing brought up in any of these articles touch me or mine… They do not add to my life or take away from it… Therefore it means little to me…

It may be interesting to hear why it has anything to do with you? Why when you chose to take on the title and side with history’s most notorious villain, what made you feel the need to make people believe any different? Think of all your personal time you have wasted on the beliefs of others…

Perhaps if the reality of the title is too much for then you need to reevaluate yourself…

Good luck on your path…

~T~

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where is my fluffy purple friend anyway?
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#5060 - 03/09/08 01:10 AM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: ta2zz]
DaVinci Offline
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Registered: 02/09/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Australia
I'm certainly no Satanist; but Satanism is left to be defined to each individual. Who are we to judge whether or not he's a bad Satanist as set by his own definitions?
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#5065 - 03/09/08 04:28 AM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
 Quote:
But share your opinions or view points anyways Stag. I'm interested still.


Oh, go on then...

Existentially speaking, identity is meaningless, existence is paramount. In other words, it matters little what you call yourself (or others) -- rather, it is what you do that defines who you are (to paraphrase that great existential philosopher; Batman).

The problem with the question "Is the guy a satanist or not" is the implied sense of identity between this man and and this abstract concept of "a satanist". This is little more than a word game. Far more relevant is the fact that he murdered his own child and will, of course, have to face the consequences.

Stag


Edited by Stag (03/09/08 04:33 AM)

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#5072 - 03/09/08 05:45 AM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: ta2zz]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
Think of all your personal time you have wasted on the beliefs of others…


I am a student in the field of history of religion. I study what other people believe, that is what I do, that is my work as a student. Do I care what the media writ? Yes and no. I care when I am covering it for an article and I care if it has an impact on my life. The Matamoros case and the Manson case had impacts on peoples lives, but I do not think this case will have.

Do I view those people as satanists? If they say they are, then I have to include them in my objective definition of Satanism, but I do not need to include them in my subjective one.

- Amina

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#5076 - 03/09/08 05:58 AM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: Stag]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Stag
The problem with the question "Is the guy a satanist or not" is the implied sense of identity between this man and and this abstract concept of "a satanist". This is little more than a word game.


Yes, but not more of a word game then when other satanists claim to be satanists. Word games have rules, and if you want to know if you are playing by the rules you have to define the block you are playing with. In this case you are playing with the blocks "Is", "He" and "a satanist". Another word game would be "is he a fish". Now we are back to definitions, and in both cases you would be able to come up with lots of definitions. You could redefine the normal use of the word "fish" to point to the animal usually known as a "bird" and so on. All in a good days work for a German philosopher.

The point is: you are not able to answer any questions about anything unless you define the rules of the game and the words you are using. If not, then it would be as sensible to define all satanist as fish. A fun game, yes, but rather useless.

- Amina


Edited by Amina (03/09/08 06:00 AM)

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#7171 - 04/04/08 09:01 AM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: Amina]
truthseeker2000 Offline
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Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Upstate SC
I'm a former Christian who, up until now, would consider myself a "hopeful agnostic" in that I don't like the thought that this is all there is in life. However, since coming to this site I've read The Satanic Bible and said to myself, "wow, I agree with almost everything in this book!" Because of my religious upbringing I can't yet accept calling myself a Satanist even though I find myself agreeing with self described Satanists on a more and more frequent basis. Does this make me a Satanist who is just lying to himself? I don't like the idea of lying to myself. That's why I left Christianity in the first place!
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Lucifer's Light Liberates mankind

Caligula WSA
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#7176 - 04/04/08 11:41 AM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: truthseeker2000]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Greetings truthseeker2000,

Christian brainwashing or programming takes a long time for some to do away with… The fear of spending eternity in hell has been forced on you since you were but knee high in most cases… Live your life, do not fear things you have no control over such as death… Control the things you can in the here and now to make your life happier…

Remember Satanist is simply another title… If and when you are ready to use such a title you will know…

Be well in your journey…

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#7182 - 04/04/08 02:27 PM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: ta2zz]
truthseeker2000 Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Upstate SC
Words of wisdom and truth indeed! Thanks Ta2zz
_________________________
Lucifer's Light Liberates mankind

Caligula WSA
~~352~~

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#7844 - 04/16/08 10:20 PM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: truthseeker2000]
97and107 Offline
member


Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 268
Loc: New Mexico
 Originally Posted By: truthseeker2000
I'm a former Christian who, up until now, would consider myself a "hopeful agnostic" in that I don't like the thought that this is all there is in life. However, since coming to this site I've read The Satanic Bible and said to myself, "wow, I agree with almost everything in this book!" Because of my religious upbringing I can't yet accept calling myself a Satanist even though I find myself agreeing with self described Satanists on a more and more frequent basis. Does this make me a Satanist who is just lying to himself? I don't like the idea of lying to myself. That's why I left Christianity in the first place!


You know, it's funny...I feel more like a Satanist than ever before - but I find it more difficult to call myself a Satanist, when before it was more like an affirmation "I am a Satanist" became a mantra of responsibility not to take part in the flaws affecting other sectors of the populace still steeped in superstition and confusion.

When you take on a title sometimes it is a good way to cultivate those aspects you havn't achieved yet - there's no rule in place saying when you can call yourself a Satanist. The beauty of Satanism is there really are no hard rules to follow.

So yeah, just something to think about...sometimes you gotta start small...

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#7872 - 04/17/08 02:06 PM Re: Who is a satanist and who is not - and why? [Re: 97and107]
truthseeker2000 Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Upstate SC
 Originally Posted By: 97and107
 Originally Posted By: truthseeker2000
I'm a former Christian who, up until now, would consider myself a "hopeful agnostic" in that I don't like the thought that this is all there is in life. However, since coming to this site I've read The Satanic Bible and said to myself, "wow, I agree with almost everything in this book!" Because of my religious upbringing I can't yet accept calling myself a Satanist even though I find myself agreeing with self described Satanists on a more and more frequent basis. Does this make me a Satanist who is just lying to himself? I don't like the idea of lying to myself. That's why I left Christianity in the first place!


You know, it's funny...I feel more like a Satanist than ever before - but I find it more difficult to call myself a Satanist, when before it was more like an affirmation "I am a Satanist" became a mantra of responsibility not to take part in the flaws affecting other sectors of the populace still steeped in superstition and confusion.

When you take on a title sometimes it is a good way to cultivate those aspects you havn't achieved yet - there's no rule in place saying when you can call yourself a Satanist. The beauty of Satanism is there really are no hard rules to follow.

So yeah, just something to think about...sometimes you gotta start small...


I've just started to accept that I am a Satanist and have been all along. I question everything, make my own path and fiercely rebel against others that tell me who and what I should be. I look out, first and foremost, for those I care for and don't give a shit about anyone else unless it benefits me somehow. I've never conformed to a label, I've only accepted them if they conformed to me. So, if the label Satanist fits, I should be proud to wear it. Sometimes small steps seem like huge leaps until you actually take them.

Michael
_________________________
Lucifer's Light Liberates mankind

Caligula WSA
~~352~~

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