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#51200 - 03/18/11 04:12 AM Toying with the needle
Diavolo Offline
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I've since a while been wondering about exactly that which people call satanic. If there is certain behavior they call satanic but similar behavior is often displayed into others, should we then call this behavior seen in those as satanic or should we wonder if what we call satanic in ours might not be?

I can't but come to the conclusion that much of what is deemed satanic isn't.

To give an example. When I am at work, I am focused at my job and perform it at the best I can. I don't do it to receive compliments or secretly hope for a paycheck raise. It of course has benefits but that is not why I do it. I work as such because this is how I am, it comes natural to me. The very fact that many at work are lazy fucks who prefer to earn their cash as easy as possible doesn't define my mentality as satanic as much as their attitude being subnormal. They are not performing as what is considered natural.

What we often do is consider that what is normal as satanic because we let the subnormals become that upon which we evaluate, we let them become the norm. What they do is considered normal and thus all we do, which is of course an improvement upon this, suddenly appears supranormal and thus quite satanic.

When resetting the evaluation and apply the correct values, many qualities considered satanic become absolutely normal qualities, even when many do not possess those.

So the initial question remains; what is that behavior or those acts which are satanic?

D.

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#51201 - 03/18/11 05:14 AM Re: Toying with the needle [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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 Quote:
So the initial question remains; what is that behavior or those acts which are satanic?

No act is Satanic but only the sum of the different acts and display of, what some call, Satanic virtues will make something Satanic.
Even that is wrong considering your remark of "evaluating the abnormal". So what is it really? Perhaps that particular mindset and thrive for self-embetterment combined with a personal take on morals. The standing out by knowing your own act and just being who you are. And even knowing you are but human, have mistakes, are having certain traits who are not even considered to be Satanic at all, sin against certain virtues who most hold high in regard within the Satanic community...

Just being human and not synthetically elevating (by means of words or posing as) oneself.
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#51202 - 03/18/11 05:23 AM Re: Toying with the needle [Re: Diavolo]
Harvey Offline
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Registered: 03/28/10
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Someone who is proud, defiant, passionate, intelligent, driven and successful (by whatever measure) would tick most of the boxes I should think.

What are your thoughts on the matter? It seems unlikely there will be a general consensus.

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#51204 - 03/18/11 05:37 AM Re: Toying with the needle [Re: Harvey]
Diavolo Offline
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These are traits and while satanist might possess those, this is not really what I am wondering about. I am wondering about that which leaves the abstract and manifests into the real.

Of course something like being intelligent will manifest in reality but I'd not necessarily see that as a display of Satanism. What one does with this intelligence might and that is what I am asking about; what makes the real difference in what is being done which deserves the label of satanic, inevitably dependent upon the type of Satanism one stands for?

D.

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#51209 - 03/18/11 07:59 AM Re: Toying with the needle [Re: Diavolo]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
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I can only concur with Diavolo. This question goes to what is irreducibly Satanic. Dependent upon one's apprehension of what constitutes Satanism, this leads to a certain guiding archetype, or exemplar of excellence. If one focuses on self-betterment and the insights that result from this perfection, one is turning the collectivist ideal away at the door. Utilitarianism likewise. It is the perfection of the Self which is of the essence. I don't want anything meddling with that. Whether said ideal and pursuit of same is to be found in carpentry, plumbing, soldiering, teaching or music doesn't matter. In fact, the actual skills themselves matter little compared to what they teach you in essence. Satanism is following your own path, not putting off the journey or hanging around in a glade. Satanism is reaching beyond what we know and are comfortable with.

This puts Satanism at right angles to pretty much every other religious and philosophical ideal in that it is essential egotistical and ego-centric. It requires no approval, no consent, no rousing cheer. It just requires the right person, with a strong will and a powerful dislike for being told what is right and what is wrong. The Satanist will do things his or her own way, seeking insight by digging into the universe wherever and however it makes sense to them. If it works, it produces results. If it doesn't work, it should be discarded, not allowed to hang around like a long-outdated bylaw that is kept sacrosanct for the sake of tradition.

In short; Satanists reach. The goal is, after all, to become a god. The proof is in the pudding. You either succeed or fail. A good sign of a Satanist - at least in my book - is that he/she is attracted to conflicting viewpoints and practices, since they can only provide more clarity, either by being right or by being so wrong that they throw one's own viewpoint into sharp relief. Will. Self. Growth. It is through these that we become gods.
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#51215 - 03/18/11 10:05 AM Re: Toying with the needle [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Your last post was so informative and condensed with truths. However I personally never saw Satanism as apotheosis but to lower myself to natures standards and be as an animal aware of itself and it's limitations thus being able to transcend them and assert myself into the surroundings.

I have posted a lot of Gnostic Thanatos - death worship (something possibly ridiculous that I created), but that is only to reflect the presence of death and that death is the end of consciousness in a vivid and sobering reality. This I feel makes one wretchedly content and with desperation to experience life now while one can still act, that time is passing rapidly and that we are subject to mortality at any moment. The unmanifest nature of death is within, linked to the dark subconsciousness in my understanding.

Saying that though I am naturally what you would call a LaVey type but not as wise, because that's just how I always have been, I simply need to step out of my area to experience higher stimulation which I have tasted through uncomfortable situation that I have no control over, I certainly can't be a god, just a lowly beast like the rest of life on Earth doomed with awareness and intelligence. Passing through the eye of the needle is rare to attain in my praxis—Gnosis, the dark gnosis would be culmination of dark mental activity and knowledge turned into understanding through the black arts of ones choosing. The non-dual state of one pointedness meditation on non-existence. The most hideous intrusions from what must be the subconsciousness happen here and seem to never end. You come out of this with heightened appreciation, and things are in a certain shade of light. For me anyway.

The final awareness that death is final and yet the paradoxical unbound freedom from and loss of consciousness, the dark alpha and omega before being and after the very same as the fate of the universe and it's collective consciousness, the death of God including man.

This is a kick in the ass to live dangerously, instead of being careful, I wonder if anyone can see why.
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#51225 - 03/18/11 03:18 PM Re: Toying with the needle [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
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I agree it goes all to that which is irreducibly satanic. And we need to learn to make a distinction between that which is natural, and that which isn't. Natural in this case doesn't imply what the populus decides it is, since they do not create value or worth but upon what those looking in themselves for value decide it to be. After all, even while one sees it creep in from time to time, slave morality and their valuation have no place in that which is satanic.

In that, I see what is a satanic deed as twofold. One, it is an external consequence of an internal improvement. All change is conflict and all conflict causes damage. At times, one has to do that what is needed and one cannot avoid inflicting damage when doing so. Such is neither enjoyed nor regretted, such is necessary and has to be accepted as such. Whenever enjoyment or regret arises, it is an indication one failed and needs to improve.

The second is a conscious external act purely triggered by the satanic perspective, not to transcend but to express. It is enforcing one's will, exercising one's dominance. And with consciously unleashing one's Will to Power, evidently, enjoyment is triggered.

As all gods or masters, one observes, judges and interferes.

D.

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#51228 - 03/18/11 03:37 PM Re: Toying with the needle [Re: Hegesias]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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 Originally Posted By: Hegesias
I have posted a lot of Gnostic Thanatos - death worship (something possibly ridiculous that I created), but that is only to reflect the presence of death and that death is the end of consciousness in a vivid and sobering reality. This I feel makes one wretchedly content and with desperation to experience life now while one can still act, that time is passing rapidly and that we are subject to mortality at any moment. The unmanifest nature of death is within, linked to the dark subconsciousness in my understanding.


Your consciousness will surely fade when death claims you, as will whatever identity you express at that moment but there is something deeper inside, something essential, something quite fundamental, which will not be lost since it was not yours to begin with, and you are merely an expression of it, partaking in an everlasting conflict triggered by life. In that, when we realize we fundamentally represent a specific drive, are parts of a force, death becomes something quite trivial.

Even when we might cry for our mommy when it happens.

D.

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#51256 - 03/18/11 06:46 PM Re: Toying with the needle [Re: Diavolo]
Harvey Offline
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Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 39
Indeed they are traits, but the implication was that a being possessed of these traits might behave in a satanic manner. I should have elaborated on that.

As for a paragon, I like Richard Branson: maverick daredevil/entrepreneur - a literal D. D. Harriman. Gordon Gekko and a youthful Heff also spring to mind. Elvis, Alexander the Great, The Count of Monte Cristo, Arnie. These men are/were driven, at the top of their game. They are all very human (albeit fictional in some instances). The difference is that they excel at it - whatever their goal.

If you are familiar with these creations/people, the bahavior and actions I reference should be no mystery.

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#51315 - 03/19/11 07:33 AM Re: Toying with the needle [Re: Harvey]
Diavolo Offline
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The habit of looking upon those who set their name in stone and qualify them as somewhat satanic is often seen but truthfully, one can hardly produce any evidence at all most of those ever were walking the LHP.

They didn't excel at whatever goal; they excelled at exactly that which they were good at and which led them into the history books.

Admirable, yes maybe, but satanic, no.

Often they are simply used as a proxy to makes us feel good about ourselves. As in "Bill Gates sure was a satanist, so I must indeed be doing the right thing."

D.

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#51845 - 03/28/11 08:00 AM Re: Toying with the needle [Re: Diavolo]
Harvey Offline
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Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 39
There's the rub. This thing variously referred to as "Satanism" is so individualistic as to be almost meaningless. It might just be easier to discount everyone who does not share our own traits, but I've never thought of myself as a satanist.

The terms "LHP" and "Satanist" may be quite irrelevant for those who set the standards and forge their own path rather than follow someone's lead. The aforementioned are welcome here.

And just to clarify - it was not my intention that these folk blitzed every goal, just those particular to them.

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#51849 - 03/28/11 12:39 PM Re: Toying with the needle [Re: Harvey]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
It's been a while since I read the Satanic Bible. But I believe Anton LaVey was proposing the idea that most people are basically Humanist and would call themselves Satanists if they simply had the balls.

In the most abstract sense I imagine it's a kind of liberal bias that has anyone look to the 'loser' in any story with sympathy or affection, such is my own story. I do feel my affinity for Satan, which for me was as instant as hearing the myth of Satan (is not Satan doing a good thing introducing man to knowledge? Are we certain when Satan revolted it wasn't for a GOOD reason [the Bible is God's point of view and naturally biased, no?]). I mean, as soon as I was in Christian Sunday School as a child I had such concepts in relation to their indoctrination - no LaVey necessary.

But I think it's the same reason I look to the story of the conflict in Israel and have more sympathy for the Palestinians. It's not because they are right, it's because they, like Satan in the Christian paradigm I'm born into - are both UNDERDOGS.

The reason I jump to the metaphor of Satan, is because that truly is the main thing uniting Satanists, and it does explicitly distinguish all Satanists from everyone else - irregardless of the otherwise broad diversity.

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#51858 - 03/28/11 03:05 PM Re: Toying with the needle [Re: myk5]
Diavolo Offline
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I don't know about others but I can be considered as much of a humanist as Ted Bundy would be considered a philanthropist. So personally I think there is much more difference between Satanism and humanism besides having “balls”.

To comment on Harvey, yes the label Satanism and LHP are quite trivial to the individual living his life and generally only serve a purpose when interacting. But I don't think that they are meaningless since all forge their own path; the LHP does require a specific praxis, methods identical to all practitioners, even when on what or when they are applied might be of an individual nature.

Of course it becomes needlessly complicated since everyone uses the label and it therefor is also often applied on that which is not applicable.

D.

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#51863 - 03/28/11 04:48 PM Re: Toying with the needle [Re: Diavolo]
Shea Offline
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Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 108
Loc: Chicago
This entire discussion beautifully illustrates the difficulty inherent in labels. What is powerfully Satanic to one person, is just a matter of natural behavior to another and inconsequential to another yet.
In my mind, something can be considered Satanic in two ways: when it accentuates and embraces the essentially dialectical nature of life (how metaphysical and physical changes occur by synthesis); and/or when consciousness is elevated beyond what occurs naturally. A Promethean form of mental reaching, akin to what Nietzsche was describing when he spoke of the activities of his "Attempters."
Which means that Satanism as an ideology and a lifestyle has an important objective definition but also depends heavily upon the subjective experiences and motivations of whoever finds themselves on the LHP or attempting to define it as such.
"Satanist" is a label, much as "animal" is a label. Just because both words are used to describe something far reaching in scope, doesn't take away the essential nature of what those labels are used to describe. Labels appear superficial, but ultimately, if they're accurate to any degree, they're useful to everyone but some pseudo-scholarly neo-Platonist attempting to find the nonsensical Real.

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#104159 - 11/30/15 11:56 AM Re: Toying with the needle [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: SA
Dependent upon one's apprehension of what constitutes Satanism, this leads to a certain guiding archetype, or exemplar of excellence.


I have a different interpretation.

Speaking of guiding archetypes and goals. Satanism isn't a vehicle to *become* god, LHP is knowing you are already autonomous to make choices on your own behalf. To par excellence? Not by a long shot. In fact, it may be to the opposite effect causing a complete destruction of self. All those ideas banging around that drive the cart.

As for toying with the needle, any deed or sum of deeds can be discerned as Satanic but it also requires contrast.

There is the Satanic among 'Satanists' which is why there is so much discourse. Not because one invokes an emissary of adversarial ism but rather because sheep so often pose as wolves.
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