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#51738 - 03/24/11 10:59 PM Re: Satanic movie characters [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2524
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
Okay Dr. Aquino, time to get serious. Can you beat this one? The Great Stanton!

In a thread about "Satanic movie characters", I don't think I would include Nightmare Alley. It clearly held considerable allure to Anton LaVey, but I think in more of a self-destructive demonic way:

 Originally Posted By: M.A.A., The Church of Satan
At about this time [1947] Howard became fascinated with a 1946 novel by William Lindsay Gresham, Nightmare Alley. As later summarized by Nikolas Schreck:

 Originally Posted By: Nikolas Schreck, letter, 9/1/98
Stanton Carlisle, an ambitious carny on the make, learns a few techniques for “cold reading” or “mitt reading” rubes and telling them what they want to hear. Armed with a philosophy consisting of “One in five is a born chump” (page #19) and “Misdirection is the whole works, honey” (page #35), our hero spruces himself up and develops his spiel. He declares himself a Reverend and impresses the credulous by donning a clerical collar.

The crooked Reverend gets hold of an old house, which he calls “the Church” of his controversial religion. “With this house I can gimmick it up from cellar to attic,” (page #136) he crows, going into the spook racket with a vengeance. In the early days of the Church, the Reverend makes a living charging for nightly lectures on esoteric topics and teaching “development classes” to his disciples. Topics for these lectures are cribbed from obscure books with which he assumes his audience will not be familiar.

He develops a polished, cultured manner of public speaking for his clerical activities, while privately retaining the vulgar, tough-guy lingo of his carnival days. This double life begins to create psychic strain, and he becomes paranoid, fretting that “there could be a cabal forming against him in the Church.” (page #154) He tires of small fry and seeks the company of “well-heeled” clientele.

His mistrust of everyone ferments into a pathological misogyny, and he takes out his fears and insecurities on the “dames” in his life, mistreating and eventually pimping them. This does not prevent him from blaming all of his self-created misfortunes on what he sees as female deviousness and treachery.

Eventually this hard-eyed cynic, who likes to think he’s a few steps ahead of the world he despises, ends up as an impoverished freak. Far from achieving the “big time” success he longs for, he spends his last days as a forgotten laughing stock.

According to Zeena, her father became mesmerized by this book, deciding that his own middle name of “Stanton” signified a magical or psychic link between himself and “Stanton Carlisle”. He proceeded to pattern much of his own personality and lifestyle after the model of Carlisle, kept a poster from the Tyrone Power film of the novel prominently displayed in his own home, and included author Gresham’s name on the dedication page of his Satanic Bible. He named his second daughter Zeena after a central character in the novel and later insisted that she name her own son after the “Stanton” in the novel. [At that time, according to Zeena, she did not know Anton’s real middle name was also “Stanton”.]

In his Aristos John Fowles used the term nemo not in the heroic/Nietzschean Jules Verne sense, but rather:

 Originally Posted By: John Fowles, The Aristos
The nemo is a man's sense of his own futility and ephemerality, of his relativity,his comparativeness, his virtual nothingness ...

Fowles sees much of human behavior as attempts to defeat the nemo, which is an ever-present, gnawing sort of personal spectre.

I much prefer [as extensively in COS] to compare Anton to Dr. Phibes, who is conspicuously nemo-free!
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Michael A. Aquino

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#51741 - 03/25/11 01:19 AM Re: Satanic movie characters [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



This is an interesting thing Dr.

I tend to see Stanton Carlisle as a great Satanic magician. He seems to have many important elements; such as the cynicism and the “I’ve seen it all” realism of an old carny, with an almost “supernatural” ability to read people and a seemingly innate talent to control others for whatever reason. He must rank as one of the greatest Lesser Magical magician’s I have encountered in film and/or book. The Satan from Merritt’s book certainly ranks with Carlisle as well though.

There is a bit of a tragic side to Carlisle, which I find to be quite Satanic. I do find tragedy to be Satanic. He climbs to the top and then crashes, just like the figure in Zeena’s Tower tarot card, which Carlisle would usually ridicule. He crashes to earth and ends up becoming the geek and then is saved by a woman.

The tragic occurs over and over again, with the great Satanic characters, in the great noir movies. I am thinking of Shubunka from The Gangster and Robinson’s character from Scarlet Street in particular. Both of these characters end up being destroyed or overpowered by “fate”, by the consequences of the control they enforce and lose, by their magic and the effect it brings. This theme of tragedy seems to occur again and again.

Tragedy is a constant background in the Phibes films as well I think. I am thinking here of the death of Victoria and the pain, anger and the thirst for revenge which drives Phibes in the first film. Phibes is more focused on bringing Victoria back to life in the second film. Phibes presumably regains his life and Victoria does as well after all the planning has been carried out. So he does exercise control through to the end and acquires his goal, unlike some of the tragic Satanic figures.

In terms of Carlisle I like to try to separate the character of Carlisle from the perception I have of Dr. LaVey, though they do seem to be entwined in some sense.

I was actually reading your C/S ebook today Dr. and was specifically reading Page 153 through to 155 regarding what LaVey and you thought of the Priesthood of Mendes and the sorts of people required, the sorts of qualities required in the ideal candidate.

I was struck by the sincerity of LaVey here and his commitment to building a clergy of real, successful and talented individuals, who were competent and committed to the serious work to be undertaken and who could kick ass when needed.

This picture I get of Dr. LaVey from reading his comments on the priesthood is different from the picture I get of Stanton Carlisle and his intentions for his “Church.”

Sometimes I look at Carlisle though and what he did, and I look at LaVey and what he did and I think: the similarities are so close, so very close.

Then again I personally think Dr. LaVey may have deliberately and carefully cultivated an image in order to confuse and confound, to draw attention, to control. I think he may have borrowed elements from a lot of different places in order to build this image.

(Another great Satanic character - Tyrell from Blade Runner. Think I may have mentioned him before. He only appears in the film a few times, but he is one of the ones behind the scenes controlling everything. This reminds me of Chinatown and those shadowy figures who seem to determine everything, but unlike Tyrell are never seen, apart from Huston.)

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#51742 - 03/25/11 02:03 AM Re: Satanic movie characters [Re: ]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Dr. LaVey was actually more than one person wrapped up into one. I never saw him as being someone obsessed with Stanton Carlisle in NIGHTMARE ALLEY. He did like the movie. We all watched it one night in the purple room and he could recite certain passages of the film off the top of his head, such as the scene I posted where Carlisle learns about cold reading. But then, he could do the same with the Phibes films, especially when playing the keyboards... and there were times he WAS much like Phibes. And he could do the same thing with The Seven Faces of Dr. Lao, and if I HAD to choose one character from the many movies I watched with him on those long nights at the Black House, Dr. Lao would be the one that I personally woulds see in him most. Like many of the films, he knew them by rote and could recite the lines flawlessly AND with proper accents.

He was good at most of them, but when he did Dr. Lao, it was almost as if he became the character. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llXWQeOhZyk

He could be DANGEROUS when in the mode of Pan. He didn't play the panpipes that I know of, but he could key in the pipes on his organ. One evening we were sitting in the "kitchen," where he had his keyboards set up, drinking a glass of wine. He was there, as was I, and Tari, another Administrator. He began playing the pipes as Pan, slowly at first and then faster. It was hypnotic. Tari was feeling it almost immediately, and I watched her as she began to become turned on to the sound. Took a bit longer for me, but there was no doubt about it, even as I KNEW it had to be psychological, that I wanted to throw Tari on the floor and have my way with her right there and then. All I could hear was the music, and it was like aural Viagra. When he brought the tune to a crashing climax, I asked, "What the hell was that?"

He just smiled and said, "I don't know. I made it up as I went along."
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#51743 - 03/25/11 02:40 AM Re: Satanic movie characters [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2524
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
I tend to see Stanton Carlisle as a great Satanic magician ...

A very insightful interpretation of Nightmare Alley, thanks. Anton and I never had occasion to discuss the film; I don't think I had ever heard of it until the Schrecks called it to my attention.

The "ASLV demonic self" film that I would pick, and that gave me quite a shock when I first saw it in a theater, was Fade to Black.

Few people realize that Anton had a very naïve, idealistic side to him - indeed what I think of as his "authentic self" under all of the carny/Ming/Phibes/[Carlisle?] layers of character armor. I would go so far as to say that it was the realities of human society which crashed in upon this self which drove him to respond with the extremes of all that projective armor.

In 1972 he gave me a copy of Nathaniel West's A Cool Million, which was a satire on the Horatio Alger rags-to-riches American-dream story. The hero of ACM is Lemuel Pitkin, a young man with the noblest of intentions who sets out to do the right thing, to help everyone, and to trust everybody. He meets with nothing but betrayal, exploitation, and catastrophe, culminating in his death [upon which he is idolized - and of course exploited - as a hero]. No one has any cause to hate him personally, but everyone sees him as a sucker and mark. I found Anton's inscription very telling - concerning both of us:



As recounted in The Church of Satan, in the mid-1970s as Anton was becoming increasingly alienated from the actual, organizational Church, he was simultaneously being drawn to the siren-song of "Hollywood Babylon". He sought, and was often sought by, the company of film people; he and Diane made frequent drives down to L.A. to visit & schmooze. He was very proud of his SAG (Screen Actors Guild) card. And all the while his fascination with and fantasies about Marilyn Monroe continued to grow.

When you combine this with A Cool Million, you'll be able to see why Fade to Black stunned me in the way that it did - right down to MM's necromantic reappearance as muse, love goddess, and ultimately death angel. Anton and I discussed many films over the years, but I frankly do not know if I would have mentioned this one had it appeared before 1975. I think I would have felt it "insensitively intrusive".
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Michael A. Aquino

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#51765 - 03/25/11 09:01 PM Re: Satanic movie characters [Re: Jake999]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



Dr. LaVey as Dr. Lao, yes, a brilliant notion!

One of the chapters from Dr. Aquino's C/S ebook was called
"The Circus of Dr. LaVey" which is interesting.

I have read The Circus of Dr. Lao and found it very interesting, but somewhat of an onion I think with many layers, unless I am overreading it. There is certainly a lot going on in that work.

There are still quite a few films I want to see, particularly the ones the Dr. mentioned in a different thread from the T/S ebook reading list. Those films include the Dr. Lao picture and "Fade to Black." Thanks kindly Dr. Aquino, I will certainly have a look at "Fade to Black."

Loved the story about the pipes of Pan and the magic of music Jake. I am not sure if the Doktor was making up the music in question as he went along, as he said; or else he was being a bit of a trickster and having some fun. Either way there is a magical lesson there, I think.

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#51792 - 03/27/11 05:18 AM Re: Satanic movie characters [Re: Waanzin]
Harvey Offline
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Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 39
Dr. Hannibal Lecter. It needed to be said. The sequel - Hannibal, is the pick of the bunch IMO.

Bela Lugosi as Dr. Eric Vornoff in Bride of the Monster. A very Nemo like character, driven to create a race of "Atomic Supermen". Lugosi delivers a powerful speech which really should not be missed.

John Ryder from The Hitcher, played by Rutger Hauer. I expect opinions may vary, but he delivered quite a performance here.

And of course John Kramer/Jigsaw - aka Tobin Bell of the Saw franchise. This is a very interesting character.

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#51805 - 03/27/11 09:52 AM Re: Satanic movie characters [Re: Harvey]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
Not uber-Satanic as such - I (finally!) watched "District 9" last night. Not only is every character (even the main character) completely rotten and utterly human, but you may notice that the symbol for the mercenaries is a horned goat. It's clearly visible on their chest plates and their vehicle doors, but stylized and not really discernible in other places.
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#51812 - 03/27/11 02:34 PM Re: Satanic movie characters [Re: Waanzin]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2524
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
Not sure how blurry this thread is ... Are we talking about specifically/avowed Satanists like Mocata and Poelzig, or just Nietzschean/Promethean types generally, in which case the doors are open to Captain Nemo, Morbius, Ayesha, and perhaps a whole string of Bond villains ...?
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#51824 - 03/27/11 05:07 PM Re: Satanic movie characters [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I Don't know, kinda both...

I saw a movie last night that I bought a few years ago on spur of the moment.
It's called Mr.Brooks.
I think Marshall, Mr. Brooks alter ego kinda is, but so is Mr.Brooks as it is all a matter of control and focus of intent in regards to getting things done.

I really liked that movie, kinda reminded me of some stuff.
\:D

Morg
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#51848 - 03/28/11 12:33 PM Re: Satanic movie characters [Re: Morgan]
the earthly duck Offline
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Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 37
I think that alice in wonderland has a somewhat satanic plot behind it. My reason for thinking this being while in her waking moments she would have things to stress about which in turn she repressed yet she still looked for a way to solve these problems.
I feel that her constant worries + her constant need for an answer to her problems ended in her manifesting her dreams.
I feel that her "formula" for her "ritual" are given as follows.
The "timing" of the stressful events + the strong "desire" to overcome her obstacles resulted in sir.issac newton's law of relativity which states every with an action must have an equal or opposite reaction causing her dreams of her being in "wonderland" which enacted the last and final rule "action".
When she awoke from her "dream" (others would like to say this would be the time in which the "higher self" is contacted or holy "guardian angel" or much simply put the genius(also known as gennie) and the I'd) which by some great "revalation" gave her the balls to stand up the people who was repressing who she really was by having her do as they wish(puting the term loosely) resulting in her revolting against all who oppose her(which is what I personally think is the puropose of Satanism.)
She became "satan" in the flesh she stood for what she believed in regardless of the out come.
Anyways with all of that said I believe the "alice" the alice in wonderland movies are satanic characters.
I would also like to apologize for the lengthy response.
Thank you for you patience,
Duck

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#51853 - 03/28/11 01:29 PM Re: Satanic movie characters [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Waanzin Offline
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Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 6
Loc: Belgium
Every movie character who follows the satanic guidelines more or less is welcome, but in my opinion there is a difference between a rotten character and a satanic one. Taking justified vengeance is not the same as just being an evil psychopath. Then again, satanic characters in movies have to be evil, otherwise they become the “good guys” and aren’t satanic anymore . Although the good guys can be Satanists, but the main public can get confused if the stereotypes would be conversed. It is difficult to draw a line, so it depends on what your motivation is to say that a movie character is satanic.

To Morgan: I have seen Mr. Frost a few years before I learned about Satanism, and I enjoyed it very much but I hadn’t made the link. Based on what I recall of the movie and what I learned about Satanism, I agree that Mr. Frost fits the profile of a satanic movie character.

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#51854 - 03/28/11 01:32 PM Re: Satanic movie characters [Re: the earthly duck]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2524
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: the earthly duck
I think that alice in wonderland has a somewhat satanic plot behind it.

I don't know that Lewis Carroll had the Devil in mind when he wrote his Alice stories, but they were drenched in allegorical social satire & criticism, of course.

However if you're looking for Satanic characters generally, Disney's classic cartoons are awash with them [and so is his live-action 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea]. Indeed during Walt's lifetime his "good" heroes & heroines were often criticized as being pretty anemic and cookie-cutter, while his villains were all unique & spectacular. As for instance ...

Not to mention that many of the original folk tales and legends which Disney adapted to cartoon films were far more sinister than his "gentled-down" versions.
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#51855 - 03/28/11 01:57 PM Re: Satanic movie characters [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Heroes can be villainous and villains can be heroes... just as "satanic" is in the personality, so too is the propensity for good and evil all in the same plot. A great example of someone with that "satanic" edge to them, even though they are usually the hero, if only in an off beat way, is Peter O'Toole.

Watch his films. Lawrence of Arabia, Becket, Lord Jim, Night of the Generals, Zulu Dawn, The Ruling Class... all the way to his TV movie performances. There's that "O'toole Factor" in each of his characters that's innate... it's a spark that lets you see the wheels turn in his mind on a darker level.

Probably my favorite actor of all time.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#51902 - 03/29/11 02:13 PM Re: Satanic movie characters [Re: Jake999]
the earthly duck Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 37
I agree with Micheal(can I call you micheal?,if not correct me)- don't think Lewis carroll intended on alice being a satanic character, I think it happened unintentionally. I feel that there was a duality which happened in the situation with alice was in order for her to become the hero she had to be the opposing force to the status quo. She had to defy "everything". She gives the feeling of "if I don't do this I won't survive" her persective of things was survival by any means.
Another character of a "satanic" essence is "batman" he lives outside the law in order to be able to do the things that the justice system couldn't. He defied everyone including his mentor according to the new movies and he took what was taught to him and made it his own, even the "bat signal" has its own ritualistic feel to it " you light the sky with his signal and he appears."

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#51915 - 03/29/11 08:10 PM Re: Satanic movie characters [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2524
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
Peter O'Toole. Watch his films. Lawrence of Arabia, Becket, Lord Jim, Night of the Generals, Zulu Dawn, The Ruling Class... all the way to his TV movie performances. There's that "O'toole Factor" in each of his characters that's innate... it's a spark that lets you see the wheels turn in his mind on a darker level.

No kidding. He also did a gloriously corrupt & venomous Tiberius in Penthouse's Caligula. When that film came out, I knew nothing about it and walked into a Georgetown theater expecting just another Quo Vadis or The Robe-type movie. Boy, was I in for a shock!
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