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#52278 - 04/06/11 01:26 PM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: Khk]
Diavolo Offline
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stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't really understand the “error”. I indeed tension the argument by comparing one against another but such can't be escaped. Even if I said they both have similarities since they both provide a method to gain insight, I would only be able to make that statement if I'd compare that which is a method to “insight” against that which isn't. One can not escape comparisons since to see what is, one needs to see what is not.

I agree that there are similarities but do the similarities out-value (without placing importance at who's right or better) the differences?

I'm not sure if I'm "missing" something but if, feel free to point it out.

D.

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#52282 - 04/06/11 02:02 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Hegesias]
Tesseract Offline
member


Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 190
Loc: United States
“Discretion is the better part of valor.” That, and some people’s emotional age keeps pace with their physical age…

“Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know.” It would seem the first step towards a more “violent, lethal” Satanism would be away from the keyboard and monitor...

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#52283 - 04/06/11 02:16 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Tesseract]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
It would seem the first step towards a more “violent, lethal” Satanism would be away from the keyboard and monitor...


This personal Opinion of yours, did you just make it up a moment ago, or was it based on research? As in you researched organizations and discovered that orgs and people active online are pussies in real life? Does using a computer ((keyboard and monitor)) = pussy?

You might want to try telling some of these Mongols they are internet pussies: http://www.mongolsmc.com/


Edited by Caladrius (04/06/11 02:19 PM)
_________________________
Chloe 352

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#52284 - 04/06/11 02:25 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Tesseract]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
“Discretion is the better part of valor.” That, and some people’s emotional age keeps pace with their physical age…

“Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know.” It would seem the first step towards a more “violent, lethal” Satanism would be away from the keyboard and monitor...


I think this is not that logical in its assumption and is more a call to emotion (or result of) instead of solid criticism.

It would be akin to someone in the 60ies saying to Lavey that the first step towards Satanism would be getting away from the pen and paper. It imposes that anyone who writes about something doesn't apply it.

The first step to anything is having an idea; the next steps are executing and spreading (if preferred) those ideas. Doing one does not limit doing the other.

D.

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#52285 - 04/06/11 02:34 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Caladrius]
Tesseract Offline
member


Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 190
Loc: United States
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
It would seem the first step towards a more “violent, lethal” Satanism would be away from the keyboard and monitor...


This personal Opinion of yours, did you just make it up a moment ago, or was it based on research? As in you researched organizations and discovered that orgs and people active online are pussies in real life? Does using a computer ((keyboard and monitor)) = pussy?

You might want to try telling some of these Mongols they are internet pussies: http://www.mongolsmc.com/


You might want to be a little less sensitive and defensive, and look again at who was in my “Re:” line…

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#52288 - 04/06/11 02:42 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Tesseract]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
It would seem the first step towards a more “violent, lethal” Satanism would be away from the keyboard and monitor...


This personal Opinion of yours, did you just make it up a moment ago, or was it based on research? As in you researched organizations and discovered that orgs and people active online are pussies in real life? Does using a computer ((keyboard and monitor)) = pussy?

You might want to try telling some of these Mongols they are internet pussies: http://www.mongolsmc.com/


You might want to be a little less sensitive and defensive, and look again at who was in my “Re:” line…


'Quit Deflecting.'

I asked you 3 simple questions concerning how you came about your opinions/conclusions. You mentally evade them. Let's learn to have an intelligent dialogue. I assume you are intelligent since you seem like a smartass. Reread my three questions. If you still hold your original position, please do me a favour and go to the forums in the Mongol's website and tell them the same thing. And don't forget to give them your address so they can reward you properly with a thank you for being a superhero.
_________________________
Chloe 352

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#52289 - 04/06/11 02:42 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Diavolo]
Tesseract Offline
member


Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 190
Loc: United States
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
“Discretion is the better part of valor.” That, and some people’s emotional age keeps pace with their physical age…

“Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know.” It would seem the first step towards a more “violent, lethal” Satanism would be away from the keyboard and monitor...


I think this is not that logical in its assumption and is more a call to emotion (or result of) instead of solid criticism.

It would be akin to someone in the 60ies saying to Lavey that the first step towards Satanism would be getting away from the pen and paper. It imposes that anyone who writes about something doesn't apply it.

The first step to anything is having an idea; the next steps are executing and spreading (if preferred) those ideas. Doing one does not limit doing the other.

D.


sar·casm [sahr-kaz-uhm]
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms.

Origin:
1570–80;  < Late Latin sarcasmus  < Greek sarkasmós,  derivative of sarkázein  to rend (flesh), sneer; see sarco-

—Related forms
su·per·sar·casm, noun

—Synonyms
1.  sardonicism, bitterness, ridicule. See irony1 . 2.  jeer.

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#52290 - 04/06/11 02:48 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Tesseract]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
sarcasm


And if that doesn't work, been drinking is a great one too.

Gosh that's sarcasm.

D.

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#52292 - 04/06/11 02:52 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Caladrius]
Tesseract Offline
member


Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 190
Loc: United States
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
It would seem the first step towards a more “violent, lethal” Satanism would be away from the keyboard and monitor...


This personal Opinion of yours, did you just make it up a moment ago, or was it based on research? As in you researched organizations and discovered that orgs and people active online are pussies in real life? Does using a computer ((keyboard and monitor)) = pussy?

You might want to try telling some of these Mongols they are internet pussies: http://www.mongolsmc.com/


You might want to be a little less sensitive and defensive, and look again at who was in my “Re:” line…


'Quit Deflecting.'

I asked you 3 simple questions concerning how you came about your opinions/conclusions. You mentally evade them. Let's learn to have an intelligent dialogue. I assume you are intelligent since you seem like a smartass. Reread my three questions. If you still hold your original position, please do me a favour and go to the forums in the Mongol's website and tell them the same thing. And don't forget to give them your address so they can reward you properly with a thank you for being a superhero.


INTERNET -- Serious Business.

My comments were not directed specifically towards “The Temple of Them”, nor generally towards people who discuss philosophy and violence online. I know nothing of these “Mongol’s” you’re referring to, and so, wouldn’t offer an opinion as to how “bad-ass” they might be “IRL”. Neither would I attempt to use them as a straw man…

I did not “mentally evade” your three simple questions -- I considered them, and declined to reply.

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#52293 - 04/06/11 02:57 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SinisterMoon]
nightvisions Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 04/06/11
Posts: 8
KHK wrote "In part 1 my particular interest lies in examining/ discussing the similarities between Xeper and the Acausal?"



Xeper as i understand it is the scarab beatle a common symbol in the occult to represent re birth.

I believe it's explained as i have come into being by the temple of set.

The acausal is the entire field according to ona
The acausal represents the invisible field where your will is directed or where you seek to commune with spirits entities archtypes etc.

Sets use of the scarab beatle and meaning are the said act of re-birth

they are 2 distinctly different things

more than likely this Xeper is a proclamation that they initiated and are reborn


Edited by nightvisions (04/06/11 02:58 PM)

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#52294 - 04/06/11 02:57 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
G-day mate! Thanks for the most interesting reply.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
I assumed respect. I extend the same. I have constructed a form and myriad of forms yes - is there any other way to communicate with human beings without doing thusly? I say no.


Again, with respect - I say yes, there is a way. The way enshrined in the ONA, which is of learning the skills of the dark arts, such as dark empathy, from practical experience.

Words, terms, should follow this acquiring of Occult skills. All the ONA does is point the way - to what lies beyond the forms.

Truth is, the ONA was, and still is to a far greater extent than most apparently seem to realize, the way of direct individual guidance, as in the seven fold way. This seems to have been missed or forgotten in this internet age.

Hence ONA adepts still guide individuals on the personal level. Skills, learning, are passed on from person to person. Practical advice is given. It's just not often talked about, on the internet - 'CoS there's no reason to.

Consider this - how many people interested in the ONA or inspired have done the rite of Internal Adept? How many planning to do so have been given practical advice from someone who has? I personally know two people who have done the rite, and succeeded. They are not and never have been *on the internet*.

What we see here, on forums such as this, and what we see in such things as published ONA texts, are not the whole ONA.

So we still communicate to others of our kindred in the old fashioned way - by knowing them personally, and often because of this personal relationship having an intuitive understanding with them, a communication, which transcends words and *forms*.

The words, the forms, may inspire them initially to seek us out - and that is the primary function of such words, forms. or they may inspire them to go it alone, and learn the hard way. Which is their secondary function. Only their secondary function.

Again, in a personal setting, a lot of communication is non-verbal.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
Do you recognize that there are similarities between the experiences of Long and Aquino as illustrated above?


Yes, and no. Yes, on a superficial level - and no on the level of essence, and source.

Superficial - because both are intelligent, articulate, Occult LHP seekers, and both have decades of Occult experience. Also, like AL (as SB) said to Aquino in one of the Satanic Letters -

 Quote:
We are both aware of the potential inherent within individuals and how certain forms, magickal or otherwise, can be used to explicate that potential....


No, because AL has lived a practical and remarkably diverse amoral and moral life and from it distilled certain techniques and practical guides. He has been touched by, and embraced, darkness - lived the Dark Side, and the Light Side, which I don't think Aquino has. Their experiences are very different and this difference is IMO evident in the nature, the essence, of the ONA - which could be said to be AL's sinister pathei-mathos combined with a little bit of inherited knowledge.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
The tension of opposites is the basis of life


Again, with respect, I profoundly disagree. It is just an assumption about the basis for human life.

For me, the basis of life is acausal energy manifesting via a nexion. This neither implies nor imputes a tension of opposites - it just is what it is.

The majority of humans however do project some causal forms onto this simple process - but that is their mistake, which practical LHP experience in the amoral ONA manner might well correct \:\)


 Originally Posted By: Khk
Without a Tension of opposites you cannot define Anything.


This is the essence of your approach. That of the ONA (and I'm taking my cue from an as yet unpublished text by AL) is to not to define but to experience. Words, terms, only take us so far. What matters is dark-empathy, pathei-mathos, and the overcoming resulting from practical experience of what is conventionally termed Dark/Light.

As Myatt wrote in a recent article - "only the empathy of the living changeful transient moment, and us-as-Being".

Applied to the Dark Side, this equates to - "only the dark-empathy of the living changeful transient moment, and us-as-acausalBeing."


 Originally Posted By: Khk
There you are again, to explain the current of the ONA you have compared it to the TOS.


I think you miss the point, which is that it was you who made the comparison while I attempted to explain the essence of the ONA, and then pointed out, for you, how this essence differs from the ToS/Aquino. The essence does not depend on this comparison - which comparison is only an illustration, not the essence.

In truth, I would go so far as to say that the ToS is irrelevant. The ONA is the ONA. If the ToS ceased to exist or never existed, the ONA would still be the ONA.

The fact is the ONA was brought into being before ToS existed, and it was nearly two decades later that the ONA even mentioned the ToS/Aquino (in those Satanic Letters). That simply because the ToS had proscribed the ONA.

Since then, the ToS - like Crowley - has been the subject of a mere ten or so ONA texts - out of several thousand.


 Originally Posted By: Khk
The similarities that formed ONA and TOS are archetypally identical


Perhaps you should define what you mean by *formed* and *archetype*. Are you using archetype in its ONA sense - as "An archetype is a particular causal presencing of a certain acausal energy and is thus akin to a type of acausal living being in the causal (and thus in the psyche)" ?

Are you using *form* in the ONA sense of a causal manifestation of acausal energies?

But that aside, I also disagree with this statement of yours - they are profounsly different. To start one is amoral and subversive on both the individual and non-individual level (in terms of soceity). The other isn't.

That you haven't yet addressed this practical difference in terms of morality, subversion, violence, practical, revolution, is interesting. For such things manifest the dark essence, the dark source, the practical archetypes of the ONA.
 Originally Posted By: Khk
The star game is a perfect example of tensioned opposites too. How else could it work if people did not tension the black against the white?


The esoteric essence of that game is that the *player* is both Back and White, and then through the flow of both, their changes, their cliology, they move toward a dark-empathic awareness, which brings an understanding, or intuition, a knowing, of the acausal beyond forms and opposites.

The advanced *game* played over a period of many days can induce this type of knowing. That is, it's a type of magickal rite.

Again, I ask - how many people have constructed the advanced form of the star game? How many have played it over a period of many days?

As in the case of culling, and the internal adept rite, theory is one thing - practical doing, another. Discussing it in theoretical terms is not the same as having experienced it. The doing, the experience, takes us beyond words and forms - and reveals the essence of the ONA.

This practical revealing makes us aware of just how different the ONA source is from that of the ToS. The point is the experience comes first, then a personal knowing, them the realization of the difference, and then for some maybe some public texts to outline these differences.

Who so outline? As possibly useful illustrations for those aspiring to alchemically transform themselves by practical sinister deeds and practical sinister magick - like a teacher explaining the works of Jane Austen and Wordsworth, which explaining of one as literature and one as poetry doesn't mean there is a tension of opposites, or some underlying common source of inspiration or even that they're trying to express the same thing. Jane Austen is Jane Austen and Wordsworth is Wordsworth - and we relate to them (or not) because they affect us in their differing ways, not because we are scrutinizing them in some dreary academic way based on some theory we have about some possible link between them. For if we do that, we've lost their emotive practical essence that can affect us in our moment of our reading. We lost their Art, the experiences and feelings they are trying to communicate, through our assumptions about them.

It's not the tension of some theoretical opposites that brings knowledge, insight - but, in the case of the LHP, the practical doing. As in the case of Jane Austen and Wordsworth it is the reading of them as works of literature and as poetry that captures their essence and may bring us some insight.

Thus for the LHP it's not the tension of some theoretical opposites that expresses the source or direct us toward the source, but the practical doing of amoral deeds, of undertaking sinister rites, of undertaking such things as internal adept, of playing the star game, etcetera.

Like I said - practical experience, then the knowing, then possibly attempts to explain to others such knowing.

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#52326 - 04/06/11 10:28 PM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: Diavolo]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
[Re-written] Nice. a breakthrough. You always come through Diavolo.... Alright, let me try to explain the "error".

Everything is tensioned in life against something else. Its the cause of duality. It is not, as ONA says below, the correct cause of life - but the way we have been taught to percieve - it is our traditional mental behavioural inheritence - but it is flawed because it is percieved as being the Only one amenable to perception. The Tension of Opposites can, but does not refer to two diametrically opposed values at extremes from each other such as hot and cold, opposite means opposite, adjacent, beside. Thus all things are tensioned. It may better serve to call it the Tension of Abstracts.

And you hit the nail on the head when you say such cannot be escaped. It CAN - but not when we write or use language - because language stops the transcendence in its tracks because language is designed to describe only linear 3d space(from the Churches decision to create Latin - a unified language of many languages that became English) or if not deliberately designed, is still hopelessly stuck in duality and promptly returns any acausal, non-dualistic, or non-linear insights or thoughts or attempts to share them - into 3d linear space and time. Language re-translates real experience of time and space - its doing it now. (See Chronobet for an analysis of the funciton of Is, or It.) Its inescapable because we have no alternate tools to express ourselves. So the tension of opposites is unavoidable and innate in all language.

So you are right on the money in saying you cannot escape it because to see what is we must tension it against what is not.

Thank you for recognizing it.

The similarities of the Essay and my point - can be explained a different way too.

The Source, through the causal parents of both men, plants a seed. The seed is identical at its birth. As it grows, it experiences the same amount of sun, rainfall, and is given the same nutrients that make it grow into a sapling. Up until this point, both trees have shared identical experiences (not all, due to being in different environoments, but a lot) - for all intents and purposes - they have the same root system, the same sap and the same appearance. THEN - they begin to bear fruit.

One tree bears Apples, the other, bears Oranges. So although the Archetype of their tree was identical - their individual expressions of their fruit are different. One bears the TOS, one bears the ONA. I am comparing the roots - not the fruit. And the roots are the same - carbon life-forms a mixture of electricity and water who record an interest in ancient cultures, who strove to present a living tradition that can change, stopping occasionally over the decades to reassess their group and so on - are shared archetypal similarities. On the plane of FORM, the diversity of their fruit, flowers and so immediately bi-furcates (splits) them into two very seperate different looking trees - but they once shared an identical root system. So the nature of the fruit is irrelevent and not important to the discussion at hand. (But obviously, neither man wants to be compared to the other so there is resistance and a comparison of fruit.) Does that help?



Edited by Khk (04/06/11 10:46 PM)

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#52332 - 04/06/11 11:23 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Morgan]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
"Why doesn't anyone seem to get mad and make direct stultifications to government officials or toward Satanism, or toward the shit we are offered as hay and a barn to keep us as human cattle akin to the oxen."

Simple, because jail isn't nice.
You create your own environment, and decide what to do with the things the government offers you. You decide how to live your life, just like you can decide when you want to die. You decide just what is worth any risk to yourself, and if the benefits outweigh it, you do it.

"Too many are too afraid to voice their views and I can feel it, they watch and let others do all the work."

What is wrong with letting others do the work? Isn't better to be behind the scenes, controlling shit with less risks. Sometimes it is better to let others get their hands dirty, and you remain above the screaming masses. I can tell you, blood is a bitch to get out of some fabrics.

M


The rich are the same as those conceited English who thought they could defeat the Zulu's with shiny silver rifles while sipping cups of tea, the Zulu's, although primitive, were more primitive and warrior spirited than the sheltered English could conceive. I have pride and confidence and back down to nobody, especially authority gets full respect and engagement. Why? Because I don't believe in any law except retaliation. I mind my own business and if people want to risk being destroyed by fucking about then it's their own fault.

The police treat me with respect and calmness because my record shows every violent act I have done was in reaction to stressful situations, I have proactive with riot shields come out for anything no matter what the call is because they know my propensity. I just think "why do people risk escalating disputes in my presence", thinking they are safe to make me stressed whilst enjoying their petty version of violence against one another. I see it as a taunt to me, they are getting a thrill by poking a lion with a stick through the bars, I see apes shrieking idiocy and they deserve a mauling.

Luckily I have fortified any kind of social life to do my best to avoid jail, I go to the gym and play music live, but I do not underestimate the kamikaze attitude of the general society who will repeatedly risk their lives by defining themselves as worthless through conceited luck pushing, I only respect determined and progressive individuals and this includes Satanist. The only time I get put in the cells is when I'm dishing out violence, this is because I have a large family and they attract all sorts of suitable individuals over the years, there's no escaping violence if you're like me, it's impossible for me to be a bystander, impossible for me to hesitate. I'm not passive and I'm not afraid of anyone, I could care less about what I do to nuisance. I'm sure everyone will agree that the law is the only deterrent from killing ones enemies no bother. Too many men have female partners they don't honour and protect, they don't have rights to be with them if they can't defend them in real life, they also teach their children the ways of the submissive coward.

There is no more risk in voicing ideas for change in this shit dishonourable society than there is in keeping quiet and hoping for the best. Clever dialectics or memetic plans will be masterful in ones mind but I am not a mastermind and believe charisma is the only tool of communication that I can use properly. I'm not an advocate of manipulating other's on a Satanist network because I came here to make real communications for want for change, I recognise that dedicated persons are here, intelligent persons are here, I feel I ought to make vast effort because morally decayed society is just not good enough. Western society only looks fancy with it's material wealth but underneath people are gutless, morally decayed and dishonourable, petty, driven by mundane greed for the self degrading shit on offer.

I don't have anything in my flat except weights and laptop, I don't want anything and I'm respectful of people who are confident, I don't want the imposed safety of society or the law taking my personal honour. It's always the same, there seems to be a "it doesn't matter who started it, you went too far" attitude. I don't believe in "eye for an eye" because that mentality just escalates situations with more repercussions, and brings you down to the level of your worthless enemy, I recognise that anyone who fucks with somebody else for no reason is conceited and risking their life and just for that they deserve the severest conclusion.

There's being behind the scenes doing actual work and then there's hiding and watching dramas unfold, which is not the same thing at all. Regardless of what you do if you are a Satanist you'll always get hatred because Satan is a symbol of everything every cultural society hates. Why potter about in moderation trying to prove to one another who is actually hardcore in real life. I don't underestimate anyone who is in Satanism and take everyone in Satanism seriously. There words and their dedication.

Fuck society and fuck the law, it's all a set up designed to nurture the petty and tolerable, law abiding or criminal it does not matter, what gets rewarded is anyone who can show they will "improve by being submissive and less of a problem to the standing of things", paedophiles get new houses and identities after being released from jail, and so do foreign invaders get free homes and a family car, whilst the working class get shit all but more taxes and shit council estate level education for their children. Yes I am ungrateful, I bite the arrogant hand that attempts to feed me shit.
_________________________


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#52372 - 04/07/11 12:00 PM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: Khk]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Thank you for the explanation, I wasn't quite sure where exactly you were going but now I understand and see what you implied.

A while ago I was having a conversation about something somewhat related, concerning different yet similar individuals. Some people share something fundamental; as if there is something quite essential in them which is clearly there to see for those who pay attention, even when all apparent differences tend to cloud it. And there is even a synchronicity in their past which again contains this similarity although in an often quite different manner. But when having to express what “it” exactly is, words seem to fail to explain it as clearly as it is being perceived.

Btw, you hinted at a possibility to escape “tensioning” and it made me curious since, at the moment, I fail to see what method could provide such. The problem I see is that even when we “think” we apply language and thus are subject to it. As such, it would have to find a way around that.

D.

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#52391 - 04/07/11 03:31 PM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: Khk]
nightvisions Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 04/06/11
Posts: 8
<quote>
The Source, through the causal parents of both men, plants a seed. The seed is identical at its birth. As it grows, it experiences the same amount of sun, rainfall, and is given the same nutrients that make it grow into a sapling. Up until this point, both trees have shared identical experiences (not all, due to being in different environoments, but a lot) - for all intents and purposes - they have the same root system, the same sap and the same appearance. THEN - they begin to bear fruit.

One tree bears Apples, the other, bears Oranges. So although the Archetype of their tree was identical - <endquote>



What your getting at is saying the archtypes are the same?
I suppose in a very rudimentary topical sence if your using transformation as this archtype, thats a given.


The same source this i don't see? as they are 2 uniquely different contructs which when percieved puts you in 2 completely different states of mind

ones an egyption collective Set

The other laden with different dark gods

2 mythos


same seed? in a very rudimentary topical sence,

its like a moot discusion you can lump every esoteric path even christian in with this? but then they are all different


the only way i'd agree on same seed is if you clarify that the idea of spiritual transformation is this seed


which makes the conversation topical





Edited by nightvisions (04/07/11 03:37 PM)

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