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#52614 - 04/10/11 02:50 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
On the other hand, I dont know if I even can explain it since explaination is not what needs to carry the message. It frustrates me that I cant communicate my understanding of forms without using them to do so - its like being trapped in a country where no-one else speaks the same language. It's exhausting. For me and probably for everyone else.

I think I will come back when or (if) I figure out some way to speak the language of form without using the traditional methods to do so.

ISS,
RA
Diavolo, thank you for trying to help. I'll try again later.


Edited by Khk (04/10/11 02:51 AM)

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#52623 - 04/10/11 08:38 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm sorry if I wasn't too helpful.

I see both as a manifestation of Will to Power, a reaction against a status quo using a similar approach for rather similar reasons and to reach similar goals, that is when looking at what is underlying it. The outward manifestation is however quite different.

Both created their Mythos and while this Mythos serves a purpose, I can't shrug off the idea the Mythos of the ToS is or was mainly ego-driven. Because of their schism with the CoS, they needed to find something which would establish the idea they, not only did the right thing, but that they were right too. They abandoned something which was “one of its kind” and thus had to be even more than “one of its kind”. I'd say I will remotely consider the option that the “Book of Coming Forth by Night” is genuine but alas, I can't. I cannot read it without spontaneously bursting out in laughter because some passages make me envision Atlas carrying the world on his back but on this occasion, the world is ego and it has been given a name too; Set. To me it is so obvious I am surprised that back in the day, none tapped his shoulder and asked “aren't we overplaying our hand?” But apparently they didn't and either during the beginning, everyone was in on the joke or they were very very gullible people. Nonetheless it worked.

One can apply similar criticism on the ONA Mythos and call it man-made or even far-out but the difference is that AL doesn't take, nor desire, a prominent ego-driven role in it, nor is the Mythos considered that important any participant must embrace it. In the ToS it is different, since god spoke to Mike and thus Mike is right, it is quite defining. When rejecting the very ToS Mythos, there is nothing left for the participant, while when rejecting the ONA Mythos, nothing changes. The difference between “Mike's way or the highway” and “your way or the highway”.

And not only is it defining, it is limiting at the same time. The ToS set its limits and when strolling beyond them, one is committing a “sin”, even when not necessarily described as such, experience and learning are only acceptable and tolerated when the practitioner remains within their established borders. The ONA actively encourages all participants to actively go beyond them, to seek and experience the unknown. ToS prefer to maintain control upon their participants while ONA doesn't care about them; whether they succeed or fail is not their concern.

I agree with you there are similarities beyond the fruits the trees grow but the different taste of fruits is quite defining here.

D.

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#52625 - 04/10/11 09:23 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Diavolo]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
One more then... Diavolo, my departure has nothing to do with you being unhelpful - you were very helpful - but I don't expect you to abandon what you think feel and interpret just to suit my whim. In retrospect it was wrong to force your hand to do so. Please accept my apologies.

Goodnight.

ISS,
RA

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#52626 - 04/10/11 09:47 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
No need to apologize my friend; at no point I felt forced. I do have my views but I don't mind at all to abandon them or look at things differently if it is beneficial.

D.

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#52629 - 04/10/11 11:16 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Diavolo]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
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Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
I hate to sound like a relativist, which is as far from the truth as it could get, but I'd like to chip in with some praise for the different schools of thought discussed herein.

The Temple of Set: since delving into their practices and traditions, I have found much that appeals to me and much that makes sense. Different people see different points of merit. Or demerit. I wouldn't say I consider them ultimately right in their assertions, but the study gave me quite a few new thoughts, for which I am grateful.

ONA: I could as much deny my fascination with ONA as I could deny the sunrise. As a school of thought, it demands far more of its adherents than any branch out there. If you are prepared to experience it, as opposed to just contemplating it, there is much to be learned and much personal baggage to be lost.

Personally, I'm firmly grounded in Nietzsche, who, interestingly enough, is an ideal to both schools. My metaphysical notions were shaped by many schools of thought, but whenever I return to Nietzsche I find that they fit. The ideologies of many Satanic organizations spring from an appreciation of Nietzsche that I couldn't or shouldn't take issue with. The end result, however, generally doesn't fit me. It is not something I exult, despair or take pleasure in. It just is.

I find it hard to dismiss either school of thought out of hand, since I find their esoterics to be of worth when you suspend your own misgivings. I even think their distrust of other schools to be healthy, even while that effectively affects me.

If I were to address the specifics of my points of interest, I'd have to write a thesis of several thousand words, so I won't. Suffice to say that value is to be found in both conflict and contemplation, and I'm glad both ideologies exist. Were it not for Aquino or Myatt, I'd be less enlightened than I am. Of course, the same can be said about other luminaries in here, whom I'm proud to call my friends. You know who you are.

I guess my fascination with affiliation is a recurring theme, by which I try to acquire new insights. I've yet to encounter a memeplex I didn't learn anything from. I just balk at dismissing my other ideas just shy of buying the whole deal.

My own personal views might even be described as insane, extremist, demented or ludicrous, but they're mine, at least.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#52630 - 04/10/11 11:45 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Diavolo]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Yes both are assertions of Will to Power, in these mythos I see the great art of venturing into the wilderness of antinomian thought.

I can see that Diavolo and THEM work through the secrets of the manuscripts and that THEM is very aware of what to do with Satanic paradigms and what means they are for.

I think we can all take and go beyond whatever we are inspired by but the ONA was always more than a mythos insofar as me being suspicious as fuck upon first finding the ONA and thinking "this is just as interesting as serial killers!". What I get from the ONA is insight the same as I get from reading Mein Kampf or other extreme views, what happens is that a synthesis forms in which we see that everything has an opposing angle and that although we have the duality of opposites we can , yet this is the insight into manipulation with the powers of observation.

I found truth in the ONA mythos for highlighting the decayed vacuous platitudes of morality, "ideas about reality" which which society masquerades as "reality". The ONA utterly stultifies the tautological rhetoric of morally riddled with poetic disinformation that deflects from the issue of questions being answered.

This is a means to to reach revaluation from what is intrinsic to ones self, to see everything as meaningless can be passive nihilism whence one had become engaged in existential nihilism—humans are perceived as a hideous mass of subatomic particles sending morality and reason out the window "defunct" hence usual cerebrations such as justification or even reason for murder is not even an issue. But rather to accept the sciences and realse that we are of the earth and that we are designed this way to perceive our ecosystem and in this we see that the feral and bestial way as opposed to the spiritual is the way of the mundane "of the earth".

I have observed something that is both a meme and a behaviourism which appears to act as a transmissible agent amongst Satanist which manifests in inability to empathise with opposing ideas. The symptom is obliviously perpetuated unaware to the demiurge. Much like the terminal disease of life itself you are very unlikely to recognise it in yourself as being an affliction because it feels very nice. Satanist may compensate instead of fixing the problem. The cerebral and somatic demiurge is obsessed with viewing his unequalised brilliance, bodily aesthetic or ultimate sexual performance and that he has everlasting, all conquering love and passion but for this the demiurge requires excessive worship from his clay sentients. I know the demiurge very well. The demiurge assumes he is all powerful and he is foolish for not acknowledging his flaws as he assumes he is already at the pinnacle of omnipotence. Destroy the demiurge! What does not kill makes stronger. Destroy to rebuild.

Satanist can become deeply entrenched within one paradigm—utter vulnerability. Chaos magicians tend to banish beliefs often and paradigm shift into atheistic scientific paradigms.
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#52634 - 04/10/11 05:18 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Nietzsche was carted off for being insane. I am all about Nietzsche, I can say I'm grounded there because there is no stagnation in self overcoming and questioning morality. Nor is nihilism what contemporary Christian scholars would make out. We can see that the devaluation and revaluation of values is necessary for active progression as nihilism is inevitable to deny this or to simply be unaware, is to be consigned to decaying forms. We destroy to rebuild. I feel that Nietzsche gets quoted a lot and parroted by Satanist' but rarely applied? I also see those who push boundaries with the ideas.

We can see Nietzschean ideas in Anton LaVey's Satanism, Temple of Set, and The Order of Nine Angles and with this I always went back to the source of these ideas in Nietzsche's works. Much like how I go back to Peter J. Carroll's scientific concepts when working with paradigms, ONA was always used as a meta-belief (a consistent one no less) but all comes back to nihilism.


I see propensity in the Anti-Cosmic values and yet I never see anyone on this site or anywhere actually understanding anything of the paradigm and instead simply parroting lines from the texts or dismissing the values as to no means.

I haven't found anything to rival the brutality of Nietzschean philosophy in any Satanism though: cold hard reality revivifying human animality, most devastating and necessary.
_________________________


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#52635 - 04/10/11 06:57 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Hegesias]
Caladrius Offline
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Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Hegesias
... ONA was always used as a meta-belief (a consistent one no less) but all comes back to nihilism.


I see propensity in the Anti-Cosmic values and yet I never see anyone on this site or anywhere actually understanding anything of the paradigm...


I've read just about all ~5000 pages written by 'Anton Long,' [ONA] as well - more importantly - the hundreds of pages written by David Myatt for his The Numinous Way, plus everything having to do with Reichsfolk.

Never have I come across anything in the ONA and DM's expression of the wordless, that feels like "nihilism." [Who knows, maybe I dislike nihilism so much I just filter it out].

After reading Myatt's personal writings, and seeing the same thoughts expressed thru "Anton Long," how do you extrapolate nihilism out of everything. Such that you end up claiming that everything ever expressed by the ONA goes back to some nihilism?

I am curious to know where you are getting this idea from. Show me a few quotes by any of the major contributors of ONA memes that states that the ONA is fundamentally nihilistic. I'd like to see what you are reading that I am not. This is bugging me.

The other thing bugging me is your inability to distinguish the ONA from the ToBL. I speak of your continuous talk about this idea of "Anti-Cosmic" gibberish. That's cool if this Anti-Cosmic concept is your cup of tea, but ONA has nothing to do with this concept.

The "Acausal" aka "Life Force" is not "anti-cosmic" in the sense that "acausal" "energy" seeks to destroy the maya of the physical cosmos aka the causal. The Cosmos is BOTH causal+acausal. The causal part being a condensation of the life force.

There are certain issues or complaints I have with the ToBL, and it irritates me to have ToBL stuff mixed with ONA.

The first issue is that whoever put the ToBL together was one who was influenced by Hindu mysticism, but was not a native of this matrix. Being an "outsider" merely influenced by Hindu mysticism this person utilizes Sanskrit words in erroneous ways that do not make sense to someone who comes from a people or culture that speaks a language descended from Sanskrit/Pali [such as myself].

One example is the level of beings the ToBL names [I can't remember where I read this, but it was offensive] where they use the word "Bhava." Normally the word "Bhava" does not or is not used to denote a Being/Entity. The word means to "Exist," or to "Become," or "A State of Being." The word for a being/creature - animal on up to gods - is "Sat(a)." As in Sat meaning creature or animal; Sat-Manussa meaning Human BEING; Sat-Dev/Dep meaning Luminescent Creature or "god Being." Bhavachakra is not a creature or Entity. Bhava means Life/Existence/Becoming. Bhavana is the Pali word used by the Buddha to denote "meditation" of certain kinds that calls things into BEING or that causes one to BECOME a new person in a new state of BEING.

The other issue I have with with the ToBL is their use of Maya [anti-cosmic] without knowing where the Hindus got that idea from and why it exists in Hinduism today.

The idea of Maya developed early during the decline of Brahmanism when Buddhism became the official religion of the Empire. Because of its official status, Brahamanism began to decline.

During this time the early schools of Buddhism developed a line of thought called Pacchaka which would later be called Vibhajjavada. Pacchaka basically means to See With One's Own Eyes.

The idea was to use Pacchaka with Dhamma. Here Dhamma meaning Natural Phemomena. The idea was to Pachhaka Dhamma for the Paramattha Saccha.

Paramattha saccha meaning the Obvious or Ultimate Truth, which is above sammuti saccha or agreed/conventional truth. Paramattah saccha are Actual facts of suchness and things that are Obvious. For example the dhamma/phenomenon of the Sun is a paramattha sacch, it is obvious and is beyond consensus, agreement, and conventional truth. The sun just is.

The early Buddhist philosophers thus ended up stating antagonistically to the dwindling Brahamanists that with Pacchaka, they can study natural phenomena for the Actual Facts of reality [paramattah saccha]. Therefore, what things cannot be uncovered or observed in natural phenomena is not Actual and Factual.

This was a big threat to Brahmanism, because they had thousands of gods that cannot be observed anywhere in natural phenomena. So to counter the early Buddhist idea of basing Truths on the Actaul Stuffness/Phenomena of Nature, the early Brahamanist philosophers invented the concept of Maya.

Basically they they were saying: "Oh yeah, well the whole physical world is an unreal illusion, therefore what truths you extrapolate from this illusion is inherently untruth. The real world is beyond the illusion, where we base our truths. Therefore our truths is True and our Gods are real."

So anyhow; I would like for you to explain to me exactly where in the ONA - quoting writings - where the ONA states that it agrees with this idea of Maya, Anti-Cosmic mombo jumbo. Where in the ONA does it say that the causal universe is unreal, an illusion, a prison, which must be destroyed by letting in acausal force to annihilate the physical universe?

The very fact that you and I and animals and trees are alive - endued with Life Force [acausal per Myatt/ONA] suggests that acausal "energy" does not destroy the causal universe BUT in fact adds to it, animates it, with life.

How do you claim the ONA yet mix ToBL stuff with it and assert or claim that ToBL worldviews is ONA? Where in the ONA does Myatt and Friends state that ONA world-model/weltanschauung is Nihilistic and anti-cosmic. Show me. Not your interpretations, personal understandings, or extrapolations. I'd like to see actual writing by Anton Long/Myatt and others top contributors such as Beesty Boy, etc.

The ONA and the ToBL are not the same things. Can you tell the difference? If you can, stop stating that the ONA is nihilism and anti-cosmic. But please explain to me what this "anti-cosmic" paradigm is. I'd like to know.


Edited by Caladrius (04/10/11 07:14 PM)
_________________________
.:.gone fishing.:.

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#52641 - 04/10/11 10:34 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Caladrius]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I can't say I have read any of The Numinous Way but Reichsfolk is interesting but I only see propensity for subversion, I was actually motivated to buy Mein Kampf from which I got piercing insight into will to power.

Ok I will try and answer your questions. I am not as heavily learned as you on the ONA but I own dead tree editions of NAOS and BBoS and read the older ONA MSS (I like to say dead tree edition and yes I wasted money of shit Lulu.com extortion site because The Heresy Press was down for a while). Anyway I was suspect of the newer stuff when it re emerged a few years back, I'm like this to accuse the most appealing things of being bent, I even made claims to the owner of mysatan that he was a Muslim and some of the ONA sites were being infiltrated by Christian law official spies. *cricket sounds*

In regard to.

"We can see Nietzschean ideas in Anton LaVey's Satanism, Temple of Set, and The Order of Nine Angles and with this I always went back to the source of these ideas in Nietzsche's works. Much like how I go back to Peter J. Carroll's scientific concepts when working with paradigms, ONA was always used as a meta-belief (a consistent one no less) but all comes back to nihilism."

So "All comes back to nihilism" was simply a nod to Nietzschean ideas of active nihilism being present, I also mentioned that I recognise those who push boundaries with the ideas. "All comes back to nihilism" (intentionally) could have been taken as a negative connotation or a positive connotation that no matter what beliefs we have we eventually become victims of those beliefs unless we take control and make a revaluation of values. Destroy to rebuild comprende? I am often two voices speaking.

That being said, and hopefully appearing as words of mere insanity by many but able to be understood by a one Caladrius, I will address the stimulating questions asked.


Firstly I was not comparing as I was listing three useful paradigms I have used to negate societal ways of thinking. The Anti-Cosmic and misanthropic values being "influenced by" The Order of Nine Angels manuscripts and not the other way around. That the acausal being the Chaos permeating nature and making us alive is looked at from quite different positions in the two orders (MLO and ONA) and there are seemingly opposing conclusions coming from common premises or missing premises, regardless, Anti-Cosmic is anti demiurge, the bastard demiurge is only the phenomenal form of it's idea—the ego cultivated world by which the individual is shackled, see?. A vast difference in rhetoric and metaphor between the ONA and TotBL, whilst ONA is direct with subversive teachings and subtexts for practical means whilst TotBL is centred on the individuals deprogramming by design and is a nasty piece of work beyond what I have seen people display an understanding of. This view is based on what I see beneath from a psychological and scientific atheistic perspective. Bare in mind I am immensely nihilistic and devalue and revalue the knowledge that I turn within myself to synthesise understanding, this means I do not listen to the parroting of others on Anti-Cosmic Satanism or otherwise things they wish to portray knowledge of whilst deflecting from the issue of any personal understandings having being synthesised.

Your questions will be difficult to explain answers for in few words and I will attempt to paint you a holistic picture as I have an inability to plan and I am impulsive. I hinted at "everything" coming back to nihilism. Why? Because I don't look at beliefs as solid and sound life parameters, none but nature, I don't wish to decay in the stagnation of the decayed beliefs of others, I take inspiration and go forth. You must understand that the word nihilism is used by those who are set in their beliefs and have a bias toward the idea that threatens their own way of life. This is something hard to explain from the different viewpoints so I will have to be two voices speaking to reveal what they are describing in between.

Religiously created abstractions and names of gods is nothing to do with the existentialistic values of the Atheist individual I would think? Archetypes in Satanist paradigms are only flag poles in the mind to work through understandings, my understandings, which relate more to psychology and the mundane which is nature, I synthesise what I see beneath it all and come to simplicity. What do you see around you? People and they have created shit haven't they, they are rotting in the shit that they have created. What do you see beneath Satanist paradigms? I see something useful and extreme to apply. I think, what will this do for my life through "my" mindset.

Nietzsche saw nihilism as the consequence of the “death of God.” and in this it ought to be understood that nihilism is not limited to that decay of only that belief. "our" Satanist morality is not Christian morality you may say that you are "amoral" or "immoral" but these are oppositional terms denoting that one has denounced conventional morality, and subsequently created your "own" morality which you yourself have come to "realise" is intrinsic for you which I will describe at the end of this post (if one has not come to begin the revaluation of values then one is with passive nihilism.and going nowhere fast). There have been those that say Christianity is weak and shrivelled so Satanist waste there time with pointless iconoclasm. Such is true insofar as iconoclasm will not effect the subterranean rooted conspiracy of Christianity. Society is Christianity, the decayed morality of atheistic society is passively nihilistic, in this I mean that the withered morality and thinking of Christianity is still present in just about every western person even though they don't pray and don't wear crosses, they perpetuate equality pathos that holds back the natural growth, active nihilism is freedom or Satan is freedom. Nihilism is a very multi purpose word with connotations in different contexts just like the wordplay of "mundane", the word "mundane" in ONA context would be the oblivious materialist who is hubris in thinking, he is top of the world because he has a life with all the worthless junk that everyone is supposed to have because the TV told him this is the way to be for "happiness"....inwardly nauseating to look at. Yet mundane can be "of the earth" pertaining to nature and ones will to be the meaning of the earth. I always refer to myself as mundane on purpose and certainly not relating to societal mundanity..So nihilism left unchecked, what does nihilism in this context do? Look around you at the "mundanes".

Society's structure is based on the belief of God and the Christian set of morals whether you like it or not and so are the courts of law. When the people do not believe in God and still live by the values of Christianity, we have passive nihilism which is a means to an end, oblivious meaninglessness, utter tragedy with smiles. Come now, look at xmas time, all the Atheist are celebrating the unclean birth. But it's just hanging shit on a tree right? — an understatement about a dead and meaningless routine where society is an empty husk of Christianity and so are the people. Passive nihilism. Oblivious nihilism.

Understand this. Only through the deconstruction of this society's decayed values can we make new. Every purely moral system ends in nihilism. To understand that active nihilism is not the same as passive and oblivious nihilism, to be aware that the devaluation of values is necessary to the revaluation of values. Extreme positions are not succeeded by moderate ones but by extreme positions of the opposite kind. Whence comes the belief in the absolute immorality of nature. Active nihilism as a sign of increased power of the spirit and "this" nihilism is "freedom" from what you see around you. The sobering recognition of what is will to power and a determined revaluation of values coming into focus, ones intrinsic values.

Satan is freedom, we progress or die.
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#52642 - 04/10/11 11:41 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Hegesias]
Caladrius Offline
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Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Hegesias

"We can see Nietzschean ideas... these ideas in Nietzsche's ... "All comes back to nihilism" was simply a nod to Nietzschean ideas ... Nietzsche saw nihilism as...


Yes, yes, yes, "Nietzsche said this and that and the other things."

Seems as thoe Nietzsche is the most popular guy ever to walk the earth to the counter-cultural Westerner?

Which is fine. My personal little bug with this Nietzsche thing is a cultural thing. Being Eastern in culture, I am aware of OTHER philosphers. Some dumber than a Western philosopher, some more insane than a European philosopher, but some who existed hundreds of years before the Europeans were Free to think and ponder who were just as insightful.

Nietzsche is just a ripple in the Human Pond of ideas and philosophical rambling. One that many Satanists make into a demigod.

My whole personal attitude and feelings regarding philosophical ramblings of others is that it's all crap. I hate philosophy. If I like any type of philosophical rambling - which anybody can do - it's my own philosophical rambling that I can tolerate most of the time. Other wise it's BS. It's just some clown juggling ideas in their heads. I can be a clown and juggle ideas too.

I like to keep thing concrete: on the real, science, physics, zoology, violence, gangs, crime, shit I can tough, smell, see, hear, taste, experience right? The last thing I personally want is to read about or hear someone ramble about reified crap. I can do that myself.

The point is Nietzsche is nobody. He may be somebody to you and others here, but to the other 7 billion humans who is he? Have you or I heard the philosophical ramblings of every wise guy in the East of West across the vast expanse of Human History? No we haven't. Yet we make idols of so very few, and believe that what junk they juggle is worth more than what may have been said before, or what you or I ourselves can say or juggle on our own.

We each have the same 3 pound brain, and access to the same body of Phenomena. If I want to juggle ideas and speculate about reality, I can do it myself. At least I believe I can think for myself to a certain extent.

When somebody like me uses the word "mundane" in context to the ONA I mean it as the Pali/Sanskrit words "Loka," and "Anariya." Loka meaning "world," not the planet world or the earth or the jungle world, but the "world" meaning the common public or populous in toto. Thus, Lokuttara meaning "transcend" does not denote a transcending of the earth or planet. It simply means to strive to go beyond the common public/populous. Anariya meaning An [Non] + Ariya [Noble/Arya].

Most of the time when I or many ONA associates want to refer to the planet earth we use the word "Earth," and when we want to refer to the jungle, trees, life forms in the Earth, we usually use the word "Nature" with a capital N.

Technically there is nothing "mundane" about Nature or the Earth. Faggot egalitarianism and equality does not exist as a natural ethos of Nature and Her organisms [see 19th Enochain Key or Mother Nature]. Nature is not common, She is Diverse, each part is Unique, and every organism has its own Way of Life specific to its species. This is the total opposite of the common populous of any given city/state, where if you are different and do not act, dress, think, and do like them you are hated. To call Mother Nature "mundane" is an insult.

Technically the ONA is not "misanthropic," in the sense that ONA exists to hate and kill people. ONA is more Collectivist, more people oriented hence: tribes and clans and associates, and Duty, Honour, and Loyalty. Duty, Honour, and Loyalty to who? To OTHERS. I personally think it is slightly hypocritical or childish to claim to be misanthropic, but yet yearn for social interaction on or in or with the cyber medium or any other medium where the so called misanthropist can interact with OTHERS. The Unabomber I think was the only true misanthropist.

As far as the ONA's stance on Nietzsche and others goes, I will quote a MS for the record, which will end my interactions in this thread:

[Begin Quote]
Source

"Nietzsche, Darwin, Others, and The Seven-Fold Sinister Way"

For many many decades, the iconoclastic weltanschauung of Nietzsche has been used, and Nietzsche’s works approvingly quoted from, by many of those who claim to adhere to Occult ways such as The Left Hand Path and to various flavours of Satanism, and also by those who admire or who claim to follow the causal form known as National-Socialism.

In a similar manner, many such adherents of such Occult ways or such causal forms write and speak approvingly about what is vulgarly known as the survival of the fittest, or about principles of so-called social Darwinism, or some other such vulgar -ism.

But such use of the weltanschauung of Nietzsche – and such quoting of the writing of that author – are irrelevant from the acausal perspective of The Seven-Fold Sinister Way, just as the use of the works and theories of any person, any author, any theorist, whomsoever they are, is irrelevant. Why? Because such a use and such a quoting and such a reliance upon, are redolent of the neophyte, the new Initiate – of someone at the very beginning of our Seven-Fold Way; someone who, having been inspired by whomsoever and whatsoever, has to then move-on from admiration, emulation (and other such neophyte things) toward and into a direct, practical, and personal experiencing of Life and of the sinister which is an aspect of such Life.

An example may illustrate this. The weltanschauung and some of the writings of Nietzsche may enthral many an adolescent who possesses an instinct, or an aptitude, for the sinister; but as that adolescent experiences the passion, pleasure and the longing of a deep personal love, and the ecstasy, trauma, and personal loss of physical deadly combat – and other such personal affecting experiences – then, if they are of our kind, they grow and mature, drawing from their own, unique, pathei-mathos, a very personal, a very direct, knowing of themselves and others. Thus, the affectations, the inspirations, and the petulant arrogance, of their early learning years, of their adolescence, are left behind to be replaced by the beginnings of that natural wisdom that slowly emerges from within themselves. In brief, they move toward being mature, self-aware, individuals who are not deceived about themselves, with this moving toward usually taking a certain duration of causal Time, often of two decades or more.

Similarly, the sinister novice, following our Seven-Fold Way and undertaking the tasks, the Grade Rituals, the Insight Roles, of that Way, changes and grows, by the inner alchemical process that is the essence of that practical Way. Thus do they, also, if they successfully journey along our Way, move toward being mature, self-aware, individuals who are not deceived about themselves, having awoken, drawn forth, experienced, understood, and integrated, their latent Baeldraca, with this usually taking a certain duration of causal Time, often a decade or more.

In contrast, those who do not possesses an instinct or an aptitude for the sinister continue to wallow in such adolescent things, lacking as they do direct, practical, life-threatening, experience of not only the sinister but of Life itself in both of its causally-objectified aspects of Light and Dark. Thus do such individuals remain mundane, and thus do they continue to use and rely on the works, the words, the -isms and the -ologies, of others, and thus do they approvingly continue to quote the dead words and the texts of others, and thus does such quoting of such dead words and texts mark them as mundane.

For all such works, all such words, all the theories – of others, whomsoever they may be (including a certain Anton Long) – are only and ever, at their very best, an affective beginning of, an inspiration for, a personal journey that is always new, and is now, has been and always will be, practical, a direct learning from our own pathei-mathos. After this journey begins, the works, the words, of others, all -ologies and all -isms, are and must be discarded, replaced by our own learning, by the inspiration that is our own life; and which new learning, which new inspiration, of ours will and always should be discarded by others, when their own turn of pathei-mathos arises.

This is the real essence of our Sinister Way – a way of useful and practical techniques which provoke inner, alchemical, change within individuals and which re-connect us to what exists beyond our still inherent causality. The words, the forms, are only words, forms – causal, temporal, vessels of the beyond-acausal wordless essence. An essence which has to be experienced, known, presenced, understood, by each and every individual in their own way in their own fateful species of Time, and which fateful species of Time is, in causal duration, much shorter than would occur without such a journey along such a Sinister Way.

Thus it is, as mentioned so many times before, that the Order of Nine Angles – as for instance the presencing that is the Seven-Fold Way and the presencing that are our Dreccian nexions – is only and ever a guide, an inspiration, a useful map: a means not the goal; a kollective of individuals whose own pathei-mathos may be learned from, may be inspiring and useful; and a kollective of useful and practical techniques and useful nexions which have been shown by experience to work in the necessary wyrdful way, and which thus can awaken, draw forth, the Baeldraca of individuals and move them toward experiencing, understanding, and integrating this new living being which was nascent within the separate individual we once perceived ourselves to be, but which is us and yet of all other Life, presenced in both causal and acausal form and what exists beyond and between all such forms causal and acausal.

For it is from such personal, direct experiencing, understanding, and integration, that affective and the necessary outer and inner change, and thus wyrdful evolution, occurs – a wyrdful evolution both individual and Aeonic and in a species of Time which, in causal duration, is much much shorter than might occur without the acausal presencing that Adepts are.

Thus it is that Adepts – and those more evolved along the sinister way – not only consciously participate in their own wyrdful evolution, in that of our human species, and that of the Cosmos, but also are and become such wyrdful evolution in such a varied presencing of causal and acausal forms, until, finally, they egress beyond all forms to become, to-be, of the living Cosmos itself.


Anton Long
Order of Nine Angles
122 Year of Fayen

[End Quote]

In conclusion, "nihilism" and "anti-cosmic" has no place in ONA Proper. This is not to say that the individual ONA person/initiate can see value in that stuff. But if we get off on such things, it's a personal matter and not an orgy [an ONA thing] \:\)




Edited by Caladrius (04/11/11 12:30 AM)
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.:.gone fishing.:.

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#52658 - 04/11/11 09:37 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Caladrius]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm not that dismissive to philosophy and I don't really think you are since all we do is based upon philosophy which provides motives and objectives for experience, out of which the gained insights evolve the very philosophy that was the catalyst of them. I might be wrong but what you dislike might maybe be the complete adaptation towards a certain philosophy instead of making it your own and adapt, remove or add that which suits you better.

I am rather fond of Mad Freddy but I doubt very much he was a nihilist. Still, he did groundbreaking work here and anyone delving into it will find quite a good start towards liberating themselves from the current ideological dogmas. In a way, he is hinting at a path not too distinct from ONA. But he's not the end of all things, as ONA isn't.

I agree that we are culturalists when it comes to placing importance upon philosophy. The West tends to only value that which is provided by the West and there are great insights to be found in the East. Sadly most are either unknown, quite hard to understand or popularized into a Western pop-philosophical package.

D.

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#52659 - 04/11/11 09:47 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Caladrius]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Wonderful. Your posts are excellent.

I will use mundane to describe Nature, jungles and trees or whatever environment is not important, what is important is to recognise the cold hard reality within nature and that nature is freedom. My realm is beyond the false numbing environment of morally decayed society who live in the graveyard of god and materialistic compensatory shelter, it's far from mundane and more like they are delusional, from my angle I am the mundane and quite a lot of others are something alien—tragic plastic smiles, like apes raised in cages eating their own dead infants not knowing any better. Only cold hard reality for me thanks and it's not sinister or anything to do with anything mystical or otherwise esoteric, my esoteric knowledge only goes so far as personal empathy and the powers of observation, it's nothing special. Also I'm not really all that sinister, I don't think like that, I'm just beyond conventional morality and make decisions based on necessity, I treat enemies as a chore—calculated and dispassionate as violence is something I'm used to and nothing to get exited over. My enemies not merit special torture but rather a quick removal like unwanted rubbish. Although I have administered immense emotional trauma to certain enemies this was when I was younger and tantalised by such things, now I prefer a quick dismissal as to regard the enemy as waste that I won't even empathise sadistically with.

I'm just a man, there is nothing special about me at all I am equalised with the ever changing environment, I am not part of any progressive movement nor have I think I have attained enlightenment or mystical connection with nature and the cosmos. Nihilism is one of the most complex issues to explain and simply parroting lines of Nietzsche is not something I care to do. Others may be able to amass a world of knowledge on many scholarly subjects and have more experience than me in real life and philosophies but I can hardly manage to address all the thought provoking issues in these few books I have, I have stuff to work with for years regarding Nietzsche's works and maybe it's because I'm slow? I certainly don't idolise Nietzsche, though the innumerable philosophical questioned raised by him are more relevant today than they were back then. For my environment and where I am self overcoming and will to power is very relevant. I actually equate to Bruce Lee's Taoism and philosophical concepts more than any Satanism. The freedom and propensity of Satan is innate in me and thus to live in this societal environment I require calmness and flexibility.

I'm not a scholar or a theologian, I am just a common man who has become tired of court trials for unavoidable violence, people are incommunicable and don't realise they are vulnerable to people like me and wade in displaying unstable disposition and propensity to be a problem. Understanding what is relevant to my environment is paramount and I am not "based on Nietzschean philosophy", philosophy "and" a scientific outlook is a means to understanding my own self and because I am impulsive and violent, I act first and think after and have no need to be sinister or to treat the world as anything threatening because I'm lethal and sure of it. I am the apparatus and scientist performing the ongoing experiment of life. If I am not familiar with the apparatus which is me, I cannot make a sound observation nor could I progress and upgrade my specifications if I was unaware of my lacking. Understanding of the human species, in as many ways, helps me avoid jail time. My freedom is most important. I do not exist to hate and kill people, those are collateral consequences of dispassion as I was born with violent propensity, my hatred does not burn not like a lively flame but deep like slumbering coals. My hatred has no emotional attachment as enemies are not worth a reaction other than to shut them down, I see violence as logical and necessary and nothing to be motivated by, I'm way too important to base my life on crushing insects, just sometimes the sick irony comes round where you face jail for having done so.
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#52669 - 04/11/11 12:41 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Hegesias]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
You know I enjoy your posts and this should not be considered criticism on your part as much as some conflicts I see within nihilism as a practical philosophy. I agree that the world is devoid of meaning and that all that is attributed is “made up” but in some rather ironic manner, the nihilists do the same; their very world without meaning or value is in what they see meaning and find value. It is the inevitable flaw of humanity that it is cursed to grant meaning to something and that can only be escaped by ending to be human and even that escape is full of meaning.

As such, we can't but erect a castle even when fully realizing it is built upon quicksand.

D.

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#52674 - 04/11/11 02:18 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Diavolo]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
(I had to add a small part of a previous post to make this clearer).

Diavolo that was excellent and I do most appreciate criticism as I attempt to battle my own ego illusions daily, and yes, nihilism is something very hard to describe which encompasses many angles and contexts for instance I could propose that a Christian is perpetuating nihilism insofar as he does not value life due to afterlife beliefs overshadowing the value of life itself yet an active nihilist will devalue Christianity because he does not believe in an afterlife, and yet he will always come back to nature as nature is inexorably and inexplicably "there", it is harsh and devastating and offers no comforts. We come to a revaluation of values from the ground up not from blindly accepting them. In this we see that all of us Satanist do this by choosing "left path".

We learn our own values and morality from experience and ordeals which teach us through necessity. Will to power of the overman, he will inherit the earth and with this inheritance comes the exposure to responsibility. Do we want it? Or are we on the verge of frenzy as an animal in a cage, or do we consider that everyone has to find out who they are to be aware of their propensity for actions before they wind up in a predicament. The innate quality of Satan serves it's own purpose and in everyone's soul he can be felt. It doesn't obey nor submit to anyone or anything. It runs amok. Society's decayed moral and ethical values are against the freedom of Satan and for anyone to assume that their imposed moral "improvement" of the human species does not cultivate repression and frustration about those who are beyond the constraints. Remember..

The necessity to be oneself passes all moral barriers.
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#52675 - 04/11/11 03:26 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Hegesias]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
To return to the basics; the Left-Hand Path is, in its naked form, a survival strategy. The same goes for its cousin and supposed opposite, the Right-Hand Path. Survival strategies are essential for success in life. Both carry intrinsic benefits. The RHP is egalitarian and community-centred, ensuring that there is an establishment that keeps the herd docile and content. Although my description sounds dismissive, it is a path that carries definite benefits for those willing to forgo their own priorities in favour of the collective. It ensures a cultural baseline, an ethical norm and a collaborative collective in which herd protection extends to all.

This is, however, marred by the egotistical drives of the human animal. It does not render the RHP invalid, just flawed. The LHP, on the other hand, has its own distinct benefits and drawbacks. It does not carry the ideal of the collective, and does not extend its aegis to all of the same persuasion. Its strength lies in the individual, which is its focus. Excellence, growth, self-development - these are the key ideals. To see reality and oneself without falsehood.

In this, even the LHP is flawed in the eyes of the RHP. It doesn't carry collective protection, doesn't establish a sense of community, doesn't establish a baseline for ethics and decency and doesn't offer safety. To which most LHP factions I've heard of respond: "So?"

It has been my supreme privilege to know the nobility of LHP practitioners who, in spite of their self-focus, decide to collaborate with others out of mutual respect and interest. In my opinion, they are the only true humanists left, in that they appreciate the human animal for its multi-faceted splendour and capacity for greatness. Where the RHP says "good enough", the LHP responds "why? I can do better."

When I praise the different memeplexes on offer within the LHP, it is with this in mind. And no proponent so lucid or selling of modern Satanism than LaVey. He proposed a memeplex of such incredible simplicity and elegance that we would be reduced to fighting over the remnants of his legacy were it not for the intrinsic individuality of the LHP. He was a pathfinder. Of course, he cherrypicked many of his key ideas from others, but the thing is; he did it.

Nietzsche was his ideological forefather, and a noble one at that. In learning about Nietzsche, I have delved deeper and learned more about the LHP than I was able to just from other sources. And here's my point: all sources within the LHP have focussed on a different aspect, and provide a more profound take on key elements within the LHP. That they're at odds and show each other disdain is as it should be.

In existing, the LHP negates the essential meaninglessness of reality.
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"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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