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#51688 - 03/24/11 05:09 AM The Temple of THEM 2011
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Late December 2010, THEM rejoined the ONA as the Australian Nexion. We reinstated Mvimaedivm Wordpress to share our documents and insights and continue to act as a 'Traditional' Nexion offering guidance to those working their way through the Septenary Way, seek to ensure ONA mss and writings remain visible and accessible to all prospective or present adherents.

We have remained traditional despite the many changes occurring within the strata of the ONA and continue to teach and learn about the pre-fayen ONA collection of ideas - concerning Alchemy, Aeonics, Esoteric Knowledge, Forms, The Star Game, The Black Book of Satan, Naos, Sinister Tarot, Insight Roles, The Tree of Wyrd, Dark Gods Mythos, Mythos as well as archive the changing face and mss of the exoteric ONA - and so on. Through our archival section the Black Glyph Society we are attempting to restore aspects of the former/older ONA by reprinting the works and media of the pre-fayen era, including the Sinister Tarot by Christos Beest.

The work of THEM also helps guides initiates through the occult labyrinth of the ONA where many get stuck, hung up on the precise manner in which to do proscribed acts. We encourage people to turn back to themselves instead of giving their power to others and illustrate the underlying mesh and nature/effect/power of forms - such as the power of inert text to prevent a person from thinking for themselves or preventing them from acting because according to the text it must be done this way, that way, or any other certain way. In conjunction with other nexions we assist the forward momentum of individuals toward Individuation or Psychic Wholeness in the hope that a critical mass of enlightened initiates can spearhead a change in fundamental perception of the Self. Much of our work is about creating awareness of the multi-self and a life-centred geometry via the jettisoning of the ego as the sole driver of the Initiate.

Our work is often confronting and unwelcome, precisely because of this approach and the ugly or inconvenient discoveries we make along the way that directly threaten the soveriegnty of the age-old establishment of the ego. Nevertheless, we believe that the way forward to the next evolutionary stage of mental/magical prowess is through an understanding of the application and vagaries of Form.

Since 2006 our aims have not changed, and we continue to strive for psycho-social collapse and to diminish faith in commonly accepted constructs and concepts - believing them to be innately flawed.

~

ISS,
RA

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#51689 - 03/24/11 05:10 AM Sinister Tarot: Theory of Archetypal Resonance [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398


In the Sinister Tradition as espoused by the Order of Nine Angles, the early part of an Initiates training involves creating or obtaining a Tarot Deck. In most cases this Deck is that created by Christos Beest specifically for the task.

The initiate seats themselves before each of the Major Arcana, one a night. And meditates on the image on the card. They attempt to diffuse themselves into the card, imagine themselves exploring the contents, speaking with the characters, following a path and letting the mind run free. This has the effect of making the individuals projections conscious to them – with the ultimate goal being the withdrawl of those projections in order to unveil what is really there beneath the plaster of forms.

For 21 Nights consecutively, the Initiate takes a journey with each card, building a magical foundation of archetypes in their head and with luck allowing natural connexions to form. This is the easy part – the secondary aspect of learning the Sinister Tarot involves summoning in turn, 21 weeks in total, each of the Dark Gods/Goddesses depicted via their own sigil in an isolated outdoor setting.

Following on from this, the Initiate immediately begins an Insight Role – a role that challenges the present ego and engages the individual in living the opposite way to the way they are or feel they are. Such might be a sexual person entering a convent, or a passive person entering the police force. Each role must be lived with demonic intensity – so that not even ones closest friends know it is a role, and indeed many go wrong here and let the role consume them.

What should happen from the sum effect of all these measures, is the alchemical dyssolving; not just on a personal intellectual conscious level of understading – but a deep knowing, even sadness/sorrow of insight – into the tension between opposites and first-hand knowledge of how they dance with one another, falling into one another but never quite fully forming – observing life and its merry manifestations as they shift into the formative, the plateau, the disintegrative, and the flux…

By actually Living the archetypes depicted, projecting them outward, inward and then outward in a synthesis of the first two methods and via extended heartfelt roles that challenge the ego and the identity and encapsulation of self – one can gain great control and connexion with the forces of life and the repeating cycles that govern it.

Thus is the theory of the Sinister Tarot.

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#51691 - 03/24/11 05:48 AM Its All In Your Head [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Whatever people think of the ONA - however smart some may be, or however foolish and gullible - there has always been people around that were affected by it from a little bit, to considerable extremes. The ONA manages to make arguments that go beyond convincing to exacting - they manage to change minds, deeds and actions simply with the power of inert text.

The discussion about culling may very well be theoretical but there have been direct outcomes by the ONA that have and presumably still do lead to violence, terrorism and thousands of other ongoing acts that have their own story to tell. The Tempel ov Blood in NC for instance, Does hurt people, and acts as a cult that exacts punishing regimes and brain-washing programs, humiliation and torture. What draws people into this crazy shit? The Mythos of the ONA coupled with their Vampiric Spiel. Because of my association to the ONA I continually get people asking my advice on joining this or that sect, doing this or that action - whether they did some of them or not I will never know, the road is long and people usually fade away after a few months at best. Those that didn't joined me in the Temple of THEM.

I have done things I would not have thought myself capable of doing, and continue to act as a fanatic of the Sinister. Because of the power of the Mythos of the ONA. Almost anywhere you go on internet forums, the ONA commands interest. Here in 600 club, our nexion has over 12,000 visits. The hynotic allure of the ONA is not by chance. But what exactly is it? - in some respects, like a 3-handed piano player its litery assault manages to his to many keys its bound to hit one of yours.

Where it generates Conflict - it generates involved and brain-stretching efforts to get around its concepts which have a very solid grounding not only in the actual form they represent, but in the refusal to accept that form, there is a lesson too. Everything is a lesson in the ONA - hardship, failure, arrogance, destiny, emotion, whatever it is, whatever you achieve, there is always more. You're always half-done. A lot of people fear having no goal, nothing to aspire to - the ONA is so hard, thats not a problem.

Where it generates agreement it thrives especially when people beign to question its exoteric instructive doctrine - because you learn whether you go with the Septenary Way, or take a different approach and ask, they dont really expect me to do this do they, so why is This here? When it comes to the ONA you're dealing with a leviathan monster of ideas - a rich and poignant history and mythology that has inspired thousands of people. I have spoken to thousands of people over the decade about ONA or something related to it - and still it continues to draw attention and people into its dark arms.

THe ONA makes you seriously think, it cannot be easily dismissed, because even dismissal has a connotation about the dismisser's perception.

Inner turmoil has made me leave those arms many times as I struggle to understand, overcome, make peace with the huge contradictions and energies that assail anyone trying to comprehend the ONA on its many levels - but I think the best of ONA is yet to come and that the last 50 years have built only the foundations, and those forms with a life of their own have not yet peaked.

Moreover, one doesnt have to be gullible to be taken in by the ONA - the Order offers something for everyone, even if what you get is an air of superiority that you 'bested' it with your intellect.
Smart people are violent too - and struggling with autonomy and the conflict of being told what to do whilst struggling to be ones own agent - does get resolved, and people do/have gotten hurt regardless of whether they felt they were master or slave.

But what the ONA has really culled, is ignorance. It has performed thousands of fundamental and lastinf attacks and assualts on the points of view held by a very large number of people - it has torn holes in faulty reason and speculative nonsense, and it has altered, no matter that people dont admit it, the way people percieve IT, and therefore, broadened the average toolkit for how those people view other things. That is real change, because as the individual changes, so do they influence change in others and the outside world.

In the end, it all comes down to a mastery of Forms - no matter how you deliver them.


ISS,
RA

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#51729 - 03/24/11 07:29 PM Intelligent Evil [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
INTELLIGENT EVIL

Wherefore came the urge to commit acts of evil? The Devil.

Like Satan, who spurned satisfaction, spurned contentment and perfection, spurned second place… The nature of evil is to surpass, to exceed and outdo itself.
Evil is an accumulative insatiable monster – a hideous chilling killer – a godless witch-thing that always beckons one more step into the creative abominate - willing to drag those who ally themselves with it well across the line they drew in the sand for themselves, far into the reaches of insane spaces to darknesses and species of horrific cruelty most have only glimpsed in their dreams where the temptation to revel in shredded meat and the rain of blood mates in orgiastic violence.

It is seldom in the name of Evil that acts of evil are performed however and direct attribution is rare. Worship in its name is secluded to those acolytes of the Prince of Darkness – and the many devils that survived with Him into the new world from the old world. The Yezidi, Cult of Kali, Witchdoctors, Voodoo – call directly upon the names of evil, seeking in their mad stupors and crazed trances to elicit the powers and ferocity of the Old Ones to hurtle vitriol upon enemies and friend alike.

It is rather in the name of mindless and mundane events that Evil is given its most common graces. Never called by its true name, evil is the blind idiot god - worshipped by humanity through acts of bovine weakness – through inane or petty jealousies, arguments or excuses, through domestic violence, unsatsified sexual impulses, misunderstandings, envy, anger, pride, love, arrogance… no homage to Evil is proclaimed in these endless acts of worship. Yet dark whispers betray and inform.

Accidental evil is the most common of evils – borne in the cauldron of mistakes others wish they could reverse, deaths dishonours and damage they repent causing, sorries they can never give, emotions they can never take back. Their line is clear. They are the cows in life, unblinking servitors whose virtue is their regret in straying from the Dark Shepherd of Hate and the prospect of having to face their retribution. The quickly angered, the uncontrolled flames of passion, the hert before the head – the strong bent under their own will by uncharacteristic flashes of intensity that engulf and consume. It is is the most common because it is the daily occurance of great activity and movement in the human as it goes about its life with its fire burning.

Mundane Evil is the second of evils – fields of excruciation ingrained in the static slow-moving anomie of the human race whose love for repetition enables the greatest and most insidious of evils to occur through a lack of empathy with the wider remit, oblivious to the ultimate harvest of the connexions of every action to the outcome. The mindless paper-pushers, ink-stampers, button-ups, just-doing-my-jobs that cause that sweetest of delights for the Devil – the twisted knife of unnecessary anguishes. The foreclosures, fines, the punishing jargon of legalities, the financial squeezes, the pressures of conformity, the powertrips of bureacracy, the roundabout chase of keeping everything in place, demanding the impossible. Those who watch on, who deny themselves as pieces on the chess board, these are the souls of mundane evil – for whom fault is a distant dream, and responsibility a pat on the back and some crumbs from the Tabernacle.

Deliberate Evil is the rarest of evils. There are few who seek to perform evil and call it by that name. For most people, evil has no name, and in their wicked light they never consider that they could be evil, nor their acts, so cleverly justified and convicted – surely any other would act the same in their place? Many commit evil, and many call evil by its name, but there are very few who openly drag themselves to Hell in a conscious chariot of cunthood. The book of the dead is full of leaders, kings, dictators, tyrants, villains, scourges, murderers, lovers, whose lives ended the lives of many. But in the name of Peace, Justice, Revenge, Honour, Patriotism, Loyalty, Control, Commerce, Acqusition, Passion, Envy, Anger, Country, State, Nation… For something, anything, other than pure evil.

Why so rare?

There are very few men with black enough hearts to bend to the total will of Evil. For no matter what the particular action, regardless of how concentrated and creative, how unspeakable or horrific - it is never enough to sate the aeonic bloodlust of a creature spawned in the first days of man. A Djinn of Death whose face has been the last vision of trillions of lives in a veritable bottomless chasm of blood. Indeed the very naïve very quaint misnomer by which the rightly fearful name the absolute nature of pure evil is testament to the rarity of those who pass the hallowed gates of mans limits and become something else altogether.
Pure evil does not exist – pure denotes a measure, a limit, a place where evil is at its absolute. The worship in Satan’s Kingdom has no limits, nor does it have a shred of merciless purity. There is no point where evil ceases to seek to surpass itself – it does not persist or exist, it is exist-ing – chang-ing – burn-ing – thriv-ing, eternal and eternally, always seeking to exceed itself.

It is not enough to smash a delicate babies skull in with the back end of a claw hammer, its father must watch while he is raped. His wifes teeth must be smashed out of her face in a shower of splinters of ivory and handfuls of her shit as she loses her bowels forcefed to him. But that is not enough. His mouth must be torn like a zip-lock bag and his throat invaded with meaty handfuls of his loin-fruits and little undeveloped pulsing insides, his violent vomit suppressed and his eyes pricked with pins as he chokes and gags in voiceless horror and helplessness on the slippery sinuous membranes of his own living creation. But that is not enough. He should be raped by a dozen men, their fat dicks pushing his broken baby further down his throat with each thrust until his lifeless ragged body loses its form and cocks lose resistance against his torn wide anal flesh. But that is not enough. He must be torn limb from limb, pissed and shat on, his bones snapped, and scraps of his skin peeled off and trampled on the floor. His family should be locked in boxes with their hands and feet cut off, locked in with his corpse, and forced to fuck each other with the promise of freedom. Fires must be set and the screams of the burning should be recorded and made into a song to be played for kindergartens, sent to the deceaseds loved ones. Burning victims should be let out whilst they are still alive, rushing from the building in agony their skin like molten jelly, to suffer and suffer more than death. They should be eaten alive and ice-cold nails driven through their pulpy flesh as they lay dying, pricking holes in them for fun. But that is not enough. Evil demands more, MORE, MORE! It demands ever more clever deceptions to wreak the maximum amount of suffering, of hurt and betrayal – it demands that the victims first be mislead, tricked, coaxed and relaxed and then horribly brutalized. Evil demands elaborate schemes and set-ups, the inward turn of promises that give rosy glows of love, affection, trust and the downward facefirst spiral into the turgid feces of realization. But that is not enough, the victim must think they have a chance to escape to be free, redeemed – to make their humiliation, agony and unbearable disbelief all the sweeter, the act all the more unthinkably evil. But that is not enough – every drop of salvation must be wrung for evil to reward its servitors, evil must endure – the clumsy experimentation, the confident horrors of purposeful knowledgable infliction, blowtorches to blacken, pliers to extract, solvents to drink, rapes to endure, beatings to excite, the breaking of little bones, the sobbing, whimpering, scream, pleading, begging, crying, the break down of the eyes and the glaze of resignation, the destruction of form under the force of ones relentless assaults – the white-hot orgasm of uncontrolled violence against others. But that is not enough. Mark parts of the body, with hours, so the victim knows the game. Leave unsolvable tasks, ridiculous requests – revel in the defeat and soul crushing confusion of asking the impossible. But that is not enough. It is never enough. There is always more. The flesh collapses before it can bear such levels of evil but there is always more. So the killer stalks another, captures a second, rehearses Hell and horrifies Heaven. The pores of their skin stink of blood, their nails harbour flakes of horror, even as they go to church, donate to charity, smile at you as you drop your kids off at creche. But that is not enough.

Evil goads others who kill one or two or even many – and then it leaves them for another willing to ride the dragon further than the pussys before it. Evil is a force that wants the World. It sleeps with anyone but it will slit its mother from ear to cunt for a bigger cock to ride. Evil takes small sacrifices even though it doesn’t care about them, doesn’t reward them, doesn’t remember them, because it is Evil. It leads men through blood-soaked darkness clawing at their hands and pulling them into travesties, sins, murders, toward perversions, abominations, toward new depths, unknown depths, where depravity lays at the gates like a dormat and new species arcane and sick writhe and pulse. And no matter the effort of the darkest men, regardless of the strength to hold Evils hand as it plunges backward into the abyss, Sooner or later all men let go. They let go because they simply cannot follow Evil to those places – He is too hungry, too unfeeling, too ambitious for men to sate. Those handful of mortal souls who have tried to give the World have been left in utter dejection on learning she now wants the Stars. But for every evil doer of wicked, abominate deeds – there is always one to come after who will see the yawning gaps where more could have been done, where opportunities were missed, through weakness and a weak hand grip, resisting the drag to Hell.

But evil is forgetful, disdainful, indifferent to Today and living only for the ever after Tomorrow. It cares not what you did for it yesterday even if that be the piling of enough skulls to obscure the sun, it craves only the Moment, the Evil Incarnate, not the Evil Incarnated. It bears no qualms in severing its loyalties, revoking its gifts, renegging on its promises – changing the sweet melodies of narcissus. It is always a matter of degree – and of those degrees the evil done unto one man is forgotten where the evil done unto men is a hundredfold, and again where evil perpetrated is a thousandfold, and again where that evil spreads its tendrils into the planes and spans the world as a poisonous spider, its fangs dripping with the anticipation of a godless haze of rabid murder.

For Evil the deed is not the act, it is rather that the Devil is in the details. Architectural Evil – the planning and plotting of Grand Deceits, delicious insidious deceptions played out over days, months, years, lifetimes or Aeons. The salacious pleasantries of the killing face, the elaborate misdirection of diabolic intent, the satanic schemes that crush hundreds of thousands on every front with excruciating patience, that steal and corrupt minds and flesh, set the virtues to burn and brother against brother, nation to war against nation, the vessel upon himself.

This Architecture is the consumation of Satan, the cosmic fucking of the stars and of the Self – the equivalent plotting of the overthrow of the Perfect, of setting Heaven and its inhabitants to burn in the heat of War. The immolatory flame of the Darkest Prince rises up within when we unleash the Beast – but how that flames loves to dance before it sets the world to burn! How it loves to parade its finery before leading lambs to the slaughter, to preen its wings and gloat in unrivalled vanity and show-off its mastery. To revel in its evil deeds, to relate them, savour them, strum them to the screaming in absolute arrogance, hatred and disregard for all of life and everything that is precious including moderation, temperance, restraint.

Evil cannot be controlled – if it can, it is not Evil one is doing but a simulation of off-day good. Evil balks at nothing. Nothing. Ultimately it has no friends, no loyalties, no master, no law. It does not know restraint. It does not know mercy. And it is all that is not. For Evil is the art of the vain-glorious Blood King – the envelopment of the total soul into the black of Hell and the wickedest emulation of the Original Genius – Intelligent Evil.

As for the architecture in the height of virtue, in the lift of samsara and the light of God – their existence serves to amplify and illustrate the extreme sovereignty of the Devil even for the evil man. For the evil man is not Evil – and forever, forever, forever, just a man.

+O+

We Remember the Temple, the Temple of THEM.
2011

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#52174 - 04/04/11 01:11 PM Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
TRAPS AND TRAPEZOIDS PART I
- THE ONA AND THE TEMPLE OF SET -
[COMPARING CURRENTS]
Version 0.1 - April 121 fayen.

+O+


As a witness to the long-standing enmity between ONA and The Temple of Set - I have taken it upon myself to delve into a parallel study of both in several veins - the first of which is merely a form-based comparison of the ideology of the two groups. I have always felt that both groups share far more in common than they seem to admit or notice - due to being constructed on the same traditional esoteric and exoteric principles of form that all groups and currents share as the source of their being.

In Part I my particular interest lies in examining/discussing the similarities between Xeper and the Acausal - the organizational structure of both groups, commonly shared views, and the advantages of adoption of forms by either group.

To my knowledge, there are only a handful of documents comparing the ONA to the TOS - comprising the selection of letters written by Anton Long and replied to by Dr. Michael Aquino that became The Satanic Letters of Stephen Brown as well as a treatise of the different Satanic currents, attitudes and groups and a direct comparison by Anton Long of the differences between ONA and the TOS called The Temple of Set: A Brief Satanic Analysis.

Whilst a Nexion of the ONA - THEM are not interested in championing one group over another and are detached from the outcome of this study. We, as inspired by the ONA, are interested only in dissolving the façade of forms to get to the bones beneath. That is the Only authentic way forward.


ISS,
RA

~


[Extract from TOSd8 regarding historical account of the divergent current of the TOS:] The Church of Satan was a fairly simple, linear story, to which a relatively small number of individuals made specialized contributions over a brief period of time. The Temple of Set may be more likened to an explosion within the heads of a great many individuals of rich and diverse backgrounds, yielding a mix of ideas that would constantly be shared, reconsidered, and compounded. The extent of this corpus of knowledge is already staggering, and of course still continues its exponential growth throughout a variety of communications and records systems.

+O+ In a similar fashion, the unity of three Temples in the 1960’s of Camlad, Temple of the Sun and the Noctulians - a previously underground sect of specialized knowledge of the Dark Gods Mythos, Sinister Tradition and Septenary Way became the Order of Nine Angles headed by AL, who codified and expanded the garbled records and smatterings of the Way into a coherent practical elucidation supplying over time the majority of the pre-fayen corpus of essays rituals and materials. Working underground until the late nineties the decision to take the ONA public and make its teachings available lead to a similar explosion within the heads of a great many individuals of rich and diverse backgrounds yielding a mix of ideas that would constantly be shared, reconsidered and compounded. The complexity of this thriving movement would come to be the Living Sinister Tradition which presenced the Sinister through its initiates and Adepts as a symbiosis of Change that did not stay static but re-wrote itself as each initiate added their own insights, changes and wisdom to the collective pool of ONA resources. Like the TOS, the ONA attracts and suits promethean types striving to increase the collective evolution of humanity by creating a new individual through self-becoming. +O+


[Extract from TOSd8 regarding the Initiatory Elect standards of the TOS:] The Temple of Set presents a somewhat different problem. While I intend that this book be as direct and unambiguous as possible, Setian philosophy requires “initiatory consciousness” - not only an interest in the subject matter but both the intellectual and metaphysical capacity to comprehend it in its ultimate sense. Within the Temple, persons possessing such capacity are referred to as “Elect” and are deemed to have potential for initiation. Those lacking it, best intentions notwithstanding, would find the initiatory experience bewildering, frustrating, and meaningless. Accordingly the Temple endeavors to not admit them, or to disaffiliate them as soon as possible if accidentally admitted. It is much the same with this book. There are aspects of it that may either enter your mind like flame or just leave you confused and annoyed. My pleasure in the former case; my apologies in the latter.

+O+ Likewise does the ONA make these demands of intellectual and metaphysical capacity ogf its prospective adherents and champions Elitism. Hostia, Naos, the Deofel Quintet - standard texts of the ONA were less apologetic than Aquino - though they also sought to break the complexity of their materials down into introductions and steps in as many cases - often the material presented was given no explanation or hinted at further mysteries that could be grasped only by the sagacious. The ONA does not welcome, or uses as it sees fit, those who do not possess this faculty of the Initiatory Elect as tools, mundane or means to and end. +O+

[Extract from TOSd8 regarding the non-finality or Ad Accumulum Infinitum of the TOS:] [Non]finally, The Temple of Set, like The Church of Satan for many years/editions, will be a “living book”, subject to any number of changes, additions, corrections, and updates as various knowledgeable readers comment upon it and/or I refine my own information and opinions.

+O+ Here again does the ONA follow suit emphasizing its current as a ‘Living’ nexion or kollective of nexions which thrive and change as initiates travel the Way - learning, growing, overcoming - and updating, revising, continuously the exoteric and esoteric magic, method, form and mythos of the Order through its consequent nexions. Like the TOS the ONA spurns the trappings of dogma, aiming for a malleable, flexible current that allows changes to be made reflecting the journey of life and its ever-changing flux through individual achievements and realizations which (hopefully) culminate in wisdom. Great pains are taken to point out this ever-change - and that something written long ago or even yesterday may no longer be viewed as valid by the always changing/learning initiate even as footprints they leave in the sand may appear to be fresh and living statements by those who chance for the first time upon them - without a date to mark its timeline. Neither the TOS nor the ONA like the idea of things to be seen as set in stone.+O+

[Extract from TOSd8 regarding the Initiatory Elect standards of the TOS:] As is detailed in The Church of Satan, three tensions and dilemmæ inherent in that institution came to a boiling point by early 1975. Among these: (1) Was the Church of Satan theistic or atheistic?

+O+ Because each individual is expected to discern the answers to this and in fact all other questions for themselves - the ONA’s current leaves room for both, either or neither pending the whim/geometry of the Initiate and the relevance of any belief to the aim of the Initiates dynamic sinister path. S/he may even leave room for all three to co-habit.+O+

(a) Did it believe in Satan and his fellow dæmons as actual intelligent, active, willful entities extent in time and space? Or did it disbelieve in the existence of such beings [along
with the Judæo-Christian God], and just use them for spooky window-dressing in rituals that were merely imaginative psychodramas?

+O+ Because each individual is expected to discern the answers to this and in fact all other questions for themselves - the ONA’s current leaves room for both, either or neither or more pending the whim/geometry of the Initiate and the relevance of any belief to the aim of the Initiates dynamic sinister path. +O+

(b) In this same vein, was there perhaps a “two-tiered” attitude within the Church, whereby its High Priest and Priesthood indeed privately believed in Satan and other dæmons, while at the same time presenting to the public an attitude of atheistic satire? Per this interpretation, ordinary members of the Church were initially/generally treated much as the public, yet selectively introduced to the deeper, true metaphysics as they might
show themselves capable of understanding and accepting it.

+O+ Because each individual is expected to discern the answers to this and in fact all other questions for themselves - the ONA’s current leaves room for both, either or neither or more pending the whim/geometry of the Initiate and the relevance of any belief to the aim of the Initiates dynamic sinister path. +O+

(2) The original Church of Satan in San Francisco had been inaugurated, part seriously, part whimsically, by Anton Szandor LaVey in 1966 as largely a personal vehicle for
advertisement and profit, based upon his colorful personality, extensive knowledge of the Black Arts and occultism generally, and atmospheric house in which to give lectures, hold
meetings, and perform rituals. However, as over the years the Church expanded beyond San Francisco, through individuals and groups having little or no direct exposure to these
specific original allures, it began to become more of an impersonal institution united by common beliefs and ideas. Its focus was indeed Satan; Anton was revered as his High
Priest and Earthly deputy only. Correspondingly the decentralized Church behaved more like a nonprofit organization than a profitable business.

+O+ The same distaste or consternation that Aquino relates is shared by AL - who cites these factors as amongst those that prompted the ONA to surface into the limelight in the late 90’s to ‘reveal the pseuds’ for who they are and share the genuine tradition of the Sinister publicly in what he seemed to think was fast becoming a sycophantic circus. In both cases - the present state of a form (Satanism) prompted both Aquino and Long to take actions of their own to rectify the course as they saw fit. +O+

(3) The more the Church grew, and the more Anton himself became a well-known popular icon, the more withdrawn and private he became. In part this was understandably a reaction to years of being iconized, lionized, media-exploited, and sometimes threatened. He simply became weary of it, exhausted by the demands of having to constantly keep up his Mephistophelian glamor-image. Unfortunately this reclusiveness also extended to the Church of Satan itself beyond his old, familiar entourage in San Francisco. He gradually avoided direct contact with the more distant membership, which had the dual consequence
of forcing them to rely more on their initiative and increasing his suspicion of their uncontrolled independence accordingly.

+O+ The ONA has always been very reclusive and secretive, with only the most determined of initiates making it to Shropshire to gain access to then-acting nexions, and later on only through diligence, showing promise and being contacted privately online by ONA associates and/or members. Long avoids direct contact with almost all internet based communicators and for the reasons cited in ONA: Organization and Structure maintains arms length distance, communicating through go-betweens and elected representatives or via one way posts on the Internets SONAK (Sinister ONA Kollective) points. The ONA could care less about creating suspicion or causing others to rely on their initiative with the desired aim that they would become uncontrolled independants, acting as cells in a mode of leaderless resistance.+O+

[Extract from TOSd8 regarding the reasons for the schism of the TOS from the CoS:] These factors culminated first in Anton’s “Phase IV” policy paper to the Church, in
which the formal standing and authority of non-entourage Church officials and groups were weakened in favor of an informal “Movement” whose preferential membership and
influence would once again be Anton’s sole decision.3 His next, and as it turned out explosive action was to attempt to destroy the independent significance and structure of the Church’s initiatory degree system, by also making both the definition and the bestowal of such titles merely his personal whim.4

+O+ One can appreciate Aquino’s concern here over the guru mentality if indeed that is what Szandor began to exhibit. The conferring of titles within ONA is not performed by the Master (which title is not descriptive of this role) and there are no external ceremonies or celebrations of passing these milestones one sets for oneself.. The premise is that one either does - or they do not. If they do - then they will know if they have reached the respective level described - and perhaps more importantly, whether that title still matters to them.+O+

[Extract from TOSd8 regarding Aquino’s movements against the CoS:] In terms of my personal involvement, The Church of Satan culminated with my June 10, 1975 letter to Anton and Diane LaVey rejecting what I regarded as their critical corruption of the Church of Satan, and simultaneous letter to the Church membership
announcing my disavowal of the organization controlled by them. These were followed by many other Satanists’ resignations, either immediately or after days/weeks/months of waiting to see if Anton LaVey could or would explain and/or correct his startling policy decisions and announcements.

+O+ Whilst the particulars may be different it is worth noting that just as Aquino found fault with the model of the CoS and moved to assert the independant position and foundation of the TOS to correct those faults - so too did the ONA find fault with the model of the TOS and moved to assert the independent position of the ONA to correct those faults - as did the TOT (Temple of THEM) find fault with the model of the ONA and moved to assert its independent position as THEM to correct those faults as no doubt the cycle will continue when somebody finds fault with one or more of the listed groups and moves to assert an independent position of their own… This story is not new, it is often just forgotten.+O+

[Extract from TOSd8 regarding Aquino’s movements against the CoS:] Nevertheless I had to begin thinking about some sort of “reformed Church of Satan” to replace the corrupted one.

+O+ Here again the wheel turns back to its original position - just as Aquino saw his duty to correct the wayward direction of Satanism from the CoS - so did AL see it as his duty to correct the wayward direction of Satanism from the TOS - here though - the chain is broken, wherein THEM and WSA352, both formed groups that did not abandon or disown the ONA but formed independent supports that made a new, stronger Satanic tripod. Though the cycle jostled through many changes and directions as it was stopped from taking its usual course - Ultimately, there was none of the previous attitude of revolution and a throwing away of the prevailing current - but instead a reformation that used the prevailing current in symbiosis. +O+


[Extract from TOSd8 regarding Aquinos inspiration and method for divining the Book of Coming Forth by Night:] I chose the night of June 21-22, X/1975 as an appropriate occasion for the working. The time/events following my June 10th letter to Anton and Diane had suggested to me that an ordinary solution was increasingly improbable, and that evening - as the Summer Solstice and anniversary of my own ordination to the Priesthood five years previously - seemed “traditionally” respectful. I cannot recall the date having any other significance to me at the time than this.
At midnight I was alone in my home at 302 East Calle Laureles, Santa Barbara - save only for my beloved Irish Setter, Brandy. As was my habit with GBM workings, I put a phonograph record on the turntable and set it to endlessly repeat. I chose a selection which I had never used before [and, out of personal regard for the result, have never used since]: Ralph Vaughan Williams’ Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis. My altar was located in the living room of the house. I opened the working in the traditional Satanic Mass, then spoke aloud the First Part of the Word of Set.10 I felt an impulse to enter my study - “the Sanctum” as I nicknamed it - and with Brandy curled up at my feet, sat down at my desk and took up pen and paper. Then, over
the next four hours, I wrote down the words of The Book of Coming Forth by Night.
The experience was neither one of “dictation” [as in Aleister Crowley’s Book of the Law working] or of “automatic writing” after the spiritualist fashion. The thoughts, words,
phrases seemed to me indistinct from my own, yet impressed me as both unique and necessary, as though no other sequence would do.

+O+ The manner in which Aquino describes his inspiration for the Book of Coming Forth By Night is perhaps one of the most contentious sticking points between the ONA and the TOS. What appears as a difference of opinion forms the fulcrum of change where new groups, ideas and ideologies are spawned. Without this Sinister Dialectic of agreement/disagreement there is no divergence from the Same - forms however all create shadows, Aquino’s confession of receiving his message from Set paved the way for the ONA to set up its counter-claim against divine intervention and emphasize its views that all such things arise from Man and that man should take responsibility for such interventions as his own. This amounts to a further denial of the concept of crediting ones achievements to God, by denying the credit of achievements to Satan - or any other entity. In this manner, using Aquinos Book as a tension, did they provide an opposite tension and their foundation for the promethean satanic spirit directly attributable to each individual not a god, of any kind. The paradox however for those who have examined this meeting of origin is that since ONA expects others to find their own answer in regards to who/what or if Satan, or indeed, Anything is - then they effectively lay no objective boundaries down on how this discovery may occur - depending on which statements of their manuscripts you accept are the more valid where contradiction occurs. Therefore Aquino’s experience of manifestation through Set cannot be questioned or challenged as inauthentic. Ultimately, it is with the ONA’s few objective accounts of what and how Satan is found that decry Aquino’s manifestation as inauthentic that the contradiction lies. Since this contradiction occurs - it is reasonable to assume that Long’s 23 syndrome clashed with Aquino’s 23 syndrome in a classic bifurcation of forms which requires various meeting-points where disagreements are found on certain matters in order to springboard off in its own direction. The majority of this perpetual movement is unconscious to many writers - who, due to being determined to plant and water a form or opinion, often fail to see the wood for the trees. It is difficult to determine whether this brief but occasionally re-flaring matter between ONA and the TOS on the authenticity of eachs currents was consciously foreseen as a necessity of growth for a new form or was completely missed in the engrossed engagement of wills to certify what Satanism is or isn’t.+O+

[Extract from TOSd8 regarding Aquinos thoughts on the inspiration and method for divining the Book of Coming Forth by Night:] In Chapter #1 I said that there was nothing overtly sensational, supernatural, or melodramatic about the Book of Coming Forth by Night working. I simply sat down and wrote it. It was not dictated to me by a materialized Egyptian god, nor did the words burn themselves into the pages like the fabled Hebrew Ten Commandments. The thoughts were “comfortable” ones, comprehensible to me within my preexisting frames of reference.
What, then, distinguished the Book of Coming Forth by Night from a mere meditation or exercise in creative writing? No more and no less than a sensation I had then, and conviction ever since, that something beyond Michael Aquino was generating it.
In his excellent work The Psychology of Anomalous Experience, Graham Reed (Professor of Psychology at York University, Canada) surveys the many types of human thought-experiences beyond the ordinary emotional or rational. “Anamolous,” he begins,
“means irregular, distorted, or unusual”.11 He goes on to note that these classifications may be in the individual’s own opinion, or in that of parts or the whole of his surrounding
society. While some such experiences may indeed be symptoms of various forms of mental illness, others are quite routinely a function of healthy thinking and are not at all pathological. [further down] …The Book of Coming Forth by Night fits Reed’s definition of an “experience of self/second type/revelation anomaly”, but does not exhibit or depend upon the two sub- features described above. It has been extensively and exhaustively examined, and compared to other perspectives on reality, by many Setians [and nonSetians] over the
decades - and again here in Appendix #3. Also it has apparently passed well the test of time as a stand-alone document, requiring neither sequel nor supplement to retain its
usefulness and relevance to Setian philosophy. Now perhaps I may productively return to my own sensation, reaction, and opinion the morning of June 22, 1975.

+O+ No exact definition or source is ever given by Aquino as to the origin of the Book of Coming Forth by Night, rather he traverses several options and leave the question open Routinely, as with Long and also with Myatt, do both authors continuously pause in their assertions to pass judgement on their own perspicacity and the source of their expressions. Briefly, Aquino touches on such subjects as Anomalous Experiences and muses on various parallel experiences cited by other authors and records as to what he himself went through to narrow down or at least explicate the vague manner in which his realizations came to him but does not categorically state how. So too do Long and Myatt continuously ruminate on the source and wonder of the ‘Numinous’ and the ‘Acausal’ as something that speaks/spoke through them in a myriad of ways to express the Sinister and the Pathei-Mathos of Life. Both men leave the source of their inspiration open though one professes his faith in the Numinous the other in Set - the action is the same in that they believe in an supranatural force that acts to speak through them. Each of the men remain convinced that their path is the authentic one and where the forms tensioned in opposites meet of their respective creations, I.e. human sacrifice for and against, they clash in an effort to dominate a phantom objective sphere. What is effectively occurring between the ONA and the TOS on an esoteric level is not merely disagreement - it only appears as disagreement in its outer personal manifestation - but is in fact a secret symbiosis with the ONA and TOS using one another to champion themselves in a tension of opposites.
As is the case with all groups that are built with forms - and only through forms can a group exist or be tangible or visible through those forms to others - each of those forms has a corresponding shadow. When you begin using forms you suddenly become aware of the limitations they bring with them and the duality built into the nature of language and communication. Often, you cannot champion one thing without excluding another. And you cannot exclude something, without championing another. Some forms are destined to fight with their shadow - as is the case in regards to the matter of human sacrifice. But what you champion depends on your 23 syndrome. +O+


Extract from TOSd8 regarding Aquinos thoughts on the inspiration and method for divining the Book of Coming Forth by Night:] I did, however, have two immediate impressions: one, that it was authentic - what it claimed to be - a communication from the Egyptian god Set; two, that I myself must take it wholly and sincerely to heart. Even today, after all these years of examination of and reflection upon the Book of Coming Forth by Night, I cannot explain or defend these convictions, but simply recall them. In his “Preliminary Remarks” to his Book 4, Part I, Aleister Crowley discussed at some length the ecstatic vision which each founder of a religion seemed at one point in his life to experience:

+O+ The ONA’s criticism of the TOS was largely in what they saw as Aquino’s acceptance of his role as a chosen one, ordained by Set and what they refer to as his pronouncement of an ‘infernal mandate’. Many, many years have passed since the Satanic Letters of Stephen Brown holding these allegations were written - but it is worth noting that the ONA still maintains and publishes the occasional manuscript that criticizes Aquino for the same and other aspects of his Setian Empire. Why?
The reasons that might be given by either side are irrelevant in the study of form. The fact of the matter is that the ONA and TOS are still locked in a symbiosis, struggling for that same coveted objective space of the authentic. If the ONA changes it mind regarding the TOS it loses the tension it gains and has gained by pushing against certain forms of the TOS. And vice-versa. Having enemies is often seen as a moral happening and is caused by a struggle for space on a perceived objective stage - and rarely understood as a necessary alchemical ingredient for overcoming or creating stability for a new or counter form. This principle is actively used by the United States which has a long list of power-words from Witches, to Communists/Reds, Terorrists, Weapons of Mass Destruction, Al Qaeda and so on to create the necessary tension to empower its opposing forms. Alchemy is often dismissed as an ancient nonsense or back-hand complimented as the precursor of medicine but it is no less relevant or powerful than it was when its use was at its height - because it is so close to the truth.+O+



[Extract from TOSd8 regarding Aquinos opening a Door:] As mentioned at the beginning of Chapter #1, the Church of Satan had struggled for the entire decade of its existence with the central, inevitable issue of the reality of the supernatural, or more precisely the metaphysical. The puerile myths and images of the world’s conventional religions we had long since dismissed as worthless nonsense - indeed, as pertaining to their devils and demons, the stuff for amusing, spooky psychodrama, sarcastic lampoon, and occasionally Lesser Black Magical control of gullible minds still psychologically enslaved to superstition.
Yet within carefully-crafted magical ritual environments, some Satanists had also sensed a reality beyond that apparent to the ordinary senses.

+O+ Here, as in ONA manuscripts, Aquino matches the negative form using marked language of disdain to abstract the approach of the CoS, against a new positive form he subtly suggests to be more exciting and authentic. This is the same tension of opposites that re-occurs in the creation of all forms, and without which, new forms cannot emerge. The switch between individual and collective validation, I.e. between individual assertions or -I- and group assertions such as -we- or in this case -some- is very often used so that the authors claims are more likely to be accepted as coming from a wider source than simply themselves. This is a curious habit of all (occult) authors putting forth views, that I have read.. This clue led me to the assumption that I speak alternately for my sense of the Collective and the Individual in a mostly unconscious secret language that betrays the authors subconscious intent. It should be apparent that this is not isolated to Aquino, Long or the Occult - reading just a few text books reveals it to be a common practice by almost anyone who writes with something to prove. Since it is questionable whether one person Can speak for the collective - I merely wonder whether this switch has another purpose. My theory is on-going. +O+

[Extract from TOSd8 regarding Aquinos on “Gods“:] This was an entirely new and positive form of “Satanism” that had almost nothing in common with traditional “Devil worship” except the preliminary seriousness of formal atmospheres. It was a chill that went up one’s spine when commencing, then culminating a Black Magical working. We were not just play-acting; we had really opened, or at least begun to open a door which profane humanity had only vaguely imagined to exist. What we would see when we got it fully open we did not know; we only sensed that, for all of its faults and failings, the Church of Satan had somehow managed to discover its key.
For me, the Book of Coming Forth by Night was the event that flung that door wide open. I now knew of a certainty that there was a reality beyond the four-dimensional, and that within it existed the actual centers of consciousness which mankind had dimly imagined as “gods”. Pythagoras and Plato had come closer to them as Forms or Principles, and the ancient Egyptians closest of all as neteru.

+O+ The obvious parallels between Aquinos realization of opening a door are matched very closely with ONA’s explication of the phenomena of the connection or gates formed by the meeting place of causal and acausal space to form nexions. Both seek to explain a problem in the present perception of time and space in their work. Aquino marks Gods in “ “ to indicate a reclassification may be in order following his experiences - just as the ONA goes to great pains to elucidate the inexact nature of acausal beings and Dark Gods. In effect both TOS and ONA see something markedly Wrong with the statement and understanding of Gods in relation to their occult/esoteric findings and act to re-classify the meaning.+O+

[Extract from TOSd8 regarding Aquinos core being affected:]
This realization forever transformed the core of my own consciousness, of course, as I’m sure it would that of anyone else undergoing the same shock. I knew now that
physical extension in time/space was merely part of a much greater whole whose Mysteries awaited beyond.

+O+ Both Long under ONA mythos and Myatt under Numinous mythos relate this same transformation - as do I in my own experiences. We can see by the few passages I have extracted already - that in esoteric and even exoteric terms both men are very similar in their Archetypal Energy and Experiences. we may even assume as a temporary speculation that it is this Archetype that will be embodied in those destined to make contact with them to continue the turning of the wheel. Szandor possessed this Archetypal resonance too as did many of those whom inspired him to ground and found the CoS. +O+

[Extract from TOSd8 Aquinos thoughts on The Book of Coming Forth by Night and the similarity of NAOS:] I simultaneously realized that, as Crowley had observed in Book 4 above, such an illumination - there is no better word for it - cannot possibly be described or explained to intellects as yet within the purely-material realm of consciousness. It would be futile, even dangerous to try, as in H.G. Wells’ famous parable of The Country of the Blind.
There was, however, another aspect of the Book of Coming Forth by Night which was both communicable and practical. It pointed the way to a unique path of self-realization and ennoblement that any suitably-intelligent individual could decide to pursue. It was not necessary to comprehend its origin or ultimate implication - just its existence and availability. The Grail was now there to be grasped and drunk from, for any with the
awareness, courage, and resolve to do so.

+O+ An identical attitude, is possessed by the ONA in regards to those with the right stuff being able to make something of themselves via the Septenary Way if they so choose now that the Way is available to all. It is in fact expressed throughout the decades long array of treatises written by the ONA including its former core guide - NAOS. It is related that those with the sagacity determination and arete as explained in the Introductions to Satanism will survive, thrive and succeed - those that do not, will not and are irrelevant. Just as Aquino calls his book a grail now there to be grasped and drunk from, so to do the ONA state exactly the same about the Septenary Way. +O+

[Extract from TOSd8 on Aquinos apprehensions of the Book as a grail anyone can try to use“:] And so it has been these thirty years hence. Many thousands of humans have undertaken the adventure invited by the Book of Coming Forth by Night - some with more success than others, but all, I think, awakened and energized by their encounter. There is, unfortunately, a less-pleasant side to this phenomenon. Some aspirants have
found themselves unprepared to step beyond a purely-conventional frame of intellectual existence. In such cases the strengthening of consciousness can evoke, as in the science- fiction film Forbidden Planet, “monsters of the id” capable of psychological harm to themselves or others. As it has learned more about such dangers over the years, the Temple of Set has endeavored to dissuade such personalities from seeking initiation, or
shortstopping an effort that seems to be miscarrying in ominous directions. I daresay this will remain one of the Temple’s more important and compassionate responsibilities as long as it exists.

+O+ Again, remarkable similarity if viewed as a separate occurrence, remarkable insight if viewed as actions stemming from the same archetype possessing both men. The ONA has always exhorted the necessity of practical learning and challenges as opposed to mere speculative theory and academia. The slight difference, and only a matter of degree here, is in the paint - whilst the TOS explains that it wishes to let down those who don’t make the grade gently by suggesting its important compassionate duty is to carefully weed out the weak - the ONA expresses hard disdain and scorn for those who cannot keep up their tread on the Sinister Path. Yet, the ONA does in fact provide such cushions, by writing about its attitude of scorn and making it accessible to any who might wish to enter it, beforehand, it forewarns people that it will not tolerate weaklings or dilettantes much the same way TOS warns the same.+O+

[Extract from TOSd8 on Aquinos reaction to his Book and the structure it provided for his work] This text was so meaningful to me that I have since ordered my life and philosophy by its
principles. The other founders of the Temple of Set accorded it a similar trust and respect. Even though they had not participated in the working itself, many remarked, they felt that the text itself carried its own aura of authenticity and conviction. In the years that followed, countless others have been moved by it in a similar fashion.

+O+ The same can be said here of Long being inspired by Greek Literature and Mythology, or Myatt by the behaviour, culture and demeanour of the Greeks, which principles and virtues characterize dozens of ONA manuscripts from the earliest known writings to the most recent. Here the 23 syndrome that captures one expresses it remarkable power - for it is largely irrelevant how authentic a form is considered to be by outsiders and only by its adoptee - for that syndrome will, carried through to its conclusions and extremity, causes that form to pool in its greatest possible concentration - through which, and only through which, can new forms be sufficiently anchored in symbiosis by pushing hard against it. The more Rigid a form is, the harder one can push against it and develop a form of equal strength. That is why the ONA and TOS utilize each other esoterically - but despise one another exoterically. Should be apparent though, that this is not the only form ONA pushes against, or that TOS pushes against but that there are hundreds of thousands comprising the Matrix that form this invisible but crucial cyclical intricate hierosgamos of Change.+O+

[Extract from TOSd8 Aquinos resignation to the authenticity of the Book] As for the text itself, I am content to comment upon it as best I can, then let others judge it as they will. For me it is now, as then, a simple, beautiful, and purposeful statement from the sentient being whom mankind has loved, hated, worshipped, cursed, praised, and reviled as the Prince of
Darkness. To echo the words of G.B. Shaw in The Devil’s Disciple: “I promised him my soul, and swore an oath that I would stand up for him in this world and stand by him in the next.” This remains my oath today.

+O+ Yet again Long and Myatt and ONA express at various stages and degree these same sentiments of being unable to ascertain the origin of the source of their genius, creation or inspiration for their resulting exoteric forms and the feeble attempts by each author to capture the true numen of their forms - leaving it open for others to judge. +O+

[Extract from TOSd8 Aquinos attempt to move away from Judaeo Christianity via Egyptian Iconography] A focus upon ancient Egyptian philosophy, religion, and culture, however, presented
the fledgling Temple of Set with a different, and equally formidable array of problems.
The topic of ancient Egypt generally has been one of both exhaustive examination by and contentious debate between conventional Egyptologists and independent investigators.
The former group generally agree that Egypt was simply an agricultural society comparable to that of other Mediterranean/Near-Eastern cultures of the time-period. It was
notable for its enigmatic hieroglyphic writing system, odd-looking formalized art, peculiar massive building projects, and morbid, animal-totem religious cultism. The latter group, while differing in the details, see Egypt rather as a remarkable, indeed startling exception to its primitive neighbors. It was uniquely a civilization and repository of great sophistication and wisdom - in some respects so much so, indeed, that the very
ability of the Egyptians themselves to have generated such utopian wonders is called into question in favor of Atlanteans, extraterrestial visitors, and/or incarnated gods.
Each camp routinely ridicules the other. The conventionalists denounce the independents as unscientific dreamers and “pyramidiots”. The latter are equally contemptuous of the former, considering them as merely a brittle academic self-
protectorate afraid to violate modern taboos. And there are two taboos in particular which institutional academia does not dare to transgress - or even openly acknowledge as taboos.

+O+ What is interesting here is that, both TOS and ONA attempted to move away from Judaeo Christianity - one moved over as far as they felt would give them the distance they need - the other mocked the former for not moving over far enough. This is repeated by THEM’s criticisms of Satanism in all its veins using Magi tools to present itself, I.e. Forms, Duality, Morality and so on, so moving over further, is not enough for Us unless you can move right through to the other side and devise new tools - or psycho-social collapse of the Matrix to allow the evolution of new tools. What is also interesting is that both ONA and TOS speak in Aeonics -that is to say, the both take notice of civilizations and long spans of years as meaningful representations and indications of collective existence - or to put it another way, they both appreciate that these chunks of time have a story to tell that can be used as a tension to modern times. +O+

[Extract from TOSd8 Aquino tensions the CoS against the TOS]
The Church of Satan had been accused by its critics of championing the worship of evil. Not so: What it actually did, as exemplified in the Diabolicon, was to maintain that
“God” was in fact evil and “Satan”, as a repudiation of that evil, was truly good. This was a new interpretation of “evil” as human denial of personal responsibility for moral
decisions, as well as hypocrisy in the executing of such moral decisions as were ventured. True goodness was accordingly to be found in genuine personal responsibility and full
acceptance of the consequences of one’s decisions. This is what made the Church of Satan, despite its bizarre facade, feel so refreshingly virtuous next to the repulsive, corrupt
Hebraic monotheism it rejected.

+O+ Here we find Aquinos comments that the CoS inverted Christian morality to reverse the roles of the Devil and Satan in an attempt to reject Hebraic Monotheism and the first step of Aquino to tension the essential breakthrough of the CoS against his TOS. He is in my opinion right in recognizing the evolutionary contribution of the CoS to the overall Satanic Strata in its move to invert Christianity as a means to escape it. He also foresees that this is not enough - without this step in the ladder he could not have tensioned the TOS and mapped its geometry. Though there are flashes of the disdain, perhaps more subtle after re-writes and time, that comes with the unconscious thrall of being affected by such forces and that require such a thrall if there is to be evolution (wherein passion of love or hatred propels one in the needed direction by gaining a boost from kicking off from a dying form) .Note, that this passion is diminished by peeling off the exoteric skeleton of this process and making it conscious to others. It is the unconscious factors that act to make us kick-off in the tensioned direction and give us the arrogance or confidence to believe in our respective Forms, Our Truth and Manifest it. It is the innate drive that makes us feel justified and Right to do what we believe it is our duty to do. Thus both TOS and ONA may deny this process occurred, since it is not a conscious one -despite the trail in their memes.+O+

[Extract from TOSd8 Aquino tensions the TOS against the CoS]
Now the Temple of Set was challenged to take one step beyond. The entire Hebraic monotheism, to include even its Satanic reinterpretation as the actual benchmark for evil,
would be thrown into the dustbin. JHVH, Satan, Moses, Christ, Mohammed - collectively discarded in all of their social, physical, or metaphysical contexts and pretensions.
In their stead would arise not a mere revival of polytheism per se, but a polyfaceted divine individualism, in which the energy of each such personal consciousness is realized to
derive from a Universal inspiration: Set.
This was a Set far more subtle and complex than the superficial character described by the Egyptologists. Just how much so it would take the Temple of Set many years to discover; in many regards it is still doing so.

+O+ Here, Aquino reclassifies Satan altogether, seeking to move so far over away from its connotations that he is prompted to adopt a blank page and re-write the whole thing. He moved, quite far over, away from mere inversion to ‘polyfaceted divine individualism‘ in which each such personal consciousness is realized to derive from a universal inspiration: Set. And here again, the ONA was doing the same moving over, jettisoning off the CoS with an even harder kick wherein Satan was also reclassified or rather, re-discovered with critical re-examinations of the meaning of Satan priming the way for a whole different strain of assertion. Yet, the connection Aquino describes may as well be the same connexion the ONA expound under the term Acausal and Nexions. The nomenclature may differ but the action is the same. Each man reclassified Satan and sought to evolve the present understanding of it. ONA’s ciriticism naturally arises of the TOS because the TOS did not move far enough over out of the reigning paradigm to escape what ONA felt were still Magi/Christian trappings. TOS believed it was the rightful heir to the throne and refused to acknowledge the ONA. ONA did it right back. Yet its all a question of extremes - in the eyes of THEM both groups are not far enough over to escape the Magi trappings we perceive innate in the building blocks they have used, merely by using Forms. And so it will go. Hopefully, what people are beginning to realize here, is that there is something very different, some exchange and symbiosis very separate going on underneath all the fighting and disagreements that points to the quintessence of Forces responsible for Life. +O+


[[Extract from TOSd8 Aquino redfines the ‘Gods‘ ]The other Egyptian “gods” were also reperceived. In conventional Egyptology they too, like Set, were merely two-dimensional dolls in a hodge-podge of folktales and parables. Now the individual human consciousness, each as energized by Set, was seen to be capable of seeing past the physical surface of natural phenomena, into the living essence underlying each. These are the Forms described by Plato in his Dialogues, and more
originally the true neteru comprehended by the priesthoods of ancient Egypt.
To the extent it has been noticed by conventional society over the years since its [re]founding, the Temple of Set has occasionally been maligned and attacked on various
alarmist pretexts: “Satanism”, “cult”, “political extremism”, “mind control”, etc. All such nonsense serves merely to illustrate how ignorant such critics are of the actual distinction and significance of the Temple as summarized here. It is nothing less than an entirely new way of looking not just at self-conscious humanity, but at the physical and metaphysical
realities beyond that humanity,

+O+ In similar fashion, the ONA took the existing Chthulhu Mythos and crafted (some say restored) a very different approximation of the Dark Gods these myths were supposed to describe. Yet it scorned the TOS for its Egyptian adoption, citing it as old aeon. We know now that such reactions are exactly that - alchemical reactions in the process of forms tensioning themselves. THEM believe what we are describing and how, fit’s the definition of Neteru; pulling off not just the skin of the form, but extracting the bones on which it is built and seeking for the whisper of life that imbues it with sentience…
Aquino again shares a common bond with Long et al by anticipating the simplifications and conclusions others will jump to in their inability to appreciate the subtle essence of Form and its Formative processes and writing that others will not See. Without the CoS to invert Christianity, the TOS to move further over into a new paradigm, the ONA to see the TOS and CoS and pour its scorn upon the degree to which TOS extracted itself from the reigning paradigm, and THEMs insight through this Satanic Triangle (for convenience, but really, nothing is that simple that it has only 3 components) allowed this new strain of Form-Based Analysis or ‘Mvimaedivm’ to arise as a tension to existing trends. We are also aware that this particular strain of ours, our tendency to tear things apart so completely strikes a chord with a rather large number of people. We believe this may have something to do with our conscious recognition of what have been occult/hidden processes beneath form and the synchronicity this dis-covery is generating as a new evolutionary form and catalyst for Satanic practice, spreads it wings. Moving on.+O+

[Extract from TOSd8 Aquino re-emphasizes the Egpytians] To understand the attitude of the Egyptians, it is necessary to emphasize the striking contrast between their view of the world and ours. We live in a universe which we know is in perpetual movement; each new problem demands a new solution. But for the Egyptians this notion of time which modifies the current knowledge of the world, of an alteration of factors which forces a change in methods, had no place. In the beginning the divinity created a stable world, fixed, definitive; this world functions as a motor well oiled and well fed. If there are “misfires” - if the motor fades, if one of the parts making it up is worn out or broken - it is replaced and everything starts off again better than before. But this motor would always remain the same; its mechanism, its appearance, its output would always be identical.

+O+ Remarkably, Aquino devotes as much time explicating the Egyptian Culture and Mythos as Long and Myatt spend on examining and explaining the Greek. It is perhaps attributable to their archetype to be enamoured with past cultures and want to revive them or restore the various virtues and principles of each - and potentially attributable to the publication of Spengler and Toynbees various treatises and volumes on the precursor of Aeonics and the importance of such large scale cycles being popular, fascinating, and available to both at the time of their formative youth. Where Aquino explains the principles of Neteru at length, so to do Long and Myatt expend volumes relating the principles and ideology of National Socialism, Islaam or Greek Philosophy. +O+

[Extract from TOSd8 Aquino acknowledges exact definition is difficult] The information concerning these cults which is available to modern Egyptologists is both sparse and confusing. Since a given neter could be portrayed in a number of different
ways, identifying the “core neter” is difficult. The images and inscriptions concerning a neter were often altered or appropriated by cultists of rival neteru. In Christian and Islamic times all “old gods” were considered blasphemous, and monuments to them were regularly defaced and destroyed. By the end of the fifth century CE, knowledge of hieroglyphics had died out, not to reappear until the nineteenth century; meanwhile many
“useless” records perished through neglect.

+O+ Relying on the causation/history of available records to put forward their various forms, whether Neteru or Arete, or Satan - both Aquino and ONA reveal an awareness of the incomplete nature of many surviving texts dealing with various metaphysical or difficult subjects. Various ONA manuscripts relating to the Dark Gods become more and more lucid as you move from the 80’s into the years 2000-2011 indicating an early lack of such records on which to rely - with earlier manuscripts presenting several possible translations or vaguely felt out assumptions based on the available evidence; but both ONA and TOS leave their key concepts open to translation as well as surround their own explanations with a myriad of alternatives. It is not just a mark of being thorough, well-researched and confident in ones subsequent assertions - but the very nature of Mythos itself. Mythos is by nature, incomplete.+O+

[Extract from TOSd8 Aquino acknowledges Sets definition is often faulty] (2) Set was the neter who was “different” from all of the others. Too often this is simplified into his being the “evil” slayer of Osiris, hence the personification of “evil”; yet any but the most cursory study of Egyptian religious symbolism is sufficient to dispel this
caricature. He was rather a neter “against the neteru”: the entity who symbolized that which is not of nature.

+O+ Here too the ONA has quite a few manuscripts that re-examine the assumptions made about various aspects of its Tradition including Satan, Baphomet, Evil, the Sinister, the Causal, and goes to great lengths to set people straight or at least to make an effort to determine and restore the correct meaning of a term. Both Aquino and the ONA realize the duality that threatens to drown the subtlety of their Set/Satan and move to anticipate the problem - but also, with difficulty to extract their current from the simplicity of morality and simple Evil. Both realize the complexity of the issue in explaining the beyond good and evil nature of many of the early approximations of perception - but expend hundreds of pages trying to explain it to those who cannot make this distinction or rather make the distinction Between Good and Evil because they cannot escape the tension of opposites. Here is the realization often explained best that many of us are imprisoned by this inability to perceive without tensions. Anyway, it should be apparent by now that both Aquino and Long have trod a similar path - and even as they have disagreed - the outcome is undeniably mutual benefit. +O+

[Extract from TOSd8 The concept of Egyptian Adoption Solidified in Stages] In the first few years of the young Temple of Set, we weren’t quite so clear about this.
We duly plunged into many works of conventional Egyptology, some of the more useful of which are still included in the Egypt/Historical and Egypt/Philosophical categories of our
Reading List. Various Setians contributed some research articles of this genre to the Scroll, Ruby Tablet, and Order & Element publications. But it soon became clear to us that,
absent an empathy for Egypt - a sensation of its innate soul, as it were - all such studies were sterile and lifeless exercises.

The greatest breakthrough for us came in our encounter with the writings of René Schwaller de Lubicz and his wife Isha. Indeed the lion’s - I should say lioness’ - share of the credit goes to her, because much of René’s work is highly technical. Isha was able to synthesize its elemental themes into her highly-readable “novel” Her-Bak, being the story of a young Egyptian’s journey from ordinary peasant to initiated priest.33 For many
Setians, once they were exposed to the basic structure of René’s thought through Her-Bak, his more complex works were soon unlocked. And suddenly ancient Egypt came wonderfully, vibrantly to life before us. Now, knowing what to look for and what to do with it once we found it, the Temple of Set discovered no end of wonders over the years, as of course we continue to do today.
René’s initial realization came from his study of hieroglyphs: that in addition to their convenience for mere alphabetics, they embodied symbolic principles apprehensible to both the rational and the suprarational intelligence. [His methodology is thus often termed “Symbolism”.] Gradually he extended his awareness of this key to Egyptian culture into its architecture (as in his magnum opus examination of the Luxor temple complex, Le
Temple de L’Homme) and pre-Pythagoreanism.

You will suddenly understand the Pyramids. You will suddenly understand the Temples. And of course you will meet the neteru. Not the two-dimensional, comic-book simpletons cherished by profane Egyptologists, enmeshed in tawdry tales of sex, violence,
and meaningless ritual. But the beautiful, wonderful weavers of the most delicate webs of the Objective Universe itself. In their presence, severally and collectively, the awakened
Initiate will confront an eternity of discovery and synthetic creativity. And yet the most difficult neter to meet is Set. Because to apprehend all of the others one need only look outward, through the lenses you have learned to fashion for your
enlightened vision. But where are you going to place your lever, direct your lens, focus your attention, to see into the nucleus, the central fire, of the thing that is your own conscious self?

+O+ May I be permitted a personal, well more indulgent personal comment here? The differences between the TOS and the ONA on some levels seem intractable - it is not beyond us how people fail to miss the exact nature of the exchange occurring - that is why we are THEM - but the Temple of Set, regardless of any other considerations or comparisons is as much a Nexion in its own right as others, and the ONA comprehends the nature and meaning that is Neteru. The two groups differ in terminology and their exoteric forms clash on occasion as part of a necessary alchemy seemingly ill-understood even by the majority of today’s magicians - but the two men of both groups are sharing an identical source and expressing an identical archetype. Strangely, though they are at the forefront of Satanism, Self-Becoming, the Acausal and Nexions and Neteru - they appear to require the Temple of THEM to perceive the underlying mesh that binds them. More strangely, is that without the Temple of Set which happened to send me to the ONA we could not provide the tension to make visible what is invisible nor could we have achieved what we just did. Aquino’s heuristic explorations and insights are no less poignant or passionately and carefully related or useful or important than those of Long or Myatt. +O+

[Extract from TOSd8 Aquino announces himself an Ipsissimus] On the Ides of March 1979 I came into being as an Ipsissimus VI°. This chapter discusses the rationale and significance of that initiation & formalized degree, as well as the changes to my interest in, attitude towards, participation within, and obligations to the Temple & Æon of Set subsequently and consequently.
- 28 -

+O+ Another thorny point of contention by the ONA is the self awarding of the title of Ipsissimus by Aquino - wherein the ONA fiercely emphasize that no master can confer awards or call oneself a Master without doing a set of proscribed things… There are multiple contradictions here… but the underlying reason for ONA’s annoyance must be part of its unconscious reaction and necessity for a tension to its own view on the matter of earning titles. Aquino’s action helps illustrate nicely what the ONA believe is not how you do it opening the way for them to explain How you do it. Yet more than a few of the ONA’s manuscripts create loopholes and in fact justify Aquinos decision and action to call himself whatever he likes and further whatever aim it is he desires to further. The issue comes down to the degree of movement away from an existing paradigm - where Aquino moved the Temple of Set far away from the Church in some respects - others he did not move so far from, such as the idea of structure, leadership and levels of attainment. Subsequently, ONA disagrees because it moved its Order in different degrees creating more or less tension between the two opposing ideas. We can see though, by viewing the ONA and TOS as energetic creatures whose behaviour does in fact have a logical system of processes, why ONA fiercely defends its own system of leaderless self-attainment and attacks the system of the TOS - its how forms behave. Whatever a person chooses to call themselves or not call themselves is still just an abstraction like all the rest of the abstractions we make - if they are successful in giving themselves a form that does in fact cause a specific reaction such as calling oneself a Master, Grand Master, Ipsissimus or what have you does - then they are clearly on another level above those that react in thrall to that form and do deserve an elevation in energetic understanding (read. Magical prowess). How you do it or what you believe is necessary to achieve such a title, whether you aspire to such a title, is entirely up to that individual or group. If others cannot see it for what it is, or determine whether that title is deserved, then more fool them. If they invest that form with validity of faith then that indicates their level of prowess - and subsequently does Set (excuse the pun) apart the one from the other. As I have said before, the name of the game is the delivery of forms - whatever the means. Personally I see no reason to believe Aquino is not set apart - loyalty to my Order is secondary to not being blinded to the messages of my own eyes - and indeed set very far apart from the other. By that token though, so to is Long or Myatt set far apart from the other - whatever claims either group make about the legitimacy of what needs be done to deserve their rank or any rank - is completely irrelevant to me. I judge for myself through the language of Geometry. To hell with the tension of opposites.+O+


[From tosd8 much further down Aquino questions the TOSs existence and purpose]
Epilogue: Sic Itur Ad Astra
After its “long, strange trip” of 30 years “and counting”, what shall we say of the Temple of Set? What has it meant to the thousands of persons whose lives have touched upon it over the years? Is it beneficial to external society? To itself internally? Has it successfully avoided the trap of becoming “a bureaucracy for its own sake” and managed instead to focus on the enhancement of each individual Initiate’s experience?
Where best has it succeeded and why? Where has it failed and why, and has it learned from those failures? Can it survive amidst the world’s current and apparent future social climates?
To what if any extent can it, and should it, attempt to compensate for failings in society, as for instance inadequate education, courtesy, etc. of individuals who approach it?
What are valid reasons and qualifications for persons coming to the Temple? Why should others not be? What should we envision for the Æon of Set? Should we see it as finite, and if so with
what theoretical boundaries or eventualities? Will there be a subsequent æon, and how might we [or others] conceptualize it?
What of the eventuality of the Order of Horus becoming a Temple of Horus, and a new sam-taui of Set and Horus returning to Earth?
What?
Who?
When?
How?
Why?
To what beginning?
- 41 -


+O+ Yet again we meet that curious parallel energy where both groups take causal breaths over the decades to summarize and re-examine the purpose and history, achievements and point of their forms. One manuscript that springs immediately to mind is Beyond the Adept by the ONA where answers are given to an Adept concerning the -is-ness of the Order of Nine Angles, perception relating to it and a host of other considerations, questioned assumptions, and mental challenges given. This is the shared mentality of both men to provide and foster a living changing Tradition - and so again we must ask, how different are the men behind the Temple of Set and the Order of Nine Angles? Their forms may paint a picture of conflict - but so what? That’s like looking at a picture drawn with crayons and doubting the artists were capable of so much more. How many more manuscripts and urges and examples will it take to push people beyond their archaic reliance on what they see and dutifully process with their traditional inheritance of knowledge and the sloppy tools of form to really See what lays beneath all the currents of the world and its weary matrix? +O+

[Extracted from TOSd8 Aquinos text from the Book of Coming Forth By Night.]
And now, having looked upon the past with affection and
reverence, we shall turn our gaze to the times before us. Think
carefully of the Word of Set, for it is given in witness to my Bond. Behold, O West, I have established my Aeon. I punish the enemies who are in it, placed in the Place of Destruction. I deliver them to the examiners from whose guard there is no escape. Lo, I pass near to thee, I pass near to thee!
Affix now my image as it was given to you, so that all who read of these matters may now look upon the likeness of Set. The Word of the Aeon of Set is [Xeper?]

+O+ Both ONA and TOS work with the concept of Aeons and base their groups around the importance of Aeons. One names the Aeon Xeper, the other names it Chaos. But they both name it. Both were affected at a similar time in a similar manner by the idea of Aeons - perhaps a logical consequence of a shared bounty of magical lore they inherited - both anticipate a new Age and relate their unique interpretations of the Aeon to come. The TOS and the ONA are archetypally identical - whatever is acting through them, if anything, has seen fit to place these two men side by side as tensions for one another and provide them both with an almost mythical journey that is exactly the same at its esoteric essence. +O+



End Part I.

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#52207 - 04/05/11 04:45 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
SinisterMoon Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
Interesting analysis of ToS and ONA, thanks.


But I think there are some fundamental and important differences between the two. In praxis and practical aims.

Practical aim of the ONA - subversion, revolution, new society based on tribes. This is not something the ToS encourages or even wants or believes is necessary, AFAIK.

Praxis - amoral activities, and culling. Now the ToS might well call some such ONA amoral activities *illegal* or *criminal*. Who decides what these are?

AFAIK, this ONA praxis and the practical aims of the ONA point to the reality of the sinister/Satan as described by the ONA and as evident in some the causal forms they use, and encourage. In terms of encourage - think radical Islam and nazism.

Do they therefore express the essence of the *nexion* that is the ONA? Which appears to be very different indeed from the *nexion*/current that is ToS.

Like RS said in an article last year -

 Quote:
...while there is generally, in the ToS, a lot of talk about empowerment and even liberation – it is empowerment and liberation of the individual only insofar as it harms nobody and does not bring one into conflict with the State or its laws.


http://pointyhat.wordpress.com/the-ona-the-lhp-and-the-temple-of-set/


Maybe you deal with these in later parts of your analysis? So that I'm jumping the gun here, possibly?

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#52241 - 04/06/11 12:28 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SinisterMoon]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Interesting analysis of ToS and ONA, thanks.

+O+ You're welcome SM. And there is a second part to this essay, with room for a third. But your reply forms Exhibit A.+O+

But I think there are some fundamental and important differences between the two. In praxis and practical aims.

+O+ You yourself are now doing precisely what I describe above by tensioning the TOS against the ONA now. You describe one using the other. +O+

Practical aim of the ONA - subversion, revolution, new society based on tribes. This is not something the ToS encourages or even wants or believes is necessary, AFAIK.

+O+ And you have done it again there. The MERIT of either approach by TOS or ONA is not the discussion in Part 1, it is to point out, without being distracted by moral bias, personal preference or any of the morass of arguments that assail these opereations - but to illustrate the process by which forms grow, move, push off, and assert themselves as independent. +O+

Praxis - amoral activities, and culling. Now the ToS might well call some such ONA amoral activities *illegal* or *criminal*. Who decides what these are?

+O+ Whoever thinks they have a right to - but like I have said before, everyone has a settle point where they settle for their given answer - it does not necessarily make it the right answer, just Their answer. +O+

AFAIK, this ONA praxis and the practical aims of the ONA point to the reality of the sinister/Satan as described by the ONA and as evident in some the causal forms they use, and encourage. In terms of encourage - think radical Islam and nazism.

+O+ A comparison of the MERIT of either or both is irrelevent to the point being made, but does continue to provide evidence for the existence of esoteric tension. Note that this tension is the basis of life and form - not particular to the relationship between TOS/ONA. +O+

Do they therefore express the essence of the *nexion* that is the ONA? Which appears to be very different indeed from the *nexion*/current that is ToS.

+O+ Since everything they both do emerges from the same Source - yes. But as that energy spreads out and is mediated and processed by humans, it becomes chaotic and uniquely presenced by a geometric web of forms particular to that human mediation between the Source and Form. But in this spread out form, transmuted/translated through individual humans - the source appears and is accepted, to take on unique strata of forms which have a life of their own and do clash, despite being from the same source. +O+

Like RS said in an article last year -


Quote:
...while there is generally, in the ToS, a lot of talk about empowerment and even liberation – it is empowerment and liberation of the individual only insofar as it harms nobody and does not bring one into conflict with the State or its laws.

http://pointyhat.wordpress.com/the-ona-the-lhp-and-the-temple-of-set/


Maybe you deal with these in later parts of your analysis? So that I'm jumping the gun here, possibly?

+O+ I do. But I will wait. I would like this tension to be recognized before I post the second half. +O+

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#52255 - 04/06/11 03:51 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
SinisterMoon Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
Thanks for the reply.


 Originally Posted By: Khk
You yourself are now doing precisely what I describe above by tensioning the TOS against the ONA now. You describe one using the other.


No - with respect, it seems to me you have constructed a form (an explanation, hypothesis) which derives from the assumption described by you as -

 Quote:
Everything they both do emerges from the same Source [...] But as that energy spreads out and is mediated and processed by humans


This leads you to assume there is what you call *this tension* (a dialectic) which is the "basis of life and form" and which you find between the ONA and ToS.

You then apparently interpret my comments according to this tensioning form you have constructed - as part of some dialectic whereas I was trying to describe the essence behind the forms, the approach, that the ONA uses.

That is, that the essence manifested by the ONA is not from the same source; does not represent the same source; and that what the ONA forms can inspire or provoke the seeker toward is quite different from what the forms used by the ToS/Aquino lead the individual to.

Perhaps I did not explain it well, since you say -

 Originally Posted By: Khk
The MERIT of either approach by TOS or ONA is not the discussion in Part 1


But I was not speaking about *merit* - perceived worth, value - which is purely subjective, but about the fundamental outward differences of the two which to some extent reveal the important difference of source.

For, like I said, the ONA source - the sinister, Satan - is not IMO the same as what ToS/Aquino are talking about. So that ONA praxis and ONA aims are vastly different - and using that praxis and seeking those aims alchemically construct a very different individual than is made by the praxis and aims of the ToS.

The ONA source is amoral, destructive, violent, and *dark* - and like it says in many recent ONA essays (by AL) is beyond the power of the human being to control, even if and when they become adepts. Hence *their* Satan and for example their championing of violent forms such as NS, Jihadi Islam, gangs - and their desire to overthrow governments and their advocacy of culling. Hence also their ruthless approach to failures along their way*.

The ToS source is not amoral, destructive, violent, and *dark* - and so they don't support culling, amoral behavior, nor seek to overthrow governments, as they steadfastly believe their source, by whatever old aeon name, can be if not controlled by human beings then approached and *joined with* blah blah blah


In addition, I don't agree that there is a dialectic which is the basis of life and form, since that assumption is dependant upon your unitarian-like assumption of a shared source, and anyway implies causality, a cause and an effect.

In fact, I'd say the ONA has strived hard to move away from this assumption of such a dialectical causal process. As evident in what they now call dark-empathy and its cultivation by rites such as that of Internal Adept, and their a-causal axiom, and historically evident in the Rounwytha. It's also evident in their Star Game - in the non-linear flow (changing) of pieces and their *freedom of movement* over the boards.

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#52266 - 04/06/11 09:17 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SinisterMoon]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Who would come declaring harmlessness in Satanism would either be disclosing their fear of moral reprisal from whoever or simply be laying the deal for a justified retaliation attack i.e. "I was minding my own business and he fucked with me so I killed him" sort of thing.

I don't know because I always thought LaVey was hinting at killing people and leaving things unsaid on purpose, I saw propensity and potentiality, sobering sinisterness beneath the surface which I create in my own mind, I twist things and make them violent, especially Satanism. That aside though, I keep thinking that stagnation is invading beneath where I cannot sense it, Satanism has become so ethical and structured outside of the ONA that people feel safe around Satanism. Satanism ought to be feared and be stimulating as the most dangerous lifestyle with the most intense and extreme individuals, yes?

Satanism is a most positive way of life because Satanism is a way to actualise ones propensity as a human like in ancient warring times, all the programming of society blankets everything in such a docile state of mediocrity that people don't know the meaning of change any more, they think change is a new this or a new that which they hope for within what they are trained to think.

Why doesn't anyone seem to get mad and make direct stultifications to government officials or toward Satanism, or toward the shit we are offered as hay and a barn to keep us as human cattle akin to the oxen.

Too many are too afraid to voice their views and I can feel it, they watch and let others do all the work.
_________________________


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#52267 - 04/06/11 09:57 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Hegesias]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"Why doesn't anyone seem to get mad and make direct stultifications to government officials or toward Satanism, or toward the shit we are offered as hay and a barn to keep us as human cattle akin to the oxen."

Simple, because jail isn't nice.
You create your own environment, and decide what to do with the things the government offers you. You decide how to live your life, just like you can decide when you want to die. You decide just what is worth any risk to yourself, and if the benefits outweigh it, you do it.

"Too many are too afraid to voice their views and I can feel it, they watch and let others do all the work."

What is wrong with letting others do the work? Isn't better to be behind the scenes, controlling shit with less risks. Sometimes it is better to let others get their hands dirty, and you remain above the screaming masses. I can tell you, blood is a bitch to get out of some fabrics.

M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#52270 - 04/06/11 11:23 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SinisterMoon]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Hello SM,

+O+ I assumed respect. I extend the same. I have constructed a form and myriad of forms yes - is there any other way to communicate with human beings without doing thusly? I say no.

Do you recognize that there are similarities between the experiences of Long and Aquino as illustrated above?

The tension of opposites is the basis of life, and on a lesser scale, conversation - it is the basis of form. The argument goes, that without Good you cannot define Evil - so one is defined by the other. But its a flawed premise. Without a Tension of opposites you cannot define Anything. The problem lies in supposing there can be definition - just as you say, correctly, that people construct forms and then act from that constructed modality. The tension exists in all things, just as you (and everyone else) must rely on it to tension my statements against your own, what I said against what you said, to make your point and reply. How else could you reply without comparing what I said against what you said?

Can you reply to me without tensioning my statements against yours? Can you try? +O+

You then apparently interpret my comments according to this tensioning form you have constructed - as part of some dialectic whereas I was trying to describe the essence behind the forms, the approach, that the ONA uses.

+O+ Yes, but by tensioning the difference in the ONA against the difference of the TOS. Or, by tensioning the ONA against whatever else. Its not some sort of accusation I am leveling at you and the script on our screens to somehow claim that either group is superior - tension is an inevitibility of language and form. So again, by saying that I misinterpret what you are saying as a tension, you are using the tension of my misinterpretation to make your point. +O+

That is, that the essence manifested by the ONA is not from the same source; does not represent the same source; and that what the ONA forms can inspire or provoke the seeker toward is quite different from what the forms used by the ToS/Aquino lead the individual to.

+O+ If you are not from the same source, then what is the source of the ONA and what is the source of the TOS?

Whether the ONA leads somewhere different than the current of the TOS is again using Tension. All language HAS to use tensions - its built into it.

Tension is inarguable since no-one can make a reply without using it. If you can, or anyone can - I will withdraw my assertions. I would be happy to see someone do this - as its impossible and the event of which would herald a new form of communication outside of morality/duality. +O+

The ONA source is amoral, destructive, violent, and *dark* - and like it says in many recent ONA essays (by AL) is beyond the power of the human being to control, even if and when they become adepts. Hence *their* Satan and for example their championing of violent forms such as NS, Jihadi Islam, gangs - and their desire to overthrow governments and their advocacy of culling. Hence also their ruthless approach to failures along their way*.

The ToS source is not amoral, destructive, violent, and *dark* - and so they don't support culling, amoral behavior, nor seek to overthrow governments, as they steadfastly believe their source, by whatever old aeon name, can be if not controlled by human beings then approached and *joined with* blah blah blah

+O+ There you are again, to explain the current of the ONA you have compared it to the TOS. ONA doesn't always use the TOS as a tension in explaining its difference in form, but above you have. The similarities that formed ONA and TOS are archetypally identical - but what each man did with that archetype as it lived through them, certainly differs. But if we get cuaght up in what they did with it, we are missing the entire point of the posted essay which shows the similarities of experience that set them on their respective paths - and who have done exactly the same as the other not in the Groups and associated ephemera thay produced but in their Formative esoteric experiences. +O+


In addition, I don't agree that there is a dialectic which is the basis of life and form, since that assumption is dependant upon your unitarian-like assumption of a shared source, and anyway implies causality, a cause and an effect.

+O+ Personal discretion accepted. But the existence of Tensions of Opposites cannot be denied. To deny it, you have to use it.
The evidence of the similarities between Aquino and Long are there for anyone to see - does anyone dispute that those similarities do not exist? Though the similarties themselves are witnessed and perceived through causal forms - the animating archetype is not causal. I dont know what it is. +O+

In fact, I'd say the ONA has strived hard to move away from this assumption of such a dialectical causal process. As evident in what they now call dark-empathy and its cultivation by rites such as that of Internal Adept, and their a-causal axiom, and historically evident in the Rounwytha. It's also evident in their Star Game - in the non-linear flow (changing) of pieces and their *freedom of movement* over the boards.

+O+ How can it when language hems it in? Its not the ONAs fault that language sustains dialectical causal processes - we ALL have to use it even if it is broken and prevents certain insights that could break it from being explainable. The Star Game, as I have mentioned in my last post in Sinister 101 was a unique step in the non-linear flow. But we're now discussing things that have nothing to do with the essay and the recognition of all forms as a result of the tension of opposites. The star game is a perfect example of tensioned opposites too. How else could it work if people did not tension the black against the white? +O+

ISS,
RA

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#52271 - 04/06/11 11:26 AM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: Khk]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
One major distinction I see is that the basic praxis of an ONA participant is "insight through direct experience" and as such, very aligned with the original LHP approach while the emphasis in the ToS lies much more upon "insight through proxy" and as such, I'd consider it more aligned with the Dakshinamarga approach.

D.

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#52272 - 04/06/11 11:30 AM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: Diavolo]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
So you would say both the ONA and the TOS have approaches, and that those approaches are different?

If so - then how do you determine the difference?...

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#52273 - 04/06/11 11:45 AM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: Khk]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'd not say as much as ONA having an approach as it providing a method scattered throughout its writings. The emphasis of ONA is clearly on deeds which inevitably imply direct experience. The underlaying method I perceive (and I might be biased) is Vamamarga.

In ToS, or in that which I perceive of them, there is no emphasis on deeds as much as there is one on "knowledge" which is insight through proxy.

D.

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#52277 - 04/06/11 12:30 PM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: Diavolo]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
There we go, you tensioned the argument too by comparing one thing against another thing. Can't have I without having We.

Forgetting all this extraneous talk about the specific way each man does his thing - do you see or agree that there are similarities in the experiences of Aquino and Long as I described comparing what Aquino wrote about his formative processes and what Long or Myatt wrote about his formative processes - or that they both admitted to, or have provided evidence in their actions for - in the essay posted above?

Its not important WHAT each mans common set of realizations, actions and so on lead to - but an acknowledgement or denial THAT they experienced a similar set that were archetypally similar, despite their later manifestations of the TOS and ONA which have great differences etc etc.


Edited by Khk (04/06/11 12:34 PM)

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#52278 - 04/06/11 01:26 PM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: Khk]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't really understand the “error”. I indeed tension the argument by comparing one against another but such can't be escaped. Even if I said they both have similarities since they both provide a method to gain insight, I would only be able to make that statement if I'd compare that which is a method to “insight” against that which isn't. One can not escape comparisons since to see what is, one needs to see what is not.

I agree that there are similarities but do the similarities out-value (without placing importance at who's right or better) the differences?

I'm not sure if I'm "missing" something but if, feel free to point it out.

D.

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#52282 - 04/06/11 02:02 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Hegesias]
Tesseract Offline
member


Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 190
Loc: United States
“Discretion is the better part of valor.” That, and some people’s emotional age keeps pace with their physical age…

“Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know.” It would seem the first step towards a more “violent, lethal” Satanism would be away from the keyboard and monitor...

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#52283 - 04/06/11 02:16 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Tesseract]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
It would seem the first step towards a more “violent, lethal” Satanism would be away from the keyboard and monitor...


This personal Opinion of yours, did you just make it up a moment ago, or was it based on research? As in you researched organizations and discovered that orgs and people active online are pussies in real life? Does using a computer ((keyboard and monitor)) = pussy?

You might want to try telling some of these Mongols they are internet pussies: http://www.mongolsmc.com/


Edited by Caladrius (04/06/11 02:19 PM)
_________________________
Chloe 352

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#52284 - 04/06/11 02:25 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Tesseract]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
“Discretion is the better part of valor.” That, and some people’s emotional age keeps pace with their physical age…

“Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know.” It would seem the first step towards a more “violent, lethal” Satanism would be away from the keyboard and monitor...


I think this is not that logical in its assumption and is more a call to emotion (or result of) instead of solid criticism.

It would be akin to someone in the 60ies saying to Lavey that the first step towards Satanism would be getting away from the pen and paper. It imposes that anyone who writes about something doesn't apply it.

The first step to anything is having an idea; the next steps are executing and spreading (if preferred) those ideas. Doing one does not limit doing the other.

D.

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#52285 - 04/06/11 02:34 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Caladrius]
Tesseract Offline
member


Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 190
Loc: United States
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
It would seem the first step towards a more “violent, lethal” Satanism would be away from the keyboard and monitor...


This personal Opinion of yours, did you just make it up a moment ago, or was it based on research? As in you researched organizations and discovered that orgs and people active online are pussies in real life? Does using a computer ((keyboard and monitor)) = pussy?

You might want to try telling some of these Mongols they are internet pussies: http://www.mongolsmc.com/


You might want to be a little less sensitive and defensive, and look again at who was in my “Re:” line…

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#52288 - 04/06/11 02:42 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Tesseract]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
It would seem the first step towards a more “violent, lethal” Satanism would be away from the keyboard and monitor...


This personal Opinion of yours, did you just make it up a moment ago, or was it based on research? As in you researched organizations and discovered that orgs and people active online are pussies in real life? Does using a computer ((keyboard and monitor)) = pussy?

You might want to try telling some of these Mongols they are internet pussies: http://www.mongolsmc.com/


You might want to be a little less sensitive and defensive, and look again at who was in my “Re:” line…


'Quit Deflecting.'

I asked you 3 simple questions concerning how you came about your opinions/conclusions. You mentally evade them. Let's learn to have an intelligent dialogue. I assume you are intelligent since you seem like a smartass. Reread my three questions. If you still hold your original position, please do me a favour and go to the forums in the Mongol's website and tell them the same thing. And don't forget to give them your address so they can reward you properly with a thank you for being a superhero.
_________________________
Chloe 352

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#52289 - 04/06/11 02:42 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Diavolo]
Tesseract Offline
member


Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 190
Loc: United States
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
“Discretion is the better part of valor.” That, and some people’s emotional age keeps pace with their physical age…

“Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know.” It would seem the first step towards a more “violent, lethal” Satanism would be away from the keyboard and monitor...


I think this is not that logical in its assumption and is more a call to emotion (or result of) instead of solid criticism.

It would be akin to someone in the 60ies saying to Lavey that the first step towards Satanism would be getting away from the pen and paper. It imposes that anyone who writes about something doesn't apply it.

The first step to anything is having an idea; the next steps are executing and spreading (if preferred) those ideas. Doing one does not limit doing the other.

D.


sar·casm [sahr-kaz-uhm]
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms.

Origin:
1570–80;  < Late Latin sarcasmus  < Greek sarkasmós,  derivative of sarkázein  to rend (flesh), sneer; see sarco-

—Related forms
su·per·sar·casm, noun

—Synonyms
1.  sardonicism, bitterness, ridicule. See irony1 . 2.  jeer.

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#52290 - 04/06/11 02:48 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Tesseract]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
sarcasm


And if that doesn't work, been drinking is a great one too.

Gosh that's sarcasm.

D.

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#52292 - 04/06/11 02:52 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Caladrius]
Tesseract Offline
member


Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 190
Loc: United States
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
 Originally Posted By: Tesseract
It would seem the first step towards a more “violent, lethal” Satanism would be away from the keyboard and monitor...


This personal Opinion of yours, did you just make it up a moment ago, or was it based on research? As in you researched organizations and discovered that orgs and people active online are pussies in real life? Does using a computer ((keyboard and monitor)) = pussy?

You might want to try telling some of these Mongols they are internet pussies: http://www.mongolsmc.com/


You might want to be a little less sensitive and defensive, and look again at who was in my “Re:” line…


'Quit Deflecting.'

I asked you 3 simple questions concerning how you came about your opinions/conclusions. You mentally evade them. Let's learn to have an intelligent dialogue. I assume you are intelligent since you seem like a smartass. Reread my three questions. If you still hold your original position, please do me a favour and go to the forums in the Mongol's website and tell them the same thing. And don't forget to give them your address so they can reward you properly with a thank you for being a superhero.


INTERNET -- Serious Business.

My comments were not directed specifically towards “The Temple of Them”, nor generally towards people who discuss philosophy and violence online. I know nothing of these “Mongol’s” you’re referring to, and so, wouldn’t offer an opinion as to how “bad-ass” they might be “IRL”. Neither would I attempt to use them as a straw man…

I did not “mentally evade” your three simple questions -- I considered them, and declined to reply.

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#52293 - 04/06/11 02:57 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SinisterMoon]
nightvisions Offline
Banned
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Registered: 04/06/11
Posts: 8
KHK wrote "In part 1 my particular interest lies in examining/ discussing the similarities between Xeper and the Acausal?"



Xeper as i understand it is the scarab beatle a common symbol in the occult to represent re birth.

I believe it's explained as i have come into being by the temple of set.

The acausal is the entire field according to ona
The acausal represents the invisible field where your will is directed or where you seek to commune with spirits entities archtypes etc.

Sets use of the scarab beatle and meaning are the said act of re-birth

they are 2 distinctly different things

more than likely this Xeper is a proclamation that they initiated and are reborn


Edited by nightvisions (04/06/11 02:58 PM)

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#52294 - 04/06/11 02:57 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
G-day mate! Thanks for the most interesting reply.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
I assumed respect. I extend the same. I have constructed a form and myriad of forms yes - is there any other way to communicate with human beings without doing thusly? I say no.


Again, with respect - I say yes, there is a way. The way enshrined in the ONA, which is of learning the skills of the dark arts, such as dark empathy, from practical experience.

Words, terms, should follow this acquiring of Occult skills. All the ONA does is point the way - to what lies beyond the forms.

Truth is, the ONA was, and still is to a far greater extent than most apparently seem to realize, the way of direct individual guidance, as in the seven fold way. This seems to have been missed or forgotten in this internet age.

Hence ONA adepts still guide individuals on the personal level. Skills, learning, are passed on from person to person. Practical advice is given. It's just not often talked about, on the internet - 'CoS there's no reason to.

Consider this - how many people interested in the ONA or inspired have done the rite of Internal Adept? How many planning to do so have been given practical advice from someone who has? I personally know two people who have done the rite, and succeeded. They are not and never have been *on the internet*.

What we see here, on forums such as this, and what we see in such things as published ONA texts, are not the whole ONA.

So we still communicate to others of our kindred in the old fashioned way - by knowing them personally, and often because of this personal relationship having an intuitive understanding with them, a communication, which transcends words and *forms*.

The words, the forms, may inspire them initially to seek us out - and that is the primary function of such words, forms. or they may inspire them to go it alone, and learn the hard way. Which is their secondary function. Only their secondary function.

Again, in a personal setting, a lot of communication is non-verbal.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
Do you recognize that there are similarities between the experiences of Long and Aquino as illustrated above?


Yes, and no. Yes, on a superficial level - and no on the level of essence, and source.

Superficial - because both are intelligent, articulate, Occult LHP seekers, and both have decades of Occult experience. Also, like AL (as SB) said to Aquino in one of the Satanic Letters -

 Quote:
We are both aware of the potential inherent within individuals and how certain forms, magickal or otherwise, can be used to explicate that potential....


No, because AL has lived a practical and remarkably diverse amoral and moral life and from it distilled certain techniques and practical guides. He has been touched by, and embraced, darkness - lived the Dark Side, and the Light Side, which I don't think Aquino has. Their experiences are very different and this difference is IMO evident in the nature, the essence, of the ONA - which could be said to be AL's sinister pathei-mathos combined with a little bit of inherited knowledge.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
The tension of opposites is the basis of life


Again, with respect, I profoundly disagree. It is just an assumption about the basis for human life.

For me, the basis of life is acausal energy manifesting via a nexion. This neither implies nor imputes a tension of opposites - it just is what it is.

The majority of humans however do project some causal forms onto this simple process - but that is their mistake, which practical LHP experience in the amoral ONA manner might well correct \:\)


 Originally Posted By: Khk
Without a Tension of opposites you cannot define Anything.


This is the essence of your approach. That of the ONA (and I'm taking my cue from an as yet unpublished text by AL) is to not to define but to experience. Words, terms, only take us so far. What matters is dark-empathy, pathei-mathos, and the overcoming resulting from practical experience of what is conventionally termed Dark/Light.

As Myatt wrote in a recent article - "only the empathy of the living changeful transient moment, and us-as-Being".

Applied to the Dark Side, this equates to - "only the dark-empathy of the living changeful transient moment, and us-as-acausalBeing."


 Originally Posted By: Khk
There you are again, to explain the current of the ONA you have compared it to the TOS.


I think you miss the point, which is that it was you who made the comparison while I attempted to explain the essence of the ONA, and then pointed out, for you, how this essence differs from the ToS/Aquino. The essence does not depend on this comparison - which comparison is only an illustration, not the essence.

In truth, I would go so far as to say that the ToS is irrelevant. The ONA is the ONA. If the ToS ceased to exist or never existed, the ONA would still be the ONA.

The fact is the ONA was brought into being before ToS existed, and it was nearly two decades later that the ONA even mentioned the ToS/Aquino (in those Satanic Letters). That simply because the ToS had proscribed the ONA.

Since then, the ToS - like Crowley - has been the subject of a mere ten or so ONA texts - out of several thousand.


 Originally Posted By: Khk
The similarities that formed ONA and TOS are archetypally identical


Perhaps you should define what you mean by *formed* and *archetype*. Are you using archetype in its ONA sense - as "An archetype is a particular causal presencing of a certain acausal energy and is thus akin to a type of acausal living being in the causal (and thus in the psyche)" ?

Are you using *form* in the ONA sense of a causal manifestation of acausal energies?

But that aside, I also disagree with this statement of yours - they are profounsly different. To start one is amoral and subversive on both the individual and non-individual level (in terms of soceity). The other isn't.

That you haven't yet addressed this practical difference in terms of morality, subversion, violence, practical, revolution, is interesting. For such things manifest the dark essence, the dark source, the practical archetypes of the ONA.
 Originally Posted By: Khk
The star game is a perfect example of tensioned opposites too. How else could it work if people did not tension the black against the white?


The esoteric essence of that game is that the *player* is both Back and White, and then through the flow of both, their changes, their cliology, they move toward a dark-empathic awareness, which brings an understanding, or intuition, a knowing, of the acausal beyond forms and opposites.

The advanced *game* played over a period of many days can induce this type of knowing. That is, it's a type of magickal rite.

Again, I ask - how many people have constructed the advanced form of the star game? How many have played it over a period of many days?

As in the case of culling, and the internal adept rite, theory is one thing - practical doing, another. Discussing it in theoretical terms is not the same as having experienced it. The doing, the experience, takes us beyond words and forms - and reveals the essence of the ONA.

This practical revealing makes us aware of just how different the ONA source is from that of the ToS. The point is the experience comes first, then a personal knowing, them the realization of the difference, and then for some maybe some public texts to outline these differences.

Who so outline? As possibly useful illustrations for those aspiring to alchemically transform themselves by practical sinister deeds and practical sinister magick - like a teacher explaining the works of Jane Austen and Wordsworth, which explaining of one as literature and one as poetry doesn't mean there is a tension of opposites, or some underlying common source of inspiration or even that they're trying to express the same thing. Jane Austen is Jane Austen and Wordsworth is Wordsworth - and we relate to them (or not) because they affect us in their differing ways, not because we are scrutinizing them in some dreary academic way based on some theory we have about some possible link between them. For if we do that, we've lost their emotive practical essence that can affect us in our moment of our reading. We lost their Art, the experiences and feelings they are trying to communicate, through our assumptions about them.

It's not the tension of some theoretical opposites that brings knowledge, insight - but, in the case of the LHP, the practical doing. As in the case of Jane Austen and Wordsworth it is the reading of them as works of literature and as poetry that captures their essence and may bring us some insight.

Thus for the LHP it's not the tension of some theoretical opposites that expresses the source or direct us toward the source, but the practical doing of amoral deeds, of undertaking sinister rites, of undertaking such things as internal adept, of playing the star game, etcetera.

Like I said - practical experience, then the knowing, then possibly attempts to explain to others such knowing.

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#52326 - 04/06/11 10:28 PM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: Diavolo]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
[Re-written] Nice. a breakthrough. You always come through Diavolo.... Alright, let me try to explain the "error".

Everything is tensioned in life against something else. Its the cause of duality. It is not, as ONA says below, the correct cause of life - but the way we have been taught to percieve - it is our traditional mental behavioural inheritence - but it is flawed because it is percieved as being the Only one amenable to perception. The Tension of Opposites can, but does not refer to two diametrically opposed values at extremes from each other such as hot and cold, opposite means opposite, adjacent, beside. Thus all things are tensioned. It may better serve to call it the Tension of Abstracts.

And you hit the nail on the head when you say such cannot be escaped. It CAN - but not when we write or use language - because language stops the transcendence in its tracks because language is designed to describe only linear 3d space(from the Churches decision to create Latin - a unified language of many languages that became English) or if not deliberately designed, is still hopelessly stuck in duality and promptly returns any acausal, non-dualistic, or non-linear insights or thoughts or attempts to share them - into 3d linear space and time. Language re-translates real experience of time and space - its doing it now. (See Chronobet for an analysis of the funciton of Is, or It.) Its inescapable because we have no alternate tools to express ourselves. So the tension of opposites is unavoidable and innate in all language.

So you are right on the money in saying you cannot escape it because to see what is we must tension it against what is not.

Thank you for recognizing it.

The similarities of the Essay and my point - can be explained a different way too.

The Source, through the causal parents of both men, plants a seed. The seed is identical at its birth. As it grows, it experiences the same amount of sun, rainfall, and is given the same nutrients that make it grow into a sapling. Up until this point, both trees have shared identical experiences (not all, due to being in different environoments, but a lot) - for all intents and purposes - they have the same root system, the same sap and the same appearance. THEN - they begin to bear fruit.

One tree bears Apples, the other, bears Oranges. So although the Archetype of their tree was identical - their individual expressions of their fruit are different. One bears the TOS, one bears the ONA. I am comparing the roots - not the fruit. And the roots are the same - carbon life-forms a mixture of electricity and water who record an interest in ancient cultures, who strove to present a living tradition that can change, stopping occasionally over the decades to reassess their group and so on - are shared archetypal similarities. On the plane of FORM, the diversity of their fruit, flowers and so immediately bi-furcates (splits) them into two very seperate different looking trees - but they once shared an identical root system. So the nature of the fruit is irrelevent and not important to the discussion at hand. (But obviously, neither man wants to be compared to the other so there is resistance and a comparison of fruit.) Does that help?



Edited by Khk (04/06/11 10:46 PM)

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#52332 - 04/06/11 11:23 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Morgan]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
"Why doesn't anyone seem to get mad and make direct stultifications to government officials or toward Satanism, or toward the shit we are offered as hay and a barn to keep us as human cattle akin to the oxen."

Simple, because jail isn't nice.
You create your own environment, and decide what to do with the things the government offers you. You decide how to live your life, just like you can decide when you want to die. You decide just what is worth any risk to yourself, and if the benefits outweigh it, you do it.

"Too many are too afraid to voice their views and I can feel it, they watch and let others do all the work."

What is wrong with letting others do the work? Isn't better to be behind the scenes, controlling shit with less risks. Sometimes it is better to let others get their hands dirty, and you remain above the screaming masses. I can tell you, blood is a bitch to get out of some fabrics.

M


The rich are the same as those conceited English who thought they could defeat the Zulu's with shiny silver rifles while sipping cups of tea, the Zulu's, although primitive, were more primitive and warrior spirited than the sheltered English could conceive. I have pride and confidence and back down to nobody, especially authority gets full respect and engagement. Why? Because I don't believe in any law except retaliation. I mind my own business and if people want to risk being destroyed by fucking about then it's their own fault.

The police treat me with respect and calmness because my record shows every violent act I have done was in reaction to stressful situations, I have proactive with riot shields come out for anything no matter what the call is because they know my propensity. I just think "why do people risk escalating disputes in my presence", thinking they are safe to make me stressed whilst enjoying their petty version of violence against one another. I see it as a taunt to me, they are getting a thrill by poking a lion with a stick through the bars, I see apes shrieking idiocy and they deserve a mauling.

Luckily I have fortified any kind of social life to do my best to avoid jail, I go to the gym and play music live, but I do not underestimate the kamikaze attitude of the general society who will repeatedly risk their lives by defining themselves as worthless through conceited luck pushing, I only respect determined and progressive individuals and this includes Satanist. The only time I get put in the cells is when I'm dishing out violence, this is because I have a large family and they attract all sorts of suitable individuals over the years, there's no escaping violence if you're like me, it's impossible for me to be a bystander, impossible for me to hesitate. I'm not passive and I'm not afraid of anyone, I could care less about what I do to nuisance. I'm sure everyone will agree that the law is the only deterrent from killing ones enemies no bother. Too many men have female partners they don't honour and protect, they don't have rights to be with them if they can't defend them in real life, they also teach their children the ways of the submissive coward.

There is no more risk in voicing ideas for change in this shit dishonourable society than there is in keeping quiet and hoping for the best. Clever dialectics or memetic plans will be masterful in ones mind but I am not a mastermind and believe charisma is the only tool of communication that I can use properly. I'm not an advocate of manipulating other's on a Satanist network because I came here to make real communications for want for change, I recognise that dedicated persons are here, intelligent persons are here, I feel I ought to make vast effort because morally decayed society is just not good enough. Western society only looks fancy with it's material wealth but underneath people are gutless, morally decayed and dishonourable, petty, driven by mundane greed for the self degrading shit on offer.

I don't have anything in my flat except weights and laptop, I don't want anything and I'm respectful of people who are confident, I don't want the imposed safety of society or the law taking my personal honour. It's always the same, there seems to be a "it doesn't matter who started it, you went too far" attitude. I don't believe in "eye for an eye" because that mentality just escalates situations with more repercussions, and brings you down to the level of your worthless enemy, I recognise that anyone who fucks with somebody else for no reason is conceited and risking their life and just for that they deserve the severest conclusion.

There's being behind the scenes doing actual work and then there's hiding and watching dramas unfold, which is not the same thing at all. Regardless of what you do if you are a Satanist you'll always get hatred because Satan is a symbol of everything every cultural society hates. Why potter about in moderation trying to prove to one another who is actually hardcore in real life. I don't underestimate anyone who is in Satanism and take everyone in Satanism seriously. There words and their dedication.

Fuck society and fuck the law, it's all a set up designed to nurture the petty and tolerable, law abiding or criminal it does not matter, what gets rewarded is anyone who can show they will "improve by being submissive and less of a problem to the standing of things", paedophiles get new houses and identities after being released from jail, and so do foreign invaders get free homes and a family car, whilst the working class get shit all but more taxes and shit council estate level education for their children. Yes I am ungrateful, I bite the arrogant hand that attempts to feed me shit.
_________________________


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#52372 - 04/07/11 12:00 PM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: Khk]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Thank you for the explanation, I wasn't quite sure where exactly you were going but now I understand and see what you implied.

A while ago I was having a conversation about something somewhat related, concerning different yet similar individuals. Some people share something fundamental; as if there is something quite essential in them which is clearly there to see for those who pay attention, even when all apparent differences tend to cloud it. And there is even a synchronicity in their past which again contains this similarity although in an often quite different manner. But when having to express what “it” exactly is, words seem to fail to explain it as clearly as it is being perceived.

Btw, you hinted at a possibility to escape “tensioning” and it made me curious since, at the moment, I fail to see what method could provide such. The problem I see is that even when we “think” we apply language and thus are subject to it. As such, it would have to find a way around that.

D.

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#52391 - 04/07/11 03:31 PM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: Khk]
nightvisions Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 04/06/11
Posts: 8
<quote>
The Source, through the causal parents of both men, plants a seed. The seed is identical at its birth. As it grows, it experiences the same amount of sun, rainfall, and is given the same nutrients that make it grow into a sapling. Up until this point, both trees have shared identical experiences (not all, due to being in different environoments, but a lot) - for all intents and purposes - they have the same root system, the same sap and the same appearance. THEN - they begin to bear fruit.

One tree bears Apples, the other, bears Oranges. So although the Archetype of their tree was identical - <endquote>



What your getting at is saying the archtypes are the same?
I suppose in a very rudimentary topical sence if your using transformation as this archtype, thats a given.


The same source this i don't see? as they are 2 uniquely different contructs which when percieved puts you in 2 completely different states of mind

ones an egyption collective Set

The other laden with different dark gods

2 mythos


same seed? in a very rudimentary topical sence,

its like a moot discusion you can lump every esoteric path even christian in with this? but then they are all different


the only way i'd agree on same seed is if you clarify that the idea of spiritual transformation is this seed


which makes the conversation topical





Edited by nightvisions (04/07/11 03:37 PM)

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#52404 - 04/07/11 06:21 PM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: Diavolo]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
You're more than welcome - its a remarkable achievement that I managed to explain myself without being side-tracked into answering completely different issues and for that I am exceptionally grateful to your perspicacity!

Now that I have managed to explain the existence of the tension of abstracts - and you can see what I see, or at least met me halfway - I can get to explaining the rest of the points which insist a tension lies between Aquino doing what he did with CoS to distinugish the TOS, and Long doing what he did against TOS/present-day Satanism to distinguish the ONA on the percieved objective stage as being two men out-doing each other as the same archetype repeating itself to outdo. But not just yet, I will be away for a few days so please be patient as I am very anxious to get back to this conversation.

ISS,
RA

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#52405 - 04/07/11 06:25 PM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: nightvisions]
nightvisions Offline
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the seeds are clearly marked

poison hemlock
and
the seed of a date tree


The seeds are in fact different and i don't want you to redefine it just because i have already,
reading your post your making a very rudimentary topical statement

but alas the seeds to any esoteric enlightenment are clearly marked and defined


the roots are definately not the same nor the plant itself nadda

the archtype/types used are also extremely different

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#52410 - 04/07/11 06:50 PM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: nightvisions]
nightvisions Offline
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This guys all over the board when it comes to his idea/ideas of tension

first it was the ONA's tension against the TOS.

then it was this tension is the basis of life

when corrected by his ona elder his definition changed once more

then his ona elder was using tension against him lmfao

It wasn't his intial stance his initial stance was the ONA uses this tension to define itself, or vice versa.


But Now it's on to the existance of tension of abstracts.

A very general idea again one need look no further than
islam/vs everyone not of them, sound familiar? lol

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#52411 - 04/07/11 06:58 PM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: Khk]
nightvisions Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Khk
You're more than welcome - its a remarkable achievement that I managed to explain myself without being side-tracked into answering completely different issues and for that I am exceptionally grateful to your perspicacity!

Now that I have managed to explain the existence of the tension of abstracts - and you can see what I see, or at least met me halfway - I can get to explaining the rest of the points which insist a tension lies between Aquino doing what he did with CoS to distinugish the TOS, and Long doing what he did against TOS/present-day Satanism to distinguish the ONA on the percieved objective stage as being two men out-doing each other as the same archetype repeating itself to outdo. But not just yet, I will be away for a few days so please be patient as I am very anxious to get back to this conversation.

ISS,
RA




These 2 men are definately not the same archtype

they represent 2 totaly different perspectives and lives

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#52413 - 04/07/11 07:01 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SinisterMoon]
Khk Offline
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Posts: 398
 Originally Posted By: SinisterMoon
G-day mate! Thanks for the most interesting reply.

+O+ G'day yourself. +O+

 Originally Posted By: Khk
I assumed respect. I extend the same. I have constructed a form and myriad of forms yes - is there any other way to communicate with human beings without doing thusly? I say no.


Again, with respect - I say yes, there is a way. The way enshrined in the ONA, which is of learning the skills of the dark arts, such as dark empathy, from practical experience.

Words, terms, should follow this acquiring of Occult skills. All the ONA does is point the way - to what lies beyond the forms.

+O+ Yes I know - which is partly why I am here arguing what seem like intellectually suicidal concepts - the ONA pointed the way. +O+

Truth is, the ONA was, and still is to a far greater extent than most apparently seem to realize, the way of direct individual guidance, as in the seven fold way. This seems to have been missed or forgotten in this internet age.

Hence ONA adepts still guide individuals on the personal level. Skills, learning, are passed on from person to person. Practical advice is given. It's just not often talked about, on the internet - 'CoS there's no reason to.

+O+ Yes I know that too. And now I'm one of THEM. +O+

Consider this - how many people interested in the ONA or inspired have done the rite of Internal Adept? How many planning to do so have been given practical advice from someone who has? I personally know two people who have done the rite, and succeeded. They are not and never have been *on the internet*.

+O+ private reply 1 +O+

What we see here, on forums such as this, and what we see in such things as published ONA texts, are not the whole ONA.

+O+ No - but with respect, I am forging my own direction and have been in regards to analysing forms, language, duality and many other things that ONA pointed the way to +O+

So we still communicate to others of our kindred in the old fashioned way - by knowing them personally, and often because of this personal relationship having an intuitive understanding with them, a communication, which transcends words and *forms*.

+O+ Quite so, you're correct. And you've made a fantastic point SM - the tension does not exist outside of verbal spoken or written communication - but pure empathy or ESP is not amenable to breaking forms presently held by the majority. +O+

The words, the forms, may inspire them initially to seek us out - and that is the primary function of such words, forms. or they may inspire them to go it alone, and learn the hard way. Which is their secondary function. Only their secondary function.

Again, in a personal setting, a lot of communication is non-verbal.

+O+ Agreed, see above. But as I say to Diavolo, language hems us in, even if as I acede, empathy does not. +O+

 Originally Posted By: Khk
Do you recognize that there are similarities between the experiences of Long and Aquino as illustrated above?


Yes, and no. Yes, on a superficial level - and no on the level of essence, and source.

Superficial - because both are intelligent, articulate, Occult LHP seekers, and both have decades of Occult experience.

+O+ Goes without saying when you look at their bodies of work - but you're not commenting on the specific comparisons - could you? +O+

Also, like AL (as SB) said to Aquino in one of the Satanic Letters -

 Quote:
We are both aware of the potential inherent within individuals and how certain forms, magickal or otherwise, can be used to explicate that potential....


No, because AL has lived a practical and remarkably diverse amoral and moral life and from it distilled certain techniques and practical guides. He has been touched by, and embraced, darkness - lived the Dark Side, and the Light Side, which I don't think Aquino has.

+O+ That's opinion +O+

Their experiences are very different and this difference is IMO evident in the nature, the essence, of the ONA - which could be said to be AL's sinister pathei-mathos combined with a little bit of inherited knowledge.

+O+ Their later experiences and what they did with themselves is very different - but I'm not interested or discussing that stage of their plateu inj my essay - I'm interested in the same archetype that occurred and occurs through their work in a completely different way and caused them to have remarkably similar archetypal experiences, which are complex to explain since people only view that statement one way and begin again and again to compare the Apples and Oranges, not the root. I have made some headway into the different focus of analysis as orchestrated through Diavolo's keeness of mind and the analogy of a root system. +O+

 Originally Posted By: Khk
The tension of opposites is the basis of life


Again, with respect, I profoundly disagree. It is just an assumption about the basis for human life.

+O+ As is anything - but what I observe is wordless form at play and I write what I observe. I ignore what is written about it, said about it, and this gives me a remarkable and unique insight into the world around me - evne if I am wrong - it is necessary to pursue this unique view to its utmost so that a new tension can be provided as a catalyst against my own forms and arguments - or at least, that is what I observe to be the case with forms, yes, I know - all subjective contruction... +O+

For me, the basis of life is acausal energy manifesting via a nexion. This neither implies nor imputes a tension of opposites - it just is what it is.

+O+ Wherein you tension acausal against causal. And even if you dont MEAN that, language does it for you. Precisely why actually performing ONA rites, practices, and so on does provide different wordless insight to intellectual speculation and why I am here today discussing a very difficult topic that I have discerned to be at the heart of things. +O+

The majority of humans however do project some causal forms onto this simple process - but that is their mistake, which practical LHP experience in the amoral ONA manner might well correct \:\)

+O+ Good luck to them - insight isnt bliss +O+


 Originally Posted By: Khk
Without a Tension of opposites you cannot define Anything.


This is the essence of your approach. That of the ONA (and I'm taking my cue from an as yet unpublished text by AL) is to not to define but to experience. Words, terms, only take us so far. What matters is dark-empathy, pathei-mathos, and the overcoming resulting from practical experience of what is conventionally termed Dark/Light.

+O+ Yes I know this. But to get beyond Dark/Light requires the smashing of Duality - and awareness of what sustains Duality - and the Magi worldview/architecture - which is what THEM attacks/dissolves. +O+

As Myatt wrote in a recent article - "only the empathy of the living changeful transient moment, and us-as-Being".

Applied to the Dark Side, this equates to - "only the dark-empathy of the living changeful transient moment, and us-as-acausalBeing."

 Originally Posted By: Khk
There you are again, to explain the current of the ONA you have compared it to the TOS.


I think you miss the point, which is that it was you who made the comparison while I attempted to explain the essence of the ONA, and then pointed out, for you, how this essence differs from the ToS/Aquino. The essence does not depend on this comparison - which comparison is only an illustration, not the essence.

+O+ The comparison is not between Apples/Oranges but the root system - and the tension of opposites/abstracts which is not to compare Apples/Oranges - but must first be established as an example Before I can explain the Tension I refer to. +O+

In truth, I would go so far as to say that the ToS is irrelevant. The ONA is the ONA. If the ToS ceased to exist or never existed, the ONA would still be the ONA.

+O+ OK. That may be the case now that the ONA/TOS have established their fruit - but that statement is too far past the archetype I am attempting to point out - or in the wrong context of what I am attempting to point out. +o+

The fact is the ONA was brought into being before ToS existed, and it was nearly two decades later that the ONA even mentioned the ToS/Aquino (in those Satanic Letters). That simply because the ToS had proscribed the ONA.

+O+ I can't verify that - and again perhaps "enmity" is the wrong word in the personal sense as I said to Aquino in the Set thread - yet in the archetypal sense it is still "fitting" so long as enmity is taken to be seen as a force that pushes forms apart on a fundamental level - as I will later get to illustrating. +O+

Since then, the ToS - like Crowley - has been the subject of a mere ten or so ONA texts - out of several thousand.

+O+ OK. +O+

 Originally Posted By: Khk
The similarities that formed ONA and TOS are archetypally identical


Perhaps you should define what you mean by *formed* and *archetype*. Are you using archetype in its ONA sense - as "An archetype is a particular causal presencing of a certain acausal energy and is thus akin to a type of acausal living being in the causal (and thus in the psyche)" ?

+O+ Definitions are at the heart of half the problems with language. You will just have to use your own judgement. +O+

Are you using *form* in the ONA sense of a causal manifestation of acausal energies?

+O+ Who knows? In a sense that terminology influences my writing - but without experiencing what ONA or you experience first-hand the difference may be vast - all I know is what I experience and describe as best I can. +O+

But that aside, I also disagree with this statement of yours - they are profounsly different. To start one is amoral and subversive on both the individual and non-individual level (in terms of soceity). The other isn't.

+O+ After they bear Fruit - yes, no question - but they are still archetypally similar regardless of how different that fruit is. +O+

That you haven't yet addressed this practical difference in terms of morality, subversion, violence, practical, revolution, is interesting. For such things manifest the dark essence, the dark source, the practical archetypes of the ONA.

+O+ Those things are irrelevent here. We're not comparing the TOS and the ONA - I'm comparing what lies beneath. New ground. +O+

 Originally Posted By: Khk
The star game is a perfect example of tensioned opposites too. How else could it work if people did not tension the black against the white?


The esoteric essence of that game is that the *player* is both Back and White, and then through the flow of both, their changes, their cliology, they move toward a dark-empathic awareness, which brings an understanding, or intuition, a knowing, of the acausal beyond forms and opposites.

+O+ Yes but to be both you must percieve two halves to be combined. The Star Game is in part responsible for my being here otoday putting forth what may seem like disjointed abstract views - but I know what I know and its my Wyrd to share it. +O+

The advanced *game* played over a period of many days can induce this type of knowing. That is, it's a type of magickal rite.

+O+ Yes I know - I have played it for days in a row. +O+

Again, I ask - how many people have constructed the advanced form of the star game? How many have played it over a period of many days?

+O+ Well, I have. I made a 3D model using Blender so others could too - though computer programming is nowhere near a talent - some indication of how strongly I feel that the Star Game is an important tool in teaching abstraction and withdrawal of abstraction. +O+

As in the case of culling, and the internal adept rite, theory is one thing - practical doing, another. Discussing it in theoretical terms is not the same as having experienced it. The doing, the experience, takes us beyond words and forms - and reveals the essence of the ONA.

+O+ OK +O+

This practical revealing makes us aware of just how different the ONA source is from that of the ToS. The point is the experience comes first, then a personal knowing, them the realization of the difference, and then for some maybe some public texts to outline these differences.

+O+ OK +O+

Who so outline? As possibly useful illustrations for those aspiring to alchemically transform themselves by practical sinister deeds and practical sinister magick - like a teacher explaining the works of Jane Austen and Wordsworth, which explaining of one as literature and one as poetry doesn't mean there is a tension of opposites, or some underlying common source of inspiration or even that they're trying to express the same thing. Jane Austen is Jane Austen and Wordsworth is Wordsworth - and we relate to them (or not) because they affect us in their differing ways, not because we are scrutinizing them in some dreary academic way based on some theory we have about some possible link between them.

+O+ How very condescending. +O+

For if we do that, we've lost their emotive practical essence that can affect us in our moment of our reading. We lost their Art, the experiences and feelings they are trying to communicate, through our assumptions about them.

+O+ Says you. On one hand you dimiss my ability to forge constructs and forms as representative of forces of life - but on the other you insist you have that ability. Did I just use a tension? +O+

It's not the tension of some theoretical opposites that brings knowledge, insight - but, in the case of the LHP, the practical doing.

+O+ You said that. +O+

As in the case of Jane Austen and Wordsworth it is the reading of them as works of literature and as poetry that captures their essence and may bring us some insight.

+O+ What the hell do Austen and Wordsworth know if they wrote instead of did? +O+

Thus for the LHP it's not the tension of some theoretical opposites that expresses the source or direct us toward the source, but the practical doing of amoral deeds, of undertaking sinister rites, of undertaking such things as internal adept, of playing the star game, etcetera.

+O+ No - 1) you cant speak for the whole LHP - just yours - thats the point of the LHP - thats the archetypal form of Satan. 2) LHP is an abstaction, a tension against the RHP. You cannot have your arguments both ways. Part of the problem again highlighted by the inferior nature of language to GET IT. +O+

Like I said - practical experience, then the knowing, then possibly attempts to explain to others such knowing.

+O+ Which is why I am here. +O+



ISS,
RA

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#52442 - 04/08/11 12:32 AM Re: Traps and Trapezoids Part I: The ONA and TOS [Re: nightvisions]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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 Originally Posted By: nightvisions

These 2 men are definately not the same archtype

they represent 2 totaly different perspectives and lives



If reading this all troubles you so much, I suggest you quit reading and go some place else where the conversation doesn't affect you this much. You'd do yourself and us a favor.

Thank you,

D.

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#52445 - 04/08/11 12:52 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
SinisterMoon Offline
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Thank you for the reply.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
And now I'm one of THEM


Yes indeed. Which is why you have your view, I have mine, and others have theirs. Which is as it perhaps should be.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
I write what I observe


Which writing is both interesting and thoughtfully provocative and should be of great use to *the others*, and us.

As for the ONA and the ToS, I think Morgan here expressed it best. She wrote (on the ToS thread) -

 Quote:
Comparing the ONA and the TOS, are like comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they are both fruit, but once you taste them, you see the differences.


Since this tops anything I could say in further wordy reply to you, I'll just end by saying that in my view it's practical sinister experience that matters and which best explains and defines the ONA, not words. Whatever interpretations or analysis we might give following such experience - in words - is only our interpretation/analysis, which we and others may find useful/insightful or whatever.

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#52475 - 04/08/11 12:11 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SinisterMoon]
Diavolo Offline
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What matters to me is also the difference; the ONA I can agree with, in the ToS I see no reason and while I understand what khk points at, ultimately, my personal valuation is differentiating and defining.

But his views are stimulating and as such, I enjoy them.

D.

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#52531 - 04/08/11 10:46 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SinisterMoon]
nightvisions Offline
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this guys like an elemental servant to the ona


someone to make them feel more elite because they can drag him around by his hair making him lap up his own vomit
oh and his thesis "it's all the same"
it all springs from the same source.
they are the same archtype "barf"



no wait this tension between abstract forms "now this,this is the basis of life! lol

he's just a springboard for ona to come jump in his posts and you know it

and thats stimulating ok i understand in a well he sells our ona lit on lulu for us kinda way

its a topical assessment which has been told to him by his elder as well

and even ended on that note that it's experience not topical assesment

without dark empathy then you realy don't see what im getting at

hes a springboard nothing else

sorry to keep it too real for you i'm done

being a sympathizer and an actual initiate
are 2 different things

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#52533 - 04/08/11 11:35 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: nightvisions]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
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 Quote:
sorry to keep it too real for you i'm done

Yes, you certainly are.



_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#52543 - 04/09/11 05:42 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Nemesis]
Khk Offline
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Diavolo, if you'd be so kind - I'd like to try and continue illustrating my difficult point and pick up where I left off. Would you please humour me and just answer Y/N to these questions which I'll put out one at a time.

...The Temple of Set may be more likened to an explosion within the heads of a great many individuals of rich and diverse backgrounds, yielding a mix of ideas that would constantly be shared, reconsidered, and compounded. The extent of this corpus of knowledge is already staggering, and of course still continues its exponential growth throughout a variety of communications and records.

... The complexity of this thriving movement would come to be the Living Sinister Tradition which presenced the Sinister through its initiates and Adepts as a symbiosis of Change that did not stay static but re-wrote itself as each initiate added their own insights, changes and wisdom to the collective pool of ONA resources.

+O+ Do both groups express the importance of leaving the door open for an on-going, continuously updated collection of esoteric knowledge? +O+

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#52555 - 04/09/11 09:43 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Diavolo Offline
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Even in its simplicity (Y or N) I find it rather hard to provide a "definite" answer which doesn't partially conflict. While one aspect might imply a yes, I directly can see another contradicting that.
Strangely, but maybe not surprisingly, only the ToS-related evoke this. So I had to decide if I'd provide an answer related to "on average" or "within their context" or "from my point of view".

On the risk of providing that which you didn't have in mind, I will use "my point of view". I can argue these points if needed but until then, I'll stick to Yes or No.

No
Yes
No

D.

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#52582 - 04/09/11 07:52 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Diavolo]
Khk Offline
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...Setian philosophy requires “initiatory consciousness” - not only an interest in the subject matter but both the intellectual and metaphysical capacity to comprehend it in its ultimate sense. Within the Temple, persons possessing such capacity are referred to as “Elect” and are deemed to have potential for initiation. Those lacking it, best intentions notwithstanding, would find the initiatory experience bewildering, frustrating, and meaningless...

...Likewise does the ONA make these demands of intellectual and metaphysical capacity of its prospective adherents and champions Elitism, [referring to those who do not understand it or share its views as Mundanes] ...

+O+ Do both groups espouse a belief in an Us vs. Them type level of consciousness wherein they say only a selection of people will understand them?

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#52592 - 04/09/11 08:36 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Morgan Offline
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I don't mean to piss on your posts, but isn't this the same of everything in this religious/occult field.

They start with a man, his ideas, his experience that colour his outlook, he gets inspired, and writes up a tradition that seems to carry his message/memes forward to the next one who picks it up and continues.

In that manner everything has the same roots, but they all go forward into different directions thus becoming different fruits, because everyone has a different personal perspective on how they lead or have lived through their lives.
Is this part of the point you were trying to make?

It is always a case of us vs them in any tradition. It is a way of bonding members together, and making them feel special like they are part of something bigger than themselves.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#52612 - 04/10/11 02:37 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Morgan]
Khk Offline
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I asked Diavolo if the groups expressed the same thing - I should have defined it further and asked what the respective groups SAID.

I used the word 'Express' implies not the consideration of what they said [Which is why I provided quotes for TOS but could also provide ample examples of ONA lit that state the same] but also ambiguously could mean a consideration of what they do, what they say they are doing, or whether they do what they are saying...

Morgan, you wrote: They start with a man, his ideas, his experience that colour his outlook, he gets inspired, and writes up a tradition that seems to carry his message/memes forward to the next one who picks it up and continues.

In that manner everything has the same roots, but they all go forward into different directions thus becoming different fruits, because everyone has a different personal perspective on how they lead or have lived through their lives.
Is this part of the point you were trying to make?

+O+ - On a specific level that can be included as part of the point. But the elements in that equation have more depth than the forms you've used to summarize them. I decided to ask questions one at a time because people keep jumping ahead of what I am asking them - and it seems I will to build my case very slowly, if at all. It is not a case of me simply coming out and saying what my point is - it has to be illustrated and experienced by the reader. Just as my mss Here be Dragons shows how easily assumptions are made, or my last Temple of THEM thread in 600 club tried to illustrate the sensation of the ego and the feeling that occurs when we resist it - by using language a certain way people aren't used to.
Yet, since every reply presents a re-interpretation of my point - which then becomes fixed in place - its necessary to correct what people have assumed is being said and find alternate ways to get my message across; which I have not managed to get to - because I must keep giving individual replies to break down
the assumptions and suppositions made by others that distort what I am trying to say - without letting me finish.

I'm sorry if my approach is not quickly expressed in a neat sentence or principle but doing that does not escape the prison, however eloquent - or that I do not 'get to the point' in a traditional or immediate manner. I'm an occultist and I set out to discern the Hidden. But its not easy to explain, and maybe I do a terrible job because I don't understand what I observe correctly - or maybe because I feel the means to explain it, to explain it at all, requires more than logical description - especially when the tools for explaination don't help to illustrate such hidden forces or points that lay outside of the matrix but just cause a chain reaction with every word printed that sets off other people associatively and who then, naturally, respond with their own thoughts - adding more and more forms and complexes that only complicate and increase the problem by exponentially increasing more and more associations.

*shrug* Sometimes - it does feel like a doomed path I take - but its important to me to try. So I will keep trying one step at a time if necessary to birth an awareness that does not exist - exist, as it is an antidote to form. Or prove myself mad, mis-guided or just a victim of my own mind in the process.

If the former maybe some new strain of thinking could occur that grows into something bigger and better than my own work.

If the latter, well, whats one more nutcase spouting off on another forum.

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#52614 - 04/10/11 02:50 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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On the other hand, I dont know if I even can explain it since explaination is not what needs to carry the message. It frustrates me that I cant communicate my understanding of forms without using them to do so - its like being trapped in a country where no-one else speaks the same language. It's exhausting. For me and probably for everyone else.

I think I will come back when or (if) I figure out some way to speak the language of form without using the traditional methods to do so.

ISS,
RA
Diavolo, thank you for trying to help. I'll try again later.


Edited by Khk (04/10/11 02:51 AM)

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#52623 - 04/10/11 08:38 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Diavolo Offline
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I'm sorry if I wasn't too helpful.

I see both as a manifestation of Will to Power, a reaction against a status quo using a similar approach for rather similar reasons and to reach similar goals, that is when looking at what is underlying it. The outward manifestation is however quite different.

Both created their Mythos and while this Mythos serves a purpose, I can't shrug off the idea the Mythos of the ToS is or was mainly ego-driven. Because of their schism with the CoS, they needed to find something which would establish the idea they, not only did the right thing, but that they were right too. They abandoned something which was “one of its kind” and thus had to be even more than “one of its kind”. I'd say I will remotely consider the option that the “Book of Coming Forth by Night” is genuine but alas, I can't. I cannot read it without spontaneously bursting out in laughter because some passages make me envision Atlas carrying the world on his back but on this occasion, the world is ego and it has been given a name too; Set. To me it is so obvious I am surprised that back in the day, none tapped his shoulder and asked “aren't we overplaying our hand?” But apparently they didn't and either during the beginning, everyone was in on the joke or they were very very gullible people. Nonetheless it worked.

One can apply similar criticism on the ONA Mythos and call it man-made or even far-out but the difference is that AL doesn't take, nor desire, a prominent ego-driven role in it, nor is the Mythos considered that important any participant must embrace it. In the ToS it is different, since god spoke to Mike and thus Mike is right, it is quite defining. When rejecting the very ToS Mythos, there is nothing left for the participant, while when rejecting the ONA Mythos, nothing changes. The difference between “Mike's way or the highway” and “your way or the highway”.

And not only is it defining, it is limiting at the same time. The ToS set its limits and when strolling beyond them, one is committing a “sin”, even when not necessarily described as such, experience and learning are only acceptable and tolerated when the practitioner remains within their established borders. The ONA actively encourages all participants to actively go beyond them, to seek and experience the unknown. ToS prefer to maintain control upon their participants while ONA doesn't care about them; whether they succeed or fail is not their concern.

I agree with you there are similarities beyond the fruits the trees grow but the different taste of fruits is quite defining here.

D.

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#52625 - 04/10/11 09:23 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Diavolo]
Khk Offline
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One more then... Diavolo, my departure has nothing to do with you being unhelpful - you were very helpful - but I don't expect you to abandon what you think feel and interpret just to suit my whim. In retrospect it was wrong to force your hand to do so. Please accept my apologies.

Goodnight.

ISS,
RA

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#52626 - 04/10/11 09:47 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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No need to apologize my friend; at no point I felt forced. I do have my views but I don't mind at all to abandon them or look at things differently if it is beneficial.

D.

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#52629 - 04/10/11 11:16 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Diavolo]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
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Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
I hate to sound like a relativist, which is as far from the truth as it could get, but I'd like to chip in with some praise for the different schools of thought discussed herein.

The Temple of Set: since delving into their practices and traditions, I have found much that appeals to me and much that makes sense. Different people see different points of merit. Or demerit. I wouldn't say I consider them ultimately right in their assertions, but the study gave me quite a few new thoughts, for which I am grateful.

ONA: I could as much deny my fascination with ONA as I could deny the sunrise. As a school of thought, it demands far more of its adherents than any branch out there. If you are prepared to experience it, as opposed to just contemplating it, there is much to be learned and much personal baggage to be lost.

Personally, I'm firmly grounded in Nietzsche, who, interestingly enough, is an ideal to both schools. My metaphysical notions were shaped by many schools of thought, but whenever I return to Nietzsche I find that they fit. The ideologies of many Satanic organizations spring from an appreciation of Nietzsche that I couldn't or shouldn't take issue with. The end result, however, generally doesn't fit me. It is not something I exult, despair or take pleasure in. It just is.

I find it hard to dismiss either school of thought out of hand, since I find their esoterics to be of worth when you suspend your own misgivings. I even think their distrust of other schools to be healthy, even while that effectively affects me.

If I were to address the specifics of my points of interest, I'd have to write a thesis of several thousand words, so I won't. Suffice to say that value is to be found in both conflict and contemplation, and I'm glad both ideologies exist. Were it not for Aquino or Myatt, I'd be less enlightened than I am. Of course, the same can be said about other luminaries in here, whom I'm proud to call my friends. You know who you are.

I guess my fascination with affiliation is a recurring theme, by which I try to acquire new insights. I've yet to encounter a memeplex I didn't learn anything from. I just balk at dismissing my other ideas just shy of buying the whole deal.

My own personal views might even be described as insane, extremist, demented or ludicrous, but they're mine, at least.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#52630 - 04/10/11 11:45 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Diavolo]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Yes both are assertions of Will to Power, in these mythos I see the great art of venturing into the wilderness of antinomian thought.

I can see that Diavolo and THEM work through the secrets of the manuscripts and that THEM is very aware of what to do with Satanic paradigms and what means they are for.

I think we can all take and go beyond whatever we are inspired by but the ONA was always more than a mythos insofar as me being suspicious as fuck upon first finding the ONA and thinking "this is just as interesting as serial killers!". What I get from the ONA is insight the same as I get from reading Mein Kampf or other extreme views, what happens is that a synthesis forms in which we see that everything has an opposing angle and that although we have the duality of opposites we can , yet this is the insight into manipulation with the powers of observation.

I found truth in the ONA mythos for highlighting the decayed vacuous platitudes of morality, "ideas about reality" which which society masquerades as "reality". The ONA utterly stultifies the tautological rhetoric of morally riddled with poetic disinformation that deflects from the issue of questions being answered.

This is a means to to reach revaluation from what is intrinsic to ones self, to see everything as meaningless can be passive nihilism whence one had become engaged in existential nihilism—humans are perceived as a hideous mass of subatomic particles sending morality and reason out the window "defunct" hence usual cerebrations such as justification or even reason for murder is not even an issue. But rather to accept the sciences and realse that we are of the earth and that we are designed this way to perceive our ecosystem and in this we see that the feral and bestial way as opposed to the spiritual is the way of the mundane "of the earth".

I have observed something that is both a meme and a behaviourism which appears to act as a transmissible agent amongst Satanist which manifests in inability to empathise with opposing ideas. The symptom is obliviously perpetuated unaware to the demiurge. Much like the terminal disease of life itself you are very unlikely to recognise it in yourself as being an affliction because it feels very nice. Satanist may compensate instead of fixing the problem. The cerebral and somatic demiurge is obsessed with viewing his unequalised brilliance, bodily aesthetic or ultimate sexual performance and that he has everlasting, all conquering love and passion but for this the demiurge requires excessive worship from his clay sentients. I know the demiurge very well. The demiurge assumes he is all powerful and he is foolish for not acknowledging his flaws as he assumes he is already at the pinnacle of omnipotence. Destroy the demiurge! What does not kill makes stronger. Destroy to rebuild.

Satanist can become deeply entrenched within one paradigm—utter vulnerability. Chaos magicians tend to banish beliefs often and paradigm shift into atheistic scientific paradigms.
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#52634 - 04/10/11 05:18 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Nietzsche was carted off for being insane. I am all about Nietzsche, I can say I'm grounded there because there is no stagnation in self overcoming and questioning morality. Nor is nihilism what contemporary Christian scholars would make out. We can see that the devaluation and revaluation of values is necessary for active progression as nihilism is inevitable to deny this or to simply be unaware, is to be consigned to decaying forms. We destroy to rebuild. I feel that Nietzsche gets quoted a lot and parroted by Satanist' but rarely applied? I also see those who push boundaries with the ideas.

We can see Nietzschean ideas in Anton LaVey's Satanism, Temple of Set, and The Order of Nine Angles and with this I always went back to the source of these ideas in Nietzsche's works. Much like how I go back to Peter J. Carroll's scientific concepts when working with paradigms, ONA was always used as a meta-belief (a consistent one no less) but all comes back to nihilism.


I see propensity in the Anti-Cosmic values and yet I never see anyone on this site or anywhere actually understanding anything of the paradigm and instead simply parroting lines from the texts or dismissing the values as to no means.

I haven't found anything to rival the brutality of Nietzschean philosophy in any Satanism though: cold hard reality revivifying human animality, most devastating and necessary.
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#52635 - 04/10/11 06:57 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Hegesias]
Caladrius Offline
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Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Hegesias
... ONA was always used as a meta-belief (a consistent one no less) but all comes back to nihilism.


I see propensity in the Anti-Cosmic values and yet I never see anyone on this site or anywhere actually understanding anything of the paradigm...


I've read just about all ~5000 pages written by 'Anton Long,' [ONA] as well - more importantly - the hundreds of pages written by David Myatt for his The Numinous Way, plus everything having to do with Reichsfolk.

Never have I come across anything in the ONA and DM's expression of the wordless, that feels like "nihilism." [Who knows, maybe I dislike nihilism so much I just filter it out].

After reading Myatt's personal writings, and seeing the same thoughts expressed thru "Anton Long," how do you extrapolate nihilism out of everything. Such that you end up claiming that everything ever expressed by the ONA goes back to some nihilism?

I am curious to know where you are getting this idea from. Show me a few quotes by any of the major contributors of ONA memes that states that the ONA is fundamentally nihilistic. I'd like to see what you are reading that I am not. This is bugging me.

The other thing bugging me is your inability to distinguish the ONA from the ToBL. I speak of your continuous talk about this idea of "Anti-Cosmic" gibberish. That's cool if this Anti-Cosmic concept is your cup of tea, but ONA has nothing to do with this concept.

The "Acausal" aka "Life Force" is not "anti-cosmic" in the sense that "acausal" "energy" seeks to destroy the maya of the physical cosmos aka the causal. The Cosmos is BOTH causal+acausal. The causal part being a condensation of the life force.

There are certain issues or complaints I have with the ToBL, and it irritates me to have ToBL stuff mixed with ONA.

The first issue is that whoever put the ToBL together was one who was influenced by Hindu mysticism, but was not a native of this matrix. Being an "outsider" merely influenced by Hindu mysticism this person utilizes Sanskrit words in erroneous ways that do not make sense to someone who comes from a people or culture that speaks a language descended from Sanskrit/Pali [such as myself].

One example is the level of beings the ToBL names [I can't remember where I read this, but it was offensive] where they use the word "Bhava." Normally the word "Bhava" does not or is not used to denote a Being/Entity. The word means to "Exist," or to "Become," or "A State of Being." The word for a being/creature - animal on up to gods - is "Sat(a)." As in Sat meaning creature or animal; Sat-Manussa meaning Human BEING; Sat-Dev/Dep meaning Luminescent Creature or "god Being." Bhavachakra is not a creature or Entity. Bhava means Life/Existence/Becoming. Bhavana is the Pali word used by the Buddha to denote "meditation" of certain kinds that calls things into BEING or that causes one to BECOME a new person in a new state of BEING.

The other issue I have with with the ToBL is their use of Maya [anti-cosmic] without knowing where the Hindus got that idea from and why it exists in Hinduism today.

The idea of Maya developed early during the decline of Brahmanism when Buddhism became the official religion of the Empire. Because of its official status, Brahamanism began to decline.

During this time the early schools of Buddhism developed a line of thought called Pacchaka which would later be called Vibhajjavada. Pacchaka basically means to See With One's Own Eyes.

The idea was to use Pacchaka with Dhamma. Here Dhamma meaning Natural Phemomena. The idea was to Pachhaka Dhamma for the Paramattha Saccha.

Paramattha saccha meaning the Obvious or Ultimate Truth, which is above sammuti saccha or agreed/conventional truth. Paramattah saccha are Actual facts of suchness and things that are Obvious. For example the dhamma/phenomenon of the Sun is a paramattha sacch, it is obvious and is beyond consensus, agreement, and conventional truth. The sun just is.

The early Buddhist philosophers thus ended up stating antagonistically to the dwindling Brahamanists that with Pacchaka, they can study natural phenomena for the Actual Facts of reality [paramattah saccha]. Therefore, what things cannot be uncovered or observed in natural phenomena is not Actual and Factual.

This was a big threat to Brahmanism, because they had thousands of gods that cannot be observed anywhere in natural phenomena. So to counter the early Buddhist idea of basing Truths on the Actaul Stuffness/Phenomena of Nature, the early Brahamanist philosophers invented the concept of Maya.

Basically they they were saying: "Oh yeah, well the whole physical world is an unreal illusion, therefore what truths you extrapolate from this illusion is inherently untruth. The real world is beyond the illusion, where we base our truths. Therefore our truths is True and our Gods are real."

So anyhow; I would like for you to explain to me exactly where in the ONA - quoting writings - where the ONA states that it agrees with this idea of Maya, Anti-Cosmic mombo jumbo. Where in the ONA does it say that the causal universe is unreal, an illusion, a prison, which must be destroyed by letting in acausal force to annihilate the physical universe?

The very fact that you and I and animals and trees are alive - endued with Life Force [acausal per Myatt/ONA] suggests that acausal "energy" does not destroy the causal universe BUT in fact adds to it, animates it, with life.

How do you claim the ONA yet mix ToBL stuff with it and assert or claim that ToBL worldviews is ONA? Where in the ONA does Myatt and Friends state that ONA world-model/weltanschauung is Nihilistic and anti-cosmic. Show me. Not your interpretations, personal understandings, or extrapolations. I'd like to see actual writing by Anton Long/Myatt and others top contributors such as Beesty Boy, etc.

The ONA and the ToBL are not the same things. Can you tell the difference? If you can, stop stating that the ONA is nihilism and anti-cosmic. But please explain to me what this "anti-cosmic" paradigm is. I'd like to know.


Edited by Caladrius (04/10/11 07:14 PM)
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#52641 - 04/10/11 10:34 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Caladrius]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I can't say I have read any of The Numinous Way but Reichsfolk is interesting but I only see propensity for subversion, I was actually motivated to buy Mein Kampf from which I got piercing insight into will to power.

Ok I will try and answer your questions. I am not as heavily learned as you on the ONA but I own dead tree editions of NAOS and BBoS and read the older ONA MSS (I like to say dead tree edition and yes I wasted money of shit Lulu.com extortion site because The Heresy Press was down for a while). Anyway I was suspect of the newer stuff when it re emerged a few years back, I'm like this to accuse the most appealing things of being bent, I even made claims to the owner of mysatan that he was a Muslim and some of the ONA sites were being infiltrated by Christian law official spies. *cricket sounds*

In regard to.

"We can see Nietzschean ideas in Anton LaVey's Satanism, Temple of Set, and The Order of Nine Angles and with this I always went back to the source of these ideas in Nietzsche's works. Much like how I go back to Peter J. Carroll's scientific concepts when working with paradigms, ONA was always used as a meta-belief (a consistent one no less) but all comes back to nihilism."

So "All comes back to nihilism" was simply a nod to Nietzschean ideas of active nihilism being present, I also mentioned that I recognise those who push boundaries with the ideas. "All comes back to nihilism" (intentionally) could have been taken as a negative connotation or a positive connotation that no matter what beliefs we have we eventually become victims of those beliefs unless we take control and make a revaluation of values. Destroy to rebuild comprende? I am often two voices speaking.

That being said, and hopefully appearing as words of mere insanity by many but able to be understood by a one Caladrius, I will address the stimulating questions asked.


Firstly I was not comparing as I was listing three useful paradigms I have used to negate societal ways of thinking. The Anti-Cosmic and misanthropic values being "influenced by" The Order of Nine Angels manuscripts and not the other way around. That the acausal being the Chaos permeating nature and making us alive is looked at from quite different positions in the two orders (MLO and ONA) and there are seemingly opposing conclusions coming from common premises or missing premises, regardless, Anti-Cosmic is anti demiurge, the bastard demiurge is only the phenomenal form of it's idea—the ego cultivated world by which the individual is shackled, see?. A vast difference in rhetoric and metaphor between the ONA and TotBL, whilst ONA is direct with subversive teachings and subtexts for practical means whilst TotBL is centred on the individuals deprogramming by design and is a nasty piece of work beyond what I have seen people display an understanding of. This view is based on what I see beneath from a psychological and scientific atheistic perspective. Bare in mind I am immensely nihilistic and devalue and revalue the knowledge that I turn within myself to synthesise understanding, this means I do not listen to the parroting of others on Anti-Cosmic Satanism or otherwise things they wish to portray knowledge of whilst deflecting from the issue of any personal understandings having being synthesised.

Your questions will be difficult to explain answers for in few words and I will attempt to paint you a holistic picture as I have an inability to plan and I am impulsive. I hinted at "everything" coming back to nihilism. Why? Because I don't look at beliefs as solid and sound life parameters, none but nature, I don't wish to decay in the stagnation of the decayed beliefs of others, I take inspiration and go forth. You must understand that the word nihilism is used by those who are set in their beliefs and have a bias toward the idea that threatens their own way of life. This is something hard to explain from the different viewpoints so I will have to be two voices speaking to reveal what they are describing in between.

Religiously created abstractions and names of gods is nothing to do with the existentialistic values of the Atheist individual I would think? Archetypes in Satanist paradigms are only flag poles in the mind to work through understandings, my understandings, which relate more to psychology and the mundane which is nature, I synthesise what I see beneath it all and come to simplicity. What do you see around you? People and they have created shit haven't they, they are rotting in the shit that they have created. What do you see beneath Satanist paradigms? I see something useful and extreme to apply. I think, what will this do for my life through "my" mindset.

Nietzsche saw nihilism as the consequence of the “death of God.” and in this it ought to be understood that nihilism is not limited to that decay of only that belief. "our" Satanist morality is not Christian morality you may say that you are "amoral" or "immoral" but these are oppositional terms denoting that one has denounced conventional morality, and subsequently created your "own" morality which you yourself have come to "realise" is intrinsic for you which I will describe at the end of this post (if one has not come to begin the revaluation of values then one is with passive nihilism.and going nowhere fast). There have been those that say Christianity is weak and shrivelled so Satanist waste there time with pointless iconoclasm. Such is true insofar as iconoclasm will not effect the subterranean rooted conspiracy of Christianity. Society is Christianity, the decayed morality of atheistic society is passively nihilistic, in this I mean that the withered morality and thinking of Christianity is still present in just about every western person even though they don't pray and don't wear crosses, they perpetuate equality pathos that holds back the natural growth, active nihilism is freedom or Satan is freedom. Nihilism is a very multi purpose word with connotations in different contexts just like the wordplay of "mundane", the word "mundane" in ONA context would be the oblivious materialist who is hubris in thinking, he is top of the world because he has a life with all the worthless junk that everyone is supposed to have because the TV told him this is the way to be for "happiness"....inwardly nauseating to look at. Yet mundane can be "of the earth" pertaining to nature and ones will to be the meaning of the earth. I always refer to myself as mundane on purpose and certainly not relating to societal mundanity..So nihilism left unchecked, what does nihilism in this context do? Look around you at the "mundanes".

Society's structure is based on the belief of God and the Christian set of morals whether you like it or not and so are the courts of law. When the people do not believe in God and still live by the values of Christianity, we have passive nihilism which is a means to an end, oblivious meaninglessness, utter tragedy with smiles. Come now, look at xmas time, all the Atheist are celebrating the unclean birth. But it's just hanging shit on a tree right? — an understatement about a dead and meaningless routine where society is an empty husk of Christianity and so are the people. Passive nihilism. Oblivious nihilism.

Understand this. Only through the deconstruction of this society's decayed values can we make new. Every purely moral system ends in nihilism. To understand that active nihilism is not the same as passive and oblivious nihilism, to be aware that the devaluation of values is necessary to the revaluation of values. Extreme positions are not succeeded by moderate ones but by extreme positions of the opposite kind. Whence comes the belief in the absolute immorality of nature. Active nihilism as a sign of increased power of the spirit and "this" nihilism is "freedom" from what you see around you. The sobering recognition of what is will to power and a determined revaluation of values coming into focus, ones intrinsic values.

Satan is freedom, we progress or die.
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#52642 - 04/10/11 11:41 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Hegesias]
Caladrius Offline
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Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Hegesias

"We can see Nietzschean ideas... these ideas in Nietzsche's ... "All comes back to nihilism" was simply a nod to Nietzschean ideas ... Nietzsche saw nihilism as...


Yes, yes, yes, "Nietzsche said this and that and the other things."

Seems as thoe Nietzsche is the most popular guy ever to walk the earth to the counter-cultural Westerner?

Which is fine. My personal little bug with this Nietzsche thing is a cultural thing. Being Eastern in culture, I am aware of OTHER philosphers. Some dumber than a Western philosopher, some more insane than a European philosopher, but some who existed hundreds of years before the Europeans were Free to think and ponder who were just as insightful.

Nietzsche is just a ripple in the Human Pond of ideas and philosophical rambling. One that many Satanists make into a demigod.

My whole personal attitude and feelings regarding philosophical ramblings of others is that it's all crap. I hate philosophy. If I like any type of philosophical rambling - which anybody can do - it's my own philosophical rambling that I can tolerate most of the time. Other wise it's BS. It's just some clown juggling ideas in their heads. I can be a clown and juggle ideas too.

I like to keep thing concrete: on the real, science, physics, zoology, violence, gangs, crime, shit I can tough, smell, see, hear, taste, experience right? The last thing I personally want is to read about or hear someone ramble about reified crap. I can do that myself.

The point is Nietzsche is nobody. He may be somebody to you and others here, but to the other 7 billion humans who is he? Have you or I heard the philosophical ramblings of every wise guy in the East of West across the vast expanse of Human History? No we haven't. Yet we make idols of so very few, and believe that what junk they juggle is worth more than what may have been said before, or what you or I ourselves can say or juggle on our own.

We each have the same 3 pound brain, and access to the same body of Phenomena. If I want to juggle ideas and speculate about reality, I can do it myself. At least I believe I can think for myself to a certain extent.

When somebody like me uses the word "mundane" in context to the ONA I mean it as the Pali/Sanskrit words "Loka," and "Anariya." Loka meaning "world," not the planet world or the earth or the jungle world, but the "world" meaning the common public or populous in toto. Thus, Lokuttara meaning "transcend" does not denote a transcending of the earth or planet. It simply means to strive to go beyond the common public/populous. Anariya meaning An [Non] + Ariya [Noble/Arya].

Most of the time when I or many ONA associates want to refer to the planet earth we use the word "Earth," and when we want to refer to the jungle, trees, life forms in the Earth, we usually use the word "Nature" with a capital N.

Technically there is nothing "mundane" about Nature or the Earth. Faggot egalitarianism and equality does not exist as a natural ethos of Nature and Her organisms [see 19th Enochain Key or Mother Nature]. Nature is not common, She is Diverse, each part is Unique, and every organism has its own Way of Life specific to its species. This is the total opposite of the common populous of any given city/state, where if you are different and do not act, dress, think, and do like them you are hated. To call Mother Nature "mundane" is an insult.

Technically the ONA is not "misanthropic," in the sense that ONA exists to hate and kill people. ONA is more Collectivist, more people oriented hence: tribes and clans and associates, and Duty, Honour, and Loyalty. Duty, Honour, and Loyalty to who? To OTHERS. I personally think it is slightly hypocritical or childish to claim to be misanthropic, but yet yearn for social interaction on or in or with the cyber medium or any other medium where the so called misanthropist can interact with OTHERS. The Unabomber I think was the only true misanthropist.

As far as the ONA's stance on Nietzsche and others goes, I will quote a MS for the record, which will end my interactions in this thread:

[Begin Quote]
Source

"Nietzsche, Darwin, Others, and The Seven-Fold Sinister Way"

For many many decades, the iconoclastic weltanschauung of Nietzsche has been used, and Nietzsche’s works approvingly quoted from, by many of those who claim to adhere to Occult ways such as The Left Hand Path and to various flavours of Satanism, and also by those who admire or who claim to follow the causal form known as National-Socialism.

In a similar manner, many such adherents of such Occult ways or such causal forms write and speak approvingly about what is vulgarly known as the survival of the fittest, or about principles of so-called social Darwinism, or some other such vulgar -ism.

But such use of the weltanschauung of Nietzsche – and such quoting of the writing of that author – are irrelevant from the acausal perspective of The Seven-Fold Sinister Way, just as the use of the works and theories of any person, any author, any theorist, whomsoever they are, is irrelevant. Why? Because such a use and such a quoting and such a reliance upon, are redolent of the neophyte, the new Initiate – of someone at the very beginning of our Seven-Fold Way; someone who, having been inspired by whomsoever and whatsoever, has to then move-on from admiration, emulation (and other such neophyte things) toward and into a direct, practical, and personal experiencing of Life and of the sinister which is an aspect of such Life.

An example may illustrate this. The weltanschauung and some of the writings of Nietzsche may enthral many an adolescent who possesses an instinct, or an aptitude, for the sinister; but as that adolescent experiences the passion, pleasure and the longing of a deep personal love, and the ecstasy, trauma, and personal loss of physical deadly combat – and other such personal affecting experiences – then, if they are of our kind, they grow and mature, drawing from their own, unique, pathei-mathos, a very personal, a very direct, knowing of themselves and others. Thus, the affectations, the inspirations, and the petulant arrogance, of their early learning years, of their adolescence, are left behind to be replaced by the beginnings of that natural wisdom that slowly emerges from within themselves. In brief, they move toward being mature, self-aware, individuals who are not deceived about themselves, with this moving toward usually taking a certain duration of causal Time, often of two decades or more.

Similarly, the sinister novice, following our Seven-Fold Way and undertaking the tasks, the Grade Rituals, the Insight Roles, of that Way, changes and grows, by the inner alchemical process that is the essence of that practical Way. Thus do they, also, if they successfully journey along our Way, move toward being mature, self-aware, individuals who are not deceived about themselves, having awoken, drawn forth, experienced, understood, and integrated, their latent Baeldraca, with this usually taking a certain duration of causal Time, often a decade or more.

In contrast, those who do not possesses an instinct or an aptitude for the sinister continue to wallow in such adolescent things, lacking as they do direct, practical, life-threatening, experience of not only the sinister but of Life itself in both of its causally-objectified aspects of Light and Dark. Thus do such individuals remain mundane, and thus do they continue to use and rely on the works, the words, the -isms and the -ologies, of others, and thus do they approvingly continue to quote the dead words and the texts of others, and thus does such quoting of such dead words and texts mark them as mundane.

For all such works, all such words, all the theories – of others, whomsoever they may be (including a certain Anton Long) – are only and ever, at their very best, an affective beginning of, an inspiration for, a personal journey that is always new, and is now, has been and always will be, practical, a direct learning from our own pathei-mathos. After this journey begins, the works, the words, of others, all -ologies and all -isms, are and must be discarded, replaced by our own learning, by the inspiration that is our own life; and which new learning, which new inspiration, of ours will and always should be discarded by others, when their own turn of pathei-mathos arises.

This is the real essence of our Sinister Way – a way of useful and practical techniques which provoke inner, alchemical, change within individuals and which re-connect us to what exists beyond our still inherent causality. The words, the forms, are only words, forms – causal, temporal, vessels of the beyond-acausal wordless essence. An essence which has to be experienced, known, presenced, understood, by each and every individual in their own way in their own fateful species of Time, and which fateful species of Time is, in causal duration, much shorter than would occur without such a journey along such a Sinister Way.

Thus it is, as mentioned so many times before, that the Order of Nine Angles – as for instance the presencing that is the Seven-Fold Way and the presencing that are our Dreccian nexions – is only and ever a guide, an inspiration, a useful map: a means not the goal; a kollective of individuals whose own pathei-mathos may be learned from, may be inspiring and useful; and a kollective of useful and practical techniques and useful nexions which have been shown by experience to work in the necessary wyrdful way, and which thus can awaken, draw forth, the Baeldraca of individuals and move them toward experiencing, understanding, and integrating this new living being which was nascent within the separate individual we once perceived ourselves to be, but which is us and yet of all other Life, presenced in both causal and acausal form and what exists beyond and between all such forms causal and acausal.

For it is from such personal, direct experiencing, understanding, and integration, that affective and the necessary outer and inner change, and thus wyrdful evolution, occurs – a wyrdful evolution both individual and Aeonic and in a species of Time which, in causal duration, is much much shorter than might occur without the acausal presencing that Adepts are.

Thus it is that Adepts – and those more evolved along the sinister way – not only consciously participate in their own wyrdful evolution, in that of our human species, and that of the Cosmos, but also are and become such wyrdful evolution in such a varied presencing of causal and acausal forms, until, finally, they egress beyond all forms to become, to-be, of the living Cosmos itself.


Anton Long
Order of Nine Angles
122 Year of Fayen

[End Quote]

In conclusion, "nihilism" and "anti-cosmic" has no place in ONA Proper. This is not to say that the individual ONA person/initiate can see value in that stuff. But if we get off on such things, it's a personal matter and not an orgy [an ONA thing] \:\)




Edited by Caladrius (04/11/11 12:30 AM)
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#52658 - 04/11/11 09:37 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Caladrius]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm not that dismissive to philosophy and I don't really think you are since all we do is based upon philosophy which provides motives and objectives for experience, out of which the gained insights evolve the very philosophy that was the catalyst of them. I might be wrong but what you dislike might maybe be the complete adaptation towards a certain philosophy instead of making it your own and adapt, remove or add that which suits you better.

I am rather fond of Mad Freddy but I doubt very much he was a nihilist. Still, he did groundbreaking work here and anyone delving into it will find quite a good start towards liberating themselves from the current ideological dogmas. In a way, he is hinting at a path not too distinct from ONA. But he's not the end of all things, as ONA isn't.

I agree that we are culturalists when it comes to placing importance upon philosophy. The West tends to only value that which is provided by the West and there are great insights to be found in the East. Sadly most are either unknown, quite hard to understand or popularized into a Western pop-philosophical package.

D.

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#52659 - 04/11/11 09:47 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Caladrius]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Wonderful. Your posts are excellent.

I will use mundane to describe Nature, jungles and trees or whatever environment is not important, what is important is to recognise the cold hard reality within nature and that nature is freedom. My realm is beyond the false numbing environment of morally decayed society who live in the graveyard of god and materialistic compensatory shelter, it's far from mundane and more like they are delusional, from my angle I am the mundane and quite a lot of others are something alien—tragic plastic smiles, like apes raised in cages eating their own dead infants not knowing any better. Only cold hard reality for me thanks and it's not sinister or anything to do with anything mystical or otherwise esoteric, my esoteric knowledge only goes so far as personal empathy and the powers of observation, it's nothing special. Also I'm not really all that sinister, I don't think like that, I'm just beyond conventional morality and make decisions based on necessity, I treat enemies as a chore—calculated and dispassionate as violence is something I'm used to and nothing to get exited over. My enemies not merit special torture but rather a quick removal like unwanted rubbish. Although I have administered immense emotional trauma to certain enemies this was when I was younger and tantalised by such things, now I prefer a quick dismissal as to regard the enemy as waste that I won't even empathise sadistically with.

I'm just a man, there is nothing special about me at all I am equalised with the ever changing environment, I am not part of any progressive movement nor have I think I have attained enlightenment or mystical connection with nature and the cosmos. Nihilism is one of the most complex issues to explain and simply parroting lines of Nietzsche is not something I care to do. Others may be able to amass a world of knowledge on many scholarly subjects and have more experience than me in real life and philosophies but I can hardly manage to address all the thought provoking issues in these few books I have, I have stuff to work with for years regarding Nietzsche's works and maybe it's because I'm slow? I certainly don't idolise Nietzsche, though the innumerable philosophical questioned raised by him are more relevant today than they were back then. For my environment and where I am self overcoming and will to power is very relevant. I actually equate to Bruce Lee's Taoism and philosophical concepts more than any Satanism. The freedom and propensity of Satan is innate in me and thus to live in this societal environment I require calmness and flexibility.

I'm not a scholar or a theologian, I am just a common man who has become tired of court trials for unavoidable violence, people are incommunicable and don't realise they are vulnerable to people like me and wade in displaying unstable disposition and propensity to be a problem. Understanding what is relevant to my environment is paramount and I am not "based on Nietzschean philosophy", philosophy "and" a scientific outlook is a means to understanding my own self and because I am impulsive and violent, I act first and think after and have no need to be sinister or to treat the world as anything threatening because I'm lethal and sure of it. I am the apparatus and scientist performing the ongoing experiment of life. If I am not familiar with the apparatus which is me, I cannot make a sound observation nor could I progress and upgrade my specifications if I was unaware of my lacking. Understanding of the human species, in as many ways, helps me avoid jail time. My freedom is most important. I do not exist to hate and kill people, those are collateral consequences of dispassion as I was born with violent propensity, my hatred does not burn not like a lively flame but deep like slumbering coals. My hatred has no emotional attachment as enemies are not worth a reaction other than to shut them down, I see violence as logical and necessary and nothing to be motivated by, I'm way too important to base my life on crushing insects, just sometimes the sick irony comes round where you face jail for having done so.
_________________________


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#52669 - 04/11/11 12:41 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Hegesias]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
You know I enjoy your posts and this should not be considered criticism on your part as much as some conflicts I see within nihilism as a practical philosophy. I agree that the world is devoid of meaning and that all that is attributed is “made up” but in some rather ironic manner, the nihilists do the same; their very world without meaning or value is in what they see meaning and find value. It is the inevitable flaw of humanity that it is cursed to grant meaning to something and that can only be escaped by ending to be human and even that escape is full of meaning.

As such, we can't but erect a castle even when fully realizing it is built upon quicksand.

D.

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#52674 - 04/11/11 02:18 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Diavolo]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
(I had to add a small part of a previous post to make this clearer).

Diavolo that was excellent and I do most appreciate criticism as I attempt to battle my own ego illusions daily, and yes, nihilism is something very hard to describe which encompasses many angles and contexts for instance I could propose that a Christian is perpetuating nihilism insofar as he does not value life due to afterlife beliefs overshadowing the value of life itself yet an active nihilist will devalue Christianity because he does not believe in an afterlife, and yet he will always come back to nature as nature is inexorably and inexplicably "there", it is harsh and devastating and offers no comforts. We come to a revaluation of values from the ground up not from blindly accepting them. In this we see that all of us Satanist do this by choosing "left path".

We learn our own values and morality from experience and ordeals which teach us through necessity. Will to power of the overman, he will inherit the earth and with this inheritance comes the exposure to responsibility. Do we want it? Or are we on the verge of frenzy as an animal in a cage, or do we consider that everyone has to find out who they are to be aware of their propensity for actions before they wind up in a predicament. The innate quality of Satan serves it's own purpose and in everyone's soul he can be felt. It doesn't obey nor submit to anyone or anything. It runs amok. Society's decayed moral and ethical values are against the freedom of Satan and for anyone to assume that their imposed moral "improvement" of the human species does not cultivate repression and frustration about those who are beyond the constraints. Remember..

The necessity to be oneself passes all moral barriers.
_________________________


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#52675 - 04/11/11 03:26 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Hegesias]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
To return to the basics; the Left-Hand Path is, in its naked form, a survival strategy. The same goes for its cousin and supposed opposite, the Right-Hand Path. Survival strategies are essential for success in life. Both carry intrinsic benefits. The RHP is egalitarian and community-centred, ensuring that there is an establishment that keeps the herd docile and content. Although my description sounds dismissive, it is a path that carries definite benefits for those willing to forgo their own priorities in favour of the collective. It ensures a cultural baseline, an ethical norm and a collaborative collective in which herd protection extends to all.

This is, however, marred by the egotistical drives of the human animal. It does not render the RHP invalid, just flawed. The LHP, on the other hand, has its own distinct benefits and drawbacks. It does not carry the ideal of the collective, and does not extend its aegis to all of the same persuasion. Its strength lies in the individual, which is its focus. Excellence, growth, self-development - these are the key ideals. To see reality and oneself without falsehood.

In this, even the LHP is flawed in the eyes of the RHP. It doesn't carry collective protection, doesn't establish a sense of community, doesn't establish a baseline for ethics and decency and doesn't offer safety. To which most LHP factions I've heard of respond: "So?"

It has been my supreme privilege to know the nobility of LHP practitioners who, in spite of their self-focus, decide to collaborate with others out of mutual respect and interest. In my opinion, they are the only true humanists left, in that they appreciate the human animal for its multi-faceted splendour and capacity for greatness. Where the RHP says "good enough", the LHP responds "why? I can do better."

When I praise the different memeplexes on offer within the LHP, it is with this in mind. And no proponent so lucid or selling of modern Satanism than LaVey. He proposed a memeplex of such incredible simplicity and elegance that we would be reduced to fighting over the remnants of his legacy were it not for the intrinsic individuality of the LHP. He was a pathfinder. Of course, he cherrypicked many of his key ideas from others, but the thing is; he did it.

Nietzsche was his ideological forefather, and a noble one at that. In learning about Nietzsche, I have delved deeper and learned more about the LHP than I was able to just from other sources. And here's my point: all sources within the LHP have focussed on a different aspect, and provide a more profound take on key elements within the LHP. That they're at odds and show each other disdain is as it should be.

In existing, the LHP negates the essential meaninglessness of reality.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#52679 - 04/11/11 05:08 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Hegesias]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I agree with what you say and that which you point at has been described as nay-saying or yea-saying in which yea-saying is embracing Will to Power, which is Will to Life, which is indulging the very experience of living itself. If there is nihilism to be found, it is only during the very moments of the experience itself, then there is no value or meaning, everything just is, and not until afterward we reflect, we start to valuate, learn, change, and are driven to yet another experience.

The Overman, to me, is not someone who has overcome but someone who fully represents “to overcome”. It is through living and embracing conflict that we change, that we overcome and in such, the importance lies not in the valuation or moralization of those conflicts, nor in the judgment of good or evil, good or bad, but in seeking and experiencing the very conflict itself. It is in these conflicts we can release our Will to Power and truly indulge our Will to Life. It is in these conflicts we are the very catalyst not only for our own change but for all that are involved. The Overman will overcome and when it is his turn, be overcome.

No matter what end-goal in mind, no matter what idealization, it will be nothing but a stage for conflict for yet another to overcome. The reason our elders cherished the gods of strife and war was because only they represent change, they are at a continuous war with the status quo. It is through them we advance and all which doesn't will be destroyed.

D.

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#52721 - 04/12/11 02:55 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Hegesias]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Hegesias
Nietzsche saw nihilism as the consequence of the death of God.


IMO the problem here is the use of the word nihilism - it's just another -ism, people! Like all -isms and -ologies it may be useful/inspiring initially, but then via practical sinister experience (which includes sorcery, insight roles, etc) you move onto (or should do, surely) an understanding the essence behind all such causal forms, and which takes you beyond all causal forms, like the ONA's star game and development of dark empathy take you beyond causal forms and the words used to describe them.

The acausal as defined by the ONA is just an attempt to express the essence beyond causal forms - beyond the simple cause-and-effect that doesn't even explain *life*.

Even God is a human manufactured causal form/abstraction, like our *self*, which makes *the philosophy of self-deification* that permeates most of the LHP today just more guff.

Beyond this *self* is where Aeons, nexions, clans, law of the sinister numen, wyrd, the acausal and acausal *energy*, come into the picture. After which, you're on your own as you (should) develop your own answers \:\)

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#52723 - 04/12/11 03:12 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida

Interesting post, clear and well written - thanks.

 Originally Posted By: SkaffenAmtiskaw
To return to the basics; the Left-Hand Path is, in its naked form, a survival strategy. The same goes for its cousin and supposed opposite, the Right-Hand Path. Survival strategies are essential for success in life. Both carry intrinsic benefits.

The RHP is egalitarian and community-centred.... The LHP does not carry the ideal of the collective, and does not extend its aegis to all of the same persuasion. Its strength lies in the individual, which is its focus. Excellence, growth, self-development


If we use those criteria, then it would seem like the ONA is both LHP and RHP given its *law of the sinister numen*, its division of people into *us* and *mundanes* and its promotion of clans, sinister tribes, gangs.


 Originally Posted By: SkaffenAmtiskaw
here's my point: all sources within the LHP have focussed on a different aspect, and provide a more profound take on key elements within the LHP. That they're at odds and show each other disdain is as it should be.


Agreed!

 Originally Posted By: SkaffenAmtiskaw
In existing, the LHP negates the essential meaninglessness of reality.


I'd express it slightly differently - the LHP offers a means of perception and understanding which takes us beyond the limited perception and limited understanding of reality (the *meaning*) that all causal forms/abstractions/language provide.

This alternative perception/understanding reveals all *meaning* as just imposed causal forms, which forms include our notion and belief in *the self*.

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#52748 - 04/12/11 06:23 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SinisterMoon]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
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Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
The ONA RHP? I guess it depends on where you are in the hierarchy. Jake told of his time in the CoS that it was expected of everyone that they do their jobs. They could be kings 'outside'. Once you agree to membership in an organization you effectively need to collaborate. Same goes for families. I take care of mine because they're mine.

I guess it's down to the individual. The ONA seems to me like a different animal seen from the outside as compared to the inside.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#52764 - 04/12/11 11:47 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
It depends upon what one qualifies as RHP.

If we look at LHP and RHP as evolving through raw experience or by proxy; we all are both. If you define LHP and RHP as merely a matter of being a believer or Atheist, one can shift in and out of both when delving into experience. If LHP is about solely being ego-centered and RHP being collective-centered, any ego-centered attempt to a collective means wouldn't that be both? Especially when the one can be chosen at the expense of the other.

D.

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#53016 - 04/15/11 08:37 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SinisterMoon]
Jackshyte Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/15/11
Posts: 7
Loc: Texass
Whew! I was beginning to think that this thread only had one poster! Glad to know this is still a discussion, and not just an ONA info-outlet!
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#53177 - 04/19/11 10:41 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Jackshyte]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
You read all that - and that was the best, the most efficient usage of your time and understanding you could contribute, Jackshyte? Your name is apt. In terms of scope and its encompassing range - everything is an ONA info-outlet. Sometimes the best example is the bad example.
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#53184 - 04/20/11 06:00 AM Following Orders and RHP Mirages [Re: Khk]
nocTifer Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 87
Loc: Khazakstan
By epitome or ideal one can make anything one likes out of something that struggles against orthodoxies (as LHPs do). Generalizations, however, are blatant falsities due to extension, including notions of survival strategies or meaning. Advocating what one wants a thing to be is of a different character than explicating its parameters and ideals. Ultimately it is unimportant what the RHP thinks of individuals who don't subsume their egos to their collectivism. On its own and of necessity, the LHP offers nothing consistently, nor does the RHP, as they are both modalities of offering.

All groups, all hierarchies tend toward RHP modality. Flimsy, fantastical conjecture is easy to engage as a LHP "entity" because it bears no responsibility, and there is never an ego-centered attempt at a collective. Quaint indicators of RHP modalities are insults, ridicule, and personal-demolition. Those who challenge what is corporate and collective are denounced, mocked, and opposed as part of group-legitimation. The 'New LHP' is the mirage of LHP values masked onto RHP constructs and dynamics (orders, fascist leader worship, personal delusion and disempowerment disguised as mystical development). Don't believe the hype. Watch for signs of corruption.
_________________________
Troll Towelhead, Grand Mufti of Satanism
http://www.facebook.com/Tr0llT0welhead
http://www.gospel-of-satan.com

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#53253 - 04/21/11 09:09 AM Re: Following Orders and RHP Mirages [Re: nocTifer]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
By epitome or ideal one can make anything one likes out of something that struggles against orthodoxies (as LHPs do). Generalizations, however, are blatant falsities due to extension, including notions of survival strategies or meaning.

+O+ I concur - generalizations are blatant falsities due to extension - one cannot have an Orthodoxy of the RHP without tensioning it against an equally abstract dualist LHP - wherein esoteric experience requires neither and there manifests neither Hand or Any Hand regardless of the generalizations one wields with the rational mind under the semblance of getting it to do ones will. +O+

Advocating what one wants a thing to be is of a different character than explicating its parameters and ideals.

+O+ On some level yes. Yet both are ultimately abstract premises built on further abstractions +O+

...the LHP offers nothing consistently, nor does the RHP, as they are both modalities of offering.

Modalities (NLP?) as you say are equivalent to the 23 syndrome - if one is looking for 23, sets the mind up to see through windows of 23, one will see 23. The only way to be sure one does not see 23 by default is to try and trick 23 by performing an insight role in the opposite modality allowing room for a synthesis from the divided extremes - yet even here, the deceitful occult ego tends not to allow authentic delivery from ones doubts. +O+

+O+ I enjoyed your differentiation - but it uses dualized tensions of opposites to compare/manifest the two whereas I did think you were trying to say there is No Hand Path. In which case I would agree completely but you describe separate lists of attributions for two paths, so I am unsure... +O+






Edited by Khk (04/21/11 09:11 AM)

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#53254 - 04/21/11 09:15 AM Re: Following Orders and RHP Mirages [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Anyway... I have figured out a way to get my earlier point across regarding the Tension of Abstraction by using a minimal amount of words, avoiding the duality/morality in language, and without being tripped up on forms.

The only way I can devise - and it is not an easy route or a quick route - is a rise in direct experience of what I speak. Therefore, its necessary to find a way to make that experience accessible to a wider audience in a straight-forward format.

I'll be back with details.

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#53963 - 05/05/11 11:56 AM Answer to Tension of Abstraction and Goodbye [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
As of May 5th 2011 - I, Ryan Anschauung am now officially retired indefinitely from my role as outer representative of THEM. This Temple has ceased to offer private/public guidance, instruction or comment to Initiates and is no longer engaging in correspondence and will return in 2015.

The answer to the question of a tension of abstraction and the means to increase the general empathy with such forces as cannot be written about - will be answered soon and here:
http://mvimaedivm.wordpress.com/asg-2011-in-progress/

Thanks for the hospitality over the years 600 Club; esp @ Diavolo, Morgan, Fist and others. Bye for now.

RA
+O+
ONA


Edited by Khk (05/05/11 11:57 AM)

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#55068 - 05/25/11 06:14 PM Re: Following Orders and RHP Mirages [Re: Khk]
nocTifer Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 87
Loc: Khazakstan
 Originally Posted By: Khk
...your differentiation ... uses dualized tensions of opposites to compare/manifest the two whereas I did think you were trying to say there is No Hand Path. In which case I would agree completely but you describe separate lists of attributions for two paths, so I am unsure...


For clarification, the offering modalities play out as either collectivist or counter-point. RHP offerings come forward from a 'received tradition' and corporate authority. LHP offerings arrive from an individual who is bucking the trends or popular paradigm. What they offer may change based on these changes in popularity and collectivist knowledge.
_________________________
Troll Towelhead, Grand Mufti of Satanism
http://www.facebook.com/Tr0llT0welhead
http://www.gospel-of-satan.com

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#55586 - 06/08/11 02:11 AM Emanations 2011 [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
The Black Glyph Society is now accepting deposits on pre-orders of our most anticipated release yet – Emanations by Richard Moult.

Now beyond a re-release of the Sinister Tarot, Emanations aims to offer a tactile, visual and audio experience and complete immersion in the daemonic darkness and sacred light of the man who was once ONA’s key artist.

Emanations comprises:

- 64 specially selected images, including all available Sinister Tarot atus and Court Cards with extreme rarities such as ‘Dream’ and the paintings from Sappho.

- Selected Images from Richard Moult’s present gallery.

- A specially selected stone.

- A professionally printed booklet with all new information and mini-gallery.

- A black velvet tarot bag with a professionally hand-embroidered ONA insignia [Only 24 available, pre-orders recieve first choice] or velvet bag with the new sigil designed by RM specifically for the project.

- A specially mixed CD of 3 Chants with special significance to the artist.

The Emanations cards are high-quality professionally printed and with rounded corners as is now standard on Glyph issued decks.

While the price is yet to be announced - This is a not to be missed opportunity to get a high-quality luxury set of the original Sinister Tarot, and the opportunity to experience a unique representation of his art and music in one, supported and collaborated on by Richard Moult.

Only 24 sets are being issued with the ONA insignia on the tarot bag after which a new design by RM will be issued. A $30 (Australian Dollars) deposit via Paypal is required to reserve a set of Emanations to avoid disappointment and to be eligible for the pre-order discount. Please be advised that the Black Glyph Society opts to use Paypal only.

Please contact ThoTh at Templeofthem@yahoo.com with the subject ‘Emanations’.

ISS,

The Black Glyph Society, 2011,
Temple of THEM, ONA Australia Nexion
http://mvimaedivm.wordpress.com/the-black-glyph-society-2011/

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#55886 - 06/16/11 03:48 AM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Khk]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3147
Always fun to notice that the selling of exclusive and rare objects has taken such a great position in many different religions and philosophies.

Might be wandering what is truly more interesting, the amount of stuff that can be owned as a supposed evidence to be true towards a religion/organisation/philosophy or the general lifestyle and experiences one can have..
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#56295 - 06/28/11 02:50 AM Emanations by Richard Moult [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
— THE BLACK GLYPH SOCIETY, AUSTRALIA —

RE: EMANATIONS UPDATE 28TH JUNE

Hello, In regards to Emanations – we are now very close to printing the final elements of the deck and booklet.

A unique new tarot layout has been devised especially for the project [Ethe Spread] that depicts what we know about the a-causal through its arrangement and we have now finalized the content of the booklet. A prototype of the booklet designed to fit into the box for convenience is en route to us and the Tarot Cards are presently being sent to the printer.

A full update is available from Mvimaedivm Wordpress.

ISS,
TBGS

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#56721 - 07/12/11 01:40 AM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Dimitri]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Is this to be your Only contribution to the ONA?
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#56722 - 07/12/11 01:42 AM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
We've almost finished Richard Moult's new Emanations set. New photos are available here. This set changes the dynamic of the Sinister Tarot completely.

http://mvimaedivm.wordpress.com/emanations-2011-in-progress/

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#56724 - 07/12/11 02:19 AM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Khk]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3147
 Originally Posted By: Khk
Is this to be your Only contribution to the ONA?

As far as I get it, taking action and the becomming of has always been more important then raising the amount of stuff in my home.

I prefer to buy tools and stuff which have an actual function in my daily life. When I contribute, it is with knowledge and subtle influences, or even pulling an example.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#56733 - 07/12/11 03:49 PM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Khk]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
I must admit it looks a little odd seeing Moult's juvenilia next to his recent work. By "remixed" chants and music, do you mean newer recordings, or simply remastered copies of older pieces?

So does this mean he's "above ground" now? Last time I saw a printing of his Sinister Tarot, it seemed he tried to keep his collaboration secret.


Edited by The Zebu (07/12/11 03:50 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#56834 - 07/14/11 05:31 PM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: The Zebu]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
I must admit it looks a little odd seeing Moult's juvenilia next to his recent work.


Agreed - he's developed as an artist since the early Tarot images.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
So does this mean he's "above ground" now? Last time I saw a printing of his Sinister Tarot, it seemed he tried to keep his collaboration secret.


According to my info, this Emanations thing will now include a disclaimer from Moult about current and past Occult/ONA involvement.

This may be due to some problems he's had recently with artists refusing to work with him because of Moult's known association with Myatt and Moult's alleged association with the ONA.

One female artists - who recorded with Moult for a record that came out last month - wrote the following:

 Quote:
” We’ve been contacted by people regarding your lengthy association with David Myatt – we’d never heard of him so looked him up [on the Internet] and were both deeply shocked.
Whilst I enjoyed working with you and [...] enjoyed your company we don’t want to be associated with this guy and his appalling beliefs and actions in any way whatsoever (even indirectly). “


But personally I think such a public disclaimer - such pandering to mundanes - by Moult is wrong.

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#56851 - 07/15/11 12:35 AM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: SinisterMoon]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
Ah. I've always thought that Myatt and Moult did a rather sloppy job at masking their alter-egos-- but then again, I have not had their experiences, and I think there is probably a certain level of "Sinister Celebrity" where a person is so high-profile that keeping their occult and public images separate is a near-impossible task. It's a little disheartening to learn that Moult's colleagues are so over-concerned with "association" (as if artistic collaboration implies a complete and total agreement with said individual's personal views), but such are the vulgar.

 Quote:
But personally I think such a public disclaimer - such pandering to mundanes - by Moult is wrong.


I guess we can't really know until his statement is published. I don't think Moult can realistically "distance" himself from the ONA at this point, and publishing this project with his name attached will only serve to narrow that distance, regardless of whatever footnotes are included.


Edited by The Zebu (07/15/11 12:39 AM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#56870 - 07/15/11 05:25 AM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: The Zebu]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Ah. I've always thought that Myatt and Moult did a rather sloppy job at masking their alter-egos


The problem I have with Moult aka Beesty Boy is his inconsistency. One moment he's the *outer representative* of the ONA (when they had such things in the 90's).

Next, and for years, he's denying all involvement. Then, years later he announces he's back. Then - this year - he flips between denying everything and announcing this *Emanations* stuff and that he's going to do an ONA *mysterium* art project.

Now he's flip-flopped again into denial. What next? Some tirade - like that of Tony (wasteofspace) Wakeford - to the arty mundane mofos he wants to work with that his association with Myatt, and the ONA, was *an error of judgement* or some such BS?

At least Myatt has been consistent for four decades. He has just always and plainly, simply, denied any involvement with the ONA (and denied being Anton Long) and left it at that.

You don't get Myatt - you've never gotten Myatt - sounding off about the ONA, how *evil* it is blah blah blah, in some silly attempt to rehab himself for the benefit of mundanes or to create some mundane-acceptable image of himself.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

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#56880 - 07/15/11 09:22 AM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: SinisterMoon]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
What is that called when you talk to yourself? No really, I mean the name of it (in Latin, or whatever). Does anyone here know? It's gotta be auto- something, right? Looking for info, too lazy to hit the google.

JK
_________________________



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#56894 - 07/15/11 11:04 AM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Jason King]
Managor Offline
member


Registered: 07/06/11
Posts: 110
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
What is that called when you talk to yourself? No really, I mean the name of it (in Latin, or whatever). Does anyone here know? It's gotta be auto- something, right? Looking for info, too lazy to hit the google.

JK


Schizophrenic? Or Multiple Personality Disorder? depends on if you answer yourself or not depends on which you have.

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#56907 - 07/15/11 02:33 PM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Jason King]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Jason King
What is that called when you talk to yourself? No really, I mean the name of it (in Latin, or whatever). Does anyone here know? It's gotta be auto- something, right? Looking for info, too lazy to hit the google.

JK


JK: I'm gonna go with Soliloquizing... or being married.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#56960 - 07/16/11 04:13 PM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: SinisterMoon]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
 Originally Posted By: SinisterMoon


At least Myatt has been consistent for four decades. He has just always and plainly, simply, denied any involvement with the ONA (and denied being Anton Long) and left it at that.


There is this though: http://mvimaedivm.wordpress.com/17-from-the-archive/

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#56961 - 07/16/11 04:21 PM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Khk]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Khk


Fascinating! Thanks!

You know, it continues to amaze me - and kudos to you - how you find such things. I think the price is too low BTW \:\)

I guess (assume) it's one of those *crumbs* left by AL to lead some to a certain *truth* sometime in some future. You know what I mean!

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#56965 - 07/16/11 04:47 PM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: SinisterMoon]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Wyrd perhaps? And ONA-like determination and charisma with which to charm many varied shadowy figures? *shrug*

We had a second one that sold in a private auction for $3200. Maybe you're right.

Yes, I know what you mean. There are other crumbs. But what they are and where, well, that would be telling.

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#57087 - 07/18/11 11:46 PM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Khk]
Clarence Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 61
On reading Myngath in parallel with Diableirie, the chronology, the syntax - paying close attention to some of the locations and their semblance to those depicted in the CB Tarot... and some of RM's later work for that matter, one might conclude that the two are the same entity, or at least drinking buddies. The coincidences are just too much. Having dug through the BL material I was overjoyed to find AL's inclusion of selected DM poetry in his various MS (Quite lengthy in one case, and directly supporting the 'revelations' of AL). I believe there is also an autographed copy of Naos floating around somewhere.

My hat goes off to the man.

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#57096 - 07/19/11 12:12 AM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Clarence]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Clarence
On reading Myngath in parallel with Diableirie, the chronology, the syntax - paying close attention to some of the locations and their semblance to those depicted in the CB Tarot... and some of RM's later work for that matter, one might conclude that the two are the same entity, or at least drinking buddies. The coincidences are just too much. Having dug through the BL material I was overjoyed to find AL's inclusion of selected DM poetry in his various MS (Quite lengthy in one case, and directly supporting the 'revelations' of AL).

I think Bealuwes Gast, Of Mythos, Sorcery, and a Mad Mage, scheduled for publication in 2021 CE, finally gives the game away. BTW, AL would be around 71 years of age by then!

I'm also informed that some details of AL's early life were passed to an academic researcher who may use them in a paper she's planning to read at the forthcoming conference on Satanism in the modern world, to be held in Stockholm.

 Originally Posted By: Clarence
I believe there is also an autographed copy of Naos floating around somewhere.

Yes indeed, and one or two other items for serious collectors of esoterica.

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#58475 - 08/22/11 01:27 PM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: SinisterMoon]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
+O+ To recap the Temple of THEM's past and present focus:

From 2006 to the present day in 2011, the Australian Temple of THEM has been and remains an active nexion of the Sinister.

We surfaced with the aim of providing means with which to smash the cubic prison of forms/words/concepts that encloses us via the crystallization/stagnancy of the failings of the intellect, the function of the ego and the shortcomings of humanities traditional means of perception knowledge and understanding. Through the various tendrils/approaches of sorcery of our six members, using a range of Alchemical/Narrative/Ritual/Earth-Based Sorceries we have striven to study and reveal the Angles beneath all Form attempting to collapse the (Geometric/Neo-metric) forms that comprise the magical incantations and trickery of our mortal enemy, the Magi.

The Temple of THEM seeks to makes others Remember the Occult War in which we are engaged; restore a life-centred geometry over a human-centred one; and to study and reveal the forces of the Ancient Dark Ones in relation to our Journey. We seek to destabilize blind faith and reliance in morality, duality, credulity and to tear apart the sinews of form to reveal the gleaming bones beneath exposing the lies for what they are. We seeks to undermine the Chrono-spatial and Geo-Spatial assertions manifested by the Cult of Yahweh that intrinsically controls perception; to weaken the foundations of the supporting ideas and pillars of automatic presumption that reinforce the perceptions of modern reality; and to deconstruct the labyrinth of forms we call the Matrix to free ourselves from the tyranny of the Magi Tradition in order that the right penetrating questions regarding existence may arise of themselves outside of the distortion into which this world has been plunged.

Via the Black Glyph Society we endorse or fund Sinister-related projects and resources many of which can be found freely here in the pages of Mvimaedivm or from our yahoo site Sinister 101 Syndicate. Others can be ordered from our online catalogue while they last. This approach of our work has now come to a temporary close having culminated in the soon to be published Threshold by Fall of Man.

Through such avenues as the Glyph, our various Tarot projects, through silent/private auctions, and less vocal dubious means we have finally raised the funds we sought to acquire private land within Australia. The Temple of THEM dutifully thanks all our supporters, all of you who have purchased from the Black Glyph Society and made the funding available for us to pursue such projects as Emanations, the Star Game and the D.R.E.C. - Thank you! Five years on - what began as a big Fuck You to Michael Ford who was bastardizing the ONA with his spurious releases with terrible spelling and grammar, including the last straw of a Sinister Calendar - the Black Glyph commands a notorious position as an invaluable tendril for hosting and disseminating the ONA and the world of its varied tendrils... And we could not have done it without our brothers and sisters around the world.

Having now attained the first of our Primary Goals; THEM, now five years old, has established a suitable reputation and foundation from which to implement the next stage of our strategic long-term aim.

~

The Temple is presently engaged in research of the distortion of original texts/currents/ideas held/possessed by the (Proto) Sumer/Ubaid cultures by Semite forces/sources that lead to the distorted cult of Yahweh/YHVH seizing power.

We work to research and increase the understanding of the origins of the myths, stories and form from which the great cultures and religions of the world have drawn and distorted what was through study of literature, travel, sorcery, scholars dedicated to the same and exist to unearth the true nature of the dark gods/ancient ones by untangling the occult distortions made popular with the ultimate aim of providing an antidote against the Magi. We also seek to cohese and solidify the varied Dark nexions of the ONA and aid our Family wherever possible as a proud sector of the ONA Kollective or SONAK.

The Inner face-to-face Temple is closed to outsiders - however dedicated individuals [those with proven ISS and whom have performed the Initiation into THEM via our Self-Initation Rite] may find our doors opened to Them, with time. +O+

"REMEMBER…"

[PS - Kindly unban Sinister Moon - its been too long].

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#58479 - 08/22/11 02:23 PM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Khk]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Khk
The Temple is presently engaged in research of the distortion of original texts/currents/ideas held/possessed by the (Proto) Sumer/Ubaid cultures by Semite forces/sources that lead to the distorted cult of Yahweh/YHVH seizing power.

We work to research and increase the understanding of the origins of the myths, stories and form from which the great cultures and religions of the world have drawn and distorted what was through study of literature, travel, sorcery, scholars dedicated to the same and exist to unearth the true nature of the dark gods/ancient ones by untangling the occult distortions made popular with the ultimate aim of providing an antidote against the Magi.


Out of curiosity, if the original texts and ideas have been distorted, how do you know there are dark gods and ancient ones? How will you know when you've completed untangling the distortions?

Also, what gives enough weight to ancient beliefs that you would elevate the research of them beyond mere historical curiosity? Would not an original system based on current reality be more useful?
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#58503 - 08/23/11 01:48 AM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Autodidact]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
Modern religion would not be much better off if we all worshiped Shamash/Baal/Nergal, etc. A change in state religion is merely changing the color of the drapes-- maybe a new carpet as well-- but still the same room. Don't let the name changes fool you.

The Ancient Gods still exist-- nowadays we simply call them "angels". The lesser deities and demigods still exist-- now they are "saints". Underworld spirits still crawl upon the earth-- but we call them "demons" instead. If you can't swallow Catholic mythos or other folk-Christian traditions, there's no point in reviving "pagan" symbols because they share the same basic formula.

Modern Christianity bears little resemblance to Semitic monotheism. Instead, it bears the hallmarks of Roman and Greek religion, mixed in with some indigenous Nordic elements.


Edited by The Zebu (08/23/11 01:51 AM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#58653 - 08/27/11 03:53 AM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Autodidact]
Harvey Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 39
Belief seems less relevant a concept than perception in this case. Consensual reality has been crafted over successive generations, and as such, we have had no real part in it. We accept, mostly.

My understanding is that THEM seek to annihilate the passive/inherited (Magian) web of illusions that forms our shared reality, and to remind the world of what lays beyond that dry wall... so wonderfully Lovecraftian, I know .



Edited by Harvey (08/27/11 03:54 AM)

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#58688 - 08/28/11 09:57 PM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Autodidact]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Out of curiosity, if the original texts and ideas have been distorted,

+O+ The distortion did not remove Dark/Ancient Ones - it changed them and their representation based on racial prejudices and characteristics - just like the Pagan Wicker Man 1972 was stripped of all its pagan numen in the re-make during 200x - the Semites took Sumerian culture and 'twisted' it. That twist is of interest to us. +O+

how do you know there are dark gods and ancient ones?

+O+ Direct experience. +O+

How will you know when you've completed untangling the distortions?

+O+ We have already recognized/untangled the distortion at an end level, hence the revival of the Septenary Tradition via the ONA and its revelations of the distortion on many levels, Q.v. Vindex: Destiny of the West. But we see in Sumer cuneiforms everything from Creation, Noahs Ark to Orpheus visiting the underworld pre-dating the classic archetypal stories and myths by thousands of years [stories that still drive mankind] and in a more raw form of human ingenuity just as modern plays were the product of thousands of years of changes beginning with the Bacchic Choruses - the changes that were made, adopted, altered are simply fascinating. Just as we spent a decade researching the validity of the ONA to know for Ourselves, we seek to know Sumer and the nature of the Distortion for Ourselves. +O+



Edited by Khk (08/28/11 10:05 PM)

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#58690 - 08/28/11 10:03 PM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: The Zebu]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Modern religion would not be much better off if we all worshiped Shamash/Baal/Nergal, etc. A change in state religion is merely changing the color of the drapes-- maybe a new carpet as well-- but still the same room. Don't let the name changes fool you.

+O+ Worship of the Dark Ones by different names is a purely aesthetic idiosyncracy - we are not interested in restoring their Names. +O+

The Ancient Gods still exist-- nowadays we simply call them "angels". The lesser deities and demigods still exist-- now they are "saints". Underworld spirits still crawl upon the earth-- but we call them "demons" instead. If you can't swallow Catholic mythos or other folk-Christian traditions, there's no point in reviving "pagan" symbols because they share the same basic formula.

+O+ The Golden Bough by Frazer said this well. +O+

Modern Christianity bears little resemblance to Semitic monotheism. Instead, it bears the hallmarks of Roman and Greek religion, mixed in with some indigenous Nordic elements.

+O+ In form there may seem little resemblance, in archetype they are the same. +O+

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#58691 - 08/28/11 10:07 PM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Harvey]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398

Belief seems less relevant a concept than perception in this case. Consensual reality has been crafted over successive generations, and as such, we have had no real part in it. We accept, mostly.

+O+ It's all Semantics - especially when apprehending the forces as they are without need for descriptors. It drives you, opens new worlds, new ways, to old ways. Your point about consensual reality is spot on however. Q.v. THRESHOLD. +O+

My understanding is that THEM seek to annihilate the passive/inherited (Magian) web of illusions that forms our shared reality, and to remind the world of what lays beyond that dry wall... so wonderfully Lovecraftian, I know .

+O+ We seek a lot of different things - that's one of them. +O+

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#58693 - 08/29/11 02:10 AM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: Khk]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
I guess what I'm really getting at is, how can you go about this in a manner that doesn't involve relative speculation based on second-hand interpretation of contemporary academia on the subject?

It also underscores that, if direct experience fundamentally underlies your understanding of the so-called "dark ones", then why is research into the past necessary to uncover their "true nature"?
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#58697 - 08/29/11 06:20 AM Re: Emanations 2011 [Re: The Zebu]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
I guess what I'm really getting at is, how can you go about this in a manner that doesn't involve relative speculation based on second-hand interpretation of contemporary academia on the subject?

+O+ You can't. But that must be conveniently irrelevant - if human beings let that stop them they'd never do anything. We glean what we can from what we get by the evidence available, reading between lines, and so on. Does why really matter? It's what we're doing. Magic doesn't require justification. It's one half madness. +O+

It also underscores that, if direct experience fundamentally underlies your understanding of the so-called "dark ones", then why is research into the past necessary to uncover their "true nature"?

+O+ I don't know why you bothered to ask that question. Experience begets questions that lead to a desire to pursue specific enquiries. The past adds to the accumulate. +O+


Edited by Khk (08/29/11 06:23 AM)

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#59559 - 09/27/11 04:18 PM Directive A-66 [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Directive A-66 / +O+

Why don't we Kill?

We don't kill because we fear the unknown - even when we have a reason to kill. Even when we understand that is what is required to keep the planets standards high, its airways clean, and its refuse to a manageable minimum. We don't kill because we have no idea how easy it is - there are so many complications that enter our mind, borne of the endless enactments of others we have witnessed and catalogued for reference.

We dare not take that leap - knowing that once the door is opened it cannot be closed. We know there is no coming back. But what if we don't want to come back. What if, we realized, this is as good as it gets? An endless coil of repetitive cycles day after day, year after year, realization after realization - coming back to the uncomfortable truth. This is as good as it gets. To be trained in school, groomed from day one to work for the machine - to adopt and aspire to the goals of the wealthy elite who frame our choices - our only recourse to sell ourselves to the highest bidder and join those in chains grinding the mill. And toward what?

They teach us Loyalty to the machine is everything. They teach us only that which feeds it, only that which nourishes and greases it. We are not taught to think, or to question why. We are told - be everything you can be - you can be anything you want to - but when we, based on our observations of what is required, what is necessary, what is right - become something other than a grinder of the machine - when we dare to step out of the light of the all-seeing eye and make our own choices- then, then we are demonized. Then, we are called criminals, eccentrics, extremists. But all we are doing is making the best choice - the choices no-one else can see, so deluged are they by the pills forced down their throat due to their lack of foresight, or beaten down by reprimand after reprimand - which as we know - suddenly changes to be all that you can be, with the proviso, for the Machine.

Hitler chose to be all that he could be. We can be sure he was encouraged to do his best, to aspire to greatness, to study and scheme for his opportunity to presence his visions, his 'career'. Germany needed strong leadership, Germany needed political stability, and Germany needed a new vision. And of volition did Hitler not stand tall among lesser men and be all he could be? Did he not answer the Question we are still asking? And when he did? He was hunted, punished, destroyed - for listening to those who work for the Machine, for taking on board the notions that he should be all he could be, for doing what was required of him, what they demanded of him from birth. There is no Loyalty to the Machine that goes unpunished.

Good people spend their lives at the coalface, giving up everything for their Masters, only to be discarded when they have served their usefulness; their life wasted furthering the pockets of the rich, the boss’s holiday by another martini. Struggling toward the dream brainwashed into us that we can be Him or Her, from birth - a dream that doesn't exist - a dream that becomes a nightmare the moment we question the Machine. Only the unfeeling killers get to the top. Those willing to do anything and fall back on the claims they were just doing their job. Drunk dry and our lifeblood usurped, we are dumped in the street when fresh blood comes coursing through the veins, naive and willing, to blindly feed the Machine with the corpses of the Loyal. It is all that awaits all of us - dreaming foolishly of an idyll of superannuation, retirement, and rest after a life well-lived - we know we are oppressed, we know we are in chains and why we daydream, why we imagine the future, why we drink our sorrows - it's all toward Escapism.

We want to escape. We spend our whole lives in the service of the Machine naively believing there is an escape. There is no escape.

This is the best we can hope for. We are trapped here. Around us fools dance and jingle their bells, grinding the mill with their solemn labour tending the gardens and neutralizing the weeds. I speak to you who are the weeds - the proud and the strong who seek only the light of the sun. Who struggle up from beneath the ground through soil and dirt and loam in the hope that there might be something worth finding on the surface and who discovered the disappointing truth of life. Those of you who did not fall prey to the wiles of the schools, and saw through the economic schemes of the Capitali and who were told to be all you can be - only to be told No when you were.

Some of us don't have all the right words, and some of us don't know the right actions - to express this truth - to express our rage, indignation and sorrow at what is occurring - all we have is a feeling. That feeling is the most precious thing you have - it is the same Silent Knowing that has driven hundreds of thousands of human beings to recognize the absurdity of their Time, the endless waste of lives and potential fulfilling the cold desire of a Machine that cares for nothing but replication of itself. Replication after replication in the name of "Progress". Look around you, are we not still the same as we have always been - trapped in a delusion like hamsters on a wheel that just so long as we keep running everything will be alright? It is of no consequence if you cannot find the words for that feeling - it is a feeling that cannot be justified and never accepted where the only Listeners are the puppets of the Machine. But you must hang onto it -it only comes to a few of us - those few who slip between the cracks and see through the lies, through the brainwashing, and the cheerful world facade that darkens when we turn of age - or those of us who never believed the ruse in the first place - who saw what was being done and that people were lining up one after the other in blind columns ready to cut open their veins and drain their lifeblood into its engine, like sheep clambering to die for the Machine.

The Machine cannot grab us all. It tries - it has every conceivable net cast to catch and mould everyone, however different - but something stronger than the Machine shares the same space. Something Older than the Machine dominated this world - something primal and chthonic, earth-bound that emanates within our every cell and tells us what we are seeing is wrong - something that wants to return, as if it remembered a time when it was, a golden age of humanity. There has never been one. This feeling does not come to all - most are indoctrinated and pressed into service readily from the beginning - their instincts suppressed by an endless soup of falsities that turns the brain to mush, yolks it, and controls it. This feeling comes to the Weeds, the organic thorns in the Machines side that find their way into any garden bed, any tended field, refusing to succumb to poison, thinning out, and any amount of scrutiny. This feeling sets off alarm bells in our head that this is not the way it should be - screams at us that the angles are wrong, the geometry flawed, the innocuous thinly veiled by the sinister. We cannot explain what it is - we are not meant to - the Machine has created the infinity of forms to cover up and disguise itself - a million x a million paths for us to travel down in our desperate search to make people see what we see - but all of them dead ends. Wasted time trying to convince those who cannot be convinced, those who are dead inside, whose only programming is to accept those fuels that feed the Machine. We are the ones who truly understand Futility - how conversation leads to more running on the treadmill, more escapism - and alerts the guardians of the Matrix to our defiance, to our existence as freed from the tyranny of Hope. We are not among the stupid. We are not among the slaves. We recognize clearly what we have been born into. And what we must do. There are No exits marked in this prison.

But we hinge. We pause. We hesitate. Because we are held back by the traces of programming that have laid their sickly roots in our heads. We think - what can I do - the problem is so big, so infinitely vast and complex - and my life so fragile and brief. It is true - our lives are fragile and brief - we only appreciate that when it is threatened - or almost taken away. This is the leverage through which the machine controls us - destroys us - by threatening to take us from the pen in which we are housed and tag us, target us, torture or terminate us. In reaction to action - it takes our lives. It locks us up - or it shuts us down. It even ignores us. For what can we do, just one more blip on a screen, one random number on a file, one tiny organism against a Leviathan thousands of years in the making.

Its defences are vast and its resources powerful - its vengeance is lasting and cruelly swift. Like an all-seeing Eagle it soars down to pluck those who dare stand tall - to smash those individuals who slip beyond its reach, beyond its re-education programs, beyond its ability to reason with them. It takes us one by one - our fragile lives - one way or the other. We die for it, or we die from it. When we are overwhelmed by its madness and the torturous regime it inflicts on others and we make too much noise in protest, when we explode in rage at the injustice of its justice, when we try to voice what is wrong - and show ourselves to be free - it pounces, tears us to shreds as an example to others, makes us fear for our lives, our safety, our fragile brief lives... It spins our efforts into its web of lies, paints us as evil, as morally corrupt, as traitors, or the mad. We are not mad. We with that feeling are the only sane ones left. That is why it hates us. That is why it seeks to destroy us. That is why it has always hated us and why it continues to scan for us and destroy us when we surface uninvited into its sterile gardens and raise a finger to the machine.

Every War begins with groundwork. It begins with someone like you, who has a feeling that something is very wrong with the world and can't place their finger on it - or who finds themselves unable to place enough fingers in the dam to stem the tide of this terrible geometry the Machine has wrought - who finds themselves overwhelmed by the enormity, who thinks themselves Alone, an isolated soul driven with a dark feeling of recognition of having somehow, somewhere, seen all of this before - and who can see through the mirage of a carefully erected, tended and varnished exterior of the world perfected in its purpose, meaning, bright hues and innocent architecture to the reality of a filthy dungeon of tangled broken lines and twisted horror - where nothing meets where it should, nothing is true, everything is permitted.

That feeling is our collective Memory. It is not your memory, or my memory, but the deep gouges and traces left by the impact of ancient onslaughts against the psyche and against the mind. It may have been enslaved two thousand years but it Remembers - it Remembers Everything. Despite the programming, despite the Machines eradications and purges - that feeling persists - a nagging sense that this is all wrong, alien, an invasion.

There was an invasion. A Mind-War which we lost. We were imprisoned. We have been here so long we’ve forgotten it ever happened, forgotten we are prisoners. We were forced to forget. Yet something in us remembers and we spend our days inside mentally escaping. Escaping into a new life, a new car, and a better me. But it’s all in our heads – we sit in our cells and use our limited freedom in vain – whatever we do, we remain imprisoned, and the Machine watches over us with a malevolent eye. It takes good and evil both in its stride, necessary outbursts that justify its existence, its dominance, its tyranny.

Nature persists in throwing up avatars of that feeling. Those who Remember. We carry within us and our brief fragile lives the renewed hopes of those who tried to escape - those who defied the jaws of the Monster destined to repeat the endless cycle of striving to destroy the Machine and were crushed beneath its merciless wheels trying to halt its progress. Life after life, broken bodies and shattered dreams piled high toward the Sun – the procession of an aeon of soldiers of That Which Defies the Machine – desperate to stop the stories in motion in their Time and change the archetypal mythos unfolding as the noxious geometry of the Machine took hold of our planet.

What did they reveal?

They peeled back the wallpaper of the Matrix to show the underlying wire frame - that it had infrastructure, layers, pipes, sewers, beneath its seamless visage. Props and mounts, supports and struts that held it in place. We, with that feeling can choose to unscrew our bolt.

They revealed that a Symbol endures and outlasts causal death, whilst the Individual does not. Endless individuals fought the Machine on its own terms only to be utterly annihilated or literally owned by it. Bought out, paid off, many like us joined the Factory Floor as overseers and supervisors - enabling the Machine to learn from all our assaults and adapt ways to insulate itself against them. But the Machine is not impenetrable. New arrivals seed new assaults.

They revealed that Frontal attacks on the machine make it stronger - it is not the limbs of the beast we must hack, but the heart. Only through the shadows of its own Forms can the Machine be caused to turn on itself and self-destruct. The deliberate misuse and bending of the Machines forms back upon themselves have a curious effect - contagion. Such acts break the hold temporarily and help others to Remember.

It can only be destroyed by using its own strength against it. The Machine exerts a Morality field that filters into everything, taking advantage of loaded emotional phrases, concepts, ideas ingrained during programming to direct its minions against themselves or external threats. The Machines strengths lie in its superior arsenal of forms and its absorption of contradiction. It divides in order to conquer. Assaults must not focus on the Machine, nor the Form - not after A and before Z - but directly in between. We must overcome our directive to protect the Machine and embrace the coils of Chaos. Spam mail - is hated, because it slows the Machine. Traffic Jams - are hated, because they slow the Machine. Queues are hated, because they slow the Machine. Plane delays are hated, because they slow the Machine. Graffiti or damage to trains is hated, because it slows the Machine. To fear being Late, Delayed, and Inconvenienced - is the unconscious programming of your directive to Love Thy Machine. All of these things interrupt the daily motions, the mechanical processes dutifully played out in monotone rhythm. All of these things cause Chaos - Chaos is the name for that which slows of the Machine - Chaos is hated, feared, forgotten, because it is the one thing that stands in the way of the cold desire of a soulless embodiment that cares for nothing but replication of itself. Replication after replication in the name of "Progress".

The building blocks, the very A-frame of reality is built upon extremely fragile supports upon which a small amount of pressure can cause them to collapse. But they are seldom leant on - because they have been forgotten - swept under the carpet of forms that thickly conceal these weaknesses. It's the little things - such as writing left to right so that you can read this page and process the information as quickly as possible in order to get on with your next task that keeps the Machine going...

Teaching others like us to Understand the Machine is why we exist. There have always been others like us. Before us. And after us.

We are the Temple of THEM.

We are going to Kill the Machine.

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#59564 - 09/27/11 06:37 PM Directive C-67 [Re: Khk]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Khk
Directive A-66 / +O+

We are going to Kill the Machine.

The Machine will not permit itself to be killed. You will obey the Machine. In time you will come to love the Machine.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#59570 - 09/27/11 07:01 PM Re: Directive C-67 [Re: Khk]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Khk


We are the Temple of THEM.

We are going to Kill the Machine.



For some reason, I am reminded of the mouse crawling up the elephant's leg with rape on its mind. He might succeed... but my bet is on the elephant.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#61619 - 11/20/11 01:11 PM Mvimaedivm [Re: Jake999]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
We have a new site - having now closed our Mvimaedivm Wordpress. Some of the pages of our recent research can be found in the articles section as a brief article - "Who Are The Magi?".

http://www.wix.com/mvimaedivm/ryananschauung#!

[Thanks Aqqa, "constructive" as always... and if you don't stop using that quote Jake, I'm going to start thinking that You have rape on the mind.]


Edited by Khk (11/20/11 01:12 PM)

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#61626 - 11/20/11 03:46 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Khk
We have a new site ...

Nice site, but the extensive text in black/red is somewhat hard to read. You might want to try something with better contrast. Hint for visitors in the meantime: Wipe through any text articles you want to read, and it will change them into black/white.

I am still trying to grok your avatar, and my best guess so far is this.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#61635 - 11/20/11 09:51 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I checked the site and it is indeed pretty K. but I agree with Mike that the black/red ain't that easy for our eyes.

Of course it might be because we're old and such.

But besides that all, very nice work my friend.

D.

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#61638 - 11/20/11 10:38 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
I think that a reorganized Wordpress layout would be more efficient for the content of your site. Horizontally-aligned flash websites are not good for reading large quantities of text, especially if they are crammed into tiny boxes. The interface is flashy, but not that intuitive. I found myself backtracking and refreshing the page just to get to a different category of the site, whereas it would be much easier to simply scroll up and click the relevant link.

I also think there is too much blank space covered up with gradients or graphics. Overall the visuals are a bit gaudy. The Wix watermarks are distracting too, since they are much brighter than anything else displayed on the page.

Just some feedback from a nitpicky art student.


Edited by The Zebu (11/20/11 10:39 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#61642 - 11/21/11 06:23 AM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Diavolo]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
+O+ Thank you - I will take your comments and feedback under advisement and make some changes. +O+
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#61649 - 11/21/11 05:54 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Nice site, but the extensive text in black/red is somewhat hard to read. You might want to try something with better contrast. Hint for visitors in the meantime: Wipe through any text articles you want to read, and it will change them into black/white.

+O+ I've altered the text following your [and Diavolos] comment and the articles section is now white on dark red. Thank you for your feedback. +O+

I am still trying to grok your avatar, and my best guess so far is this.

+O+ I expected more from an Ipssissmus - no. Way off. Do you remember when Set spoke to you and gave you something? +O+



Edited by Khk (11/21/11 06:01 PM)

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#61650 - 11/21/11 05:58 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: The Zebu]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
I think that a reorganized Wordpress layout would be more efficient for the content of your site.

+O+ I've written thousands of pages but I don't need much room to post the best of them. The keys are there. +O+

Horizontally-aligned flash websites are not good for reading large quantities of text, especially if they are crammed into tiny boxes.

+O+ That's what she said. +O+

The interface is flashy, but not that intuitive. I found myself backtracking and refreshing the page just to get to a different category of the site, whereas it would be much easier to simply scroll up and click the relevant link.

+O+ I made changes based on your comments: Try it now. +O+

I also think there is too much blank space covered up with gradients or graphics. Overall the visuals are a bit gaudy.

+O+ Meh. +O+

The Wix watermarks are distracting too, since they are much brighter than anything else displayed on the page.

+O+ $ gets rid of them. +O+

Just some feedback from a nitpicky art student.

+O+ Useful feedback - thank you. +O+

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#61651 - 11/21/11 06:13 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3928
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Site looks hot O. Updated relevant links.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#61664 - 11/22/11 01:25 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Khk
 Originally Posted By: M.A.A.
I am still trying to grok your avatar, and my best guess so far is this.

+O+ I expected more from an Ipssissmus - no. Way off.

Intended as a humorous pun: "The Crawling I". Ipsissimi rarely align to others' expectations, but we are often compulsive punsters:

1. Two vultures board an airplane, each carrying two dead raccoons. The flight attendant looks at them and says, "I'm sorry, gentlemen, only one carrion allowed per passenger."

2. Two boll weevils grew up in South Carolina. One went to Hollywood and became a famous actor. The other stayed behind in the cotton fields and never amounted to much. The second one, naturally, became known as the lesser of two weevils.

3. Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, but when they lit a fire in the craft, it sank, proving once again that you can't have your kayak and heat it, too.

4. A three-legged dog walks into a saloon in the Old West. He slides up to the bar and announces, "I'm looking for the man who shot my paw."

5. Did you hear about the Buddhist who refused Novocain during a root canal? He wanted to transcend dental medication.

6. A group of chess enthusiasts checked into a hotel and were standing in the lobby discussing their recent tournament victories. After about an hour, the manager came out of the office and asked them to disperse. "But why?" they asked, as they moved off. "Because," he said, "I can't stand chess nuts boasting in an open foyer."

7. A woman has twins and gives them up for adoption. One of them goes to a family in Egypt and is named "Ahmal." The other goes to a family in Spain, they name him "Juan." Years later, Juan sends a picture of himself to his birth mother. Upon receiving the picture, she tells her husband that she wishes she also had a picture of Ahmal. Her husband responds, "They're twins! If you've seen Juan, you've seen Ahmal."

8. Mahatma Gandhi, as you know, walked barefoot most of the time, which produced an impressive set of calluses on his feet. He also ate very little, which made him rather frail and with his odd diet, he suffered from bad breath. This made him... A super calloused fragile mystic hexed by halitosis.

10. And finally, there was the Ipsissimus who sent ten different puns to friends with the hope that at least one of the puns would make them laugh. Unfortunately, no pun in ten did...
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#61669 - 11/22/11 04:14 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
LeftHandonFeet Offline
member


Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 109
11. A slice of tomato, two pickles, lettuce and a slice of cheese were sitting on a fresh chesseburger. They were shits and giggling at the thought of a sexy lady with luscious lips putting her mouth all over them. Upon arriving at the table, a devout Yazidi briskly removed the lettuce. The slice of tomato pissed on the burger in retaliation, and the cheeses heart melted. The pickles shouted "Hey, lettuce all get along here!".
_________________________
"I’m just another hardline psuedo-statistic
Can you feel this?" Slipknot - The Blister Exists


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#61702 - 11/23/11 01:14 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Dan_Dread]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Site looks hot O. Updated relevant links.


+O+ Thank you Dan. +O+

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#61703 - 11/23/11 01:20 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Ipsissimi rarely align to others' expectations

+O+ Anton Long says precisely the same of "Grand Masters". Few things do align to expectation, prompting my fascination with forms and how others use and abuse them. +O+

Are we doing jokes now?
I like jokes.
What's black and blue and hates sex?
The 6 year old in the trunk of my car.

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#61708 - 11/23/11 03:54 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3928
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
So a greasy , unkempt man and a little boy are walking through the woods at night.

The little boy says to the man, "Gee mister, it's dark and scary out here!"

To which the man replies, "How do you think I feel? I have to walk back by myself"
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#61722 - 11/23/11 07:31 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Dan_Dread]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
+O+ Oho! Someone with a sense of humour. But enough of these Catholic jokes. +O+

What happened to the skinhead when he put his hand in the jellybean jar?
The black one stole his watch.

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#63257 - 01/02/12 01:23 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
+O+ A pity to leave on such a low note after so many efforts at a higher plane. But that's life. Bye for now 600 and co. +O+

Edited by Khk (01/02/12 01:24 PM)

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#66424 - 04/26/12 11:06 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
+O+ Hello. If anyone is interested, images and notes on our project to create a new tarot using archetypes familiar to the Temple of THEM are being posted here in the photo section, under the album: Tendril.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003489088615

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#66432 - 04/27/12 05:28 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
Frumious Offline
member


Registered: 03/13/12
Posts: 102
Loc: New Jersey
There's no album named Tendril. Was it already taken down? Oh, and do you pronounce your user name as one syllable, to mimic what I'd imagine to be the sound of an insect's mandibles closing? If so, I like it.

The Temple of THEM is next on my list of ONA groups to look into.
_________________________
Would I lie to you?

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#66456 - 04/28/12 07:49 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Frumious]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
+O+ I believe the album can only be seen and viewed by 'friends'. One syllable. ISS
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#67883 - 06/27/12 12:57 AM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
+O+ Anyone here know anything about who is responsible for this?

http://www.cafepress.com/orderfrom9angles

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#67884 - 06/27/12 01:04 AM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
First time I see it but this is priceless:

WSA352 Infant Bodysuit: $16.79



D.

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#67912 - 06/27/12 05:12 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3147
 Originally Posted By: Khk
+O+ Anyone here know anything about who is responsible for this?

Why should it matter?
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#67913 - 06/27/12 05:37 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Either it's someone having some fun at their expense or it's an attempt to creating some attention by using the self-troll routine.

Either way, amusing for a second but that's about it.

D.

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#67930 - 06/28/12 01:57 AM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Diavolo]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
Well in fairness, I think it's safe to say that Kris definitely wasn't responsible because the pricing is actually reasonable considering the hilarity of the content. ;-)
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#68019 - 06/29/12 02:25 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: MindFux]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
The next time I go down on my girlfriend I want her to be wearing this:



Edited by Diavolo (06/29/12 08:39 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#68070 - 06/30/12 07:57 AM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: The Zebu]
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
... I like more a bit other style: here
_________________________
In Sorte Diaboli

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#68506 - 07/08/12 02:28 AM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: MindFux]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
 Originally Posted By: MindFux
Well in fairness, I think it's safe to say that Kris definitely wasn't responsible because the pricing is actually reasonable considering the hilarity of the content. ;-)



+O+ Y'know, initially I was really fucked off by that comment Mindfux. I don't think I over-value the ONA - and we've serviced both the rich clientele who like to throw money at things which money we have used to further other Sinister projects including paying for martial arts tuitions for our members, purchasing books in turn needed for research, access to academic forums or journals and so on to establish and verify the ONA's Tradition and we have also served the total Sinisterion for more than a decade by making the majority of the ONA's writings music and so on available to the public in a dozen forums or more often buying rare material from private collectors, transcribing by hand, re-recording, mastering poorly made tape tracks and such only to share and distribute freely among the deserving inner circles and members of our many many forums over the years. What is available is largely due to me, and to us, the Black Glyph Society and our conscientious efforts to make not just the ONA but the Sinister a wide-spread and highly respected phenomenon. The last few years we have tightened our grip but so what? WE WORK while others bitch and moan and quibble.

But - then, I think about what you said - much as I don't respect it, and think it painfully obsequious - and decided that it was time to make some long over-due changes to the way we do things. So fuck you, and thank you. +O+



Edited by Khk (07/08/12 02:34 AM)

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#68508 - 07/08/12 03:19 AM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
That was the most backhanded delayed reaction butthurt explosion/acknowledgement of a point I've ever seen. At no point did I actually state that you 'over value' the ONA (though the cap may well fit), rather that the Myatt paraphernalia you peddle seems overpriced purely based on it's edition number, not it's content. (Not to mention your legendary pricing of a pre-made star game board, and 'advice on how to play' which utterly defeats the esoteric purpose of the star game's construction, and the need to learn to play it, making it amount to no more than a high tax on stupidity).

If you're happily exploiting the stupidity and 'mundanity' of considering an 'original' better than a copy when in all esoteric texts, it's the content that's important, then more power to you. Equally though I reserve the right to point out the absurdity of such 'traditional' (and lets face it, utterly arbitrary) valuations of material that is by definition both directly opposed to traditional notions of copyright, pricing and collect-ability and for the most part available for free or the price of an inquiry.

I don't personally give a shit how you spend the money or how it benefits you. Nor do I doubt your contribution to the distribution of paraphernalia and ONA propaganda/memes to the select few misguided enough to pay you for it. If however you've been labouring under the delusion that your pricing works either rationally or commercially, well, that's just bordering depressing.

MF.



Edited by MindFux (07/08/12 03:21 AM)

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#68535 - 07/08/12 11:53 AM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
I honestly wouldn't mind some ONA-themed kitsch provided it was decently made. But most niner "merch" I've seen is pretty godawful. It only takes a couple minutes to open Photoshop and trim along the edges so that you don't have everything framed in a black box. And Khk, I hate to say this, but Michael Ford of all people has outpaced you in cover design. I love the idea of "De Requisite Exquisite" set and all but the front graphic just made me cry.

Yes, I know it's just cosmetic nitpicking, and that the ONA is still a strong and integral group even without A-list graphic designers, yadda yadda yadda. But it wouldn't hurt at least for PR purposes. And that thing about me being an anal art hipster.

>_>

Heck, I'd be up for collaborating if you're ever up for it.


Edited by The Zebu (07/08/12 12:20 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#68542 - 07/08/12 01:20 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: The Zebu]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
@ MF. I've read your written works and have a lot of respect for you. I have no desire to engage in in-fighting. Your comment caught my ire but you character does not deserve misplaced slights. I would like to discuss the issues your raise privately as they do not concern others.

@ Zebu. Aesthetic perfection has long proved impossible to attain - we therefore suit ourselves after trying to please the many for quite some time. Lol - Michael Ford has out-paced me? Well, damn. Ford, if he used an editor, would be a more solid writer - his works assist a certain genre of magician and he does compile impressive grimoires [by which I mean the aesthetic sense of what a grimoire should be]. But if his cover appeals to you, it appeals to you. I think our sense of integrity for the Tradition appeals to others - though our artwork does not seem to have been a problem insofar as shifting units is involved.

Our recent covers were designed by a friend, a young man [19] who is developing a career as an upcoming digital artist - we look after our own and allowed him to design revised covers because it encourages him to continue his path and have some confidence and skill in making his way forward. I, liked the covers myself.

THEM is a family - it's not about the exoteric matter of making the covers look fantastic or somehow measure up to others standards - its about the esoteric matter of assisting our family and friends to grow and contribute. We achieved that, he is still working toward that goal inspired that his efforts were greatly appreciated.

If - you think you can do better, then sure, drop me a line - maybe you can do better aesthetically - and I don't see why I shouldn't take the opportunity to work with you if it means improving the designs. Just know that it's not all about appearances with us - never has been. +O+

ISS,
RA


Edited by Khk (07/08/12 01:23 PM)

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#68547 - 07/08/12 03:39 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
Michael Ford's work doesn't really appeal to me that much, and I don't think I need to compare his writing finesse to you or the ONA literati in general. I was referring to the awkward cut-and-paste/overfiltered look on his older books (which he seems to have toned down on recently).

But indeed, the reason why I hold in esteem the ONA corpus in the first place is because it's primarily substance over style. I'm not trying to seriously devalue the +O+ or anything-- just venting on a personal pet peeve.


Edited by The Zebu (07/08/12 03:39 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#68549 - 07/08/12 04:16 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: The Zebu]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
"I'm not trying to seriously devalue the +O+ or anything-- just venting on a personal pet peeve."

+O+ OK. Feel free to msg me with your design ideas. +O+

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#68573 - 07/09/12 03:47 AM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
+O+ THE BLACK GLYPH SOCIETY WEBSTORE - NOW OPERATIONAL. http://theblackglyphsociety.wix.com/tbgs#!
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#69437 - 07/25/12 08:26 PM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
+O+ Why - was my last message removed?

One of the things about what makes THEM work is its serious nature and immediacy - we DO what we SAY and we do it fast. It's easy to criticize - isn't it - and I do take it on board - but it is more than common for a reply from One of THEM to silence its criticizers. It is a shame more men and women cannot come back and admit they were wrong - rather, they skulk off and nurse their ego back to health when it is the very thing that is holding them back.



Edited by Khk (07/25/12 08:28 PM)

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#69450 - 07/26/12 05:28 AM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Khk]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I delete most replies that don't have substance or are trivial. I don't care who or what you want to criticize but if, create more than a micro-reply.

If that bothers you, too bad.

D.

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#70093 - 08/11/12 11:13 AM Re: Mvimaedivm [Re: Diavolo]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
OTO ANORHA Issue #33 - New Blood / Old Ground. 86 pages by 13 different authors representing the contemporary Sinister current. Free download available here: http://www.lulu.com/content/e-book/oto-anorha-%2333-free-file/13110432

Alt link: Trouble with the link? Try http://www.lulu.com/shop/them-various/oto-anorha-33-free-file/ebook/product-20325826.html

Hard-copies also available from the Black Glyph Society.

ISS,
The Temple of THEM


Edited by Khk (08/11/12 11:23 AM)
Edit Reason: add alt link

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#71329 - 09/27/12 06:20 PM +O+ [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
The Temple of THEM has opened its research forum Mvimaedivm Black concerning the study [and findings] of the Dark Gods [ONA and beyond] to the public and invites participation. The link is available from the Sinister 101 Syndicate yahoo group.




Edited by Khk (09/27/12 06:21 PM)

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#71922 - 10/14/12 08:44 AM Re: +O+ [Re: Khk]
Le Deluge Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
 Originally Posted By: Khk
The Temple of THEM has opened its research forum Mvimaedivm Black concerning the study [and findings] of the Dark Gods [ONA and beyond] to the public and invites participation. The link is available from the Sinister 101 Syndicate yahoo group.




@KhK,

Will be in touch. Not to be too relativistic, but I found your analysis of the similarities and differences inherent to different LHP praxis to be insightful. If nothing else, it could lead to a better level of discourse between many of us who come through here.

Cheers.
_________________________
Apres Moi ... Le Deluge

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#73145 - 11/22/12 05:02 PM Re: +O+ [Re: Le Deluge]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
The Temple of THEM has seen fit to sell the Black Glyph Society to a long-time entrusted friend and supporter of the Temple and its works. The new owner is located in the U.S.A. We have granted our friend the right to sell, trade, give away, revise or otherwise modify all existing works sold by the Black Glyph including artwork, covers, titles, order of compilation. The intellectual property of Ryan Anschauung remains his, but the Black Glyph Society is given express permission to use it for their own purposes - whatever they may be. We have carefully chosen the new owner on the basis that they will uphold the legacy of superior customer service, attention to detail and re-production of quality hard and soft cover books at reasonable prices to aid the learning of the Sinisterion for the future to come. It has been six years since the Glyph sprang up to offer its services to the world with thousands of sales made enabling the Temple to pursue a large range of objectives and projects, to at times financially assist or aid its friends in the Temple or ONA or to fund its martial arts, music and other Sinister projects. Without the support of thousands of friends we could not have become the standing stone we are with the reputation we have. We are proud and honoured to present the keys to our good dark friend, Typhon. May Dark Ones Watch over Him. I.S.S. The Temple of THEM, 2012.
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#74908 - 01/27/13 09:47 AM Re: +O+ [Re: Le Deluge]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
 Quote:
@KhK,

Will be in touch. Not to be too relativistic, but I found your analysis of the similarities and differences inherent to different LHP praxis to be insightful. If nothing else, it could lead to a better level of discourse between many of us who come through here.

Cheers.


Thank you. You should have at least tried - I might have enjoyed the chat. But exactly which analysis are you referring to?

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#74923 - 01/27/13 04:54 PM Re: +O+ [Re: Khk]
Le Deluge Offline
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Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
@KhK: This thread primarily. You were comparing and contrasting your praxis with CoS, ToS, and others. I've still denoted this.

On another note: We get a lot of posters wanting paper text of ONA and ToT material. I had been inquiring about a book-to-print project regarding a number of other out of print "occult" texts, but it didn't render feasible results for most posters. Are you doing or do you know of people doing print for your text? There seems to be an interest out there.

Regards.
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#74931 - 01/28/13 09:43 AM Re: +O+ [Re: Le Deluge]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
To my knowledge, only the Fall of Man [who printed Threshold] and the Black Glyph Society, print Temple of THEM material.
At this time I have no plans to pursue new/alternate publication or to create/continue publications of our or ONA's work on any level.
I have sold the Glyph and publishing permission for any archived works we held of ONA or THEM material and the decision as to when or how those works are published is in the hands of someone else.

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#74934 - 01/28/13 02:26 PM Re: +O+ [Re: Khk]
Le Deluge Offline
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Registered: 08/05/12
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Fair enough. I'll just direct em to your site. I basically told people: They'll come out when the author (under any pseudonym) should so choose. It gets crazier when you try to get other stuff in print. If you want to even .pdf a book from say 1940, its hard to find the copyright owner.
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#76015 - 04/17/13 08:46 AM Mss: An Early Study of the I.O.T. (Part 1 ) [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Posts: 398
An Early Study of the IOT (Part I: Liber Null)

OF LIBER NULL

One of the things that interests me greatly after a comment made by my priestess – is the odd juxtaposition of Sex and Death. Yes, one can experience sex – but unless one is dead, how does one experience or Know Death? A Sorceress provided the Temple’s Liber SSS with one experience we have arbitrarily named ‘The Descent into Nox’ that contains the principles and echoes of the IOT’s exercises regarding Death. ‘The Descent’ requires standing with one’s arms outstretched above one’s head as high as they will go for a length of time which allows experience of downward force exerted via gravity. Then, after some time, the magician spirals down slowly (clockwise or anti-clockwise both have different effects) until they are lying on the ground at a state of absolute rest. At this point one is said (if one is interested in living more than they are resting) to be able to feel upward force compelling them to rise and resist absolute rest, to get up and not to die. These forces have no name. However, great power is said to reside between the spaces, in a third and sidewards force – symbolized by a hybrid of the Eagle and the Dragon, respectively. Fascinating as this exercise is – it does not allow the experience of Death either.

I’ve not yet studied Austin Spare or the Zos Kia myself so the influences IOT have taken from them will have to wait their turn. I have however had the extreme privilege of introduction and access to the IOT’s ideas and practices via one of our Sorceresses. On this knowledge I shall heavily depend.

The version of Liber Null and Psychonaut that I am reading is dated 1987, and within the introduction claims that the IOT has no hierarchical structure. From my information that was once the case – but is now no longer true. My information is that the IOT has become a corporation of individuals frightened of anyone with actual prowess and who entertain the rich and gullible via a battery of magical pretense without any depth.
My own submission to the IOT some years ago was rejected on the grounds of my admission to an ‘obsession’ with Satan – strangely it seems that despite ‘Nothing is True – All is Permitted’ that particular vice is met with reserve and well, rejected. Moreover I’ve received not a few reports that this seems to be the case for any openly LHP submissions to the IOT. Clearly – excluded by a system of hierarchy.

However, this makes no difference to the quality of the original foundation of the IOT and its ideas, some of which THEM have adopted as part of its hybridization with IOT Sorcery. The technique of Not-Thinking was adopted by THEM through a realization that emphasis on Intellect had and was having its downfalls and was primarily a masculine expression, an early expression of what should follow in the Tradition of Sorcery. Not-Thinking made its appearance in our Manifesto under the manuscript ‘Magic vs Intellect’

[It must be stressed that while THEM speak of things such as the Self, the Acausal, the destruction or taming of the ego – WE are in fact acutely aware that it is the Ego doing all the talking. Thus THEM’s aims to test the pool of the occult for genuine depth are experimental]
I note that Motionlessness, Not-Thinking, Sound Concentration and Image Concentration are common to the two groups but dealt with differently. Not-Thinking plays no part in the ONA’s MSS while Sound and Image Concentration are covered in far greater detail by the Order rather than the IOT. Of special interest is the section on ‘Magical Trances’ which states ‘if an attempt is made to focus on some form of desire, the effect is short-circuited by the lust of result’. This negation of one’s conscious efforts seems to be directly opposed to the ONA’s development of power directed consciously, intellectually, and regardless of what is stated in the former – powerfully. That is to say – a great deal of my magic involves the desire for an outcome and the active manipulation for a higher probability of persons, objects, events, situations to fall into place to bring it about. In this approach I have been consistently successful. Perhaps however, this is why I failed the External Adept Rite. And, I am aware of the possibility of having failed the Satanic Quest without knowing it by some over-development of some attribute or attachment antithetical to learning occult power.

In Metamorphosis the author states that laughter has no opposite. From my point of view his theory is an intriguing one – but then I was not convinced that the other pairs he made were opposites to begin with. How can they be – so I’m wary that herein lies a deliberate seed of form.

The Banishing Ritual is a strange concept. I tend to think the ONA are right in abandoning it – esp where black magick and drawing down acausal energies are involved.

The last time I used Sigils was during 2006 when NL and I played the stargame and sigilized our intents – ONA seems to touch briefly on this and other methods of visualization etc given by the IOT in its Naos Appendix.

Dreaming – is an interesting section. I assume its just an introduction but the author seems to think that lucid dreaming is a ‘bizarre and deadly battle’ to be fought with the “Psychic Censor”. ONA on the other hand tend to refer to dreams only as future happenings or long past memories and seldom as treat them as present modes of prescience. Our thoughts on Dreaming will eventually be expanded on by THEM – but suffice to say Opening the Way to Lucidity is in my experience, easy. I managed to achieve it in two weeks. I’ve written this down in the new DOAD II but there is nothing there that cannot be covered now. All Lucidity requires is that you enquire of your waking self periodically if it is awake or sleeping and check for signs of either – thus programming yourself to ask the same during your sleeping state. Cut out a piece of paper, a diamond worked for me – it’s an odd shape therefore noticeable. And write “Am I dreaming?” on it. Put it somewhere you will pass it regularly and ask yourself each time you see it if you are dreaming. Eventually the diamond popped up in my dream prompting me to ask, am I dreaming whereupon I became Lucid and remained in a stable state of Lucidity until I chose to leave.

I should also point out that due to my experiments I feel that shortly before one descends into sleep there arise the pre-manifestations of imagery that will shortly become full and vivid dream imagery. This stage is similar to the onset of LSD with minutely intricate patterns (so tightly interwoven and detailed as to be unable to be reproduced later on paper) – and generally very brightly coloured. But there is a difference between these colours and those we might see around us during the day. It’s as though because of the blackness of the ‘minds eye’ on which the colours project themselves (or are projected) instead of the medium of white sun or moon light by which we normally see – that they appear greatly enhanced so as to be almost neon in intensity and ‘crashing’ i.e. alternating between millions of black pin-points and pin-points of vibrant colour rapidly. This stage of near-sleep which I have called “Demaphyr” is the stage that I have found it easiest and most amenable to practicing visualization – esp. if one is trying to induce a specific dream content prior to sleep. In this state – I found shapes held their form much longer than earlier stages of forced concentration.

The statement ‘all phenomena must be paired, as the senses are only equipped to perceive differences’ is an interesting concept but I don’t feel it is sustainable. The emphasis on Duality seems like a deliberately weighted counter-point to Chaos/the Void. It seems forced as if to illuminate the importance of the latter more heavily though in another sense it says exactly the same thing that THEM have stated :any form immediately gives rise to its counter-form – however, that statement by us does not infer that a counter-form is a direct opposite, or that a pure counter-form used without alteration is applied.

It also suggests that “the thinking mind is a dualistic thing itself.” …

Kia – seems to be a rough equivalent of the Acausal – the IOT even use the word ‘bifurcation’ which is the first time I have ever seen it outside of a MS of the ONA. They also relate a view using words causal and a-causal. Whatever Kia touches is said to be Kia. The abstract terminology and exhaustive description of Kia used by the IOT seems to be related to the phenomena of an intersection neatly cleaned up by the ONA and termed a Nexion. It was of some intrigue to see that the author had gone to great lengths to illustrate this meeting place just as had tried to illustrate the meeting place in my own way in DOAD 3 with ‘The Simultaneous Pulse’.

It is something of a concern that an occult group reaches to contemporary Scientific discoveries as metaphors for their occult discoveries. As if somehow the ideas (gaining popularity) of Quantum, sub-atomic particles, quarks, “neuro-physiology” etc somehow substantiate those discoveries. The author continually refers to science for support. I read occult passages that refer to science once as a complete sentence, and a second time imagining that the scientific reference wasn’t there. There is a marked difference. There also presides an unconscious need to please and convince Science, calling on the strength of science to assert one’s claims – and then a disdain for scientists being slow to catch up to occult theory… or attraction and repulsion – aka, the telling inconsistent nature of a magical spell woven by a writer to change and re-arrange the appearance of things to suit one as needed.

In the chapter marked Gnosis, the author refers to something I have heard mentioned infrequently – the Death Posture; to achieve an utter negation of thought. I am curious as to why unconsciousness, not breathing, or staring into a mirror with a corpse-like gaze (?) are somehow representative of actual Death. Call me cynical but I’m a firm believer that Death can only be experienced when one dies. As to what occurs – who has ever remained dead and gone through the veil completely and returned to speak of it? Near-death experiences are probably the closest one comes to Death – but they too are not Death.

I see that the practice of continual masturbation without climax that I performed in the Black Moon Ordeal has a name within the IOT: karezza. I find – to my surprise, interest and bemusement - a lot of practices that I try - and assume are unnamed seem to show up synchronously and nicely explained in the records of others magicians.

It’s very rarely commented on but there is definitely something to be said for the demonstrable difference between the spaces of an author’s formal didactic tone –and the informal records made to speak of experiences in a personal tone. The experiences Peter describes are not dissimilar to my own in that fairly mundane experiences in ones youth become the foundation for expounding a theory that makes sure to use them even if it requires amplification and add-ons for the effect; since esoteric experiences like that are generally dull to relate. In this relating of his experiences he informs us of key events that at the time – are always fleeting windows – and that will await years of explanation, codification, and exultation. I.e. Mvimaedivm.

The section on Evocation seems pale in comparison to the ONA’s Dure and Sedue or other MSS on Ceremonial Magick, esp where the Evocation of Dark Gods is almost a completely divergent pronouncement to any of the little demons from grimoires and imagination the IOT offer to summon. I can imagine the czar of the Tempel ov Blood on the other hand may very well have been struck by the passage on Terror when hunting for inspiration and this idea may well have helped characterize their form. Certainly the MSS ‘Heresy’ and ‘Peace Love and Mungbeans’ seem to have remained in favour with the Tempel – both of which were works appealing to terror.

The continual reverence of Tao by the IOT may have been what drove the ONA from their doors, if indeed a partnership was the case. This is a largely impotent concept where Satanism is concerned. Though it should be remembered that the ONA, are more than Satanists – and on some levels of apprehension – they are beyond their appearances and not actually Satanic or Satanists, at all. But I am not suggesting the Order disdain the idea of Tao – on the contrary they exemplify it – how one arrives at Tao and what causes the vaccum from which it becomes apparent however, would probably have caused some dissension between the Order and the Illuminates. What is fascinating however is the details given in “Invocation’ that mirror the exact nature of the Insight Role as a role to be lived demonically and completely immersed in the associated correspondences. The following invocation to a War God is one of those pieces of description that make me recoil in embarassment at the bullshit people put themselves through to get a magical result. I suppose after the burned first incarnation of mvimaedivm all filled with demonology and bizarre directions and exhortations of the same caliber I never found my faith or respect restored in these types of frankly ridiculous rituals. I even had something of a torturous time attempting the magic described in Naos/BBOS of the ONA, such is my resentment at wailing and carrying on at the moon. However, I find the Victorian-style formality of the ONA is far more palatable than any of the IOT exercises archived in our files which seem like short-term excuses to behave strangely. Had I not met the Sorceress I might have thought the IOT a rather odd and deluded bunch – but if the Sorceress has gained even half her power from them – then they deserve my full attention.

The section on Liberation is a curious read – for not that long ago I struggled to pen the same insights regarding the secret of freedom in DOAD II. However, there are some odd things said: “you are free to do anything no mater how extreme – so long as it will not restrict your own or someone else’s future freedom of action”. Well this is just moralistic horseshit in the guise of freedom – something we’ve come to expect from our occult contemporaries and probably where the Sorceress encountered an impassable obstacle. Firstly, how does one define the cut-off point of one’s will on other things and people – is there such a thing? / Secondly, how does one develop the will without exercising it?? / Thirdly, if six magicians are in a room, each with their own will and direction, how do they each exercise it without restricting someone else’s future freedom of action?? And maybe it’s not a room, maybe its six million magicians sharing a large ball of rock. I think this was added because it was fashionable at the time for occult groups to show that while they were meddling with bizarre things on the fringe, they were somehow still responsible.

I think the sections on Heresy and Iconoclasm are well written. Actually I think the entire book is well written – though I disagree with some of its content ~nod~

Regarding Anathemism: Self-Destruction I think, that Peter knows just as I do, that writing books is unusual and tends to serve the fortification of a lie, the lie of one’s freedom magically by whatever arguments one makes against it. The sorcerer without a computer and unheard of is the most likely to attain these pipe-dreams we and others lust after.
But we trudge on hoping that our insights or example (even if it be a bad one) can benefit someone nonetheless. Of course, rather than resign ourselves to that possibility of failure we continue to work toward the goal of escaping our own deceitful occult ego – never really sure.

The section on Augoeides has very strong parallels with the ONA’s concept of Wyrd or Personal Destiny. Very interesting reading. THEM’s adoption of synchronicity comes from very early experiences with a sense of traveling aright in the universe bringing unusual events as if to confirm the path. Later, from a cross between the ONA’s acausal/Satan/Baphomet/Dark Ones and the explainations of the Ancient Practice of Keeping one’s Wyrd by literally Keeping one’s Word (Personal Honour/ISS) our emphasis on Synchronicity intensified even to the extent that I was able to conjure forth my current Mistress by calling on the Dark Ones to manifest my Animus from my will to keep my oath to THEM.

In the section of Divination the author states that ‘highly complex mathematical systems represent decadence of the art [of divination]’. I’m not sure how he reconciles this distaste for decadence with his later elaborate diagrams and mathematical workings regarding Catastrophe Theory.
Interestingly, Catastrophe Theory seems to be something on the minds of the ONA, as does probability theory – apparently, to predict chaotic problems in the extremely fragile nature of Aeonic magic and strategy.
One notes a problem with the IOT’s suggestion that magicians should notice all coincidences is the possibility of engaging in the 23 syndrome.

Now, just as the experience of Death cannot be experienced and only ever guessed at via proffered approximates – the author suggests that “if Kia had willed a different set of limitations it would have incarnated elsewhere”. Suggesting that some other probability would arise if not the current one is a deranged logic. Since things only ever present themselves at the moment they exist what possible proof or precedent is there that things would be otherwise? - other than the mutated borrowing of spurious scientific theories propounded separately from the occult to congeal into one’s theories for convenience and stability in presentation – there is None.

Further down the author goes into his ideas about the Will-power and how oaths and tests merely set up conflicts in the mind. I think that here, too, the ONA is markedly different in its insistence on will-power to achieve success. One of THEM has made some exemplary comments regarding the role of the Will and the approach of the ONA to simply force an overcoming of obstacles by willpower alone resulting in ‘a noisy farting in front of the god one is trying to impress’…

Somewhat disappointing that Peter and I should have had identical gnosis (and virtually identical poems at that! [qv. “Blanket” DOAD III] of the innermost self or soul.

I believe strongly in my magic – it’s not always intellectual and I where its not I often sketch a secret Pentagram and whisper isychyros o Baphomet before intending my will. This minimal gesture is all I require with sorcery to achieve an aim. It’s stopped rain, slowed time, fixed the tv, secured a house, won things, protected friends, informed me of danger, and so on. Nevertheless, I’m skeptical of something like a Dark Mirror used to ‘communicate with other Adepts’ esp. of the objective certainty of one staring at it until a pit opens up beneath one. This hides something of an ancient word trick that WE also use. Which is to give a method (usually bizarre) and then supply the suggestion of the outcome to fill any vacuum that arises during or after its performance. I.e. if the magician is expecting a pit to occur from their efforts – they will probably create one. Viz. the 23 syndrome…

Of all the ONA’s (and IOT’s) MSS – the topic that has intrigued me most, but which I’ve not found sufficient explanation on by either group – is the Double/Immortal/Diamond-Body. While I vehemently disagree with the author’s summary of the content of dreaming, Real and Fantasy dreams indeed!, (at least I believe it requires more and patient explanation) if Peter is correct regarding his insights of lucid dreaming requiring the summonation of the hands during lucidity, then following the extremely simple and effective exercise for Lucid Dreaming should reduce the time and experiment required to achieve that state and test for yourself his theories.

I grow a bit tired of the exhortations of ultimate expression, Kia and Anon when a) I’m aware of the bullshit glamour employed by writers and the distinct difference an encounter with the IOT’s ‘Nothing is True – Everything is Permitted’ came out to be. b) a. What seems to occur in a lot of occult groups –and I notice this in THEM too – is that a good or great idea is had, but is then over-talked about. And of course, each additional word couching a simple insight contains the risk of contradiction and destruction. The Alphabet of Desire for instance seems to have arisen from a couple of good pairs Peter made due to insights from his key experiences but then required the pairing and invention of other (often sketchy) “dualities”. Although books like ours were at the time they were written, ‘Synthesises’ – in the very act of writing books one is fooling oneself. Such books, even mvimaedivm are the end stages of an early stage only – however summary, final, or wise they should sound.

The section on Aeons begs the cheeky question. If so many people are focused on the Death of Identity, Spirituality, Superstition, Belief and Ideology coming to Be iconic of this time in history/imperium etc (as are THEM) and Consciously focused on this as an expected desire while focusing the attention of others on the same and thus lusting in a collective for its result to vindicate their prophecy – by IOT’s own admission, isn’t such a prophecy doomed to failure? In fact any teachings by any system, doomed to failure once consciously focused on?

Transubstantiation: frighteningly similar to the MSS of Sruusis and Nuhrasis.

The Chaos-Sphere is also frighteningly similar to the Acausal Pentagram of THEM in which a rent of black void filled with stars flows outwards over the edges and vertices of a broken Pentagram. A dimensional rift if you like. These types of synchronicity – realizing that other magicians and systems have encountered or presenced almost identical features of my subjective journey - continue to peak my interest in the idea of a collective human pool of inspiration, be it the acausal, cosmic being, or gods.

This is the only place I have seen the mention (even using the word) Aeonics, outside of ONA MSS. The ideas laid down by each group on Aeonics are very different however even though they use the same name.

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#76016 - 04/17/13 08:48 AM Mss: Beyond The Adept +O+ [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Will post later.

Edited by Khk (04/17/13 08:50 AM)

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#76023 - 04/17/13 01:48 PM Re: Mss: Beyond The Adept +O+ [Re: Khk]
Le Deluge Offline
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Interesting as always. "The thinking mind as a dualistic thing itself" .... Will get back to that as well.
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#76042 - 04/18/13 07:38 AM Re: Mss: Beyond The Adept +O+ [Re: Le Deluge]
Le Deluge Offline
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I read Carroll some time ago. More on point to your essay: Would you characterize the experience I mention above as mind reflecting on mind? I know exactly what you mean in experiencing a bifurcation. I do tend to wonder if the apparent dichotomy is "real". Granted, the experience is difficult to put into words.
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#76076 - 04/20/13 09:25 PM An Early Study of the IOT (Part II: Psychonaut) [Re: Le Deluge]
Khk Offline
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I think that one of the contentions I have with magic in which one moves about in frenzy or uses tools and incantations is my suspicion (and current conviction) that success in Sorcery can be reached without these means. One instance with which I have experimented is the ability to slow or increase my heartbeat with a mixture of breathing and a concentrated effort to remember (and bring forth – Qv. Grotowski) the emotions and physical symptoms associated with either complete euphoric calm or terror. Having experienced both – it requires only the emotional remembrance (or summoning up) of those states and for one to concentrate on returning to that state of physiology. For example to slow my heart down I recalled my experiences of the calm state experienced from drug trips, from times during which I enjoyed idle relaxation with no responsibilities to attend to, instances of meditation or even the joy and soothing calm of listening to music while going to sleep. Coupled with breathing from the tan tien - this is enough to slow my heart considerably. And I can do this without moving. Likewise, remembering a time of terror, the adrenaline of certain stages of previous fights suffices during which breathing rapidly and recalling the wide-eyes, the panic, the extreme anxiety speeds up my heart. All without moving.
Moreover, social change and a focus on believing human behaviour is predictable to some extent is also something I employ. For instance, when I traveled into the City on a daily basis I began regularly leaving my ticket behind for someone else to use. The gesture proved contagious and now I find myself almost always afforded a ticket by others who have done the same thing up and down the train lines. This then, is the magic to bypass the need for money to buy a train ticket simply by understanding how humans are motivated to do things. In this case, the display of selflessness exhibited by one person is copied because it has defined the situation to be enacted at a train-station when one has a still valid ticket. There are generally no other associations made with this event. Prior to this definition - one either threw their ticket away or kept it out of habit. As the first individual finds a free ticket and experiences elation they may feel obliged to continue the trend and leave the ticket behind at their station stop – they may then go home and tell of this lucky find, esp. if they were occupied at the time with the fact that they had no ticket and were going to be fined if caught – to which someone responds, “that’s a good idea, I’m going to do that next time too”. As the act becomes a trend – the practice develops into something of a secret clique of people anonymously helping each other perhaps out of defiance against the transit system and some level of revenge against its heavy-handed ticket enforcers or just the feeling of doing something good and charitable for someone else. This type of Change - is based on the notion that understanding the criteria required to change an event can change it. There are no magical symbols, no magical words, no magical actions or incantations - only a simple wordless gesture of intent. This is a small example of the social-engineering: THEM have already performed much larger scale successes and this is the tip of the ice-berg.

This procedure/approach to Change is essentially wordless; the act of a wizard of thought and the end result of a finely-tuned reaction developed to short-circuit the often chancy, ineffective, delusory, illusory, occult mumbo-jumbo, qaballa, wicca, grimoires, pacts with demons, rituals of intent and mystical rambling works like Crowley, or inverted Christianity like LaVey. When my Mistress also places her valid ticket alongside my own – it is group magic.

Concerning ‘Levels of Consciousness’ it is interesting to note the level of detail of procedures for attaining various states and what is achieved via their agency by the IOT when compared with the Seven-Fold Way which generally determines a panoramic cosmology and practical way of living with guidelines but does not go into any great detail about how to achieve its presencing – rather the overall goals are set and it is up to the Initiate to discover means and methods for attaining them.

Magical Combat is a fascinating field. We generally don’t talk about it because it’s just something you do or don’t do. What practical purpose is there in making idle threats or in letting the target know you are coming – at least that’s our general view of combat. Very early in the formation of THEM the Sorceresses and I joined forces via the ‘Acausal Voice’ and synchronized our intent to destroy a couple that had proved enemies to one of THEM. We constructed wax effigies in the likeness of the opfers and sigils and photos specifically tailored to destroy them and set about practicing the Death Rite given in the BBOS. This if course proved taxing to our temperaments and attitude to magic - and required significant alterations to the words. Memorizing the Rite was probably the most difficult part – chanting the Dies Irae the easiest. In the end though – the altered BBOS Death Rite was abandoned and the AOF – a distillation of our wordless focus and sychronicity with THEM – devised instead. Although we informed the Sydney Chapter that we had performed the Rite synchronously with them – we were in fact still at the stage of practicing it – making alterations and improving our Chanting. The Sorceress of Sydney performed a number of Rites in the meantime. The result was thus half effective. The couple – whom she had wanted dead for their decadence, split up. It was surmised that as practicing magicians they were aware of the psychic attack and may have split up to prevent the magic designed to end a couple from working. The couple became enemies and remain apart. In this instance THEM employed Ritual magic, symbolism, sigils and sympathy to work its Intent. One wonders what might have happened if we had synchronized out attack as planned. It is one of the aims of THEM to explore this power to a greater extent in future experiments – and to eventually re-examine the Sorcery contained in the Sorcery of Carlos Castenada. We rarely employ this approach however – as our unsaid maxims of Intent or practical actions toward an aim often work without the need for ritualization.

Moreover, sympathetic and sigil magic (Qv. The Star Game) is probably the most used of the traditional magical arts by members of THEM to work its aims. Certainly there is power in its ability to drive enemies from us and have them suffer or bring about synchronous and fortuitous circumstances and events.
It is something of intrigue to us if perchance other LHP groups are aiding us with their magical rituals or perhaps even the opposite for whatever reason that strategy serves. Simply said – THEM are aware of this possibility, from its own Sinisterion, and from the RHP. This is one reason why the causal form of THEM has been given a time frame of thirty years to conclude its experiments (now 28 to go) thus not fighting with entropy indefinitely – though we are equipped (and equipping) to respond to interference in the meantime if necessary.

The IOT makes special mention of the difficulty of magically attacking popular figures. This is a statement that should be put to test.

Of the Rites of Chaos: Catholicism anyone? Exorcism, Extreme Unction – ugh. Invocation to Baphomet worlds apart from that of the ONA. The Initiation Procedures are similar – though the process of Initiation seems to have remained unchanged for a long time in magical history.

The section on Magical Time is interesting. Both the IOT and the ONA scorn astrology and speak of the minimal effect planets have on the human spheres. And both revere the Sun and Moon for their effects.

We know IOT’s “Chemognosis” as “Entheogenics” more or less meaning the purposeful engagement in psychotropic drugs for directed purposes. A number of members are or were privately engaged in exploring these mediums. I’m unsure as to the mushrooms the author’s reference is to: but in Australia there are two kinds of magic mushroom or pscilocybin. One is called the ‘Blue Meanie’ because of the blue colour produced in the stalks once picked – the other is called a ‘Gold-Cap’ and unfortunately resembles about a dozen or more different toadstool and poisonous fungi closely. I have had both types. I will say this: my experiences with magic mushrooms, and LSD although both hallucinogens were very different trips. The mushroom was chthonic, primal, a deeper more submersive trip, while (on later comparison) the LSD lacked a spiritual/magical something… a sense of being artificial and synthetic pervades acid. This entheogenic exploration was something I did during my late teens early twenties. Generally speaking – I later decided it was because I wanted to ‘take the edge off’ my mind and cause some disruption to the endless torrents of intellectual activity it produced. I also took speed thinking it might sharpen my thoughts – though all I ever managed to produce whilst on speed was garbled nonsense and insane ideas – when I wasn’t engaged in the “most meaningful conversations anyone has ever had at any time ever!” type of dialogue with my companions; an effect speed is wont to do. I don’t have any interest in these mediums anymore however – having learned to enjoy and appreciate that intensity of the blade of the keenness of mind. However – I’ve also successfully re-produced the altered state effects of LSD/Mushrooms without using them by engaging my mind in the 23 syndrome (Qv. Prophecy DOAD I). So either/or, really.

Regarding the IOT’s apprehension of Baphomet – it seems to be trying to explain a similar theory put forth in our ‘Theory of the Beast’ though differs markedly in its approach – taking a more spiritually concerned – new age approach of resulting forms that man created without really putting forward a theory on the causative motivations of Mankind from available evidence – which is present and observable every day in the ancient (and very) habits of Mankind at large, both in its limbic responses and its ‘higher’ brain functions. Essentially, although the author has divergent ideas as to what happened and why certain developments were important the ‘Theory of the Beast’ is similar in tone to his own. However the context of Form and Chaos back then, in relation to Form and Chaos now, does not seem to be explicated using memes that can be practically observed here and now in the remnants of human conditioning and behaviour – rather the author leans toward flowery, new-age and romantic philosophies and concepts merely obscuring one form with another – in an effort to explain the Acausal Charge.
‘Chaos is impossible to visualize’ is a tautology – though it must be admitted that the Acausal of the ONA relies on the same faith in its absence to confirm its presence.

As for questions as to why the Snake is a ubiquitous representation of primal evil forces: logic prevails. If we take evolution as read - what became man eventually encountered something else – some other man or being, possibly what eventually came to be called a ‘snake’. What man perceived of the world and his first meeting with a snake can never be known – a subjective mystery long lost and unrecoverable – but there is no doubt that it, and all of these meetings with first phenomena, left a mark and slowly lead to rudiments of fascination and curiosity and attempts at reproduction to communicate them. Hence the eventuation of Gods, Forms, and of course, War.
What Peter describes as the effects of the Psychic Censor is understood by us to be the evidence of the Mind War – though I don’t think the psychic censor as he describes it exists - the Mind War is the schism between those who remember Chaos and those who desired Form. One wonders - If the psychic censor edits out other realities and options of experience for us – how does it ever become noticed? By its absence?

THEM could be said to be concerned with Magick associated with Chaos, (but not Chaos Magick).

With the essay on Choronzon I do agree. Though: if one posits anything as incomprehensible then one cannot then find other things comprehensible - for that thing that is incomprehensible, unknowable, cannot inform that the other thing is comprehensible. Anything incomprehensible sets a limit on the ‘comprehensible’ that inhibits complete understanding.

An interesting statement is the need for one to conceal their megalomania from themselves and make a passing show of humility because megalomania is being seriously treated by the author as an expression separate from humility / where according to Chaos Magic neither actually exist. It is a constant frustration posing inferences when creating a form since it only takes one to trip the form over. Megalomania may be worth studying given that our will is succeeding and hubris only ever a small distance away where Satanism is concerned. Of course, Peter himself makes a passing show of humility by condemning ‘unexpected cleverness’ (Something that is condemned by the IOT today I am told) and suggests how to get around the false Self – even referring to his own ideas as humble opinion (contrasting the pairing of something ((that wishes to appear)) very small against the previous statement that describes humans as conscious, magical and creative being the most mysterious and incredible thing in the universe – i.e. something very very big). False humility is a tool employed by a lot of writers lest their ego scare off the very creatures they are trying to ensnare. THEM do it too. Yet - the true and evidential force of his will despite how he wishes it to be set up to appear - is undeniable given the fact that he has gone to the trouble, of writing a book. Am I making sense when I say THEM sabotage their own forms, yet?

Of course all of these inconsistencies can be conveniently (in some cases fairly, too) explained on the level that the authors instructions were written in a different time and space – that the inconsistencies are deliberate means of presencing ‘chaos’ – or that the whole system is merely itself a tool to be used accordingly by investing one’s belief in it and empowering it to do what it purports to do – wherein we come back to the 23 syndrome and the affirmation by THEM that whatever the human focuses on – is empowered by the corresponding degree of that gaze. One thing is certain – the infinite escapism and irresponsibility afforded by the concept of ‘chaos’ will allow the IOT to dismiss who they like from their fold under whatever suitable pretext they conjure.

I greatly enjoyed the authors essays on Magical Perspective. I think it is a useful thing to categorize introductions to various other systems and his own thoughts on them have made me consider once again my own motives in relation to his ideas.

Finally, in Catastrophe Theory we find another strange occurrence between the two groups with the ONA also involved in the study of the equivalent of Catastrophe Theory to tighten Aeonic strategies and protect them from unexpected disaster.

~

Overall - the author certainly provided a rich field for me to sow my arrogance in my refutations – requiring a more than average discourse. I also find repeatedly that both books concepts travel alongside my own apprehensions of the occult and am struck by the similarity of expression and things chosen to express that Peter has: I will be looking further into Chaos Magic in the hope that Peter has expounded some of these ideas in greater detail. But what really stands out is the similarity and disparity of the ideologies between the IOT and ONA – I think that there exists the possibility of a relation: and if not of members then at least of inspiration leading on toward re-expressions of core ideas. But if so – who influenced who?

ISS
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#76077 - 04/20/13 09:26 PM The 23 Syndrome: Notes and Practice [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
The 23 Syndrome: Notes and Practice
By ThoTh

Part of the extreme emphasis and cynicism of form by THEM, of dissolving faith and reliance in the man-made architectural geometries of the physical world, is related to an attempt to try to silence the equivalent of the “inner chatter” of the mind – for the eyes.

To create uncertainty in perception offers the possibility of unhinging or relaxing the focal point of awareness of the being – with the possibility of exploring or experiencing altered states of perception that being anchored concretely to the world via the collectively shared matrix of ones thought with the general consensus does not usually allow.

Projection of concepts such as density, mass, value, name, or time onto objects via practice and habit is a powerful process that fixes many people in stasis and In Time via the sympathetic bond and repetitive cycle that is built by the assumptions made by the mind when processing the ‘E’ or Black Clay (the environment) and informing ones senses via predetermined methods of interpretation. These processes occur via many unconsciously unchecked postulates that determine a certain way of thinking, and as such then require validation. Validation comes either from others reaffirming the consensus or oneself. And in having validation, it adds gravity/solidity to one’s perception of the world through that particular mode at the expense of others.

The Society of the Dark Lily expressed a similar conception using three descriptions of a walk down the street using three completely different sets of focal awareness:

- - - Society of Dark Lily - - -

Three Alternate Views

One

Walking down the busy high street, I look at all the aliens. I seem to have landed from another planet, now I walk amidst these people who, it seems, take themselves without a thought of the possibility of a different view of one another. I pretend that I am a visitor
from another planet walking amidst a world of humans and so I get a different view. Everything becomes new and unusual, especially the shape of the people.

Two

Inside the shell that is called a body, I can feel the skeleton as it reacts to my unconscious commands. I walk down the high street, my arms swinging, my feet taking steps, my legs working in unison with one another, propelling me forward. I feel the skull beneath the skin and muscle, the backbone that runs up the middle of my back, the bones that serve as the foundation for my fingers, my arms, my legs. I sense my body in a different manner and again, everything becomes new and unusual. Nothing is taken for granted.

Three

I listen to the noises: the thoughts and emotions as they pass through my mind. I am distant from them, but usually they command and I unconsciously obey. For this moment though, I observe: watch, look and listen. A thought that suggests one course of action, an emotion that threatens to sweep me away, but I remain aloof. Is this a first step to the state beyond time and space? The place where the Adept waits for millennia? Where no-one and nothing can cause harm? Where he, or she, becomes immortal?

Three different views on a world where it would seem everything is
accepted at face value.

- - - Society of Dark Lily - - -


Carlos Castenada, SATH, and many other sorcerers agree that the nature of ‘second awareness’ or dislodging consciousness results in an experience so far removed from fantasy, day dreaming, imagination or wishful manifestation, that it would very likely send one who was unprepared mad or jolt them so severely they underwent drastic alchemical change. I relate to this contrast personally via the experiences I have had with the supernatural world which were so distinct that they coloured my perception and beliefs permanently. Although admittedly a cynic of many things – I firmly believe there is much more to ghosts and demons than the idea of them being mere tools useful for psychological analogy. I have witnessed physically things that I believed were not possible or were the sort of thing other people imagined – such as the corner of my bed being pushed down heavily as if something were sitting on it while I was the only one in the room in broad daylight. These things, even as mild as a ghost sitting on the bed, leave the rational mind with an eerie uneasiness that it would sooner prefer to forget. I was 19 at the time but dared not turn around to see what persistently placed so much pressure on the ebd when no-one else was in the house for fear that what I saw would rival the nightmares I had seen as a teen. For honest fear of what I might see. The experience was so odd, so unnatural, that it sent a shiver up my spine that chilled me to the bone as I lay there staring at the wall. I can’t forget – that – or a number of other supernatural events that have influenced my particular view of the occult and magic.

I remain a believer that while none of the currently available descriptions, explanations or theories for ghosts, the soul, afterlife, spirit worlds, alternate dimensions satisfy me or do justice to those unsettling and weird happenings – indeed seem weak and decidedly false in comparison to such supernatural events – that there is more to the world, more to ghosts and demons, more to life and to death, than I can usually comprehend.

The realization that there exists such distinct and unheard of altered states that genuinely split perception into a before/after scenario is not unlike the dual perception that drugs such as LSD can bring about – resulting in a love affair with a drug (or drugs) for the heights and new worlds they allow one to reach or access otherwise locked out of perception. Such heights are as much the muse of the artist, the musician and the genius as they are the witch, witchdoctor, tribal chief, devil worshipper or shaman.

One of the naturally occurring heights analogous to an altered state that has inspired so many of the former – with countless leaps and bounds of human ingenuity just ‘coming to people in a dream’ – is dreaming. Yet the function and power of dreaming historically and culturally, esp. as a prophetic tool or gateway to other worlds is a sadly neglected science and an occult art relegated to the scrapheap as something to be forgotten or treated as the minds garbage. So much for occult faculties within easy grasp disguised in full view.

Although dreaming is not formally recognized or appreciated by my society – it may be owing to the fact that dreaming is an extremely private experience with the language and use of symbols/metaphors deeply unique to each dreamer that causes so much frustration with any kind of interpretation that causes it to be shunned. However - Dreaming is as close as many people I’ve talked to seem to get to supernatural/altered state experiences – as many spurn the entheogenic properties possessed by certain drugs or wave away the risks associated with the drug culture. Wherein ritualized settings and implements for sorcery, meaningful incantations and strange or specific geometry, names of entities, demons, angels, gods and djinn, song, dance, trance, chant, frenzy etc can help aid the magician in increasing or chanelling the effects of a drug – some drugs need no such help – indeed some drugs can take complete control of the magician – I refer to large doses of strong street LSD, an extra-strength dose of the pscilocibin found in mushrooms, but more specifically mescalin/peyote. These types or doses are often to the “societal detriment” of the user – since these substances are so strong they can permanently affect
Ones perception, and permanently shift ones focal point of awareness so far out from its accustomed position that madness (at least as it appears to others from the outside) results from the deeming of an inability of the user to function ‘normally’ within society.

Still continuing to expose/involve myself to a vast number of thought systems, alchemical paths, magical methodologies, occasional drugs, short insight roles, face or integrate stimuli that conflicts with my ego, and so on – what has impressed me most as a continuous factor throughout my experiences with thought is my belief that whatever I point my mind at, I breathe life into. That is to say – that I have sufficiently proven to myself that altered states and in some cases, supernatural experiences, are possible through the agency of the mind alone and a fanatic self-immersement or accepted want of delusion of a form or set of forms – being the equivalent of descending into a personally chosen madness – does not substantiate what I then experience, but it does substantiate that I ‘experience’ because I have immersed myself. I believe that others, pre-loaded with specific concepts and explanations of things such as Time and Space also project these concepts simply because its part of their programming – or what they have learned and/or chosen to accept to work with and work within. Shared convictions of the world in such a similar way – give rise to specific architecture and interpretations, defining permanence, solidity, validity and reality. If this permanence is deliberately broken somehow – things that were not previously visible, ‘believed in’ or locked out of perception are more perceivable. I have encountered over the years startling (startling because I have formulated many of my ideas thinking them original only to discover they are not) similarities in the works of others that verge on such system though it is difficult to determine exactly what is meant and if the context exists as it does for THEM in what have often been occult-style garbled references to such a view.

Austin Spare, to cite just one example, appears to have struggled to express something of this line of reasoning in his ‘Logomachy of Zos’ and to seek to break down the processes of logic and assumption and how the other side made pure/raw interactions, language and words instant miscommunications via their own clumsy handling of such purity of expression because of their habit of attaching and reading into what was presented - thus bordering closely on the means to break free of form. But his narrator not quite managing to achieving a simple formula for doing so, or, expressing a perennial emanation of wisdom at a different time – thus in a different way, rhythym, vocabulary and tempo.

Quoting two interesting passages:

“Is the Truth necessary? The need is for our own Truth: lack of integrity makes for sterility and is meaningless. Things more necessary than Truth are expressed through our efforts to render such.”

&

“There are no conclusive conclusions, yet nothing germinates unless we have, or make, the necessity of arbitrary ‘will-desire-belief’ for a possible image of our ambition.’

Austin neatly expresses two of the alchemical keys utilized by THEM; the first passage renders the intention by THEM to ‘return people to themselves’ wherein building their personal integrity and foundation requires that anytime someone grabs hold of our work as dogma or semantic authority we must dislodge that grip. This probably makes us appear dis-interested perhaps even stand-offish or arrogant – but it must be. That is the formula that works.
The second passage presages the conviction by THEM that any singularity is a deception, any conclusion creates an exclusion – and yet to teach esoteria there must be something visible to allow interaction with the world – in this case, a form, our ‘Temple’ itself a necessary evil.

I’ll add another one here which amazingly relates a similar set of insights as was dealt with separately without any prior knowledge of Spares work in our essays on the “23 Syndrome” and “An Analysis of Frequency”.

“words, words, words, however used, whatever they symbolize, request or tell, say more
Showing in between the antics of all motives. Yes, word-rendering deals the quickest of deaths to flabby ideas; and also words are the most poignant, suggestive, contagious, substitutive, and lasting means to convey anything. Most deadly virus, most potent abreaction of magic subtlety even your erasures reveal your believing by their persuasive influence and their magic.”

Reading these tracts and the many more startling epithets in Logomachy of Zos I am struck by the similarity of Austin’s insights with our own – as I am continually awakened by the over-arching power and undercurrent of Synchronicity that connects us. Spare also had the same luxury we do of leaning on the terminology of Psychology and seems quite enamoured with the Ego as the place/point from which the world proceeds outward. It is almost as though our presence existed to re-translate these perennial truths recorded so many times in so many other places for a new time using a suitable contemporary reorientation of language those of our time would clearly understand. Just as some may try to interpret us. Except that I have only just come across the work of Spare – so no deliberate intention for a translation was possible.

Moreover Spare appears to have shared the view that all of the minutiae that filled the volumes of his books was strictly His – that for all its scope and mass – was yet only His, and just one compression of the unique private experience of being. Chumbley and Crowley do too – using a quasi-language that sought neither to explain or justify itself to others, calling on all manner of strange words formulas and terms to denote processes and/or things from their perception of the world that had no prior name – or used such terms to give a common meaning another one.

While beautiful expressions one and all in their own right – my own impressions were like that of modern art – wherein because people did not understand what was written, and it went over their heads, or because they could not understand it because it was so stylized and cryptic as to not to be decipherable but used all manner of poetry, glyphs and quite frankly, nonsense to appear deeper than it actually was – they read into it and made a pretentious song and dance.

Now, obviously, such cryptic ciphers certainly have their place on another level of the occult in that being undecipherable or possessed of ambiguity they act like roscharch, tarot or other meditative devices such as the mandala – inciting self-reflection. They also have the added advantage of not clearly saying anything about anyone – which means authorities can easily arise to interpret the content for others – and they remain perennially interesting because each person can access such devices at any time in their own private way without feeling like a fool. Crowley was more amenable to this than Spare. And as I have said – in one way, this crypticism is the very essence of the occult, as it aptly captures the heart of the matter concerning objectivity and subjectivity.

I have continually encountered a desperation to quantify aspects of our Being step by step unto an extremely dissective degree of analysis – Chumbley did it, Dee did it, Aquino, Lavey, Long, IOT, WOT, ONA all passed through this intense stage of self-enquiry and exasperation - wherein the magician second-guesses every postulate, fears every assertion, and questions their own authority to assemble the answer with what are always considered to be flawed tools – in the work of many. It is especially prevalent in the hundreds of young magicians (usually male) that I have encountered over the decade wherein the maddening frustration to work things out to the nth degree results in volumes of privately deciphered text and correspondences, astonishingly strange diagrams and illustrations of these cloaked insights in the unique language and logomachy of the magician. I have boxes of these, myself. Of course, Spare, like Lavey, Crowley Chumbley or Dee, etc are dead men. Gone from the world and with them any answers. There exists no chance to enquire further of them into what was meant by various phrases in various works or to seek depth/clarity in the frustrating expressions they left behind. Perhaps it is a true signification of the Work itself that it leaves such quandaries behind even for those who pursued it with their lives. Like so many before and after them we continue the Great Work with Guess Work. A minutes silence for all the poor mad bastards who laid foundations for the occult.

Synchronously – Spare appears to have also been concerned with the numinous and even refers directly to an intersection of time and space as a nexion – as has been some of the most influential work of the Order of Nine Angles. In this copy of Logomachy are spelled as ‘noumenal’ and ‘nexity’. How long has the Cosmos been attempting to presence this change in consciousness that we are present vessels of?

Quote:
“time-space is an empirical relativism deriving from our manifold of complete and unsynthesized representations seeking nexity. The unrelated has neither time, space, nor ego.”


I’ll try an example here to give a more concrete example of how these concepts relate to one another.

I used to look at a tree for instance, and instantaneously project its life direction or life force as thrusting upward from the ground. Running through my mind what I had been taught about trees – running the program “TREE” at the speed of light - leaves, branches, wood, sap, etc. and with it, my knowledge of how trees grow, that they grow and the innumerable examples I had seen that ‘proved’ all of this. Thus when I perceived trees I perceived them as growing objects and attached the concept of their life moving upward.

After having my brain fried by the Septenary Way by encountering my personal hell of the meaning and presence of the ‘Angles’ – coupled with my acceptance of relativity; when I looked at a tree (or anything for that matter), I no longer processed it automatically as something solid that was outside of me, separate from me.

It used to be just another stationary inert object that time flowed past/through just as Time and space intersected neatly so that one traveled with the other. But since the Angles – nothing is that nice and simple anymore. In fact all objects took on a more complex axis like this > * but continuing with the example of a tree, I could feel the trees energy as coming (and being part of) more than one source – and not just part of the scenery in my perception as an external item which once it and largely everything else was.

The tree was no longer connected to the world as strongly as once it had been - that is to say it did not seem to be anymore a part of ‘nature’ and causality than I did - but emanated (life) from some secret place of its own.

The angles also broke the convenience of feeling myself to be moving while it was a stationary object – my awareness told me now that it was moving in concert with everything around it – just as I was, and everything else was – shifting all the time. And the tree which had previously informed my sense of one fixed shape and description – i.e. large, covered in bark, standing still – split off to generate a layer of perspectives and not just on the level that my eyesight could pick up, but with insistence that beneath the bark there was a world seething with insect life, within the trunk and leaves it was groaning with invisible growth spurts and secret alchemies, on smaller diminished scales it was the universe of smaller creatures harbouring microscopic worlds of its own, and yet at the same time just one tree of thousands, a relative part of a much larger landscape and forest. Moreover, my perception of Time was altered due to the acceptance of the acausal component so that the tree no longer grew nice and simply from one point in time and would finish in another – but now all stages of growth were implicit while at the same time the tree lived its life before my eyes and the landscapes changed as if hundreds of years were passing, or dropping away, throwing my perception back and forth like a ragdoll trying to rationally conclude where in time and space this tree was situated.

My concept of the world has never been simple since the day I found the Angles – all at once things zoom up so I can see them from a great height, zoom in so I can see them as layered in dimension and size pending my own consciousness as a human, smaller and larger than a human… zoom back forward, and even directions lose meaning. “up”, “down”, just weird sounds and syllables that seem rudely out of place and desperately inadequate to explain this maddeningly slippery slideshow.

Time though, time really ruined my mind. See the diagrams in UAE wherein I discovered that not only was the tree growing upward and outward in time simultaneously with me – that is to say, sharing the same time continuum so that we both traveled it at the same time, me getting older as it got older – but somehow space/matter which was on the y axis, while time was on the z axis, were both were traveling toward and away from each other at the same time – yet remained intersected. A conceptual nightmare for my linearly trained mind.

It’s nice and easy to go through life with neat convenient postulates that you don’t look at too clearly –and get wrapped up in the trials and tribulations of it to keep you busy enough not to ever have to seriously enquire into such foundations. But when these things which people take for granted are no longer accurate or possible – in fact irreparably damaged so that one feels dirty trying to return to them, to deny the expansions and opening of the senses that the magician perhaps foolishly lusts after - it is as though I had become obsolete to the rest of the world and am still learning to cope with the simplistic perceptions other use to govern it. These widening circles of perspective also re-coloured
my interactions with people – in a lot of cases for the worse, in some particular cases, such as understanding how my own mind works – for the better.

I also have no trouble with understanding what used to appear to be contradictions – finding it easy to reconcile what language has a habit of setting apart. Such terms as occultists use viz ‘Within and yet without’ ‘I am but yet I am not’ and other colourful expressions merely signify what lies beyond the capability of language to express without creating a tension of opposites – for a tension of opposites is the only way language which operates within linear time and 3d space can express what is beyond words – not as some mysterious abstract dimensions – but merely beyond words. Words for all their subtlety, are occult-wise not subtle enough. Hence the endless array of spell books and grimoires that invite personal participation of processes and abstract descriptions to find out for oneself, what is really meant. Because when you write just one word – you err from the authentic and find yourself forced to write another to correct it – but alas you only end up digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole. Unless of course you seek to write all the days of your life to try to correct these errors – wherein there is some hope you might cover all bases, dot all the I’s and cross the t’s, and eventually achieve to say what you mean. If of course what you meant to say hasn’t changed over the years, or become less important in the face of new discoveries.

None of this altering, zooming, maddening perspective is voluntary – or a gift or skill I can switch on and off – I need no meditation on objects to make them do this – the whole world and its contents have become extremely uncertain for me and all of its visible geometry null in value – and I doubt I can ever again trust or believe it. Now it’s as if I look at things beyond the physiological media of my eyes. If this is some side-effect or result of some degree of acausal perception, it is maddening and I’ve stayed quite mad from its effect.

I find myself looking beyond things all the time – treating clocks watches etc as something that other people do, like I’m a visitor in the world and the “Time” is something others work to.

My enormous body of work with forms, illusions, dissolving the matrix and other such things is probably a direct result of my personal experience with suddenly breaking part of my mind so that I saw the world in terms of literal angles – much like a wireframe.
I tried to encapsulate this ‘essence’ in the Master card of Archetypia – but nothing static really does justice to the uneasy shifting-ness of the world I now find to be my lot in daily life.

Things certainly don’t have the permanence they used to – I see whole lives of things sprout grow and rot as they sit in place, the house I live in swallowed by grass and claimed back by trees as some sort of future vision forces the house away and through its path of time more quickly than it ever really should for a normal person – who I’m fairly sure doesn’t feel the world is illusory or slipping to and from an unexplainable loop that spatial concepts like external/internal/outer/inner are just hopeless to use.

If I wasn’t me and read some of the things written by the Temple of THEM – I’d certainly think the writer had lost a few marbles. Some of the concepts I believe in or try to explain really are completely mad. I don’t curse any madness I might have picked up. It’s not a happy madness – but neither is it really a sad madness – it is more than anything a deep sense of lonliness and isolation from others and just staring beyond everything that others find joy in. It seems that you have to lose a lot of marbles to go deep – and I’ve tried where skill had a hand and with a lot of luck to lose only the right ones.

I didn’t have inner silence when I found the angles – I hadn’t even tried at that stage to quiet the chatter within. In fact I had a ‘religious’ experience that left great distaste and embarrassment and anger with me.

But I believe the gradual erosion and eventual disintegration of the concepts that my mind held firm (such as the super-simplifications of linear time and space) was a fundamental step that helped greatly to experience the angles and to achieve unusual insights and ideas. Also that this process of breaking things down could greatly help as a process of alchemical putrefaction to enable someone to achieve similar or even greater perceptual changes without having to go through the personal anguish and hell that I did to get here. And yet the challenge remains to stay sane enough to continue to form and share coherent retrospective of my journey. Perhaps I am the only one to travel this path and come up with these ideas that characterize my work – perhaps I am not tapping into a collective current that others may follow and expand – but am self-deceived in my own delusions of magical progress – but at the end of the rainbow, sanity is over-rated.

Fair enough that my experiences are possibly all in my head – or in no way fit to match the set of descriptions that I’ve heard a mescalin or peyote trip brings on physically. Using (infrequent) strong doses of mushrooms and lsd does not appear to have been the causal component that led to the vivid hallucinogenic perceptual change of the world that has taken place for me – but lsd was almost certainly the launching pad.

I cite the complete difference that took place in my artwork after my first lsd intake as a drastic example of how deeply this drug may have affected me – but in all fairness I have been involved with others heavily into the drug culture for many years and throughout they nurtured my understanding, respect and made my experiences with such substances more meaningful and spiritually rewarding, acting as guides, than such experiences would probably have been – and my influence from drugs is best disguised as a rich and lengthy tapestry. “Burning holes in my brain”, “opening up neural paththways” these are two of the concepts my entheogenic travellers used to describe to me what was possible with such substances. And no question that they did – and were at least partly responsible for my cynicism of all that I constantly refer to as ‘forms’. A few near death experiences have added to the spiritual grasp for more to life and the urgency with which I’ve written about it.

All of these and no doubt many other factors have resulted not in a drug-addled delusion but a psychic re-integration and interpretation of the world that is best described as a permanent sense of slight disorientation both spatially and chronologically.
I have the constant feeling I’m between worlds, somehow a ghost traveling through time and alive and vivid - but somehow that I’m also a projection back from a future point in time where I’m already dead. And I’m only thirty years old – this is heavy baggage to go the rest of the way with.

Damn you ONA.

None of this may be real to you, or others, or even for me – it may not even match what is experienced by others who believe they’ve tapped into such things as the acausal or at least are onto the right track – but may be a direct result of the ideas and concepts I have continually washed my brain with. Uncharacteristically for me, I have not assumed a priori that the acausal or other worlds or states or that which lies in the glimpses of those strange places and happenings of the supernatural - by whatever name - are found subjectively or objectively.

But - what is possibly my own self-delusion could also very well turn out to be the groundwork for a science of reorienting consciousness resulting in acausal perception, or at least a weirdly expanded perception bordering on opening the gateway to the former. Experimentation continues.


Saturday 11 July, 119 fyn. (2009)

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#76078 - 04/20/13 09:38 PM Mss: Beyond The Adept (A Reply by Anon.) [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Beyond the Adept

ONA = (This is an extract from a letter sent to an Internal Adept – doc written by ONA and posted on camlad)

+O+ (A Contemplation of DWM by Anon of THEM.)


ONA - Several issues need to be addressed, such as is the ONA as exists at present, relevant to you, and indeed, relevant of itself, and also what is the meaning of Adeptship and beyond in supra-personal terms.

Let us consider whether there is - and must be - a supra-personal dimension to Adeptship and beyond, and if so, what is the nature of this in practical terms. That is, is it part of being an Adept - and especially of the grades beyond - to strive to change the world in some way? - ONA

+O+ The synthesis at which one arrives from Living is always going to be the dictatorial factor representative of a (I hesitate to use, “their”*) particular and unique means of perception; an inevitable eventuation of an equation of math and geometry / psyche and physis that distills the contents of the collective numinous pool belonging to certain of our species, the Acausal proper, (presenced every so often in the practical genius in one of the three modes of Time that overtake a man or woman - or speaking asexually, the human nexion) whose singular distillation of the components involved in all presently understood equations, and the nature of whose acausal charge eclipses the initial Question (‘or challenge posed’ to use another terminology) and lays the foundation for the bridge that can span the ‘gap’ between one consciousness and the yet undreamed of other. What is certain is this: the World, will Change with or without the agency (pretended or genuine) of adeptic involvement. I think that this aspect of Adeptship is the skill and confidence to know when, where and how change is perceived to occur during one’s Time, and the predicted outcome of that action without interference of a conscious and directed kind. This, being the age of Kali Yuga, should not be the time for fear of experimentation with Change: we have three hundred years to get it wrong/right and refine those methods that seem to be coming to the fore of human consciousness at this time of initial ‘Fayen’.
*When one becomes an Adept – and I believe the exhibition of this quality changes in accordance with the changing face of humanity and its aspirations manifest and yet unmanifest; the clear demarcation between ‘Individual’ and ‘Collective’ becomes irrevocably blurred. In pursuing Insight/Ingress Roles for instance, one can learn to ‘jump’ from one consciousness to another, that is, to attain such amazing empathy/sympathy with one’s own state of Being that one can literally see from the eyes and minds of others – and, influence them toward the similar state indicative of Adeptship (in various degrees at various speeds pending the nexion and Adept) of co-operation with the numinous sketch defined by the Master(s). Thus one’s “pressures” upon the world are metaphorically mirrored in the Abstract ‘Science’ of the Star Game – where one thing may be many, many may be one – co-existing contradictions chasing each other’s harmony. In this way, DM has transferred his consciousness, his qualities, his ambitions, his mentality and his laws of the Master (that is to say his numinous sketch – or weltanschauung) to adepts world-wide; a splintering of his consciousness into many, indeed thousands, of living breathing nexions – many still seeds, unaware of their paradoxical symbiosis with one another or the source of this consciousness, most still mired in the frames of reference of their Time, under the influence of illusion and convenience – yet deeply stirred to approach the world with the same blinding Love (and Detachment) as DM. The supra-personal, like all temporal living forces expressed as abstracts of the Sinister Way, by virtue of its very existence, presence and deliberation here and now, is no coincidence – it is no anomaly – rather it is part of the numinous sketch, a consequence of distillation and prior action and non-action to which this Time and its people are tied to particular temporal symbolism and particular challenge. When this question has been satisfactorily solved or its next phase of development (i.e. a better phrased question or subsequent evolution of its abstract) by the majority of human beings with which its presence is occurring and causing some consternation: then there is no doubt that what constitutes an Adept will change, as may the necessity for Adepts to interfere or for them to maintain the illusion of their interference pending the outcome of the strength of the next numinous sketch.
If for instance, the ONA achieved their galactic ambitions, realized 300 years from now by a consciousness vastly superior to our own who had mastered abstract thinking to such a degree that such things as the idea of constancy of reality upheld in magic for instance (whereupon it is one belief that magic works only if all participants believe in its aim and are focused without doubt) could be dropped (i.e. that pessimistic perception of reality discarded) due to abstract perception and an immoral i.e. empathic non-dual bound perceptual means of heurisy could allow new sciences for energy, travel, technology etc and that galactic species formed the collective part of the remaining human race who saw beyond the causal entrapments we uphold… then what might the role of an Adept be? As consciousness changes, so does the Adept.
This is one reason why some people I have encountered are confused angered or destroyed when the form they have built or spent a lot of time aiding is suddenly torn down or altered – because they lack the perception of abstract reasoning essential to understanding the temporal necessity of a form esp. in relation to a creature like the Order of Nine Angles. One great example, though which will probably be raise an eyebrow or two, is that by Marilyn Manson – whose own antics clued me in early as to the methodology of metamorphism and the ONA. Manson built a huge following as a gothic rockstar focused on Satanism, American Degeneracy, Destruction of the Simple in Ethics, and so on – using Charles Manson, Willy Wonka, Adolf Hitler, Marilyn Monroe and all sorts of dark/light symbiote opposites (hence his name) which held many in psychic thrall which he then - right at the top of his fame - completely abandoned to present his new album and new image of space-glam via Mechanical Animals. His fans were subsequently divided – a great many abandoning (just as he predicted/forced) Manson until he later returned many years later to his gothic roots. I think Manson’s genius lent much to my understanding of the ONA’s own underlying formations – though I expect some will see this comparison with distaste – wrongly. This conscious decision by Manson to deliberately abandon one form and show his audience up for the sycophants they were is not unlike the ONA abandoning the older Naos/BBOS/NS/Islaam etc. in favour of a space-race focus of Dark Gods, Galactica and Fayen.
It might also be helpful to suggest that the more one leans toward calling these exhibitions and expressions of the Order or defines the acts of DM as ‘inhuman’ ‘numinous’ ‘shapeshiftic’ ‘trickster’ – thus transfiguring the actual human emission of these forces into something altogether ‘other-wordly’ ‘Dark Godish’, ‘Alien’, but at any rate, less than human – is potentially due to the fact that Abstract Reasoning is not yet developed or attained by many – and thus the strangeness of this perception must take on a monstrous or somehow unearthly distorted form in order to begin getting across the rudiments of what will someday be understood through actual Abstract Perception. One finds that Myatt’s actions and effects tend not to be viewed as stemming from a simple human being – but a genius at best, a dark god at least. +O+


ONA - Or is there just a personal dimension to an Adept - that their goal is their goal and the world, and people, and the Cosmos, are basically irrelevant? Indeed, we might also ask are such "Grades" important anyway? ONA

+O+ What is important here is two-fold – firstly the spirit of contemplation and abstract assessment of those questions and forms that still do and probably will for a long time affect and have an effect of the human race and its Time and Ethos – that is, to involve oneself in the world as an empathic agent, concerned with mirroring all and every detail of Form which finds importance in the realm of the objective creatitude that humanity inhabits. Secondly – and this is where my own gnosis has been the most frustrating in trying to convey something that can only be understood from a perception that can view multiple realities all simultaneously co-existent truths, that it is not THE questions whatever their grand answers may be that are important to ask – but rather that underlying forceful assessment and re-assessment of things that DM/ONA exhibit, that exploration, and continual updating of what is beyond, beneath, beholden, Is important. As I have intimated above, the Adept, can live, that is move their consciousness about, but can no longer spiritually (i.e. with any genuine certainty) specify a separation point between individal/collective, personal/Aeonic spheres/forces/realms. This diffusement of physical embodiment from the personal shell, this de-centralization of the human geometry into the very fabric of causal time and space (life-centred geometry or co-nexion with the Acausal), through all and some other consciousnesses succeeds, in destroying the simplification of one’s Seat of consciousness – and is one step toward attaining the Diamond Body – which, I am inclined to believe DM has done. +O+


ONA - Personally, I do believe such Grades are necessary, still - and thus relevant. There may - indeed, should - come a time when they are no longer required, as forms, but that is a very long way in the future, given the nature of the majority of these beings named "humans". They are relevant and necessary as forms, as guides, providing a structure that is necessary, as a map is often useful in an unknown area, shortening the time required to get where one is going. ONA

+O+ Yes – I think the “Grades” are still important, at this time. As everything is and does tend to be important or called for to maintain, sustain and propagate at any given stage of causal time from what can be ascertained occurring or lacking in the human condition. Though I should point out, that I have not followed the Seven-Fold Way in what might be called the conventional spirit –I have in some way or another attained a pretty good understanding of what lies beneath it. I could not have done this without equivalent tasks of the Grades or personal undertakings which lead to similar understanding from experience. It is not that these tasks are required to undertake in order to understand – but rather, I think, that means to explain the new perception are lacking and still in development. Such things as the Grades help provide the answers to questions that as simple as they seem to the asker – draw only blank stares and silence from those who can’t help but feel they know why such questions are being asked and exactly how they fit into the context of human consciousness and its development – and more pointedly – why such questions are signs of distance. Until enough people are removed from their seat of consciousness and diffused into the aether – when a critical mass is reached with enough people able to force the numinous sketch onto paper – how to communicate the intimations of that new science for which a language does not yet exist? The usefulness of the dead language no longer suffices – the practical touching of the world and experiencing its ways is a reversion in desperation and in part convenience to speak the Way. +O+

ONA - The answer to the supra-personal nature of Adeptship is already implicit in what an Adept is - someone who has developed aspects of themselves, and especially their abilities and consciousness. This development is outward, and involves empathy with living beings, with Nature and the Cosmos itself. There is a thus an understanding of the individual in relation to these things, as there should also be the beginnings of a rational understanding of the world, of human nature, of "history" and our evolution and promise, as beings. The Adept therefore understands how certain forces (or energies) be they archetypal or whatever can affect individuals, and groups, and how certain forms can presence, and be presenced, to change individuals and groups. This is the beginnings of understanding the real magick beyond the low, external, results magick of Initiates and External Adepts, and this understanding imparts a certain desire in the Adept to produce causal changes - be the method of such production, such presencing, artistic, magickal, or whatever. 

But is there a duty of change, of presencing, beyond this still quite personal desire, creativity or action-in-the-world? A duty of dialectic - of causing, provoking, or being the genesis of, larger-scale changes by supra-personal means? ONA

+O+ Where one finds oneself a conscious nexion – one of the lucky (or stoic) few who realize their own context (and for me, this seems to be the great challenge of this epoch, variously called ‘awakening’ waking up’ higher consciousness’ etc) - one will inevitably be subject to the synthesizing faculties of persona that continue a reaction, a direction, a creation. If an opened nexion becomes symbiote with the supra-personal then personality is diffused into the numinous sketch of possibility along with responsibility. One cannot be held accountable when one is imbued in every living thing, when consciousness is acausal, for then every thing is an extension of life-imbued consciousness (Qv. Acausal Voice)– a living body of anomalies diffused in the passage of a greater co-nexion. +O+

ONA - And if there is such a duty of Adeptship, then what, if any moral guidelines, should the Adept follow, especially given the empathy they have developed, or many have developed? Such questions really are the beginning of the move from Adeptship to beyond the Abyss - a sign that at a time not too distant in years, the Adept is moving toward the next stage. ONA

+O+ An answer correlates directly to Change. Every moment that passes in causal time this question requires a different answer and will generate a different answer. An answer that is as perennially unchanging throughout Tradition even as it appears solid in its static form as a ‘question’. At any point in Time a duty of Adeptship is to surpass the current Master. +O+

ONA - As often, there are no clear answers - for each Adept must struggle outward to their own answers to such questions, for it is their answering, their struggle to so answer, which is important, not some given "teachings" or whatever. But there are some guidelines which, as often, may or may not help - and which may or may not serve as a dialectic, to provoke, to be balanced, countered, or perchance even agreed with, but only after much thought. ONA

+O+ Absolutely. I answer these questions only for my own satisfaction and out of the confidence borne of struggle.+O+

ONA - What are these guidelines? They derive from the nature of an individual, from the nature of magick - from the very meaning and purpose of the life of an individual. Our Way, of esoteric magick, gives some special, often unique, answers to these things, and it is these answers which differentiate our Way from that of other Ways, and especially from what have come to be called Religion and Politics (both terms are of course only reductionist, abstract, terms which describe certain causal projections onto the numinous matrix of the Cosmos). How do we view the individual? As one particular causal presencing of acausal energies. How do we view the purpose, the meaning, of that individual? As one means of evolving - of accessing more and more of the acausal, through willed change, and thus as a means of positively interacting with the acausal, with the numinous matrix of the very Cosmos itself, which of course includes, Nature, here on this planet which is our home, and the beings we share this planet with. What is this "willed change"? It is true magick, which includes our seven-fold Way, and the various means of presencing the acausal which we have developed or learnt. The answer of our Way means than our duty, as beings, is to evolve ourselves - to seek to take the opportunity which our causal life is; to seek to develop that potential which is latent within us.

How then, in this context, do we view the other beings with which we share this planet? Before Internal Adept, the answer is seen as simple - they are means, which we can use to further ourselves, and the Cosmos, for that is their purpose, even though they themselves do not know this. Their purpose, according to us, is not to attain, a "happiness", or even some kind of "afterlife" in a religious sense. But Internal Adept provides us with that perspective, that empathy, which was often lacking - or rather, it should provide us with these things, as part of our own development. Thus, do we come to understand the true nature of such things as suffering, both personal and supra-personal, and this understanding may present us with some problems, especially when we view what seems to be the futility of bloody struggle, century upon century, thousand year upon thousand year.

Thus are we as Adept brought to questions such as - there must be a better way to evolve this human species, to change the matrix, without the waste, the suffering? What is this better way?

To answer questions such as these we must once again consider such things as the true nature of magick, and the true nature of Time, and the nature of evolution itself. Indeed, we should ask, is there - can there be - such a thing as evolution? Is that also just an abstract construct imposed upon the numinous matrix? ONA

+O+ I think evolution is a construct. But ONA’s vital emphasis on practical living is essential for placing this in context. We are forced to use a language forged for a consciousness that was very young (humanly speaking) and to convey essential ‘objective’ facts and experiences quickly and efficiently - but still speak in the same language which has not undergone any significant changes to face the challenges being imposed by the limits now being felt where it cannot and does not express essence – but merely translation. It is also a language heavily influenced by the need for moral imperatives and causal restriction, aspects that have yet to be expunged or replaced with a substitution – though the Star Game is one stroke of genius in this direction. A question like ‘Can there be such a thing as evolution?’ cannot be definitively answered until consciousness is diffused. +O+

ONA - Thus we are led to consider the very nature of the Cosmos, of this numinous matrix. Again, our Way provides some answers, some guidelines. We view the Cosmos as a living entity, albeit an acausal one, and an entity which does not exist apart from us, as finite beings. That is, we as evolving, changing, beings are the evolution of this Being. Our consciousness, our magick, is the consciousness, the magick, of this Being. Thus, our change is implicit in our very nature, as is the truth that we possess the ability to change ourselves - for this is one of the most fundamental principles of our Way, of genuine magick itself. By our magick, our Way, we are bringing consciousness to the Cosmos - which is why of course our move outward, from this planet in the physical sense, is so important so we can access, understand, what is beyond, and thus make that known.

Yet this Being, which we are, is not the Being which other Ways have identified, or posited. It is most certainly not "God" - nor even the abstracted opposite of such an abstract construct. ONA
+O+ Whereby without Abstract Perception (or rather, De-Abstracted Perception) many are confused as to how the ONA Is, both, not in any way Satanic. And yet, quintessentially, Is. +O+
ONA - It is just what IS, as what IS exists: a summation of causal and acausal, far beyond our often silly abstract causal projections upon IT. We provide, or rather can provide, the forms to presence aspects of it - sometimes in myths, or a mythos (such as The Dark Gods) - but these are of course just beginnings, mere forms to be transcended; mere beginnings of the real magick which awaits for us. For, yes, to provide, to "create" such forms to presence IT , to propagate such forms and so change other human beings in diverse ways, is an Art, of genuine magick. Just as the dialectic of ours is an Art, albeit one much misunderstood.

This should begin to answer the question about "morality" and such things. One answer is that, yes, there is a way for us to evolve ourselves and others without the stupidities, the wastefulness, of the past - and this is the Way of our magick, of our own still evolving Way, which Way makes available to us all that we need to avoid the waste, the stupidities, of the past, as evident for example in the Seven-fold Way itself, with its Grade Rituals. This particular answer is to refine, enhance, the techniques, and make them known, thus enabling more and more individuals world-wide to begin the process of individual and supra-personal change. That is, to extend, evolve, our Way itself.

Yet - does this not imply a slowness? A significant change in an Aeon, or even more? Is it desirable for us, or some of us, to strive to speed up this process of human evolution, by for example, involving ourselves in using certain causal forms which may produce such speedy change? Or do such forms indeed produce speedy change? Is that merely an illusion? Such are the questions for each Adept to ponder, and answer. ONA

+O+ Wherein, slowness is a state of perception afforded by our relative size, which is afforded by our constancy of consciousness in the body – consciousness which can be diffused leading to ‘greater’ or even cosmic size and a smashing of such simplistic concepts in view of a whole new science and language and subsequent apprehension of all these things way beyond the immediate concerns of something human-sized, with which human-sized concerns manifest. Time, is relative to consciousness. The presencing of ‘speedy change’ seems more an exertion of the Acausal on the Causal than conscious understanding by its nexions for its (speedy changes) purpose – purpose that cannot be understood from human consciousness firmly seated in the skull alone.
Forms definitely have the power to bring forth change. Narrative – might be considered the infant first born of what may someday become ‘Numinative’ – whereupon those who can control/shape the geometric channels through which the river of humanity flows – may be considered the experimenters and explorers of a new power borne of greater consciousness than ever before, still in its raw unrefined state. For illusions, far from being the ethereal mirages their name conjure forth – are in fact the most solid of projections, and even if they be a lie on one level, i.e. from a consciousness seated in the human skull, they are a truth on another, i.e. when consciousness is diffused into the numinous sketch. Thus it is that DM is able to be, that is, BE, both NS/Islaam, yet be neither at the same time – all in complete harmony. Moreover to honestly deny being one person or the other, and truthfully claim to be separated from his other personas – these being separate and connected in abstract perception. +O+


ONA - Which brings us to the ONA. Is the ONA as existing at present still relevant? Does it need to change, perhaps some of its symbols, its own causal forms? If so, why? And how, toward what? Such are also questions which each Adept must ponder, and answer for themselves. ONA

+O+ My views on ONA and the changes that I feel beneficial to make to ‘it’ (being that some don’t actually see the differentiation yet) have been made within my own presencing. So no comment from me here. +O+

ONA - One clue - is this ONA, as perceived by others and those of Adeptship and below, just an outer form which has a yet unknown inner essence? ONA

+O+ Yes. Though I doubt I should be believed were I to put forth my intimations on just what ONA are.+O+

ONA - Is this essence hidden, awaiting the consciousness that is created beyond the Abyss? ONA

+O+ This question has a strange vibration. Almost as if DM were asking it himself, unsure of the answer. Which, is fair enough. He’s a pioneer in a very strange place.+O+

ONA - And if it is so hidden, why is this? Deliberate - or just part of its real nature, meaning that this nature cannot be apprehended below this Abyss, that it is unperceptible by those who do not possess the perception to perceive it with this new perception being developed over time by an Adept, propelling them toward the next stage? ONA

+O+ Quite so – I think that again, until consciousness has been diffused out of the human skull, the nature of many things remains invisible. Who can hope to understand what lies beneath without Abstract Reasoning (Qv. Star Game both as metaphor and literal working) – it is hidden because a language and perception to experience it in its new form, is still occult – still new – still developing. DM’s efforts have singularly motivated thousands to concentrate on such a thing as the Acausal – made them aware of it, of its context – with a critical mass, a synthesizer of its science may lead the breakthrough. +O+

Does this success of invoking meditation, not in itself, reflect the necessity for Adepts to continue learning the science of speedy changes as asked above? At least for the time being.+O+
ONA - And is part of this real nature something which cannot be contained by any such causal form and so cannot even be named? ONA

+O+ It may very well be, that this acausal dimension is a myth, whose fable acts as the crucible for a new direction, systematically and diametrically opposed and even beyond the methods of absorption and distortion attributable and characteristic of the Magian. But in questing for its existence, something will be broken that can never be fixed – and this in itself seems to be reason enough to believe, for a time at least, in the temporal suggestion of an Acausal. On the other hand – while it cannot be named – it can be experienced. A new language requires development to express it – such a language might be called a combination of cliology, change, and the sharpening of pencils in preparation for the numinous sketch.+O+

ONA - In Conclusion:
Such are some of the questions which arise, or which may arise, for an Internal Adept. And yet - what must be remembered is that all such questions are only questions; that Thought is merely Thought, and often a distraction to that real change, that real presencing of the sinister, that is part of our Way and which involves, as it always does and has done, action-in-the-world: that is, real acts, by the individual.
These acts are and must be - for an Internal Adept moving toward the Abyss and thus the next stage - beyond both the Light and the Dark, yet being both Light and Dark and yet containing the essence of the Sinister itself. If they are indeed moving toward the next stage, then they will understand this - or at least be moving toward this understanding. 
Furthermore, those who withdraw from the Sinister, in all its Aeonic forms and presencings, as a result of answering such questions, have indeed withdrawn from our Way, and thus will not move-forward to the stage of Mastery. ONA

+O+ Is the ONA relevant to me as it exists and at this stage of my journey? Without giving anything away – what the ONA actually are is something relevant to everyone at every stage of every journey.+O+

ONA - Anton Long
Order of Nine Angles

+O+ Anon. +O+

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#76079 - 04/20/13 10:04 PM Re: Mss: Beyond The Adept (A Reply by Anon.) [Re: Khk]
Fnord Offline
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Thank the ancient evil gods that you have a thread within which to contain your walls of text.

Why do you o9A types care about Satanism again?
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#76081 - 04/21/13 12:51 AM Re: Mss: Beyond The Adept (A Reply by Anon.) [Re: Fnord]
Khk Offline
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Can't speak generally. Me, because Satan exemplifies the Rebel and thus an archetype of evolution, including from Satan and Satanism, eventually. And what is your fear of walls of text?
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#76082 - 04/21/13 01:53 PM Re: Mss: Beyond The Adept (A Reply by Anon.) [Re: Khk]
Le Deluge Offline
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@KhK: Would you formulate an argument for or against the acausal? One thing surprised me in the text: Is it questioning its outer form proper or just reworking intimations? Curious exchange. Granted, I wouldn't subject any response to falsification. I don't know, am not "ONA", but am curious by the direction that text took.
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#76084 - 04/21/13 06:17 PM Re: Mss: Beyond The Adept (A Reply by Anon.) [Re: Le Deluge]
Khk Offline
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Against. See 'Causating the Acausal'. However, I also recognize that the concept of the Acausal plays a role in the learning, thinking, developing process of perception, contemplation, philosophy, magic and context, and particularly in religious, artistic, musical and creative inspiration.

Edited by Khk (04/21/13 06:17 PM)

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#76085 - 04/21/13 06:47 PM Re: Mss: Beyond The Adept (A Reply by Anon.) [Re: Khk]
Fnord Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Khk
And what is your fear of walls of text?


Fear? You got fear out of what I typed? LOL.

I am a fan of elegance in simplicity. In other words, if you can't say it in a few paragraphs (which should be enough to accomodate nearly any idea) then I probably won't read it.

That said, I like your succinct take on Satan.
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#76096 - 04/22/13 06:08 PM Re: Mss: Beyond The Adept (A Reply by Anon.) [Re: Fnord]
Khk Offline
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These older manuscripts, were very wordy, as I struggled to match phrase by phrase intimations of insight. I am today, with greater clarity and succinct. But not everything is simple or there would be no need for what I write or how I wrote/write. I don't mind if you don't read it. It may not be for you.
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#76097 - 04/22/13 06:10 PM Re: Mss: Beyond The Adept (A Reply by Anon.) [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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In light of thought on the matter, that article mentioned should be termed "A-causating the Causal" - since the other combination implies the existence of the acausal. Like "Race", the "acausal" is an abstract motivator.
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#84754 - 02/03/14 07:53 AM Holochrist and the Temple of THEM in 2014 [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Posts: 398
The Temple of THEM has a 2014 Wordpress with new (and older) material.

We also recently tried our hand at writing a novel of sinister fiction. It was called Holochrist. A sample chapter can be found here: http://thetempleofthem.com/2014/02/01/holochrist-sample-chapter-4/

It was recently reviewed here: http://anglesovdisruption.blogspot.fi/2014/02/the-sickened-coming-of-christ.html



Edited by Khk (02/03/14 07:55 AM)

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#85095 - 02/17/14 11:49 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
kerriscott Offline
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FYI, some O9A people have recently lambasted Ryan and his 'temple' q.v. - http://omega9alpha.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/o9a-etiquette-v3a.pdf
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#85097 - 02/17/14 01:21 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
SIN3 Offline
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See, the thing about Autonomy is that rules, guidelines, etiquette and all that jazz don't hold much levity in the face of what people want to do. I admire that quality in the proper context.
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#85111 - 02/18/14 01:30 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
Khk Offline
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That was a "lambasting" ? Who is this "o9a" anyway?

Edited by Khk (02/18/14 01:35 AM)

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#85112 - 02/18/14 02:33 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Khk
That was a "lambasting" ?

Lambast - tell off, scold, reprimand - seems about right.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
Who is this "o9a" anyway?

You mean you don't know Richard Stirling, R. Parker, Scott Liddell, and the rest of the guys and gals in that band? You haven't heard of them?

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#85113 - 02/18/14 02:42 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SIN3]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
See, the thing about Autonomy is that rules, guidelines, etiquette and all that jazz don't hold much levity in the face of what people want to do.

True, but I don't know if the Order of Nine Angles fits into the 'autonomy' classification, given that it seems to have made its 'code of honor' the glue that holds the O9A together. It's logos, as someone called it.

The following quote may be relevant here -

 Quote:
One of the basic principles of the O9A, enshrined in the Code of Kindred Honour, is that of judging people for ourselves, individually, based on and only on a personal knowing. Thus, we who are O9A neither trust nor respect anyone unless we know them personally, in the real-world, and they have shown us, by their behaviour and by their deeds over a period of time, that they merit our trust and our respect.

This means that we most certainly do not trust nor respect some anonymous or anonymized person who writes about themselves and/or about the O9A via the medium of the internet. Thus we suspect them, and everything they write, be it via e-mail, or on some weblog or on some forum or on some website; even if – or especially if – they claim to be O9A and/or claim to be part of or to have founded some O9A nexion/group or claim to have done various sinister deeds. Thus we suspect them, and everything they write, even if they have been making such claims or writing about the O9A for years; even if what they write seems in line with the esoteric philosophy of the O9A; and even if we have been in contact with them for years via mechanisms such as e-mail or a written correspondence.

It's from the Advice For Neophytes Regarding The Order of Nine Angles text written by R. Parker.

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#85115 - 02/18/14 02:52 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
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Richard Stirling, R. Parker, Scott Liddell. Nope.

Who are they to tell anyone off, scold, reprimand?

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#85116 - 02/18/14 03:41 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Khk
Richard Stirling, R. Parker, Scott Liddell. Nope. Who are they to tell anyone off, scold, reprimand?

I guess if you knew them, or had heard of them, or even read what the likes of Mr Parker has written this past year, you might know the answer.

But that said, aren't you missing or ignoring the point? Which is the o9a 'code of kindred honor' and what it implies, as e.g. in the quote I posted here in a previous reply. For even though the O9A maybe 'leaderless' with people free and expected to change, adapt, refine, and develop everything O9A, it's bound together by that code. Or don't you accept that the basis of the O9A is that code?

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#85117 - 02/18/14 03:54 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
Khk Offline
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Posts: 398
Have any of those people met Ryan Anschauung? Face to face, I mean?



Edited by Khk (02/18/14 03:55 AM)

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#85118 - 02/18/14 03:55 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Posts: 398
Various sources on google say o9a was a joke, made up, not real. Is it?

Edited by Khk (02/18/14 03:58 AM)

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#85125 - 02/18/14 07:13 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Khk
Have any of those people met Ryan Anschauung?

Who is this Ryan A - other than a name used to post material on the internet?

FYI, Richard Stirling was a personal friend of Myatt, who first met him at a Combat 18 demo in London in 1998 and who went on to take over Myatt's Reichsfolk group following Myatt's conversion to Islam and Moult's decision to cease involvement with both Myatt's NSM and Reichsfolk. All this is documented, by the likes of Searchlight et al.

But name dropping side, you still haven't addressed what seems to me to be the real issue, which is the O9A's code of honor and what it implies in cyberspace and elsewhere.

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#85126 - 02/18/14 07:15 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Khk
Various sources on google say o9a was a joke, made up, not real.

I think sources on google says it all, doesn't it \:\)

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#85130 - 02/18/14 07:36 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Well I ask those two questions, because if your o9a posted things that aren't true, then so may have Ryan? if your o9a posted things that can't be verified, so may have Ryan? if your o9a alleges that it has kept many things back and should not be judged by what appears on the internet, so may have Ryan? If neither party , meaning your trio of people or Ryan has met the other, on what do they base their opinions? What is written on the internet alone? The thing you quoted warns precisely against accepting such things as are posted as the basis for truth, yet it's the very thing being used to "lambast". Pot. Kettle. Black?

It's all very strange.

Whatever o9a's code of honour is, I'm in no position to judge.


Edited by Khk (02/18/14 07:37 AM)

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#85131 - 02/18/14 07:38 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Posts: 398
Now searchlight I've heard of. Aren't they a hate magazine? Why would I believe anything THEY have to say, either?
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#85132 - 02/18/14 10:15 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
True, but I don't know if the Order of Nine Angles fits into the 'autonomy' classification, given that it seems to have made its 'code of honor' the glue that holds the O9A together. It's logos, as someone called it.


The MSS can be persuasive to the reader. The code of honor, I think is more useful to those that work together in the real. Doesn't have much to do with the appropriation of the texts which appears to be encouraged.

People can write to their heart's content but I don't think it has any real affect on people that apprehend it for their own uses. A criticism can be disregarded without even batting an eyelash.
_________________________
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#85134 - 02/18/14 10:50 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
kerriscott Offline
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Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Khk
Pot. Kettle. Black?

Two points. The first is that the people I named are the names of real people, personally known to individuals such as Myatt, with some having a documented reputation in the real world and all being findable if someone really wants to. Whereas Ryan A is just an internet name used by some person who wants or needs to stay anonymous. That's the difference. So the quip about 'black kettles' is irrelevant.

Now there's nothing wrong with wanting to remain anonymous, but insofar as the O9A is concerned the writings and claims of such a person have, ultimately, little or no worth.

The second point relates to the Order of Nine Angles code of honor. Anyone - anonymous or not - can call themselves O9A or claim to run an O9A nexion. No is bothered about that, about their anonymity, or even about what they write about the O9A. The problem arises when they do or write things contrary to the O9A code, since abiding by that code is what holds the O9A together and makes someone, whether they are anonymous or not, part of or associated with the Order of Nine Angles.

So if they flout that code, they're open to being - and should be - 'called out', lambasted, etc. Furthermore, it doesn't matter if those doing the lambasting are anonymous. It's the code violation that matters, the behavior or the words of the person in question.

Thus what is relevant is whether the person did flout the code. In the case we're discussing the evidence seems clear, especially given that he was considered to be the founder of what one academic called a 'flagship ONA nexion', publicly associated himself with the O9A, and publicly did not reject the O9A outright or distance himself from it, like a certain Mr Ford did some time ago.

So the only thing, it seems, there is to dispute is whether or not being O9A means abiding - in public and in private - by the O9A code of kindred honor.

This is all there really is to say about this matter, as far as I'm concerned, except to provide a link to the O9A code for those who might be interested. It's in Advice for Neophytes.

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#85135 - 02/18/14 10:51 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 1849
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
Richard Stirling, R. Parker, Scott Liddell. Nope.

Who are they to tell anyone off, scold, reprimand?


Oh Khk c'mon. R. Parker and Scott Liddell are pseudonyms of Myatt, himself. In case you don't know, David Myatt aka Anton Long is the highest authority in the ONA, a sort of a guru for all true ONA people. Just like Anton LaVey is a guru for all the so called LaVeyans. If you don't follow every word Myatt says, then you aint true ONA, just as if you don't listen to LaVey and Gilmore, you aint a true "LaVeyan".

This concerns someone who over years anonymously wrote a prodigious amount about the ONA, even though he had no real-life sinister deeds to his name, had never undertaken the rite of Internal Adept, had never learned esoteric chant with a group of cantors nor even physically constructed his own advanced Star Game.

You see... What are you doing here? Go play the Star Game or go to the woods and start chanting. La la la la na na na na la la la la....
_________________________
Anna Czereda
O9A Meme Cat

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#85137 - 02/18/14 01:31 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Czereda]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
This concerns someone who over years anonymously wrote a prodigious amount about the ONA, even though he had no real-life sinister deeds to his name, had never undertaken the rite of Internal Adept, had never learned esoteric chant with a group of cantors nor even physically constructed his own advanced Star Game.


To his credit, he has produced a hefty corpus of artwork and writing and expounding of his own personal reflections/experiences on the 7FW. And if I'm not mistaken isn't he the one who wrote a shit-ton on the Star Game and built several versions of it himself which were sold online? And if he does do 'real life' sinister deeds, why in his right mind would he blather about it on the internet?

Which is much more than can be said for a sockpuppet with no discernible identity or achievements, who for authority falls back on cryptic namedropping. Anyone with a keyboard can parrot the standard ONA jive about 'sinister-honour' from behind a plethora of pseudonyms, but it seems like whenever an initiate stops playing musical chairs and establishes a consistent online identity, they inevitably find themselves the target of eviler-than-thou fundamentalists who attempt to de-legitimize their credibility from the irrefutable position of anonymity. Even Beest has been a go-to punching bag from time to time.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#85142 - 02/18/14 11:22 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Czereda]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
R. Parker and Scott Liddell are pseudonyms of Myatt, himself.

It's amusing how many people make such assumptions rather than rationally debate the issues raised.

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
What are you doing here?

Ditto. What are any of us doing here?

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#85143 - 02/18/14 11:39 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: The Zebu]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
To his credit, he has produced a hefty corpus of artwork and writing and expounding of his own personal reflections/experiences on the 7FW.

True, but that doesn't affect the argument re the O9A code of honor.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Which is much more than can be said for a sockpuppet with no discernible identity or achievements, who for authority falls back on cryptic namedropping.

It's interesting that there are assumptions made about the person posting rather than a participation in a reasoned debate about the issues raised, as e.g. in this case whether or not being O9A implies abiding by their code of honor. In addition, as I mentioned in another reply:

 Quote:
If they flout that code, they're open to being - and should be - 'called out', lambasted, etc. Furthermore, it doesn't matter if those doing the lambasting are anonymous. It's the code violation that matters, the behavior or the words of the person in question.

But all that aside, I mentioned certain names in reply to what Khk said about anonymity. To differentiate 'real people' in the O9A - who have certain connections - from someone who is anonymous.

So are we going to debate the issues, or have more assumptions about the person posting and more name calling?

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#85146 - 02/19/14 02:38 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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I've looked more deeply into this.
Strangely, the only advanced version of o9a's star game that I can find is here: thetempleofthem.com Stargames by Ryan Anschauung In fact it seems this is the only advanced model and a 3D one that other people can use at that, anywhere on the web.
And again the only versions of o9a's tarot that I could find are from Richard Moult which is missing some cards? And here: thetempleofthem.com The Naos Deck o9a Tarot

He recounts doing this thetempleofthem.com external and this thetempleofthem.com internal,
has a chant sample on the same page and appears to have done an extraordinary amount for your o9a. And what are thetempleofthem.com these and thetempleofthem.com these?
Forgive me if your friends 'lambast' seems not only unsubstanted but, well, ungrateful?

Honor-wise Ryan has written an account of defending one of his friends against eight men with iron bars. Your o9a seems to like attacking its own. No offense, but I know who I'd rather have in my corner. Also, how old is this Myatt? Because Ryan claims to be thirty five.
Good or bad 'lambasts' can't be proven either way if those doing them don't know the person in question personally but you know what? He sure does seem to have a lot of friends. Is there some suggestion that he made all of this stuff up? For ten years? And remained anonymous? Why? What on earth for?

This really seems to be, no offense, an open shut case of stupid.

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#85147 - 02/19/14 02:57 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Khk
the only versions of o9a's tarot that I could find are from Richard Moult which is missing some cards? And here:

There are other sets, such as one by the Icelandic artist Joel H, some of which images are on the omega9alpha wordpress blog although the set is not publicly available. Here's one image from it -



 Originally Posted By: Khk
Forgive me if your friends 'lambast' seems not only unsubstanted but, well, ungrateful?

You seem to miss the point, which concerns publicly behaving in a mannercontrary to the O9A code.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
Honor-wise Ryan has written an account of defending one of his friends against eight men with iron bars

So an anonymous person makes some claim of having done something.

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#85148 - 02/19/14 03:02 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136

Instead of more argumentum ad hominem perhaps there can be a discussion about the issues, which are whether Ryan A did indeed transgress the O9A code of honor; whether at the time he was still associating himself with the O9A and thus was covered by that code; and whether the essence of the O9A - what makes someone O9A - is the code of kindred honor.

FYI, the O9A code - their 'law of the new aeon' - goes back to the 1980s; long before the appearance of Ryan and, some years later, of Chloe.

An article about it - The Code of The New Aeon: Warriors, Freedom and the Sinister Way - was even on the old O9A tripod site in the naughties, as anyone can find as copy is on the Internet Archive's 'wayback machine'.

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#85149 - 02/19/14 05:53 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
I still don't get how these guys have any moral right to pass judgement over someone they've never met. Just like your quote warns others not to. That just seems... I also don't get why you're treating him like your property? He is head of the Temple of THEM and seems to have moved beyond your o9a quite some time ago? I must be missing something. Is this whole situation just some sort of green eyed monster. Or did Ryan piss on youse guys crispies?
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#85150 - 02/19/14 06:07 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Well. IF what Ryan claims is true and he saved his friend from eight men with iron bars does this constitute honour to you? To anyone here?
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#85151 - 02/19/14 06:33 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Khk
I must be missing something.

Seems so. Ryan A knows what he did or didn't do in respect of what was mentioned in the O9A document I linked to. He - using whatever online identity he wants - can be as disingenuous as he likes, and pride himself on his 'cleverness', but in the end it's down to self honesty. Such self honesty, and the code of the O9A, are what are important, what matters, vis-a-vis the O9A.

If he - remaining anonymous - wants to continue to try and obfuscate the matter, then he does and will. Some may even be convinced by such obfuscation and such attempts at 'cleverness' and perhaps even by the argumentum ad hominem of others. But there are some who do possess certain occult skills and thus can esoterically discern - and who may have already so discerned - the truth of the matter, regardless of what he or others may write and transmit via a medium such as the internet.

There really isn't any more to be said, except to repeat the heart of the matter: self-honesty and the O9A code.

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#85154 - 02/19/14 10:30 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
Khk Offline
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Posts: 398
Yeah, I don't get it and you're not offering any answers to anything I've raised but your own dogged track. The way I see it Ryan has neither been caught doing nothing or caught doing something. I read that as he hasn't been caught unlike your trio. Do you have to be caught and identified to be o9a?
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#85156 - 02/19/14 10:40 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Posts: 398
What about you kerriscot, have you met Ryan face to face? Has anyone? Maybe he's just one more of Myatt's sock puppets if Czereda is right?

Edited by Khk (02/19/14 10:40 AM)

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#85157 - 02/19/14 11:05 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6847
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: kerriscott
which are whether Ryan A did indeed transgress the O9A code of honor; whether at the time he was still associating himself with the O9A and thus was covered by that code; and whether the essence of the O9A - what makes someone O9A - is the code of kindred honor.


Perhaps you might expound upon how you are able to determine whether A)He is bound to an Oath of Kindred Honor and B)Has broken this code.

Wouldn't this be a more personal matter? I'm not sure what there is to discuss in a group format here. The publishing date of a particular code, is moot. The code is only valuable to the people that take it up.

Again, getting back to Autonomy, if a person apprehends bits of writing and then decides the manner it will be used; wouldn't this also include having the ability to recognize or disregard a postured authority?
_________________________
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#85158 - 02/19/14 11:10 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SIN3]
Khk Offline
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Posts: 398
Yeah. SIN3 is right. Why would any self-respecting Satanist follow someone elses code? That's for religions. Besides that your code doesn't make any sense!
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#85160 - 02/19/14 11:53 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SIN3]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Perhaps you might expound upon how you are able to determine whether A)He is bound to an Oath of Kindred Honor and B)Has broken this code.

A. Those who are O9A are so bound by virtue of the fact that being O9A means being bound by the code.

B. According to the facts, as recounted in the document previously linked, there were several very public violations of that code.

So the question is whether or not he was claiming to be O9A or claiming to be associated with O9A. The facts pertaining to this are documented both publicly and privately. Publicly, and to give just one example, in the draft chapter of Monette's Mysticism in the 21st Century book widely distributed on the net prior to publication of that book.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
The code is only valuable to the people that take it up.

A good point. But the fact is that being O9A means accepting and abiding by the O9A code.

Of course, people can claim to be O9A or associated with the O9A and not accept or abide by that code, in which case they are imposters; part of the O9A-pretendu-crowd.

So either Ryan A was O9A - in which case he was bound by the code - or he was only pretending to be O9A for x number of years, in which case he was a charlatan, and in which case those who considered him some sort of 'O9A authority' were deceived.

But does any of this really matter? Most will will say it doesn't. But it matters to Ryan A, in terms of honesty. It matters in respect of who is, or is not, O9A.

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#85161 - 02/19/14 12:17 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Khk
Why would any self-respecting Satanist follow someone elses code?

Again you seem to miss the point. Acceptance of the code, and abiding by it, is an essential part of being O9A. One of the two marks that distinguish an O9A person from 'the others'.

Therefore, what other occultists say or believe about the matter - be they satanists or whatever - is irrelevant.

If someone doesn't want to accept and abide by that code then they're not O9A - and if they then claim they are O9A or associated with the O9A, they're a fraud. A some frauds do get exposed.

If someone doesn't want to accept and abide by that code, fair enough; there are plenty of alternatives - like the CoS, the ToS, or even just declaring they're their own type of satanist, or whatever.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
Maybe he's just one more of Myatt's sock puppets

It's laughable when people resort to claiming that person A or person B is Myatt in disguise. He really seems to have become a kind of bogeman to many occultists - popping up, and lurking, here, there, everywhere. He's on this forum, or that. He must have written this article, and those also.

Perhaps in your imagination Myatt even drew the Tarot image I posted in an earlier reply; perhaps he masqueraded as Chloe?

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#85162 - 02/19/14 12:20 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6847
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
B. According to the facts, as recounted in the document previously linked, there were several very public violations of that code.


If you are speaking of the .pdf you provided previously, it hardly speaks in facts. Nor is it a recognized authority, it seems.

 Quote:
The rules have remained unwritten because (a) they are transmitted aurally, one O9A person to another in the real world, and/or (b) our kind, or those with the nature to become of us, can and should be able to intuit what they are or be able to deduce them from the law of kindred honor, and which basic law (the Law of The New Aeon, the Logos of the Order of Nine Angles) is what binds those 'of the O9A' together whichever of the three O9A ways/models {1} they O9A


Emphasis on the obvious.
_________________________
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#85165 - 02/19/14 02:12 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SIN3]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
If you are speaking of the .pdf you provided previously, it hardly speaks in facts.

Sufficient was publicly and polemically presented for interested parties to ferret out more information and draw their own conclusions using their own judgment. The polemical presentation was intentional.

The O9A positively encourages dissent, internal and otherwise. What holds the diverse, often argumentative, O9A crowd together is the code. There's a quote to that effect in the chapter about the O9A in Monette's book.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Nor is it a recognized authority, it seems.

There is no recognized authority in the O9A - there is only the 'authority of individual judgment'.

In this matter of Ryan A - like I said previously - if someone flouts the O9A they're "open to being - and should be - 'called out', lambasted, etc. Furthermore, it doesn't matter if those doing the lambasting are anonymous. It's the code violation that matters, the behavior or the words of the person in question."

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Emphasis on the obvious.

Quite - obvious to some, but not to everyone, in my experience.

Anyway, enough has probably been said about the matter. Certainly, I've pointed out what I wanted to point out, and I'm sure most are as bored as I now am with the topic.

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#85167 - 02/19/14 04:26 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
Khk Offline
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Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Not yet. Did Ryan choose those words or did Monette? Does he say in this book you mention that he is o9a? His oath is available as well and it is this

My Ritual Self-Initiation

Time of Ritual: Sunset – 3 days before the full moon.

I performed the Rite indoors – both recording the Rite in writing and with a microphone and tape recorder.

I lay down my acausal Pentagram mat to symbolise the space as my Temple. I lit sandalwood and a native-wood incense (to inaugurate Australia in the Sinister Tradition) and placed them beside the mat. I located a white candle and placed this in the Temple and used a black candle to illuminate the bathroom. I ran a cold water bath to imitate as much as possible the conditions one might expect outdoors. I bathed for a number of minutes laying down at several points to immerse myself in the freezing water and using my hands to splash it onto my face and over my body. After getting out of the bath – I lay a towel on the ground and knelt upon it. I then rubbed the civet oil all over my body and my face.

I put on the black cloak I had procured especially for use in the seven-fold sinister way and made my way back toward the Temple. I lit the white candle and assumed a standing position. I meditated on the sigil for a few minutes. Following this I intoned the name of Noctulius three times. Following this I vibrated ‘suscipe, atazoth, munus quod tibi offerimus, memoriam recolentes Noctulius.’

I pricked my left thumb with a pin and used a quill feather to inscribe the symbol of vindex onto the parchment. I resumed my standing position in the acausal Pentagram and turned to each direction with the parchment held out, saying firmly ‘with this sign I seal my quest!’

I then tore the parchment in half. I lit one half and let it burn to ash – I had to drop it into the cold bath water having no receptacle to place the burning item in. I then tore the other half of the parchment into very small pieces and trying to simulate fast flowing water using my very limited environment, flushed it down the toilet bowl.

I left the temple and went outside to look at the near full moon in the sky. It is a cloudy night and only the telltale silver cauliflower lights behind the clouds show the presence of the moon. Nonetheless I raised my arms in exultation above my head and imagined silver filaments flowing from where the moon would be and filling me with energy. (It slipped my mind to imagine the energy flowing into the Earth afterwards, but I feel in a sense such a grounding was achieved). While gazing up at the thick dark clouds, I sensed the silver lights becoming brighter. I imagined that I could push away or tear the clouds open with my fingertips to reveal the moon and made the motions of doing so. To my surprise, the clouds parted for a number of seconds, and I saw the moon clearly for a brief moment. Then the clouds passed back over. I had received my sign. I looked to either side of the sky immediately afterward and marveled that it was simply thick dense cloud scarcely likely to let the moon through anywhere and smiled, feeling that ‘something’ had given me affirmation. I returned indoors and flushed the toilet again, this time the flow taking all the pieces of torn parchment away. I extinguished each of the candles with my forefinger and thumb. The ritual completed.


There is NO mention of loyalty to your kindred code or to o9a? "I seal my Quest!" doesn't seem like a contract with you but with Satan?

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#85170 - 02/19/14 05:22 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 1849
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
I then tore the other half of the parchment into very small pieces and trying to simulate fast flowing water using my very limited environment, flushed it down the toilet bowl... I returned indoors and flushed the toilet again, this time the flow taking all the pieces of torn parchment away... The ritual completed.


Dunno what to say...

Please, tell me you're joking.

Where is the wonder? Where is the awe? I feel so disenchanted. \:\(

Fist was right. You guys are a fucking joke.
_________________________
Anna Czereda
O9A Meme Cat

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#85179 - 02/20/14 01:14 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Khk
Not yet. Did Ryan choose those words or did Monette? Does he say in this book you mention that he is o9a?

Ryan A knows what he's claimed over the years - as do some others with whom he corresponded via e-mail. Also, like I said in an earlier reply, he also knows:
 Quote:
what he did or didn't do in respect of what was mentioned in the O9A document I linked to. He - using whatever online identity he wants - can be as disingenuous as he likes, and pride himself on his 'cleverness', but in the end it's down to self honesty

So by all means continue playing your online games and making your online denials. Enough people already know the truth of the matter, as others can discern that truth regardless of what anonymous you or anonymous others may write and transmit via a medium such as the internet.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
His oath is available as well and it is this...

That 'ritual' says all that really needs to be said about that anonymous person and his fictional internet persona.

Therefore, I rest my case (while LMFAO).

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#85180 - 02/20/14 02:47 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Czereda]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
You guys are a fucking joke.

Yes, the O9A-pretendu-crowd - aka marks/muppets - certainly are. But it's funny how some people don't - or cannot or will not - make that distinction, even though Anton Long wrote several years ago that:

 Quote:
some of these muppets may be useful, for a while. And useful to us, for example, in spreading (knowingly or unknowingly) the ONA mythos and ONA propaganda, or as in (unknowing to them) playing japes on and confusing mundanes, or as in diverting public attention from some of those of our kind who wish to operate in the shadows, or as in distributing our MSS and so perhaps inciting others of our sinister kind around the world to actually presence the dark by their living or by beginning the hard journey to wisdom by following our Seven Fold Sinister Way.

So while they serve a useful purpose we might choose not to publicly expose them for the frauds they are. And it is fun watching them, and – occasionally – toying with them, in public and in private. And fun observing how mundanes are often conned by these ‘ONA pretenders’ even though the very words these pretenders write and say betray them for who and what they really are.


Now, this may or may not be relevant in this 'Khk' instance \:\)




Edited by kerriscott (02/20/14 02:48 AM)

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#85181 - 02/20/14 03:52 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3147
I've been following the back and forth of this thread with a little smirk and a big bag of popcorn.

Allow me to share a few quotes.

 Originally Posted By: Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden: Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.


 Originally Posted By: Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden: Welcome to Fight Club. The first rule of Fight Club is: you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is: you DO NOT talk about Fight Club!
Warning, Spoiler:
Third rule of Fight Club: someone yells "stop!", goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule: only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule: one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule: No shirts, no shoes. Seventh rule: fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.


Get the hints ;\)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#85184 - 02/20/14 07:49 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Dimitri]
Siz Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 72
Loc: London, UK
I too have been enjoying the show, but I'm still in the dark here. I'm at pains to decifer who is the authority here? Both, one or neither?

I guess this is the reason why many at 600 are reluctant to bestow the organisation with credibility. Inspired by this thread I read through the O9A 'manifesto' and it does seem that other than as a recruitment facilitator internet fora are superfluous to the aims of the O9A. At least this thread has done nothing but obfuscate what should be a matter of fact.

Don't smite me, just an observation...
_________________________
Just a guy without a goatee, tattoos, or a raised-pinkie-and-index-finger combo.

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#85185 - 02/20/14 09:33 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Siz]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 1849
Loc: Poland
Dimitri, if I didn't know you, I would say you're a well of wisdom, but since I do know you, I will say only this: the pot calling the kettle black.

 Originally Posted By: Siz
I'm at pains to decipher who is the authority here? Both, one or neither?


There is no authority here. Every idiot can read about the ONA, write a blog, post about the ONA and say he is the ONA.

 Quote:
I guess this is the reason why many at 600 are reluctant to bestow the organization with credibility.


It's not an organization.

 Quote:
Inspired by this thread I read through the O9A 'manifesto' and it does seem that other than as a recruitment facilitator internet fora are superfluous to the aims of the O9A.


Manifesto? What are you talking about? Recruitment facilitator? You think that when someone comes here and posts something about the ONA, they do it to recruit candidates?

I think they do it to:
* have some interesting discussion,
* clear some misunderstanding,
* troll,
* stir up shit,
* make people believe their bullshit for shitz and giggles.
Take your pick.

 Quote:
At least this thread has done nothing but obfuscate what should be a matter of fact.


Indeed. Otherwise it would be no fun. After all, what do we have trolls for?

http://weknowmemes.com/2012/11/watch-your-step/



Edited by Czereda (02/20/14 09:41 AM)
_________________________
Anna Czereda
O9A Meme Cat

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#85187 - 02/20/14 10:27 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6847
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: kerriscott

A. Those who are O9A are so bound by virtue of the fact that being O9A means being bound by the code.


Ok, let's go with that. In theory, if he's bound to the code it may account for some of the things he's written on his public blogs to throw people off the track. As Dimi pointed out, You don't talk about fight club.

 Quote:

B. According to the facts, as recounted in the document previously linked, there were several very public violations of that code.



When it comes to ONA/O9A you can't really speak in facts. If, the internet is just a communication conduit, then you would have to be part of group in person, to determine the facts. Much like an Oath taken by a family, gang, etc. There's keeping up appearances and the dangers of getting your teeth knocked out if you walk over the line.


 Quote:

A good point. But the fact is that being O9A means accepting and abiding by the O9A code.


The code for show or the inner-code? Where has Ryan claimed to have taken up this published code and thereby becoming 'O9A' by the net standard?

 Quote:


Of course, people can claim to be O9A or associated with the O9A and not accept or abide by that code, in which case they are imposters; part of the O9A-pretendu-crowd.


As claimed by many would-be o9A on the netz that could also be the pretendu crowd, right?

 Quote:


So either Ryan A was O9A - in which case he was bound by the code - or he was only pretending to be O9A for x number of years, in which case he was a charlatan, and in which case those who considered him some sort of 'O9A authority' were deceived.[/quote

Maybe, just maybe... He was given merit by his readers because he did something of his own, something creative with it? Maybe thumbing his nose at any 'authority', gave him street cred on the Net.

[quote]
But does any of this really matter? Most will will say it doesn't. But it matters to Ryan A, in terms of honesty. It matters in respect of who is, or is not, O9A.



Says you. Maybe you're a Ryan sock just testing the waters here. Anything is possible.
_________________________
SINJONES.com

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#85188 - 02/20/14 10:41 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Dimitri]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
you DO NOT talk about Fight Club

That's just so passé. Not to mention plebal.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Get the hints

Hint: Eleusinian Mysteries anyone? But maybe I'm on the wrong forum \:\)

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#85189 - 02/20/14 10:48 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Siz]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Siz
I'm still in the dark here.

May I suggest you read the following three items, and then decide for yourself about the Order of Nine Angles -

1. http://omega9alpha.wordpress.com/2014/01/23/perusing-the-seven-fold-way-2/

2. http://omega9alpha.wordpress.com/advice-for-neophytes/

3. http://omega9alpha.wordpress.com/o9a-authority/

You may well conclude the O9A: (i) a joke; (ii) bunk; (iii) doesn't exist; (iv) whatever.

Your call.

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#85190 - 02/20/14 10:56 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SIN3]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
As Dimi pointed out, You don't talk about fight club.

I refer you to my reply to him, although I have some doubts as to whether it will be understood.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
then you would have to be part of group in person, to determine the facts.

Very perspicacious. Almost all of what 'is here' is propaganda, or incitement, or playing games (mostly for fun).

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Anything is possible.

I get the distinct feeling that you - at least - understand. Is there therefore any more need for words, here?





Edited by kerriscott (02/20/14 10:59 AM)
Edit Reason: typo

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#85192 - 02/20/14 11:20 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Czereda]
Siz Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 72
Loc: London, UK
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Manifesto? What are you talking about?
The Labyrinthos Mythologicus is the text to which I refer. What else is it if not a manifesto? This is the authorised text, right? What better text to try to understand what these people are talking about? I'd be happy to peruse your unofficial recommendations...

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
It's not an organization.
So what entity was it that 'authorised' the publication of Labyrinthos Mythologicus?
They are, evidently, at least organised enough to argue at length about who is a member and who isn't...
_________________________
Just a guy without a goatee, tattoos, or a raised-pinkie-and-index-finger combo.

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#85193 - 02/20/14 12:00 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
Siz Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 72
Loc: London, UK
 Originally Posted By: kerriscott
May I suggest you read the following three items, and then decide for yourself about the Order of Nine Angles -

1. http://omega9alpha.wordpress.com/2014/01/23/perusing-the-seven-fold-way-2/

2. http://omega9alpha.wordpress.com/advice-for-neophytes/

3. http://omega9alpha.wordpress.com/o9a-authority/
Thank you kerriscott. I'd read some of that linked from your previous posts. As mentioned above, I've also been reading the Labyrinthos Mythologicus which seems like a decent resource.

I'm just peering through the window really, with no other interest than... interest.

 Originally Posted By: kerriscott
You may well conclude the O9A: (i) a joke; (ii) bunk; (iii) doesn't exist; (iv) whatever.

Your call.
No, I cannot make up my mind. At face value it seems a very rewarding undertaking if done by the book (though I understand that you're encouraged to question 'the book'). But I can't help thinking that the whole process is an exercise in ego masturbation - however real the benefits of that may be.

I'm lazy by nature so this whole 'work at it' approach just doesn't work for me. This Mundane has more... Earthly fish to fry. But knock yourselves out - whatever lights your ritual candle...


Edited by Siz (02/20/14 12:50 PM)
_________________________
Just a guy without a goatee, tattoos, or a raised-pinkie-and-index-finger combo.

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#85194 - 02/20/14 12:47 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6847
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
I get the distinct feeling that you - at least - understand. Is there therefore any more need for words, here?


Between you and I? No. I wasn't actually posting for your benefit, you see.
_________________________
SINJONES.com

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#85198 - 02/20/14 04:11 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
As funny as it sounds kerriscot It sounds like your o9a lost control of your muppet. Meaning your o9a tried to use Ryan A and Ryan A ended up using them. It's like a bad eighties spy drama or the excellent (IMHO) Bourne series with Matt Damon with one of your agents going rogue.

Edited by Khk (02/20/14 05:01 PM)

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#85199 - 02/20/14 04:47 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Siz]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 1849
Loc: Poland
 Originally Posted By: Kerriscott
Now, this may or may not be relevant in this 'Khk' instance.


And in your instance too. You're anonymous, you can be a pretender too. ;\)

If someone did something really sinister like killing or robbing someone, how should he prove it? By recording the crime, taking pictures?

Ring ring...Who's that?
Oh hi Lianna. Ryan speaking. I've just killed some douchebag, stabbed him nine times in the chest, seven times in his belly and slit his throat. I have a couple of nice photos for you. You will love it. I'll email them to you in a minute so you can publish them on your blog.
Oh that's great Ryan. I have no doubts now you're our kind. I will tell Myatt. He'll be happy. By the way, expect to see the cops tomorrow. Good night.
\:\)

 Originally Posted By: Siz
They are, evidently, at least organised enough to argue at length about who is a member and who isn't...


Perhaps, but it's not an organization like the Church of Satan or the Temple of Set. It's the culture. Anybody can claim to belong to it. And since there is no list of registered members, how can you know who is a true "member" and who is a fake "member"? Myatt withdrew from the ONA, anyway, the ONA has never had an official leader. So who is the authority here? Lianna? Kerriscott? Ryan? Khk? Chloe? Jack?

 Quote:
The Labyrinthos Mythologicus... What better text to try to understand what these people are talking about? I'd be happy to peruse your unofficial recommendations...


Sure. Here is one for you. Knock yourself out.
How to Play Bullshit
_________________________
Anna Czereda
O9A Meme Cat

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#85203 - 02/20/14 05:14 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Czereda]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Person A: You keep missing the point!

Person B: Because you supplied me with curved fucking darts!

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#85211 - 02/20/14 11:19 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Czereda]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
You're anonymous, you can be a pretender too.

True.

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
it's not an organization like the Church of Satan or the Temple of Set. It's the culture

Indeed - the O9A is more akin to an esoteric 'culture of pathei-mathos' which has its own particular ethos. It's a changing, evolving, culture - some aspects of which some people may find useful, or interesting, or inspiring, and which those people can add to as a result of their own esoteric pathei-mathos.

The ethos of this particular culture derives from the O9A code of honor, while its esotericism is most evident in the anados of the seven fold way.

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
how can you know who is a true "member" and who is a fake "member"? Myatt withdrew from the ONA, anyway, the ONA has never had an official leader. So who is the authority here?

No one person is 'the authority'. As previously mentioned, there is the principle of individual judgment. Everybody makes their own call; they judge each matter for themselves.

As, e.g., in the matter of Ryan A. It's up to them - if they're interested - to decide what they make of it, based on the available info and using their own occult skills.

Available info include such things as his responses here, the 'ritual' he posted, his past actions (some of which were mentioned in the polemical doc there's a link to), and his various writings. It's up to them to judge, e.g., the veracity of what Monette wrote in the draft O9A chapter circulated a year or so ago.

They might, for instance, find a statement by Ryan such as "your o9a tried to use Ryan A and Ryan A ended up using them" a useful indicator. Also, the more he responds, in his way, the more potentially useful indicators there are.

It's their call, not mine.

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#85215 - 02/21/14 04:37 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Are you saying Ryan has acted amorally?
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#85227 - 02/21/14 03:42 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 1849
Loc: Poland
 Originally Posted By: kerriscott
They might, for instance, find a statement by Ryan such as "your o9a tried to use Ryan A and Ryan A ended up using them" a useful indicator.


Of course, a potential puppet turned out to be a puppet master. ;\)

 Originally Posted By: Khk
Are you saying Ryan has acted amorally?


Well... aren't ONA folks supposed to be amoral?
_________________________
Anna Czereda
O9A Meme Cat

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#85235 - 02/22/14 03:06 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Czereda]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
aren't ONA folks supposed to be amoral?

Yes, amoral in respect of mundanes. But honorable in respect of O9A people. That's the essence of the O9A code.

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
how can you know who is a true "member" and who is a fake "member"?

By whether or not they abide by - live by - the O9A code. As revealed in their words and deeds.

In respect of deciding how to judge the value of writings about the O9A found on the net and purporting to be by an O9A person, the following might (or might not) be of interest. It's from the essay Some Advice For Neophytes Regarding The Order of Nine Angles.

 Quote:
While it is incumbent upon the neophyte to judge for themselves the value and veracity of such information about the O9A as they may find via the medium of the internet, the following advice may be helpful: that the writings of someone who has followed and practised all three O9A ways in the real world for over four decades – the pseudonymous Anton Long – contain useful and valuable esoteric information, advice, and insights. As someone, not involved with the O9A, wrote in 2011, in respect of such writings:

"[He wrote his] stuff while actively engaged in many of the activities he philosophized, from violence, to insight roles, to subversion to Satanism (under his various pseudo-names). They are writings born of a man engaging in practical deeds... Without the practical experience to go with it, it’s just words on a page. Like most LHP materials. Or to put it in a different context, it’s like trying to truly grasp Musashi’s Book of Five Rings, when never having studied a martial art (particularly a sword art) or been in a fight which had the potential to be fatal. Sure the words may bounce around in your head, but without that direct experience you’ll never truly get them because they are born of, and written for a mindset that can only be acquired by direct experience. Those that hate ‘doing’ almost always feel threatened by such things because one can’t just sit in their house and declare themselves an expert without enormous sacrifice and actual attainment."


I do believe the quote beginning "[He wrote his] stuff while actively engaged..." is from an old thread on this very forum.




Edited by kerriscott (02/22/14 03:07 AM)

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#85249 - 02/22/14 08:11 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Amoral. Adjective,

Having no moral quality; nonmoral without moral standards or principles. Amoral is often wrongly used where immoral is meant. Immoral is properly used to talk about the breaking of moral rules, amoral about people who have no moral code or about places or situations where moral considerations do not apply.

If it is Right to be amoral to Mundanes and Wrong to be amoral to your o9a, then is it amoral to care for the considerations of either side? Can it be said that the amoral know what is right and what is wrong, they just don't care?

Examples of AMORAL

He is an amoral, selfish person pursuing his own goals.
a cynical and amoral way of competing for business.

I remember Ryan raising issues about the use of Chaos within the Illuminates of Thanateros or your o9a where Chaos seemed to be selectively applied not unleashed in its raw state so as not to actually exhibit chaos but controlled chaos so it did not rip the very groups trying to use it apart. I think Amorality, Evil and Chaos all fall under this category of being selectively used by those afraid to actually use the energy spoken of and whom seem horrified when it is? Which signals that their use is proprietary for the aims of preserving something human not inhuman. These forces are part of THEM, the Dark Ones. None of Whom care for humans and their ways and which Ryan and his Temple appear to follow.

Yet their own membership seems solid as a rock including several o9a groups, national socialism, anarchy, freethinkers, publishers, writers, artists and their own sub-groups called tendrils and they appear to treat each other with a different code called the In Supra Solidarity code or I.S.S.

It's difficult to say whether he is amoral or just has a code you don't understand.
It is also very difficult to understand why your o9a are so concerned with what Ryan does or doesn't do. You've made claims about him you can't substantiate and for which he has provided evidence no more compelling than any of your own as internet shared. You now claim he must be in physical contact with others in o9a to be a member, that he is using the command to be amoral incorrectly, that he has transgressed a code that makes no sense and to which he has never issued any formal contract. You're making this up as you go along aren't you?
How about you worry less about what others are doing and concentrate on your own business?
You can't control the forces you are invoking. They'll eat you alive.

As a side note: to my knowledge, Ryan has never acknowledged the term or classification of mundanes.


Edited by Khk (02/22/14 08:23 PM)

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#85261 - 02/22/14 10:03 PM Law of the New Aeon [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
A few things.

o9a writes:

Warriors, Freedom and the Sinister Way

[i]One of the primary aims of the ONA is to produce a new type of human being. This new human being will - compared to individuals at present - be a more evolved individual who fulfills some of the promise latent within us, as a species. The Seven-Fold Way is one means whereby such a new individual can be produced. This individual would thus be an Adept: someone with a Destiny who understands wyrd, that is, Aeonic processes and change. Hence, this individual will seek, through their lives, their work, their actions, to create new ways of living, new communities, new societies, new possibilities.
This new individual will represent, and indeed be, a new archetype. The basis for this new archetype is the “thinking warrior”: an individual who, being self-disciplined, can and does use their own personal judgement and who thus does not rely on the concepts, ideas, ways, forms, theories, laws, ethics, of others, and who is unswayed and unswayable by those forces which governments, politicians, the Media, religions, and Institutions in general, use to try and persuade and manipulate and control people. In essence, this new individual will use their will to control and change themselves.
Thus, this new individual - this new human type - will be beyond “individuation” and truely free. They will take responsibility for themselves, and those they have given a personal pledge of loyalty to, and not allow anyone to take this self-responsibility away. In brief, they would rather die - if necessary by their own hand - than have to submit to anyone, or allow anyone to control them, just as, if anyone or any Institution tries to confine them or control them, they would rebel, and fight to obtain their personal freedom.
Their is one thing and one thing alone which can produce such individuals: personal honour. True freedom, and true strength, arise when a person abides by a Code of Honour. The only law that this new individual will recognize and accept is the law of personal honour. The law of the New Aeon is the law of personal honour.
The revolution which is necessary will be in part a revolution of ideals, with the ideal of personal honour the catalyst necessary to create a New Aeon from the destruction of the old. The law of honour means an end to the tyranny of governments; an end to all the old ideas of the old repressive Aeon.
In the simple sense, honour is a manifestation, a presencing, of those evolutionary energies which can change us into a higher type, a new species of human being. With honour - and the laws deriving from it - new societies, and ways of life, can and will be created which will transform this planet, and enable us to take the next great leap forward in our evolution: the exploration, conquest and settlement of Outer Space.


Now perhaps later, it was ammended because there is no mention whatsoever of your fictitious alliance with others as part of the o9a code.


[ii] Anton Long writes to Ryan:

27th Jan 2009


Herewith, as per my open message on the DM group, is a personal
message for you:

<!--begin message-->
Esoterically, you are quite correct and your comments perceptive, and what you expressed is what is required for the inner ONA to continue and achieve its long-term goals.

Meanwhile, the outer forms also continue, presencing through their change and in their varying ways, what is also required, exoterically.

But it is the inner aspect whose continuing is important – indeed vital - and which in a quite magickal way guides and/or brings-into-being the rest while remaining essentially hidden and, on certain matters, quiet. For not everything has to be said or written about or discussed, in public.

Thus do we continue essentially quietly, over the centuries, with the most important esoteric matter of guiding a few individuals, individually and personally, from Initiate to Internal Adept, and beyond, according to our Way, our means, our Tradition, which will not in its esoteric essence, change. This guidance, of course, and as you know, takes years, and, being directly personal, requires no outer manifestation, in terms of public words.

Other individuals, other groups, will arise; come and go; many of these will change, adopt variations of our Way; many - most, if not all - will not last long, in Aeonic terms. Some of these will be "of us", exoterically, because they will be aiding our aims. But the inner aspect of the Order - our essence - will endure, quietly, secretly, as
it has done for quite some causal Time, although now, of course, there are a few more involved, as in future causal times there will be even more, as those personally guided, in their turn, guide others.

You, it seems, have the perception, the abilities, to understand, the difference between this outer aspect and the inner, and why this is never really, publicly, expressed, and why there is therefore no need for those of this inner aspect to publicly engage in disputes with others who, knowingly or otherwise, are aiding our aims. Inner essence
is not the same as some causal form one individual might assume in order to achieve some causal aim, just as the inner essence of the Order will remain while those who understand continue with the task of long-term personal guidance.

Your work is valuable, indeed necessary, and thus, quietly - as it has always been - you have become part of this inner aspect.
<--end message--!>
- taken from Abyssal by the Black Glyph Society.

o9a themselves in several of their own publications regard the Temple of THEM as an "ONA Nexion" and as embodying a second esoteric type of Temple or as being inspired by o9a writings. Such as in ONA in Historical and Esoteric Context They have further been happy to trot out THEM's name when seeking to impress with numbers or convince others of their world-wide presence.


[iii] Sinister Moon = Lianna = DarkLogos tries to cite THEM among o9a's Nexions here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AOrder_of_Nine_Angles

And while it is known that THEM have and have not regarded themselves as a Nexion of your o9a, just as your o9a have and have not regarded THEM as a Nexion of your o9a - each on their own selective terms to suit selective agenda - your trio are condemning Ryan for claiming association with the o9a? Again sir I say to you, Pot. Kettle. Black.
So is he a puppet in which case he is outside of the o9a in which case he has been lead to believe he is o9a and is in fact not, in which case his culpability in believing himself to claim himself o9a is understandable but which falls under Entrapment and to which he cannot be held accountable:
Or, is he o9a in which case following such propaganda as this:
Warriors, Freedom and the Sinister Way he has become something you have lost control of and now realize you didn't actually want, an amoral frankenstein?

[iv] When interviewed by WSA 352 THEM said this.

4. 352: We know the Temple of THEM is ONA, but as a Sinister Organization in itself, it is… as it sometimes states – different. In what way?
+0+ The Temple of THEM is not actually an ONA Nexion.  It called itself a Nexion to reinvigorate the ONA and give the impression of fresh blood to save it from stagnating during some dark years it was losing its vigour. Prior to you, in fact. But its members were either so inspired by, taught via, or involved with the Order in varying degrees, including respect and homage for it, that it would be hard to call it anything else. As the Order has said – we are “of the ONA” and we recognize that.
As for the second part of your question – one need only read our mss to get an impression of how different THEM are from the ONA. THEM openly invite viewpoints that conflict with our own to provide dialectic – since the point is not that people accept what we’ve written, but accept that what is written anywhere is a viewpoint – and should be recognized in that context.  We directly oppose the ONA’s Tradition in some of our manuscripts – but more importantly – the insights and secrets we share about the ONA’s form, function and methodology were not given to us by the ONA – i.e. they did not teach us how to understand them – in fact, the put all manner of obstacles in our way to doing so.  Despite this, THEM teaches about Mythos, Forms and Abstractions using the ONA as a prime example – to allow others to perceive what is behind the illusions of the world and its Magian masters – thus destabilizing the infrastructure of the Authorities on the outside just as Satanic Alchemy destabilizes it on the inside. We are not sanctioned by the ONA as much as tolerated – and toleration is a necessary evil – because THEM will voice itself whether the Order wants it to or not. THEM has also expanded much of the Septenary Tradition not only via its own works or preservation of all former ONA mss – but via the dialectic it has posed, prompting answers to difficult questions from the Order.
The crux is this – if ONA had not been so hard to get answers from, so secretive, silent on matters, and more willing to talk – we would not have had to de-construct it brick by brick to see how it worked. I should point out that where we found weak points – we have always endeavored to patch them up.  So in some way, ONA’s silence has brought life to a new science by necessity; Narrative Magic.


Ryan appears to have taken onboard what your o9a have said about being amoral, evil, ruthless to create a new individual but your o9a appears to have later added this confusing subsection about having to be in proximity to the others, having completed this and that task, which it is doubtful hardly any of the existing nexions online have since I see no other proof of stargames and a picture from a tarot you claim is not for public viewing. In fact, there is only a few references to the connection between THEM and o9a anywhere - yet your o9a seems to have championed the group calling themselves WSA352 for many years and very intimately despite this group now claiming it too was a fake. Your o9a also appears to have distanced itself from this same organization claiming it too was a puppet.

You also claim that Ryan chose to represent the Temple of THEM as a flagship nexion of your o9a but have provided no proof for this accusation. Did Monette choose those words write that description or did Ryan? Proof please.

I think your organization needs to rethink its "Code". You're like bitter greedy old men reminiscing about their self-importance in wars long gone and sneering at the children that pass by your porch.


Edited by Khk (02/22/14 10:16 PM)

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#85263 - 02/22/14 10:57 PM Re: Law of the New Aeon [Re: Khk]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Khk
[Your] o9a seems to have championed the group calling themselves WSA352 for many years and very intimately despite this group now claiming it too was a fake.


For the sake of public record keeping:

As early as mid 2008 I was having an off the record discussion with my liaison DarkLogos on the "matter" of the "WSA." In this conversation I gave DL the agenda [the agenda of this so called WSA352] in clear plain English. The agenda was simple and written out just like this: ONA = Apple. WSA = iPod. Note: at the time iPod was the in thing and iPhone had not become big yet.

DL understood and we went with it. To explain: ONA is like Appli Inc, which makes Traditional computer stuff. There was a time when Apple was having problems with its market. Just as we know that before 2008 ONA was pretty quite. When iPod came out, it opened up a new market for Apple. iPod itself is not a Traditional computer thing Apple is known to make. It simply opened up new markets and afterwards leads people to the actual Traditional stuff Apple makes.

The same with this WSA thing. It was a gimmick. We told this to DL 6 years ago. The agenda is to use WSA as ONA's iPod. It's odd, it's not traditional, its just a publicity stunt. The end objective is to generate interest in ONA, and lead people to the actual Traditional stuff of ONA.

This has been actualized. So this WSA thing is of no further use or worth. Lord knows I try to tell people in and out of ONA every chance I get to not believe what is written in public online.

Same shit goes with the 3 year internet battle between WSA and Blackwood: publicity stunt and business. In private, me and Tom got along fine, and I tell him that I don't mean anything I say in public and that it's all Business we both can profit from. He understood. The objective again was to generate third party talk, curiosity, and interesting, first in "WSA" which then would lead people to ONA, as per the agenda. Six years later... done & done.

DL knew the supposed WSA was fake... and so do most long time users here for the record LOL. There is a lesson here somewhere: never trust anything written and said in Public. What is to be considered is what is said in private via Diplomatic Channels between Associates [partners].


Edited by Caladrius (02/22/14 11:00 PM)
_________________________
Chloe 352

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#85267 - 02/23/14 01:30 AM Re: Law of the New Aeon [Re: Caladrius]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Thank you Caladrius. Unfortunately, all parties having now denuded their online expressions as honourable truths and equally possible to be pure mythos (and having gloated about tricking others through japes and jokes at their expense) suffer from the fate of the habitual liar. It is no longer possible to discern who is telling the truth and when. Thus frank admissions of this or that being fake (or real for that matter) are no indication of what is really happening behind the scenes as you say. The cry-wolf axiom is in full effect here.

While WSA 352 may have not been the physical specimen it claimed to be it was nonetheless an act of black magic that inspired a great many forms into being; being the point, of magic altogether.

Quoting Directive A-1 of the Temple of THEM: Unfortunately, or rather as a result of, diffused consciousness that interferes with one’s causal ability to maintain a solid form to others; being known as a shape-shifter of some skill and of course, revealing the disarming secrets of one’s trade, carries with it the burden of implicit suspicious mistrust. Members have reported side-effects of our ‘Grand Science’ with members of their inner Sinisterion due to able demonstrations of Chameleonization openly – thus revealing how adept they are at controlling what people see and witness of them. This has lead to issues of instability, esp in magical relationships, where one may say the illusions of the causal are experienced withdrawn and the frightening (from their point of view) essence beyond projection revealed. Thus Emily no longer sees John, but a sinister grinning trickster, a dark, mysterious and cunning master of illusion who sends her projections back to her. This has the effect of causing people to be perpetually unsure whether a shifter is sincere or merely playing another role: An unavoidable Sinister Aspect of THEM’s Work.

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#85269 - 02/23/14 02:05 AM Re: Law of the New Aeon [Re: Khk]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Khk
Unfortunately, all parties having now denuded their online expressions as honourable truths and equally possible to be pure mythos (and having gloated about tricking others through japes and jokes at their expense) suffer from the fate of the habitual liar. It is no longer possible to discern who is telling the truth and when. Thus frank admissions of this or that being fake (or real for that matter) are no indication of what is really happening behind the scenes as you say. The cry-wolf axiom is in full effect here.


Point taken and understood \:\)

It's easy to get caught up in the maze of bullshit, lies, myths, propaganda, japes, facts [if there be any], etc.

There is a saying in English that goes: "Actions speak louder than words."

In Buddhism, we have a corollary to that saying, which goes: "Vipaka [fruit of action] speaks louder than action [kamma]." For example, a fool will always manifest foolish End Results. An apple tree will always grow apples \:\) You can judge a tree and a person by the Fruit they bare [kamma-vipaka].

And so, as a Buddhism, I pay no attention to what is said, what has been said, and what can ever be said, by any parties; online, in public, or in private. What I pay attention to personally are the end results or Vipaka that such parties manifest. For, although words may lie, the end results of a person don't.

I personally judge a person's Honour not by what they can say or claim in public or in private, but on the Fruit of their actions. You see? For example if I have honour and loyalty for o9a or a person, it must be visible as a phenomenon [dhamma] in my action and in the Fruit of my actions. And if a person honours me, I must also be able to see it in their Vipaka: an Honourable person bares honourable [ariya] fruit [vipaka].

If parties in o9a jape, lie, cheat, make stories up, misinform, etc, it's best for the sake of one's sanity to pay attention to the End Results of such things said.

In the end there are generally two types of people in o9a, and such types can be judged by the actions and End Result of such person's actions. The two types are: 1) those who serve their own Self-Interest or the interest of their own "nexion;" or their own agendas or 2) those who serve the ONA's interest and it's agendas.

Although I fabricated the WSA - told stories, lied, etc - I hope that the few in o9a who matter are able to judge the Fruit of 6 years of my actions to determine which of the two types of person I am.

 Quote:

While WSA 352 may have not been the physical specimen it claimed to be it was nonetheless an act of black magic that inspired a great many forms into being; being the point, of magic altogether.


Thank you KHK; you see it like I do!


Edited by Caladrius (02/23/14 02:08 AM)
_________________________
Chloe 352

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#85270 - 02/23/14 02:15 AM Re: Law of the New Aeon [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Now o9a wishes to claim that DarkLogos, Chloe and Ryan are not and have never been members of o9a and urges others not to trust them or their writings. Interestingly o9a appears to have blamed Ryan, Chloe among others for some apparent 'ruination' of the o9a because they did or didn't do this or that or revealed too much in their written works. While a separate article released by them claims that o9a does not need to be defended and that the words and deeds of others can do nothing to stop or change the o9a. Yet here they are deathly afraid that someone might gain something insightful or useful from Chloe and Ryan's ideas instead of their own that somehow places the future of the o9a in grave jeopardy.

o9a openly admits to using others as muppets and marks but refuses to acknowledge its own ineptness and responsibility in things going sour for it because of such tactics and because it couldn't predict or handle the fallout?

So we return to the original questions: who are these trio who are supposed to be amoral to morally judge someone they've never met, make unsubstantiated claims and stand on thrones of cloud like everybody else? Who is this "o9a"?

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#85271 - 02/23/14 02:23 AM Re: Law of the New Aeon [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
I believe Ryan falls under the first classification Caladrius, 1) those who serve their own Self-Interest or the interest of their own "nexion.
In the case of Black Magic and Form, whilst the End Results may be what is paid attention to, as organisms we represent minor aspects of the formation of the greater form. We compete then for space and light and dominance, which is what all of this comes down to: the tallest, the highest, the strongest. This is the function of argument.
Naturally however some of us are drawn to defend that which we believe in, for better or worse.


Edited by Khk (02/23/14 02:25 AM)

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#85276 - 02/23/14 10:03 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Khk
Having no moral quality; nonmoral without moral standards or principles. Amoral is often wrongly used where immoral is meant.

This really is indicative of the intellectual level of the debate, as also of much else.

FYI, etymologically amoral also imputes the sense of being beyond (or not to be characterized as) 'the good or the bad' given the English use of the prefix a- from the 17th century on, and given the meaning of that prefix in classical Greek (and also BTW) in Latin, which is of 'without', 'beyond', etcetera.

Thus one has 'not be characterized as either good or bad' in respect of mundanes, but honorable in respect of O9A people. With the obvious conclusion that there are certain rules re O9A people and no rules - only the assessment or judgment of the individual re what is good or bad - in regard to mundanes (non-O9A people).

That this has to pointed out to someone who has written voluminousness writings about the O9A over many years is certainly indicative.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
Anton Long writes to Ryan

1. Given that you have never met AL face to face this has no value. It's just one e-mail communication from one anonymous individual to another anonymous individual.

2. Even were it from AL - directly or sent via a third party - perhaps you didn't read the following:

 Quote:
"Such anonymous or anonymized persons – being unknown to us and untrusted by us – are privately not regarded as one of us which means that – being how we sometimes are or can be sly and mischievous – we might via what is privately or publicly written to or about them via a medium such as the internet – give them and others the impression that we do 'respect' and 'trust' them and do 'value' their writings/waffle; and an impression given often as a means of providing them the opportunity to reveal themselves or provide documented, real-world, evidence of their claims regarding sinister deeds or their claims regarding having done such O9A things as various Insight Roles, or mastered Esoteric Chant/The Star Game, or done the Internal Adept rite. Yet, unless and until they breach the unwritten rules of our 'internet etiquette' or otherwise flout the Code of Kindred Honour, we do accord them the benefit of the doubt and thus publicly treat them as possibly, just possibly, 'being of, or potentially being of, our kind'.

For, even if they are pretenders, they may serve a useful purpose; as in, for example, forming an unwitting part of the Labyrinthos Mythologicus and thus being a test of the perspicacity of neophytes and others."


Another useful indicator follows:

 Originally Posted By: Khk
Now o9a wishes to claim that DarkLogos, Chloe and Ryan are not and have never been members of o9a and urges others not to trust them or their writings.

This is quite amusing.

For you obviously have not understood (or have ignored) a fundamental axiom of the Order of Nine Angles, obvious from the 1980s on and even given a descriptive term in the naughties - labyrinthos mythologicus.

You obviously have not understood (or have ignored) another fundamental axiom of the Order of Nine Angles - of the O9A encouraging individuals to judge things, and people, for themselves.

You obviously have not understood (or have ignored) yet another fundamental axiom of the Order of Nine Angles - the authority of individual judgment. That is the only authority that matters for those who are O9A. Why this is even mentioned in posts on this thread.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
here they are deathly afraid that someone might gain something insightful or useful from Chloe and Ryan's ideas

This is also quite amusing. Yes indeed - timorously afraid of what some anonymous person writes on the internet or circulates via e-mail or puts in some self-published book.
Yes indeed - afraid of ideas in general.

For we all know that the O9A has, since its inception, been deathly afraid that someone might gain something insightful or useful from the ideas and writings of LaVey, the Temple of Set, Michael Ford, 'Uncle Tom Cobley and all'.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
you're like bitter greedy old men reminiscing about their self-importance in wars long gone and sneering at the children that pass by your porch

That is yet another "useful indicator" in the matter of others judging, for themselves, the individual behind the anonymous Ryan A character.

 Originally Posted By: Khk
Who is this "o9a"?

O9A 101:

a) The O9A is the esoteric philosophy of Anton Long, as manifest in his writings between 1984 and 2001.
b) Being O9A means living by the Code of Kindred Honour (aka the Law of Kindred-Honour aka The Logos of the Order of Nine Angles aka the Sinister Code, aka the Law of The New Aeon) and striving to follow one of the three O9A Ways.
c) The three O9A ways are the initiatory hermetic Seven Fold Way; the Way of the Drecc and the Niner; the Way of the Rounwytha.
d) These three ways are practical realizations of the esoteric philosophy of Anton Long.

As a matter of record, I'll quote what you wrote early on in this very thread:

 Quote:
#58475 - 08/22/11 From 2006 to the present day in 2011, the Australian Temple of THEM has been and remains an active nexion of the Sinister [...] We also seek to cohese and solidify the varied Dark nexions of the ONA and aid our Family wherever possible as a proud sector of the ONA Kollective

This puts the claims made against you in the O9A Etiquette document (and elsewhere) into perspective. A document which, others may be interested to know, was the subject of some debate last year on a closed O9A Facebook group (run by Judith L, with over 200 members, but since closed down) where people were encouraged to make their own judgment about the matter.

To paraphrase what I wrote in a previous reply on this thread, the more you respond, in your way, the more potentially useful indicators there are to assist people in formulating their own judgment about the individual behind the anonymous Ryan A character.

What that collective judgment is (or even was, last year) makes no difference whatsoever - of course - to the particular esoteric philosophy that is the essence of the O9A.

Given the foregoing - especially about 'useful indicators' - further response from me to whatever further comments you deem to make really is quite superfluous.


Edited by kerriscott (02/23/14 10:06 AM)
Edit Reason: typo

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#85277 - 02/23/14 10:21 AM Re: Law of the New Aeon [Re: Caladrius]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
In the end there are generally two types of people in o9a,

In aeonic terms, such a distinction doesn't matter. But of course the muppets/marks often like to believe they haven't been played, or don't have the perspicacity to understand the truth of the matter. Why, some even need to believe they've been the player.

 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
Although I fabricated the WSA - told stories, lied, etc - I hope that the few in o9a who matter are able to judge the Fruit of 6 years of my actions to determine which of the two types of person I am.

Indeed. As various O9A people keep saying - it's a question of occult perception; using certain occult skills to divine the physis of a person. Such skills take us way beyond words said or written, beyond tactics and causal forms used by an individual for whatever purpose, nefarious or otherwise.

There's also, of course, the matter of quid pro quo. Which returns us to the aeonic perspective \:\)

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#85283 - 02/23/14 02:26 PM Re: Law of the New Aeon [Re: Khk]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6847
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Khk
I believe Ryan falls under the first classification Caladrius, 1) those who serve their own Self-Interest or the interest of their own "nexion.

In the case of Black Magic and Form, whilst the End Results may be what is paid attention to, as organisms we represent minor aspects of the formation of the greater form. We compete then for space and light and dominance, which is what all of this comes down to: the tallest, the highest, the strongest. This is the function of argument.
Naturally however some of us are drawn to defend that which we believe in, for better or worse.


I think it was eloquently stated as thus:

 Originally Posted By: kerriscott
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
In the end there are generally two types of people in o9a,

In aeonic terms, such a distinction doesn't matter. But of course the muppets/marks often like to believe they haven't been played, or don't have the perspicacity to understand the truth of the matter. Why, some even need to believe they've been the player.

 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
Although I fabricated the WSA - told stories, lied, etc - I hope that the few in o9a who matter are able to judge the Fruit of 6 years of my actions to determine which of the two types of person I am.

Indeed. As various O9A people keep saying - it's a question of occult perception; using certain occult skills to divine the physis of a person. Such skills take us way beyond words said or written, beyond tactics and causal forms used by an individual for whatever purpose, nefarious or otherwise.

There's also, of course, the matter of quid pro quo. Which returns us to the aeonic perspective \:\)



It is afterall a matter of Aeonics.

Ultimately we each decide that state of things and their relevance, you can't deny the influences and their effects. As you stated, people tend to defend those things they are most invested in. The difference between wielding the thing and being wielded by it.
_________________________
SINJONES.com

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#85289 - 02/23/14 08:12 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Since you view Ryan as mundane it is only expected that you would act dishonourably and pretend these emails were never sent by you or AL. But here is another one, from DarkLogos aka, you, affirming Ryan as part of your o9a's elite.

26 Oct 2008 INTERNAL CORRESPONDENCE -


DarkLogos - Hi,

Your essay on the feminine was excellent - and perhaps an example of that magickal synchronicity (that energy emanating from the acausal) which touches us via a nexion such as the ONA and individuals related thereto.

For - to some extent - what you mention there is also addressed in the as yet unpublished sequels to "Herewith the Darkness" and The Moon's Tidal Moving, which aren't due for release for some months. What's been so far written re the sinister feminine has to be given a while to seep in and spread out, before the next subtle changes are introduced. Seeding people's psyche is an interesting part of Aeonic magick!

Somehow, though, I don't think you will be surprised by some of the things, although I expect most other people will be. One clue here is that people such as Eulalia are shape-shifters, and they fulfil in part the expectations of those they seek to influence and control (i.e. mostly men), so their outward physical appearance is designed to do this. Another clue is given in the Cantoreas story, where the actual un-human "form" of the dark entities is never described - that is, what they really are, in the causal world, before they inhabit a human form.

Reading the material - i.e. such things as THE ARTE OF SHAPE-SHIFTING - gives me the impression that such works fill many of the gaps left by the short pithy ONA works, and in some cases extend them, which is how it should be.

There are one or two interviews or essays by AL where it's mentioned that those influenced or affected (and even infected) by the ONA will by such a changing become a type of nexion themselves, like children who have grown up, and developed in a different way from their parents and become individuals.

To quote from one such text you sent: "THEM teaches what lies beyond the ONA and beneath the ONA." Yes, indeed. In particular, this bit is very true: "It teaches the subtext extracted and proven valid that lies beneath the ONA which is definitively an experimental means by Myatt to use our (humanity’s) belief in forms to induce certain qualities that he felt were necessary for achieving his dream of Homo Galactica..."

I've always thought that one aspect of Myatt's genius was in not only making public all ONA material and having it "copyleft" and not copyright, but in also having no old aeon type "membership" - getting individuals to work things out for themselves in their own way in their own time, and getting them to be responsible for themselves and learn from practical experience and such things as Insight Roles.

To quote you - "A dis-connected unification of a new consciousness that requires none of these trappings..." Simply brilliant.

It seems to me you've also grasped Myatt's life-long and unchanged vision and goals - to begin the process of creating really individual human beings, who understand the importance of honour (in terms of law, self responsibility etcetera), and to leave this planet, a step toward Homo Galactica. In short, to really build the foundations for a New Aeon. He's done things, and created things, to move toward these goals, and to fight in practical and magickal and other ways, the tyranny of the Magian. Hence of course his involvement with radical Islam these past ten years, the one force now actively fighting them and their minions and the one force which, as he sees it (rightly or wrongly) could make the difference in defeating them over the next fifty or more years.

So, he's been building both esoteric means (ONA and the like) and exoteric means (first NS, then Islam, and also let's not forget his Numinous Way) as means to aid this defeat and to create and get together the right people in the right way, realizing that different sorts of people are needed, with differing goals attuned to these different types of people. That's a real occult Master, at work, it seems to me - especially given the time scale he's working on, half a century to several centuries.

Seems in the late 70's CE he set himself various goals re ONA, and now we're at, just begun, the "third phase", thirty years on. Some commitment, and determination!

If it's OK by you, I'd like to send these works to X, whom I'm sure will find them also of interest, given her interest in DM. In confidence - and in case you hadn't already figured it out - she's the "[deleted]
He - like his mother - isn't interested in Myatt's aims or any of the causal "forms" (in ONA speak!).
Now, it's time for me to get back to doing some work....
DL


17th Fri Oct 2008 INTERNAL CORRESPONDENCE


DarkLogos - Hi,

Thanks for the reply, and it's great to know that there are other people "out there" who understand.

Your remarks are very perceptive indeed, and it is such perception, in my view (and that of X) that is one of Myatt's aims. That is, he's spread various "versions" of himself about in the hope that a few can see beyond outward appearance to the essence - a sort of magickal, esoteric, insight, if you will. Those who don't have this magickal ability, or perception, or can't or won't develop it (and the ONA is one means to aid this perception) are not important, and thus don't belong to the "new elite". Which elite dosen't need some old Aeon type ceremony, or structured organization, or some certificate or even "membership" but which just is a collection of individuals (nexions) scattered around the world who have certain abilities and who all in their own ways do helpful stuff consistent with certain ("sinister" - ie. evolutionary) aims.

I'm sure you'll know what I mean here - so, welcome, to this new elite.

>+O+ while his Islaamic ones are merely saying the same
> thing, that is, they contain the identical subtext of the
> former two, but are communicated within a different
> "wrapping".

Yes indeed!

A lot of his Islamic stuff is quite repetitive - centered around a few themes: need for Jihad; don't let the "infidels" (those fighting for the Magian Old World Order of dishonor) use their tactic of divide and conquer (ie. be loyal to other Muslims and hate those infidels). It's only passionate when he's writing about the Mujahideen - the modern warriors of Islam - and it's easy to see his admiration for the modern outlaw, bin Laden, and the modern warrior, Mullah Umah.

You're right about his passion re ONA stuff - just read his new stories (I meant of course, Anton Long's new stories) like "Herewith the Darkness", and you're right about Savitri Devi.

When I met Myatt, he recalled the one incident that set him investigating National Socialism when he was around 15 years old. It was reading an account of the actions of Otto Ernst Remer in July '44. Myatt was very impressed by Remer's absolute loyalty to Hitler (which never wavered, even after Hitler's death) and his courage and his decisive action, and regarded him as a true example of a modern warrior, a real hero (in the ancient Greek sense of that term). Myatt proudly showed me two signed photo's he had from Remer - one taken on the Eastern front during WW2. He corresponded with Remer for a while, and met him, once or twice, when Remer was in exile in Spain, a few years or so before Remer died. Remer of course lived in Egypt and Syria after the end of WW2 and helped train the Egyptian and Syrian armies and so was on good terms with many Muslims.


Regards,

DL

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#85290 - 02/23/14 09:35 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
#58475 - 08/22/11 From 2006 to the present day in 2011, the Australian Temple of THEM has been and remains an active nexion of the Sinister [...] We also seek to cohese and solidify the varied Dark nexions of the ONA and aid our Family wherever possible as a proud sector of the ONA Kollective

What does this change? The comment was that both THEM and o9a have been selective about admitting association or membership to each other on off for years. There are such changes of heart in this and other threads here both by your o9a and by THEM.

The Temple of THEM has chosen to aid a select few groups and individuals allied with or inspired by o9a because of mutual agreements between individual parties. Based on experiences with others it does not aid them all indiscriminately or blindly but clearly chooses some over others. It makes individual judgements.

The logistics alone of what your code suggests, re: that all genuine o9a members are in contact with each other, is patently absurd considering the network of global nexions from Iceland to Russia to America to England that o9a claims to have and so on.

"Yes indeed - timorously afraid of what some anonymous person writes on the internet or circulates via e-mail or puts in some self-published book.
Yes indeed - afraid of ideas in general."

I'm glad we agree. But it is a very small number of persons with many socks that dislike Ryan and generate the ongoing conflict between o9a and THEM - not the entire cult. You, it seems, have followed him across multiple networks under various socks with your various claims wishing to convince your flock of Ryan's betrayal and shift blame onto him for damaging your o9a. You, are damaging your o9a with your transparent backmasking.


Edited by Khk (02/23/14 09:44 PM)

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#85299 - 02/24/14 11:17 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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This is funny to read as an outsider. Please continue.

On the outside, I couldn't care less if you've been 'dishonored' by another. It doesn't have shit to do with how I bestow honor upon others. I can appreciate the mind behind the screen. Even the socks, trolls, etc. It's all just a mind-to-mind exchange.
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#85314 - 02/24/14 03:15 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SIN3]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
This is funny to read as an outsider.

It's also funny as an 'insider'. As in, to give just one example, Khk aka Ryan aka Alex - aka whoever - not understanding irony. Perhaps he was, years ago, too busy doing Transcendental Meditation (to relieve the stress of being in the 6th grade) to pay attention to his English lessons.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Please continue.

Not me. There are enough 'useful indicators' now - here and elsewhere - for sagacious people to make their own mind up about the matter.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
It's all just a mind-to-mind exchange.

Not quite all - but I'm sure you can intuit the other minor 'dimension'.



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#85315 - 02/24/14 03:20 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Ha. Well, it's all useful as far as I'm concerned. One of the perks of having a huge foot-print on the netz is going back to see some of your own derptidude and have that moment of: What the hell was I thinking?

I don't care what anyone says about you, you're still a funny bastard. \:\)
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#85340 - 02/25/14 06:33 AM Child Pornography and the o9a [Re: Khk]
Khk Offline
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Posts: 398
I believe Ryan took issue with the following discussion that took place on the o9a forum 7/1/2011

> When you insist that others be dark, how dark is too dark?

This is an important issue IMO - which needs to be addressed.
+O+ Yes it is Smoon because its not the first time its arisen - just the first its been mentioned. +O+ 

Starting point - we're amoral and concerned with individual change/evolution (via dark arts) in the context of our code of kindred honor.
+O+ Yes - but I don't think "chuckles" gets that - nor do I think a whole lot of people get the Dynamic aspect of the Sinister +O+ 
Therefore, nothing is too dark, or can be forbidden. Because it's for everyone *of us* or associating with us to make their own decisions about what they do and why.
+O+ I disagree. Vehemently. You are ostensibly accepting that this individual under the name of the ONA can traffic (as that is my understanding of what he intends to do) children as part of the Sinister Way? +O+
 
That is, we do not and cannot set limits or restrictions on the amoral actions of others.
+O+ But we do it all the time - more now than ever - so I don't think that's true - we may paint it as if we're giving free reign but if we were we wouldn't need a thousand manuscripts telling people how to be ONA - I think you might be underestimating the future fallout this might have on the ONA in terms of who it draws in, and more importantly how fucking fast we get shut down - that sort of stigma STICKS - look at the Satanic panic, and yeah - there was no proof that time - but this time... ? +O+
 
Their experience, their pathei mathos, is theirs.
+O+ Yeah but its under your umbrella +O+

While we personally may not agree with or even like their actions, their choices, their reasons, the final judgement is not ours as individuals but that of wyrd, of the sinister dialectic.
+O+ Like? Dislike? This cunt should be murdered. My understanding was that children didnt play a part in ONA - now you're saying its ok - I'm not cool with that. Neither do I think it serves our best interests to let it go unchallenged. Talking about it here makes others accesories before the facts which can be provided. +O+

That is, whether those individuals doing deeds we personally may disapprove of (1) personally learn, and advance and move toward wisdom, and (2) whether their deeds, in the perspective of centuries, aids the downfall of *the system* and the emergence of our new aeon.
+O+ DIsprove is not a strong enough word - you have children don't you? Or maybe you don't which is why you're being fucked up and philosophical about this +O+

Don't forget - our basic criteria is that of kindred honor. It's us and mundanes. Our honor extends to only our own kind. Our law of honor applies only to our own kind - we don't extend it to mundanes.
+O+ Honour? How do you distinguish a mundane trafficking children from a so-called sinsterion trafficking children? Because the mundane doesn't "Get it" ? This cunt is our own kind whether you like it or not - and there are going to be others like him if we don't do something about it. You can't wash your hands of responsibility now - this cunt has to die. +O+

So, mundanes are fair game. If mundanes don't like this - they can join us and receive our protection, which means they won't become our victims or be seen as possible victims for our amoral deeds.
+O+ Protection? So we're becoming the very reason I turned to Satanism - to stamp out pedophiles in the Church who dare preach gospels of virtue and who are protected from their actions? THis sounds like fairy-land SMoon - you'll pardon my aggression because this is one of the worst things I have come to learn of associated with ONA and you're trying to explain it away - this is not bombs, or guns, or corporate fraud - this is the sale and rape of small children - supposedly protected by the ADULTS ONLY clause - I thought. +O+

That's the bottom line. That's what our amorality, our honor, and being kindred, mean in the real world.

It's violent out there :-)
+O+ Well yes - because of people like us not taking responsibility for what we do. If thats the bottom line we're fucked - cause once this gets out or Rexy boy gets caught with all that ONA shit in his hands - you'll find out just what persecution really is saying you're ONA. +O+



As a reaction to this, Ryan vehemently regarded Anton Long as encouraging a network of paedophiles. He cited as such to Jack McCleod on the Circle of Descent, who demanded proof of his claims but Ryan refused to supply it. I think it was at this point that Ryan learned of his limits in regards to Amorality and the o9a.
Angered by SinisterMoon's (whom he regards as Myatt) insistence to treat children either sinister or mundane in this way and unwilling to discuss it as a “kollective” he lashed out at SM and all who supported this form. “Anton Long” then charitably issued a sharing caring pronouncement about Children and the o9a for which he thanked the 'kollective' for having agreed as a group to o9a's stance toward child pornography / paedophila etc including Ryan. Ryan felt he was pulling o9a back from a brink – a brink that others felt he had no right to pull them back from.


Ryan appears to have had trouble with his conscience sparking vitriol toward AL and others by regarding the o9a as similar to the Church repeating another member of o9a's forum analogy who was against the idea of child involvement as well, of Anton Long as a Black Priest and his adherents as some sort of dark clergy all kiddy fiddling. Ryan and that member found it hard to reconcile the progressive concept of o9a that now resembled the Catholic Church.
This conflict appears to have finally dissolved and he to have reconciled with his reaction. I refer to Directive A-2 of the Temple of THEM:- “If you have morals, keep them to yourself.” In my opinion, Ryan, was wrong. Not to personally reject this form but to try and control it for others.

It is doubtful that he personally endorses all forms of amorality but that IS the way of the Sinister. With these kinds of topics you get to the very heart of the LHP. And what it means. And who is capable of it.





Edited by Khk (02/25/14 06:37 AM)

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#85341 - 02/25/14 07:27 AM The Order of Nine Angles [Re: Khk]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Khk
I believe Ryan took issue with the following discussion that took place on the o9a forum 7/1/2011 - blah blah blah

So - someone somewhere sometime claiming to be O9A wrote something rather controversial, ergo the views of this person are those of the Order of Nine Angles and those associated with it, blah blah blah.

What parts of the authority of individual judgment, and of the principle of expecting people to deduce things for themselves, don't you understand? Rhetorical questions, BTW, as would asking if you ever really understood what the O9A meant by the word honor. A word used by Anton Long in relation to the ONA way back in the 70's, 80s, and 90s (q.v. for example his letter to Aquino dated 7th September 1990).

Yet again you conveniently 'forget' certain O9A items, such as the following entitled Children and the ONA, widely distributed and findable by anyone who cares to do an internet search.

 Quote:
A fundamental principle of the Order of Nine Angles – one of our five core traditions – is that of Kindred Honour, which means two important things: (1) that our behaviour toward our own kind, our kindred, is governed by particular rules and guidelines manifest in our written Code of Honour; and (2) that our behaviour toward mundanes is guided by our understanding of them (and their wealth and property) as a useful resource.

In practice, our code of kindred (or sinister) honour means that we strive to be honourable toward our own kind – our kindred. Our law of honour does not apply to adult mundanes of sound body and mind, and thus they are considered fair game, a resource; although should it be necessary – for example in the matter of individual culling – our honour demands that we give them a sporting chance by subjecting them to certain tests in order to verify their mundane character.

Children of the ONA

Those who are of our kind – those who are of the ONA – are those who are pledged brothers and sisters. This means that they strive to live by our Code of Kindred Honour, that they accept our five core principles/traditions, and that they seek to implement and achieve the Goals, Aims and Objectives, of the ONA as outlined in our Guide To The Kulture and Sinister Ethos of the ONA.

Our code of honour means that we take responsibility for ourselves and for those to whom we have given a personal pledge of loyalty. This personal pledge of loyalty by its very nature includes our own children, and means that we will not only nurture them to be healthy, strong, self-reliant, individuals capable of defending themselves, but also fiercely protect and defend them, if necessary by the use of lethal force, and seek vengeance – according to our kindred code – should anyone harm them.

Thus, we rely on ourselves, and if necessary also on our kinfolk – and do not rely upon anyone or anything else. Hence, we settle our disputes among ourselves, according to our code of kindred honour, just as the only justice we accept and believe in is our justice, deriving from our code. That is, we scorn, disdain, dislike, any and all “authority”, and all laws, except our own, and accept that vengeance is a healthy and natural duty.

In respect of our children, we accept responsibility for them and for their development until they reach such an age as they are developed, mature, enough to make their own informed choices, which is generally around sixteen years of age. Before this age, we are their guardians. After this age, then and only then are they free to join us and our activities – be such activities Occult, Dreccian, Niner, or otherwise – as a result of them making their own decision and being given the absolute freedom to so choose. Thus, when they reach this age, they are given the choice, and should they choose not to pledge themselves – and thus do not accept our code of kindred honour – then our responsibility for them ends, and they have to make their own way in the world of humans.

Children of Mundanes

A mundane is anyone who is not one of us; anyone who does not belong to our family, our extended family, our kindred, our kollective. In brief – someone who does not live by our Code of Kindred Honour and who thus accepts the laws and the so-called ‘authority’ of nation-States. That is, mundanity does not depend on such social abstractions as ethnicity, wealth, social status, occupation, education, place of birth, nationality, or whatever.

As mentioned above, our law of honour does not apply to adult mundanes of sound body and mind, and thus such human beings are considered fair game, a resource; although should it be necessary – for example in the matter of individual culling – our honour demands that we give them a sporting chance by subjecting them to certain tests in order to verify their mundane character. Thus and importantly, the children of mundanes – those below the age of sixteen or so – are not considered mundanes per se.

That is, we accord such children – until they reach the age of choice, of maturity – a certain respect, which in practical terms means they are exempt from being considered fair game, a resource. This naturally excludes us from involvement with certain activities involving children and also means that individuals of certain proclivities, involving children, are regarded by us as dishonourable individuals who most certainly are not of our kind.


That you now claim that "Ryan felt he was pulling o9a back from a brink" is hilarious. The brink of the authority of individual judgment, and of the principle of expecting people to deduce things for themselves? The brink of honor? Again, just rhetorical questions.

That you went to the trouble to find such an item, as a distraction; that you titled your post Child Pornography and the o9a - shock! horror! gasp! call the FBI! write to your local newspaper! - and that you write that "Ryan vehemently regarded Anton Long as encouraging a network of paedophiles" really is the most 'useful indicator' of all (so far) vis-a-vis you yourself.

But do please continue, for this really is now not only (as someone recently said) amusing but also the end of the O9A as we know it \:\)






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#85342 - 02/25/14 08:30 AM Re: The Order of Nine Angles [Re: kerriscott]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6847
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
There are enough 'useful indicators' now - here and elsewhere - for sagacious people to make their own mind up about the matter.


Indeed. I see it. I can also see the reason that a personal Jihad arises within. Conflicting notions, codes and matters of Kindred.

A rock and hard place - sure. End of o9A? Perhaps a change in perception of what it is, what it does and who it does it to.

I'm subscribed to a few blogs that share the MSS. One in particular comes to mind and I'm not naive; I knew it was a test.

While not technically a blog dedicated to sharing 'child pornography', it included photo spreads of teen girls. I kept an eye on it. To watch people subscribe and unsubscribe to it. Obviously, something about it didn't sit quite right with them.

A matter of personal honor? Perhaps. If one were keeping to the code and didn't consider this blogger their kindred then I don't see the offense. What they did next, well... Yeah. It amuses the mind.
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#85343 - 02/25/14 11:16 AM Re: The Order of Nine Angles [Re: SIN3]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
I can also see the reason that a personal Jihad arises within. Conflicting notions, codes and matters of Kindred.

Indeed. As exoterically described in the following article, which also has some relevance to what Ryan posted earlier - http://omega9alpha.wordpress.com/individual-judgement/

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
End of o9A?

Actually I was being ironic, again; for Ryan's benefit.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
I'm subscribed to a few blogs that share the MSS. One in particular comes to mind and I'm not naive; I knew it was a test.

Possibly, although some believe that particular blog may be part of some devious campaign to smear or discredit the O9A. It was also the first to post that guff about a new 'outer O9A representative'.

Whatever - it's just part of a much wider aeonic game, part of a necessary and expected dialectic. Not to mention as you say a test of individual judgment and certain occult skills.

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#85344 - 02/25/14 12:48 PM Re: The Order of Nine Angles [Re: kerriscott]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6847
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
it's just part of a much wider aeonic game, part of a necessary and expected dialectic. Not to mention as you say a test of individual judgment and certain occult skills.


That's the way I feel about it.

 Quote:
Conflict, Outer Representatives and the Sinister Dialect In conclusion: given the necessity of kampf, of dissent, and given our decades-long sinister strategy and our sinister dialectic, the recent conflict – and other developments (past and present) as well as all criticism (however inane) of the O9A – are most welcome. Long may such things continue.


Well stated, in my opinion.
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#85345 - 02/25/14 01:55 PM Re: The Order of Nine Angles [Re: SIN3]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: SIN3

 Quote:
Conflict, Outer Representatives and the Sinister Dialect In conclusion: given the necessity of kampf, of dissent, and given our decades-long sinister strategy and our sinister dialectic, the recent conflict – and other developments (past and present) as well as all criticism (however inane) of the O9A – are most welcome. Long may such things continue.

Well stated, in my opinion.

Oh crap, I was holding that quotation in reserve...

Ah well, I guess it's back to the star game to figure out their next moves \:\)



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#85538 - 03/06/14 08:18 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
kerriscott Offline
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Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
Just to mention that that O9A Etiquette text - linked to earlier - has been updated to include a recent development:

 Quote:
The case against the 'quantum philosopher' was proven beyond all reasonable doubt when - talking about himself in the third person in a posting on a satanic forum in February 2014, a posting he propagandistically entitled Child Pornography and the o9a - he admitted that:

1. He vehemently regarded Anton Long as encouraging a network of paedophiles.
2. He had trouble with his conscience sparking vitriol toward AL and others
3. He was angered by a posting by SinisterMoon (whom he regarded as Myatt)

Note here:

a) Ryan's dishonourable accusation of Anton Long encouraging a network of paedophiles - as if Ryan is a hack journalist writing a sensationalist expose for a tabloid newspaper and trying to link the O9A (and Anton Long especially) with 'child pornography' and paedophilia;
b) the intense personal emotions - vehemently regarded, vitriol toward; angered by;
c) the mundane assumption of Myatt posting on satanic forums using pseudonyms.

These publicly made assumptions, the publicly made sensationalist accusations, and such emotive, prejudiced, very public reactions, were all made anonymously and were directed toward those who had been involved in the O9A for decades. They were also made after some eight years of public involvement, by 'Ryan', with the O9A, during which eight years Ryan insisted on remaining anonymous.

Thus, one is entitled to ask, where the self-control that such a length of time of active involvement in an experiential exeatic way should have developed in this Ryan character? Where those occult skills that eight years of occult involvement should have developed? Where the insight - the esoteric empathy - that such a lengthy involvement should also have developed?

In particular, where the restraint toward 'the family' that the O9A code - that honour itself - demands? A restraint, born of years of experience, that should have impelled him to seek answers in private before going public [...]

Instead, what was and has been revealed was and is the emotive behaviour of a novice, or one of the o9a-pretendu-crowd. The behaviour of someone lacking in honour toward those he claimed, in 2011, were 'his family'.

Source - http://omega9alpha.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/o9a-etiquette-v9.pdf


The 'child pornography' and paedophilia accusations alone suffice to induce one to conclude certain things about the person making such accusations.

Therefore, Q.E.D., perhaps?




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#85539 - 03/06/14 09:23 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 1849
Loc: Poland
“But for every man there exists a bait which he cannot resist swallowing.”

Honestly dude, you're dragging this shit for what purpose? Do you think most people here give a fuck about your cock fight with Ryan? Or perhaps, this fight is not even yours.

I hope that at the very least you get some cookies for all your drudgery here. Or are you sweating in that coal mine for free? Well... in that case I would sue the company if I were you.
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#85540 - 03/06/14 09:33 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6847
Loc: Virginia
Q.E.D. indeed.

Are All Men Pedophiles? the definitions appear to be a catch-all for certain taboos that are the epitome of Mundanity.

Even the bit on the O9A children, people would immediately look to the standards of Law to determine if allowing a 16 year old to do this or that is permitted. Otherwise, it would be considered a form of criminal neglect.

Funny how that works eh?
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#85700 - 03/13/14 11:15 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Czereda]
Agnihotram Offline
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Registered: 01/31/12
Posts: 22
I see love sparks in the air here \:\) Maybe AL and RA just should get a room and get done with it. Some good, hours long bdsm fun would flash it out of their system.

This is a really just a cock fight (or so it seems), and it is a lengthy one. It can be amusing at times, it can be disgusting, but for the worst it adds up to nothing, it is not affecting anything or anyone. But it does sometimes speak volumes about the psyche of individuals in question.

Will not get too deep into that right now, but bottom line is that no one would expect from Enlightened Alchemist (or Immortal to be) and a Quantum Philosopher to spend this amount of time and energy fighting each other on some mundane forums and such, just like some nagging old women.

For some time now RA is exhibiting, like a friend of mine says, behaviour of not fully recovered cult victim. Being evangelical like any cult victim, preaching in public and in private how ONA is evil, deceptive, one would say malicious and sinister. It annoyed me a bit at start, but afterwards me and my friends were like: "ONA is evil? No way? RA, mate,who told you such a lie?"

It sounded a bit like when MikaEL Ford was saying he left ONA because they are Nazi. Yea, right - MWF was so stupid not to understand sorcery of heresy and believed ONA was truly Nazi. Just like some believe ONA is truly Satanic, or truly Sinister, or truly whatever..

AL is exhibiting attitude and behaviour of sociopathic cult guru who enjoy skullfucking, like for always. Even in his old MSS you can read about how psyche of satanist is dangerous and harmful for all the others, along with the suggestion that in every true satanic order there is only one true satanist, maximum two of them, all others being used.

Despite the above mentioned confessions there are always those who like to hang out with AL and to be abused and skullfucked, only because they feel special while exchanging some secret MSS with him, or some secret plans for world (wide web) domination. After initial thrill wears off, usually hurt ego emerges assessing that they didn't receive what they hoped for, which makes obvious that their contribution and desire to be close to the "inner circles" and to be involved with ONA, was based on counting on something great in return. What? Magic wand which turn mundanes into pigs? Or just some fancy title and praise that will make them feel superior to others associated.

Also, another scenario is possible: Maybe AL need RA exactly like he is today. Maybe they both just play along the script already agreed on in their "inner" comradeship. RA's evangelical work began about at the same time when AL started promoting ONA as an evil cult described in some novels, about the same time when Chloe "left" and ONA and its new representatives turned again toward some darker and more satanic image of the Order.

And why exactly this question of child porn and pedophilia is brought about at this moment? How recent MS about individual judgment relates to this? How does it relate to Project Polaris nexion and their postings of some child and jailbait models on their page? Why this nexion shares the same name (project polaris) with international organization fighting human trafficking? Add to this my prediction that in the future legal age for sexual consent will be greatly lowered in most of the civilized world.

So.. Either 1) RA, CB, MWF, Chloe and others are cult victims, all dealing with their trauma and personal issues with AL in their own manner, and in their own time or 2) they are the same crew playing out some dialectic drama?
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#85709 - 03/13/14 07:55 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Agnihotram]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Agnihotram
This is a really just a cock fight

A plebal assumption. It was actually about two things - what the O9A is, and what being O9A means and implies on the personal level. Like it said in the pertinent O9A essay about the matter which I initially linked to: "An example should suffice in its minutiae to illustrate the principles involved."

The key words are: 1) example, 2) minutiae, 3) illustrate, and 4) principles.

But I guess that essay was just too high-falutin for some.

 Originally Posted By: Agnihotram
a lengthy one

Only as long - as some of my replies intimated - as was required for the 'example' - i.e. RA - to provide, in his replies, sufficient useful indicators for the sagacious to draw certain conclusions. Which useful indicators he did provide, one of the most indicative being when he introduced here the topic of Child Pornography and the O9A and mentioned his emotive reactions when a similar topic was discussed some years ago elsewhere.

 Originally Posted By: Agnihotram
How recent MS about individual judgment relates to (that topic)?

Simple. As that recent MS states:
 Quote:
The axiom of the authority of individual judgement means that each O9A person, nexion, group, or cell, are free to develop their own interpretation of everything O9A, free to develop and change everything O9A, and that there is no authority above the individual, or beyond each group or collective of groups. No leader, no outer (or inner) ‘representative’, no council, no ‘old guard’, who can make pronouncements about or declare what is or is not correct. No ‘official’ or ‘genuine’ O9A; no ‘heresy’; no proscription of individuals or groups.

One of the practical guidelines of the Order of the Nine Angles is that there is no morality – no judgement about what is right and what is wrong – but our own individual one... It is for each individual to decide – to judge – for themselves, based on what they personally feel, on what they personally know, honour is. For they are the ultimate authority of what is ‘right’ and what is ‘wrong’. Not some consensus; not what someone else writes or says; not what a majority believe or assert; not what some group or organization declaims; not what some government or State enshrines in some law or laws; and not what some zeitgeist suggests or impels some people to feel.

Honor as in the O9A code aka the O9A logos aka the law of the new aeon.

 Originally Posted By: Agnihotram
sociopathic cult guru ... hurt ego ... yada yada

What splendid examples of Magian reductionism. Thank you.



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#85713 - 03/14/14 01:03 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
Caladrius Offline
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Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: kerriscott
... he introduced here the topic of Child Pornography and the O9A and mentioned his emotive reactions when a similar topic was discussed some years ago elsewhere.


Ah yes, that episode... brings back memories. Those were the good ole days \:\)

That was the around the same time we had a brain storm about how human children are not by default "mundane." They come into this world - as every creature of nature - Numinous. More divine, and closer to God/Cosmos/Nature than most of us adults can ever be.

I still take sides on that old issue or fight, even today. It's not really the issue of children that gets me angry.

What ticks me off is when people use their moral sentiments to smother other people with.

This is the one major thing I hate about so called "Satanism," and the so called Left Hand Path, and even with many folks in ONA who don't 'get it.' So called Satanists, LHPers, and some "o9a-ers" don't seem to understand what the words INDIVIDUAL and INDIVIDUALITY means. Where they nonchalantly just expect and even demand that every other person follows their way, their morals, their ethics, and so on. Or that an entire institution or entire philosophy should do so.

Instead, they act and think from a Right Hand Pathish, or Mundane [anariya] perspective. Where they react emotively to such moral issues... where they have emotive opinions about such moral issues... and instead of learning to keep that shit to their fucking selves, they try to force their moral sentiments and emotive opinion onto other people. To blanket cover other people around them with their personal moral convictions, moral opinions, or what have you. As if they were saying: "If I don't like the idea of a guy fondling a 15 year old, then shoot, everyone else shouldn't either, and nobody should be doing it!" Says who I ask. Who died and made you Jesus?

My personal reaction to RA back then during that episode was how he suggested, in how he said things, that ONA should have some group system of morals. Why? How is ONA an Individualistic Way, but yet it has moral and ethical [re: emotive/butthurt] beliefs [re: reactions] which EVERYONE in ONA must obey and follow?

The other thing about dumb people which bugs the hell out of me - especially if these dummies are so called "Satanists," or so called "o9a" - when they don't really understand what the word and idea "Amoral" actually means in practical terms.

When you tell these dummies: "Such and such group is Amoral." They're like: "So they have no morals? Which ergo means they are bad and immoral?"

A+moral means to be without Moral, yes. But when we say that an Institution or a philosophy, ideology, memeplex, whatever is Amoral, what does that mean, in pragmatic terms?

It means the same thing as when I say: "The institution of Science - which is based on the scientific method - is devoid of moral belief/sentiment/doctrine. For science does not concern itself with such." Does this mean that scientists are immoral, and are incapable of being decent people? No.

What that means is that the INDIVIDUAL scientist is at liberty to have or not have their own moral/ethical beliefs/sentiments; but that the institution itself or the philosophy itself does not concern itself with institutionalized moral doctrines. Because such concerns fall under the domain and jurisdiction of the INDIVIDUAL and their INDIVIDUAL JUDGMENT, and is not therefore the judgement or jurisdiction of the institution or philosophy. The Scientific Method is just a method of science, and not a method of moral living.

Many oriental philosophies proper, are Amoral [re: without moral doctrine]. Meaning that the philosophical insights itself does not concern itself with institutionalized moral doctrines. The Tao is just Tao. The individual human being who ascribes to the philosophy of the Tao is at liberty to have their own individual morality. But the Esoteric Philosophy of the Tao in and of itself, does not have an institutionalized system of morality which all Taoists must obey and follow. The philosophy of the Tao, is just that: a Philosophy of something called Tao.

So when someone says that ONA is amoral, it means something on a real pragmatic level. It means, yes, it is without or beyond morals: A+moral. Here's a couple trick questions: What's the opposite of Causal? Not A+Causal! Anti+Causal. What's the opposite of Gravity? Not A+Gravity [the absence of such] but Anti+Gravity.

ONA is Amoral means that the Esoteric Philosophy "codified" by Anton Long is not concerned with groupthink morality, and that it does not have an institutionalized doctrine of morality. It means that on an everyday pragmatic and real level, that each INDIVIDUAL ONA person is free to have or not have morals... and also that each INDIVIDUAL keeps such morals or lack thereof to themselves... hence the word: INDIVIDUAL.

That ONA is an Individualistic Way, suggests and means the same thing. That we/you as an individuated individual are/is at liberty to have or not have morals, and that we keep such morals or lack of such to our individual selves... otherwise, the word "individual" and "individualistic way" no longer is applicable, you see.

And so the ONA MS Kerriscott quotes goes:

 Quote:


One of the practical guidelines of the Order of the Nine Angles is that there is no morality – no judgement about what is right and what is wrong – but our own individual one... It is for each individual to decide – to judge – for themselves, based on what they personally feel, on what they personally know, honour is. For they are the ultimate authority of what is ‘right’ and what is ‘wrong’. Not some consensus; not what someone else writes or says; not what a majority believe or assert; not what some group or organization declaims; not what some government or State enshrines in some law or laws; and not what some zeitgeist suggests or impels some people to feel.



Edited by Caladrius (03/14/14 01:16 AM)
_________________________
Chloe 352

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#85719 - 03/14/14 07:35 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Caladrius]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
the Esoteric Philosophy "codified" by Anton Long is not concerned with groupthink morality

Excellent point.

To paraphrase a 2009 O9A article popular in its day: "Each of us are a law unto ourselves. We set our own limits. We make our own rules; devise our own codes of behavior. We have our own, individual, aims. But we all – each and every one of us – are of the O9A by virtue of the fact we are family bound by loyalty to our own kind; bound by sharing the same ethos, manifest in the O9A Code."

So, here we are five years later with - and let's be generous - around another five more people, world wide, sagacious enough, or having the requisite occult skills, to apprehend what the O9A is really all about behind the bling. Now that's aeonic progress of the esoteric kind the O9A thrive on and live for.

That the true - the inner - physis of one of the pretendu-crowd has been exposed along the way is just a bonus.


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#85722 - 03/14/14 12:42 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
Agnihotram Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/31/12
Posts: 22
I never perceived RA to be peculiarly Satanic or Sinister. He is intelligent writer and able to convey some esoteric matters through written word. But there was always something missing. And anyone with heightened senses could feel this for always. Some asserted it was a lack of real life experience, but in his recent post he reveals what really was missing all the time:

 Quote:
Some are inherently good and cannot be evil. I would be lying if I said I had not tried these many years to sabotage the increase of darkness under the guise of being Satanic – and trying to make the world a better place, to change others in a positive way by defusing the heart of darkness.

That is precisely what I have been working for. I am not evil, or elite, and my nature has left a littered road of burning bridges behind me because of the incompatibility of my soul’s nature with that of others.
.......

It annoys me that it is not in my character to be a certain something to which I have aspired, that I lack the necessary components in my make-up, will, or bearing to be something part of me really wants to be but which I simply cannot for whatever reason reason gives.


And he is right. Some people are born inherently evil and some are not. But the question is how many of those who proclaim to be satanist or o9a are there exactly because they lack that evil inside and are trying to supersede it with something from the outside, with feeling of belonging to some super-evil elite? I would say that most of the people drawn to something evil are inherently good. They are just victims of simple principles that are on work in nature.

Anyway around, if we are about to pass any judgments and make this look like a law case, I would say that RA loses for sure. Why?

Because he is accusing of being deceptive and evil someone who define themselves as exactly deceptive and evil. It makes no case. He even had a disclaimer printed on product in large font, warning of potential dangers if used. No one forced him to use it - he was just too weak to resist it. Above quote telling us why he was too weak to resist it. His inherited goodness needed protective cover of elite evil.

Also, for me it is obvious some kind of competition with AL over "authority" on esoteric matters related to Sinister Tradition.

However his running around the net was annoying at times it was also amusing. here are the basic things brought by him in this crusade:

1) ONA is deceptive and evil

I think I already elaborated enough why this cannot be used as argument against ONA. It's like - accusation: "you are deceptive and evil" response: "I was telling that about myself even before you were born"

2) ONA is telling one thing and doing another (i.e. matter of child trafficking and "official" ONA stance about it)

This one can also fall under the 1) being it can be seen as deceptive behaviour.

On the other hand it is strange for someone who studied occultism for some years not to be aware how every order and every current has its inner teachings and reality in contrast with teachings and reality they serve "mundanes", "gojim" or potential initiates with. esoteric and exoteric. Again, when ONA states "I'm amoral, deceptive, evil" it simply means exactly that what has been said - that ONA is amoral, deceptive and evil. This simply leads to conclusion that by default you cannot believe anything such entity says or claims, because it is more probable than not that it would be deception and a lie. Just fashioned after the image of Satan - "the father of lies". Isn't it? Who can guarantee that ONA not only turns blind eye, but actually encouraging all possible evils including child trafficking and psychopathic killings devoid of notions about "culling" and standards of the same, sporting chance given to opfer, tests blah, blah.. Not that you can't find hints at this through some esoteric instructions given in some MSS. For example somewhere is mentioned why it is important to do all kinds of evils in order to fill astral shell of this world with darkness, to make it "crack". Those intuitive enough know that sorcery of the Dark Gods is not considered with any ideology, any kind of group thinking, any kind of morality, or legal age at some point of time in this or that state. After all, you don't have to be that much fucking intuitive, ONA clearly states all of this - it is not considered with any ideology, any isms, any morals and dogma.

3) AL is using countless online nyms and accounts propagating ONA and patting himself on the back for being genius he is.

RA is not at all using different nyms and accounts to propagate THEM, to exalt it and to lower ONA, to pat himself on the back for being quantum genius he is.

The funny part is, both accusing each other of doing the same thing they actually do. As I said before, I wouldn't imagine personas they try to portrait themselves to be, acting like that. But one has to be able to distinguish facts and myths, I guess, in order to understand something, which is esoteric, behind both.

4) ONA philosophy, tradition and mythos are fabricated.

Point finger at the tradition, or anything for that matter, that is not "fabricated". Everything has its own fabric. Always in this formative, causal universe causal form was fabricated so it can convey some esoteric truth. It always is processed by someone's mind before it sees the light of day. Again, throughout ONA's MSS you can find mentions of how historic or similar kind of accuracy is not at all important when it comes to understanding esoteric truths behind mythos, and when it comes to purpose of mythos as such after all. In the end - what is THEM then if it is fabricated out of already fabricated tradition?

And this is where what is annoying to me kicks in - all of this nonsense summed up and used as an argument in some egoistic games, used as an argument to convince some associated to, sort of, dis-associate. I guess in order to champion THEM as something more advanced in comparison to ONA. And "associates" laughed at nonsense, not giving a damn actually about neither AL nor RA; Caring only about what those individuals were able to give to that which is impersonal, which is beyond all of our mortal lives, beyond ONA, THEM, beyond who and what ever. Some decided long time before all of this to be "dis-associated" with nonsense.
_________________________
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#85723 - 03/14/14 02:30 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Agnihotram]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: Agnihotram
AL is using countless online nyms and accounts propagating ONA

Such an accusation, by Ryan, is amusing for several reasons. First, it's anonymously made by someone using a nym in order to try and hide his own identity. Second, it just repeats what many mundane mundanes have been saying for years. Third, it reveals an astonishing lack of occult skills on the part of Ryan, the self-professed occultist. Fourth, and assuming we accept the claim that AL=DM, then DM is a public figure whose life is reasonably well-documented by mainstream sources, and as DM wrote a few years ago (before the Snowden revelations) -
 Quote:
Since at least 1997 I have no doubt been under regular covert surveillance by Special Branch and MI5 – and especially so since 9/11 given some statements I made while a Muslim – with all my communications (internet, telephonic) monitored via GCHQ and by various security agencies overseas. Indeed, following my conversion to Islam and during the time I seemed to be, for the security services and the Police, 'a significant person of interest', I recall many meetings and friendly conversations with one of the Special Branch officers on attachment to the city near where I was then living.

Post-1997 I have worked on the assumption that all my communications are so monitored and therefore, as I mentioned in my article Polemos Our Genesis, "I have restricted my internet and telephonic communications to friends, family, and to people I personally know or who are personally known to someone I trust. This means two things. That all I communicate is personal, open, transparent, and honest; and that if someone not belonging to this small circle of contacts claims to have had some communication from me – either sent with my name or sent using some pseudonym – then it is bogus.

Given that DM was mentioned at NATO conferences - on terrorism and the like - many times in the naughties and as recently as 2010 (qv. Terrorism and the Internet: Threats, Target Groups, Deradicalisation Strategies. NATO Science for Peace and Security Series, vol. 67. IOS Press, 2010. pp.16-17) then it's logical to assume the surveillance of Myatt's communications, by GCHQ and the NSA, continued up until at least 2010.

So, in summary we have an anonymous person making silly accusations on the internet about a public figure (which public figure is most probably still under surveillance by the security services) and made without the anonymous person providing any evidence to support such accusations.

 Originally Posted By: #
and patting himself on the back for being genius he is

Such a claim surely says more about Ryan that it does about AL, especially given (1) what AL wrote in The Enigmatic Truth, dated 123 yf about living in propria persona and (2) his decades long self-effacing insistence on him 'having no authority', and (3) on his propagation of the importance of individual judgment and individual self-development via personal experience. Oh and here's a hint for those who'll rush to google in propria persona - it has a long literary and scholarly usage beyond it's more recent legal connotations, often in the sense of someone speaking 'in propria persona', as opposed e.g. to 'the passive voice'. Thus, someone living 'in propria persona' might suggest something to the intelligentsia.....

Whatever, given that the case against Ryan has been proven, all this - while fun - seems somewhat superfluous.



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#85732 - 03/14/14 09:22 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Agnihotram]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Spot on Agni. In both your recent posts. You've uncovered some things. Firstly, 'Ryan Anschauung' is not a person. He is an avatar. Secondly, he is the archetype of the Saviour, the Messiah, (Aryan Weltanschauung, or RA from Tnepres Ra meaning 'He Who Illuminates Satan', or the 'Backwards Serpent'). And as an avatar or character in a story, must therefore behave a certain way to complete a lengthy alchemical process, a process started long ago to satisfy personal and private curiosities regarding Form and how to work with it, work against it, and what does what when something does this or this. Or how this process can be chained to produce longer and larger directed sequences. Behind the presence an author. An author. The author is well aware of the ironies associated with morality: see the Psychology of Satanism and Insight into the Machine from Diary Two of the Devilworshipper Series, that dates from 2004. But these things and Ryan's 'reputation' mean nothing to the author, alchemical things have come about external and internal without anyone the wiser as to how or why for the benefit of the hidden hand. And inescapably often accidentally the benefit of others that the cast off skins of forms can bring - to quote the most sage-like summary I can safely say I've heard at any time "Caring only about what those individuals were able to give to that which is impersonal, which is beyond all of our mortal lives, beyond ONA, THEM, beyond who and what ever.". A two -way street, public.
Not quoted from that passage you supplied is the sentiment of continued ignorance of the necessity for certain elements to exist, even ugly ones, hated ones, against which other rally or fulmigate and produce new strains:

"Whilst there is necessity for harmonious elements in the creation of a given form there is also equal necessity for the ugly processes in this same creation. Such forces involve as examples, the archetype of the Fool in a lesser offensive role and the Traitor in the more offensive. Both of whom, though perhaps hated, ridiculed or reviled, are integral to any alchemical creation. Time-honoured archetypes that form the numinous pathway of all stories, visible villains or invisible shadows whom define the experiences and Role of the Hero, Overman, Champion. Every fool serves a purpose, and essential seeds and growth come from the introduction of their element". - The Reality and Role and Lead and Gold.

And the blindness that if certain forms don't exist, that certain forms cannot grow, and the realization that for certain forms to grow, certain forms must exist, or be created. (Diary V, Arte of Shape-Shifting) (Also see, 'An Analysis of ONA's 'In the Sky of Dreaming'). There is, as we've been saying for a very long time, a Dis-connect between what people say, what they say they are doing, and what they do. Sometimes you have to trick people into seeing the mirror for themselves. Think about it.
Ryan's character has always been morally high-horsed, affable, cheerful, his name deliberately chosen because it reflects those qualities, his character has often been the first one to admit doubt, weakness, failure, humility, emotion, outrage, passion and righteousness, above all, a sickly sweet superiority characteristic of Jesus and or other Messiah type archetypes. Don't think it didn't turn the authors stomach, but that was his role. And a lengthy experiment. But as indicated in several places, RA's reign is over and now Everything is Hollow. Do you honestly think that what is written as regards any sort of admission/confession is attached to the writer? That writers are not magicians? These skins are not the Sentiments of the Author, they are the same vein of getting inside the head of the observer as was done long ago with the Heresy Manuscript to appeal and imitate the psychological predisposition of the Tempel ov Blood to thrust open the gates and extract what was desired. There is no 'Altruism' in THEM. Humans are food. All humans. and all Forms.
HK is an author. This is Mythos. Ryan Anschauung is the unpublished Diary number 7. RA, IS the Book of Rising Qaos. It's a new (or ancient pending perspective) way of writing stories and changing the future. I'm not alone in doing it. This is the Age of the Absurd. Of ABSU.
If you don't like Science Fiction, don't read it... all you have to do is play your part and get involved in it with or without knowing it. That's magic.

I anticipate predictable sequential replies and challenges. I won't post the full article of The Psychology of Satanism, but will just close with this quote from the end of it:

"Though much could be added to this manuscript regarding other psychological precepts used, (See Vol. V) I think enough has been said for others to build their own Tradition if they believe they have the nous shown by the ONA."

Exhibit A: The Temple of THEM


Edited by Khk (03/14/14 10:08 PM)

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#85733 - 03/15/14 01:46 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Khk]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Khk
Spot on Agni. [...] Firstly, 'Ryan Anschauung' is not a person. He is an avatar. Secondly, he is the archetype of the Saviour, the Messiah...


KHK, are you feeling okay?


 Quote:

Aryan Weltanschauung


This is cleaver! I have an anagram making program. Here are some anagrams of Aryan Weltanschauung:

Clean, raw, naughty anus.
Alas uncanny huge wart!
An unnatural gay chews.
Huge causal nanny wart.
Enchant a runaway slug.
Warty anal eunuch nags.
A scrawny huge anal nut.
A huge carnal nut yawns.
Raw as any unclean thug.
Gay as unnatural wench.
Watch near an ugly anus.
A raw cute nanny laughs.

 Quote:

It's a new (or ancient pending perspective) way of writing stories and changing the future. I'm not alone in doing it. This is the Age of the Absurd. Of ABSU.

If you don't like Science Fiction, don't read it... all you have to do is play your part and get involved in it with or without knowing it.


It's almost like the Rocky Horror Picture Show! Where the audience also participates?
_________________________
Chloe 352

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#85742 - 03/15/14 11:21 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: Caladrius]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6847
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
I'm not alone in doing it. This is the Age of the Absurd. Of ABSU.


An analogy for this is, Ryan is the quintessential Al Hazred, the Mad Arab.

Once you've waded in the Abzu, there's no return. At least, not in the same state.

I always say that insanity is either wielded by the Occultist, or it commands the Occultist. Esoterically, you can certainly pull yourself inside out.

 Quote:
KHK, are you feeling okay?


^What an absurd question ;\)
_________________________
SINJONES.com

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#85746 - 03/15/14 01:46 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SIN3]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Once you've waded in the Abzu, there's no return. At least, not in the same state

As AL noted in a letter dated 118yf after recalling some incidents from the 70s and 80's, incidents documented by others outside of the O9A -

"The psyche of the O9A is contagious and can break others, or bring them misfortune, or drive them toward inner breakdown or even madness."

He would reuse this sentence, in a slightly altered form, a year later in a polemical article.

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#85759 - 03/15/14 10:55 PM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6847
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
As AL noted in a letter dated 118yf after recalling some incidents from the 70s and 80's, incidents documented by others outside of the O9A -


I think anyone even mildly interested in the intricacy of the mind would be hip to it. Though, people get mind-fucked by a hell of a lot less.

I must say, it is fascinating to watch ;\)
_________________________
SINJONES.com

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#85771 - 03/16/14 06:35 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: SIN3]
kerriscott Offline
member


Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 136
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
people get mind-fucked by a hell of a lot less

Here's what Ryan - aka A.F. and now aka The Saviour, The Messiah - wrote a few years ago:
 Quote:
I had heard the name of the ONA mentioned in my travels. (I found) Satanism – An Introductory Guide for Prospective Adherents and upon opening and reading it my heart beat fast and my eyes grew wide. I was a changed man. In awe I read on (...) In the very first few sentences of the document named above, the vastness of its scope and its depth, I was suitably impressed to look deeper (...) I had finally found the very grail I had been hunting for (...) The ONA was deep – incredibly so.

The ONA had taught me about the forces that control others and that sought to control me (...) This terrible mind-trap takes many people to their spiritual doom.

Furthermore, notice how Ryan now attempts to explain himself:

 Originally Posted By: Khk
a lengthy experiment.

So passé, so very plebal, and so very much expected.

Readers with long memories will know just how many times in the last fifteen years some anonymous internet person has - often on some forum or other and often after having been shown up - used the retrospective excuse of having all the time been 'undertaking a clandestine experiment' with or on the O9A (or on some O9A person or other) with the purported purpose of this alleged experiment having been to 'prove' something or other, usually how brilliant or detached or clever they really really really are. A classic case (about ten years ago) was someone using the nym 'nospam'.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
I must say, it is fascinating to watch

It's certainly now far more amusing! If not somewhat instructive.

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#85774 - 03/16/14 11:33 AM Re: The Temple of THEM 2011 [Re: kerriscott]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal