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#52633 - 04/10/11 04:58 PM Belief is the Death of Intelligence
Mister Cage Offline
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Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
When someone settles on belief... those who say they believe this or that to be true, they may have just then, at that moment, (ultimately) lessened/weakend their potential, knowledge and value ( i say value because your intelligence and knowledge isnt only important to you alone) from otherwise peeking for themselves. This may seem harsh, i know, but its true. They are relying on pistis (faith) instead of doing the works necessary to reveal the truth.

Its in these works that are required which will ultimately build and fortify his/her intelligence, potential, value and knowledge ect...ect..so on and so forth.

Only a fool mistakes knowlege for intelligence.

The hardwon work of the individual is what builds the initiate. It not only builds but strengthens her intelligence level and capabilities so he/she may harbor "more" knowledge, the knowledge thats necessary to create. Searching to find more permanent and efficient ways, previously unknown, to anchor knowledge. After all...everything we do is to create. (My personal theory anyway) Theres not one thing we do that doesnt create some sort of situation, outcome, reaction, goal...ect. Creation isnt just for the artist, but all of us. And through the work the alternate knowledges are found.

Belief is for the lazy and incompetent. Without knowing first hand you know nothing. Do the work necessary to know the truth if, of course, its the truth your seeking. Belief and faith are easy to adopt as truths... but its not the "easy" us on the left are seeking. We, genuine LHP practitioners and seekers of Initiation, are not known for this, Initiation is not an easy thing, it can be absolutely excruciating and demanding...enveloping your entire life... sometimes it demands too much from me. Ruining or interupting relationships, occupation and structured education (schoolng/college). It not easy by far, otherwise everyone would be treading the path sinister.

Studying the occult requires hard work. Especially if you are like me and not only study it but practice as well. Sometimes it involves crawlng around on your belly dusting off old books in the local libraries basement or climbing into an attic out witting spiders for your grandfathers occult manifest he took back from Germany during WWII.

The path we tread is not easy and settling for belief just doesnt cut it in our feild. It could mean a rituals positive outcome, that fine line for the working to actually work. But theres so many more reason to know first hand. Do the math on how important truth is to you. For some it may not be important...it is for me.

But belief is not enough...i say its the death of intelligence and knowledge for great reasons. Think...how many times have you went looking or reading for a truth and were side tracked along the way and found dozens of other things, you never knew you were looking for, on the way of your initial inquest which stemmed and branch off into many other conquests and journeys? You'll feel like Indiana Jones, hell... If your motivated and ambitious enough you could find yourself swinging a damn machette on a personal crusade. You end up obtaining boatloads of information you never knew prior...just from seeking out "one" truth for yourself? When of course you could have just believed it when you just assumed it so or because someone elses best friends roomate read it somewhere and thought so too.

Its the intelligence expansion and alterate knowledges you obtain while on the path of seeking the truth. ;\)

Hence...why belief is indeed the death of knowledge and intelligence.







Edited by Mister Cage (04/10/11 05:07 PM)
Edit Reason: grammar.

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#53149 - 04/19/11 01:06 PM Re: Belief is the Death of Intelligence [Re: Mister Cage]
KrisPiss Offline
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Registered: 04/18/11
Posts: 2
Loc: Bergen, Norway
I agree with almost everything you say here. I have a need to get knowledge of things I wonder about, and curiosity just drives us longer to find information.

But when it comes to belief, I hope I don't misunderstand you now, but it seems that you mean someone like christians don't do anything else than praying and worshipping their god and so on and so on. But you can also look at their bible as a guide to a happy life, because I myself know quite a few christians and they have a very good life, and they work hard and some even work overtime at work even if they don't get paid for it. They even have their own little library of very interesting books!

Me defending christians here was just an example of how people can misunderstand other people and their beliefs. I am a Satanist who don't acctually like christianity, because of many reasons. But there are positive things about beliefs.
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#53240 - 04/20/11 11:13 PM Re: Belief is the Death of Intelligence [Re: KrisPiss]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
First, is there not enough diversity that to think to suggest there is a 'we' that 'walk a path' is fraught with risk of .... Hey, its you that are standing up for truth.

Your notion is simplistic enough to be wrong, belief is not a death of intelligence, it is in fact, a context. And even where the belief, say in Creationism, is at odds with physical evidence - I assert it is far more common to hold yet question a Creationist belief than to truly believe it blindly and completely.

And really, all Creationism is, is an extreme sort of conformation bias. And when it comes to confirmation bias, there is no one exempt. We all have a model of the world that we promote by ignoring or dismissing information and arguments against, and remembering only where our world model is demonstrated to be right.

Now Anton LaVey, Peter Carrol and Austin Osman Spare all agree on one thing: magic is anti-intellectual. Satan is powerful because as Westerners we were introduced to Satan as being powerful as small children, our inner child already believes in Satan 100%. If you can just shut up your conscious mind, you can test the power in your a primal self that BELIEVES.

In Chaos Magic, belief is considered as important as desire or 'gnosis'. But the distinction you don't see, is that belief can be 'opted into' and 'opted out of'.

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#53257 - 04/21/11 12:48 PM Re: Belief is the Death of Intelligence [Re: myk5]
Mister Cage Offline
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Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
 Originally Posted By: myk5
We all have a model of the world that we promote by ignoring or dismissing information and arguments against, and remembering only where our world model is demonstrated to be right.


As you have demonstrated well here replying to the topic. My philosophy of belief being the death of intelligence does not fit your model of your universe either subjectively or objectively, i couldn't say, but it is clear. The only difference here is that you chose not to dismiss it entirely but instead take an antinomian stance to create a bit of friction over my example or stance not promoting or cultivating your model. But i'll ask why you chose to if your initial stance was that "our own model" is just that... our own.

Never mistake gnosis for pistis my friend.

 Originally Posted By: myk5
In Chaos Magic, belief is considered as important as desire or 'gnosis'. But the distinction you don't see, is that belief can be 'opted into' and opted out of'.


I am in total agreement with you concerning belief in accordance to the Arts. Absolutely true in my opinion. This is not indigenous to Chaos currents and systems of magic, most Intent based magical systems rely on Belief. However myk, by this reply of yours it seems you've missed my point all together. I stressed that belief being the death of intelligence in accordance to anothers "memory" or "view" in relay to you.

Example: Because a book says so doesnt make it true.

Because a friends sisters best friends roomate said "this is how it happend" doesnt mean its true.

Because it worked for you doesnt mean it will work for me. This does not make the Working genuinely effective for you.

We must do the work ourselves to find out whether we believe it to be true or false, this is best gained by source. Through this process we gain intelligences that aid in our becoming. Once we stop the act of "work" we then Kill the possibility of gaining these said intelligences. I encourage you re-read my initial topic with this in mind.

Do you now understand the concept i have provoked?

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#53786 - 05/01/11 01:31 PM Re: Belief is the Death of Intelligence [Re: Mister Cage]
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
Well under my belief system:

I see reality as contigent upon the observer, the concept known as "weltanschuang" (I think I spelled that right)- meaning "world view". This relates to Einstein's relativity. The best way to think of this is imagine you are sitting on a comet in outer space which is flying at 10,000 miles per hour. You appear to be sitting still. Another person is sitting on a rock going the other direction at 10k per hour. It appears that he zooms past you at 20k. How fast is he really going? It all depends on your point of view- if you travel the same speed as him in the same direction it appears he's not moving.

A simpler version- we sit on earth. Earth is rotating and moving around, but we see it as not moving. If we fly into outer space it is moving. Or the earth appears flat for our purposes but then is round in the bigger picture.

Judeo-Christianity by contrasts believes there is an ultimate truth outside of man and this is a universal truth valid for all people. Truth is relative to the observer.

I promote "faith" because faith is a confidence in what one believes. Without this confidence we probably would not be as effective in life. However if we have faith in something totally wrong then it may harm us. But it's not the faith that harms us- it is the false belief. Beliefs are not harmful- false ones are. People believe false things because they are stupid, manipulated, don't have enough facts etc.

Modern western society is based on an anti-christian notion of the "scientific method" which is what i believe you are getting at. This means that we base our beliefs upon observation and reason and are willing to constantly change our beliefs according to new observation.

I believe the two can be balanced. Christians believe things even when they contradict observation and reason. They believe these things because they are weak inside and need some authority figure to guide them or to crawl into some fantasy. Again it's not faith itself which is harmful but rather the weakness and the entire religion and culture of the person.

The problem with discovering everything ourselves is that it lowers the level we operate on. We cannot learn everything from scratch in a lifetime. We only stand high because we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. we learn from others, but always apply it with a bit of skepticism.

Obviously many books are deceptive as are people's words and actions. This is the principle of the occult- we must have reasoning ability to discover for ourselves what is true and what isn't. Intelligence is the ability to reason. However intelligence is enhanced by knowledge because we reason based upon what we know and observe.

By contrast knowledge alone does not enhance intelligence. A person can be a walking encyclopedia but without the ability to reason and formulate on his own.

Christian belief is the death of intelligence. This belief stems from weakness and needing to be told what to do at every move though. Weakness therefore is the death of intelligence- the triumph of the will- the will to power that is the beginning of all intelligence. Even if we are totally weak and powerless outside of ourselves within our own mind we can still be strong in that way and thus intelligent.

Faith in a certain system is not necessarily the death of intelligence though. Though the system probably should be somewhat pragmatic and open to interpretation and new experience as well. Satanism itself is a belief system, for example.


Edited by Thule (05/01/11 01:36 PM)
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#53788 - 05/01/11 01:37 PM Re: Belief is the Death of Intelligence [Re: Thule]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3883
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Firstly, anything you hold as 'true' is by default a belief. Even knowledge can only be defined as 'justified true belief' in it's rawest sense.

Secondly, why is this thread in 'encyclopedia project'? I think you have missed the purpose and intent of this forum.
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#53902 - 05/02/11 11:06 PM Re: Belief is the Death of Intelligence [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mister Cage Offline
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Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread


Secondly, why is this thread in 'encyclopedia project'? I think you have missed the purpose and intent of this forum.


Yes Dan. For some reason i posted it here, when i was reviewing the philosophy board. I must have bounced out some how and when i "thought" i was back in i posted my topic...not until days later did i notice it was in this forum. Is there a way we can relocate it? Its a decent topic and people are responding.

Thank you in advance for your time and understanding if we can.


I moved the thread..... Morgan


Edited by Morgan (05/03/11 09:59 AM)
Edit Reason: info re move

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#54314 - 05/10/11 11:20 PM Re: Belief is the Death of Intelligence [Re: Mister Cage]
Mister Cage Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
 Originally Posted By: Mister Cage

I moved the thread..... Morgan


Thank you cutie!

Now its not a one-liner. \:\)

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#60869 - 11/02/11 03:08 PM Re: Belief is the Death of Intelligence [Re: Mister Cage]
Albert Cool Offline
banned for etc...
stranger


Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 6
we cant question everything just for the sake of being logical.
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#60870 - 11/02/11 03:10 PM Re: Belief is the Death of Intelligence [Re: Albert Cool]
Alex Crowley Offline
member


Registered: 08/17/11
Posts: 131
Loc: Johannesburg, South Africa
 Originally Posted By: Albert Cool
we cant question everything just for the sake of being logical.

Try not to post one-liners around here or you'll probably be banned. I suggest you read through the forum rules first. And by the way, welcome!

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#60874 - 11/02/11 03:15 PM Re: Belief is the Death of Intelligence [Re: Alex Crowley]
Albert Cool Offline
banned for etc...
stranger


Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 6
 Originally Posted By: Alex Crowley
 Originally Posted By: Albert Cool
we cant question everything just for the sake of being logical.

Try not to post one-liners around here or you'll probably be banned. I suggest you read through the forum rules first. And by the way, welcome!

I will definitely take care of that

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#60875 - 11/02/11 03:19 PM Re: Belief is the Death of Intelligence [Re: Albert Cool]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3883
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Albert Cool
 Originally Posted By: Alex Crowley
 Originally Posted By: Albert Cool
we cant question everything just for the sake of being logical.

Try not to post one-liners around here or you'll probably be banned. I suggest you read through the forum rules first. And by the way, welcome!

I will definitely take care of that


This made me laugh.

Some stupidity is so profound it takes your breath away. Like a really good piece of art, or the grand canyon. Albert Einstein was surely right about this one.
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#60883 - 11/02/11 05:42 PM Re: Belief is the Death of Intelligence [Re: Mister Cage]
halfchaos Offline
temp ban
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Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 57
Loc: ^NY
Such is to believe that belief itself carries permanence. Personally I do not think that it does. My belief is never permanent, it is always evolving into something better. That is how I create my own fantastical perception of my reality.

You are not clearly saying that to believe is to be lazy. To be specific you are claiming that your belief is lazy. My belief is a catalyst to other things because I personally am not restricted by "herd conformity".

I do not seek God or Master, because I am God and Master.

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#61113 - 11/04/11 11:09 PM Re: Belief is the Death of Intelligence [Re: Mister Cage]
voxintus Offline
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Registered: 10/29/11
Posts: 7
Loc: northern california
Belief can be the death of thinking. People that say that it was "gods will" are basically just idiots in my view. when you look at the world you see that in countries with a more theocratic governing system are often living in the middle ages. Belief can make people think they have answers that no human being can have. Then we end up with suicide bombers,pedophile priests, stonings, martyrdom, the american christian right wing. All of these things caused by people believing that their god is right and that if they do his will they'll get this or that. Its all nonsense and it ends up making a virtue out if not thinking. Very sad. That's it
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#61117 - 11/05/11 01:23 AM Re: Belief is the Death of Intelligence [Re: voxintus]
felixgarnet Offline
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Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
The belief that something is worthy of examination and perusal is not unintelligent - quite the opposite. To dismiss something without making the effort to study it in the pre-established belief that this can't be worthwhile isn't too bright, either.
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