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#53478 - 04/25/11 04:48 PM Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions
arjunasAscent Offline
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How do LaVeyan, Setian and Thelemic world views differ with respect to magic(k) and self-realization? What do these terms mean to each?
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#53493 - 04/25/11 11:36 PM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: arjunasAscent]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
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Do some research on your own here.
Read the forums.
Learn to understand and grasp ideas without the need to have the answers spoon fed to you.

The answers are already here, you just have to get up off your ass and find them.

Morgan
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#53496 - 04/26/11 02:59 AM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: Morgan]
arjunasAscent Offline
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Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 69
Loc: PA, US
Youre entitled to that perspective which i respectfully reject. This is research.
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#53498 - 04/26/11 04:08 AM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: arjunasAscent]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I don't think it is possible to respectfully reject the advice of a Mod. A Mod on a site of which you are a guest. A site which has rules that specify certain standards that those who use said site are to uphold. Either you failed to read and understand them or you are willfully disregarding them. Either way, you do so at your own peril.

This is not The Encyclopedia Satanica - then again maybe it is. Whether or not that is the case, I highly doubt anyone is here to entertain the questions of those who are too lazy to do a little more research on their own so they can pose a more specific question.

Rethink your approach. Or do not. The choice is yours.
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#53499 - 04/26/11 07:24 AM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: arjunasAscent]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Your second post since creating your account, and it's to tell a Moderator to basically "fuck off".....

What was that loud sound?

Ah yes, I believe it was a sonic boom created by the speed of the banhammer descending upon you.
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#53505 - 04/26/11 11:27 AM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: Nemesis]
arjunasAscent Offline
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Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 69
Loc: PA, US
I don't recall insulting anyone. If having an opinion gets you banned, so be it. I'd still appreciate answers from forum members. The question is legitimate and answers valuable to the entire community, wouldn't you agree?
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Words are mere sound and smoke dimming the heavenly light - Goethe

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#53506 - 04/26/11 11:40 AM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: arjunasAscent]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: arjunasAscent
If having an opinion gets you banned, so be it.


Looking back to your initial post... you didn't state an opinion, you asked a question.

This, in and of itself, isn't a big deal at all but the particular question you asked has been covered ad nauseum in the forums already as this is a rather long established place.

Most members have already discussed their opinions on the topic in a large variety of threads available herein (hence Morgan's nudge to go look for them).

What's missing, I suppose, IS your opinion (since you are the new one posing the question).

"How do LaVeyan, Setian and Thelemic world views differ with respect to magic(k) and self-realization?"

How do they differ to you?

"What do these terms mean to each?"

What do they mean to you?
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#53507 - 04/26/11 11:43 AM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: Fnord]
arjunasAscent Offline
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Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 69
Loc: PA, US
Read my second post, that's an opinion.

Edited by arjunasAscent (04/26/11 11:43 AM)
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#53509 - 04/26/11 11:48 AM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: arjunasAscent]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
I'm getting rather used to trying to engage new users at my own intellectual peril.

At this point, it's obvious you have no real interest in contributing to even your own discussion thread.

Welcome to my ignore list, it's quickly becoming a popular place.
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#53510 - 04/26/11 11:53 AM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: Fnord]
arjunasAscent Offline
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Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 69
Loc: PA, US
If you gave me a second I was about to address your question.
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Words are mere sound and smoke dimming the heavenly light - Goethe

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#53512 - 04/26/11 12:12 PM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: arjunasAscent]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
None is stopping you from addressing Fnord's question.

This far, you're not really doing yourself a favor. You ask a question under the excuse of "research" while this should imply you doing the actual research instead of desiring it to be handed to you, by us.

Why would we bother at all if you provide nothing in return?

D.

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#53513 - 04/26/11 12:37 PM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: arjunasAscent]
arjunasAscent Offline
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Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 69
Loc: PA, US
 Quote:
How do LaVeyan, Setian and Thelemic world views differ with respect to magic(k) and self-realization? (How do they differ to you?). What do these terms mean to each? (your opinion)


I can't speak with authority for Setian or LaVeyan views even though I think I have a good idea of what they embrace. But here's what I know about Thelema...

Thelemic magick works on several planes- physical, mental, and astral. The ultimate aim of all Thelemic magick is to attain conversation with the HGA (Holy Guardian Angel), otherwise known as the higher self, or God-Self, and in so doing acquiring an understanding of one's Will and control over the passions. Aleister Crowley's Liber Samekh, otherwise known as Theurgia Goetia Summa (ritual of higher invocation), or Congresus cum Daemone (Union with Genius), is generally used for that purpose. Self-realization and Magick are intrinsically tied. The framework for self realization is built around egyptian deities. Nuit represents the infinite, Hadit the singularity, the union of both principles (Ra-Hoor-Khuit/Hoor-par-krat) the manifested paradox of infinite singularities, the HGA in us. Some people draw similarities between Thelema and Satanism, they both emphasize indulgence over asceticism.


Edited by arjunasAscent (04/26/11 01:04 PM)
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#53518 - 04/26/11 04:00 PM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: arjunasAscent]
The Zebu Offline
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Actually knowledge and conversation of the HGA is only the "first step" of real Thelemic magic. The Guardian Angel is only a guide to lead the initiate towards higher states of being. Ideally, the highest grades of achievement (such as the "Ipsissimus") signify that the individual has evolved beyond the need for such guides.

Thelema and Satanism have some similarities. They are both alchemical paths of occultism with some diabolic overtones and generally libertine morality. Thelema, however, is a structured religion. Satanism is not, it being more freeform, chaotic, and antinomian.

I cannot vouch for Setianism, given my limited experience with their material.
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#53522 - 04/26/11 04:36 PM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: The Zebu]
arjunasAscent Offline
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Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 69
Loc: PA, US
Thanks for the excellent feedback Zebu.
 Quote:
Actually knowledge and conversation of the HGA is only the "first step" of real Thelemic magic.

Ofcourse the HGA is not some alien entity, but the "higher" mind, the counterpart to the Ego. An adept does not cease to communicate with the HGA, but there's no need for an overt manifestation. The Adept is in control of his passions. As for reaching higher states of being, that's in the realm of speculation and mysticism but not necessarily untrue.

Good stuff Zebu.


Edited by arjunasAscent (04/26/11 04:45 PM)
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#53524 - 04/26/11 05:12 PM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: arjunasAscent]
arjunasAscent Offline
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Posts: 69
Loc: PA, US
I would've hoped for a Setian perspective. My understanding is the Setian strives for Xeper, a path of Self-evolution leading to Self-Realization or Thelemic Attainment. He does this through mostly non-ritualistic magic that expresses the principle of Remanifestation, which seems equivalent to Thelemic Will. Their belief is Xeper is only possible through active remanifestation and leads to the embodiment of the essence of the Prince of Darkness. I'm not so well informed on Setian cosmology however.

Edited by arjunasAscent (04/26/11 05:30 PM)
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Words are mere sound and smoke dimming the heavenly light - Goethe

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#53526 - 04/26/11 05:58 PM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: arjunasAscent]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
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See, that wasn't so hard, was it? You brought something to the table and you were met in kind.

 Quote:
I would've hoped for a Setian perspective.


I'm sure Aquino will chime in at some point; he's probably your best bet on gaining some insight into Setian theology on this site.

Alternatively, you could always go here.
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#53533 - 04/26/11 07:44 PM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: arjunasAscent]
Iskander Offline
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Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 70
Loc: Berlin, Germany
 Originally Posted By: arjunasAscent
How do LaVeyan, Setian and Thelemic world views differ with respect to magic(k) and self-realization? What do these terms mean to each?


LaVeyan: The Satanist gains power in the world by fulfilling his personal needs. (Indulgence / Left Hand Path)

Setian: The Setian gains power in the world by developing and expanding his inner self in accordance to his own will. (Xeper / Left Hand Path)

Thelemic: The Thelemite gains illumination by dissolving his personal will in the universal will of the cosmos. (Thelema / Right Hand Path)

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#53556 - 04/27/11 11:07 AM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: Iskander]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Iskander
Thelemic: The Thelemite gains illumination by dissolving his personal will in the universal will of the cosmos. (Thelema / Right Hand Path)


I would argue that the Thelemic path really is to find the individuals True Will (which is always present) and that it is already a part of the universal will. It is not a matter of being separate and striving towards dissolution as it is a path to understand how things already are. The individual will is alreay part of the cosmos, it is already in harmony with it but the Thelemic path is there to realize this.

That is how I have come to understand it anyway. It is alot like buddhism in that way. It is a realization of what is (or is not perhaps) rather than an active going (like the Setians who think they are and can be even more separated from the universal order through initiation).

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#53561 - 04/27/11 02:43 PM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: TheInsane]
Iskander Offline
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Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 70
Loc: Berlin, Germany
I agree, you give an accurate describtion of the thelemic point of view. Thelema is similar to buddhism, because it is a mystic concept, thus it belongs to the Right Hand Path.

From a setian point of view, human will is something unique and un-natural. While the Thelemite believes in only one True Will that manifests itself in different persons, the Setian believes in diverse True Wills - there are as many True Wills as thinking individuals.

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#53562 - 04/27/11 02:50 PM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: TheInsane]
arjunasAscent Offline
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Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 69
Loc: PA, US
<comment removed>

Edited by arjunasAscent (04/27/11 03:07 PM)
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#53565 - 04/27/11 03:09 PM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: arjunasAscent]
Iskander Offline
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Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 70
Loc: Berlin, Germany
 Originally Posted By: arjunasAscent
Man has a place in the cosmic order


Again: In mystical paradigms like Thelema it is like that, yes. But not in LHP-paradigms like Setianism.

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#53773 - 05/01/11 03:38 AM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: Iskander]
arjunasAscent Offline
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Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 69
Loc: PA, US
I see what you're saying... thinking this through a bit more I suspect the key differentiator amongst paradigms is the relationship between order and chaos and how that relationship is interpreted.

At least at a very abstract level.


Edited by arjunasAscent (05/01/11 03:48 AM)
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#53934 - 05/04/11 09:27 AM Re: Magic and Self-Realization is LHP traditions [Re: arjunasAscent]
Iskander Offline
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Registered: 09/21/10
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Well, in LHP-paradigms order is established for a limited time, depending on the will / power of the initiates who bring this order into being. Chaos is the pure potential of all concrete changes in the world .

A Thelemite like Crowley sees an universal order that is not to be established but to be found.


Edited by Iskander (05/04/11 09:28 AM)

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