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#53764 - 04/30/11 09:06 PM Pragmatism
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
I see this site talks a lot about "pragmatism". What do they mean? Are members meeting in person, are they setting goals and working towards them? I'm not sure exactly what actions are being done here.

I say this because I myself am interested in pragmatic action, goal setting, networking and doing things in real life. I'm just not sure what this group is already involved in doing.
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#53768 - 05/01/11 12:01 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
Shea Offline
member


Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 108
Loc: Chicago
I suspect that many of my personal goals in life wouldn't be helped by, or appreciated by, strangers I met in an online forum. I've noticed that I don't necessarily appreciate the company of other LHP-ers any more than I would a person of another philosophical orientation.

Personally, this is more my market place of ideals; a hobby to kill time in a more constructive way than jerking off (sometimes) or watching old horror flicks.

What kind of "pragmatic" action are you looking for?

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#53770 - 05/01/11 12:25 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Shea]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Shea


Personally, this is more my market place of ideals; a hobby to kill time in a more constructive way than jerking off (sometimes) or watching old horror flicks.


OR??? OR??? Do I have to choose? ;\)
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#53771 - 05/01/11 01:12 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I'm here to interact with human beings who aren't insane like the ones I have known to exist in real life. People who may or may not be rational, yet I have seen so far that there is much positive understanding to be had through exercising ones mind with perhaps greater minds who are more rational than mine.

I've certainly changed my ideas since coming here, I change my views like the wind because I don't have any, I'm nihilist and everything is superficially ambiguous to me, a world of unpredictable insanity, yet my ideas of Satanism have gone from extreme misanthropy and nihilism to seeing that others can be humanistic, at least entertain the thoughts online, challenging ideas rather than to immediately side with established beliefs. Quite saddening to know that so few people are Satanist—to be in the company of wolves baring teeth rather than a backstabbing pecking order of chickens, I'm sure some will agree.

I am still going to the gym and reading at home as I always do, but I have gotten a positive outlook for a percentage maybe, I may write questionable things but I am often pleased to see the positive reactions (bad idea to agree with my misanthropic black and white ideas, they lead to grey nihilism). I doubt humanity vastly yet always seem to be proven wrong on here, which I can appreciate.

Maybe some changes are in order for my lifestyle rather than being a hermit at the woods with my laptop. I weight train and box almost daily, this is the only time I interact with people aside from online and there is not much talking. I've not knocked on another persons house for years. Nobody comes to wherever I am living, and I am glad (this what's maybe wrong).

I can say that I have only gotten positive enthusiasm from interactions on this site. Nothing out of the ordinary goes on at my place by design, I live much like a Zen monk, I drink water, pass water, study, exercise, and when tired, I lay down. My life has been complete chaos and violence so mindfulness is a new thing for me. Pragmatism can wait while I adjust to the silence and keep up my health.

Sometimes a pragmatic goal is merely something to aim at?
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#53784 - 05/01/11 01:11 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Hegesias]
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
I have lived my life in a similar way avoiding people, keeping to myself etc. because most people I meet I consider them to be stupid and deeply flawed. They are so deeply ingrained in their flaws that they feel no shame about it, therefore it's useless to debate with them or try to change them, it is just what they are.

Over time I have realized though that this has left me at a severe disadvantage in life. Despite being more intelligent or having superior traits in other ways I tend to be at the bottom of the pecking order of society, a perpetual victim because I am a loner.

Teamwork is thus the key. I love that statement about the chickens pecking at each other's back compared to wolves bearing teeth. These chickens are able to be successful because they are interacting with each other.

I am interested in making contacts. I will not let anybody and everybody into my world. But slowly over time I get to know people. I measure people's character. I am working on my own brotherhoods and organizations. We are about being EXCLUSIVE. However even people not inolved in my own organization- it's usefull to network as much as possible.

It's difficult for me because I don't like interacting with people generally. But I realize that is simply because they are not like me. I would probably be a millionaire if I had a small group of similar people to work with. Instead I live in poverty. It really makes a huge difference having a community.

More or less I have to expose myself and put myself out in the public in order to meet people. Those people who I find incompatible with me I'll just ignore them but those who I like I will invite further and further into my inner circle.

Pragmatism-

People with similar goals share knowledge. This knowledge is power. Such as the best occult techniques, manifesting etc. I have studied the occult deeply and I'm a bit of a natural psychic but I rarely do a spell or even do the meditations I should be doing. I just find it far more useful to get a degree in business and take over a fortune 500 company rather than sacrifice a goat in the woods and tell myself I'm power. Therefore I'm much more interested in the pragmatic and real world side of Satanism though I do not neglect the value of manifesting and other spiritual techniques. But this is one goal- share information on optimal health, optimal psychological manipulation, optimal spell work etc.

Of course I could practice 24 hours a day and become very powerful psychically but it does me little good given my situation. We can't all be experts in everything. So for my purposes I just look for the most simple and effective techniques in that realm.

Next economic cooperation. For example I am interested in real estate investment. But I don't have the money. HOwever if 10 or 20 people pulled their resources together they could buy a property with very little money from each person. Then use the profits from that to buy another property etc.

Next- protection. If people f*&^% with me I would have a group of "friends" who would be willing to take care of such problems.

I have suffered a lot in my life because my neighbors, family etc. are self destructive morons. I feel the quality of my life would change dramatically if I could just live, interact, work and play around intelligent, self responsible people. One goal is I want to live behind a gated EXCLUSIVE community at some point in my life.

I'm focused on being successful. Pragmatism to me means to go out and DO things and to also adjust our goals and actions to the situation rather than rigidly following a set way of doing things.

Discussing theories online at some point doesn't accomplish much in our personal lives. I want to organize with people and achieve real power. For example someone like Bill Gates has more real power than probably any Satanist you will meet online. It's not all about spells and potions its about using the occult to enhance your personal life and give you that edge but not to rely on it as crutch for failures in other realms of life.

I hate being weak, powerless, living in a f&^ed up world etc. So I seek team work to empower myself and to reach for collective goals. This is what the real satanists do. Unfortunately though I am not a member of those circles.

The real Satanists run the UN, are running the Freemasons and Illuminati. I have thought about joining some of these secret societies but the problem is I must start way at the bottom and by the time I crawl up in rank where it becomes useful to me I'll probably be an old man. There is a lot of deception and such that goes on in those groups and lot of doing what you are told, which I don't like. Still I might do that, but I also need my own group of people who are a little more focused on quickly accomplishing something as well.

Most secret societies are based on family lines. If your grandfather was a mason and your uncle, cousin etc. then you can join and move up quickly. Since my family is not involved I would be moving up at the rate of a snail and I would have to do a lot of social events and stupid rituals I probably don't feel like doing, then I would also have to pretend to care, which is very difficult for me to do. But as I said that may be one option for me to try. But its more effective just to cut past the BS and get to a group which is reaching goals faster.



Edited by Thule (05/01/11 01:17 PM)
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#53845 - 05/01/11 10:33 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
Pragmatism is not a potentiality to be actualized sometime in the future, but is always the basic nature of humans. At each and every moment in the ever-changing movement of humans, pragmatism manifests itself as 'thus-comes' and 'thus-goes'. A distinction between pragmatism (potentiality) and humans (actuality) must be completely overcome and realized here and now at each and every moment.

Pragmatism is aware of human finetutde, and realizes evanescence common to all things which is only grasped here and now at each and every moment of our ever-changing world.

Ciao.
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#53947 - 05/04/11 04:18 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: paolo sette]
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
well my focus is on results rather than just endless debate, talk and dreaming. I guess that's what I think of when I hear pragmatism- results oriented. Very rare to find online. Or really in general. Most people just want to go to a job and be told what to do rather than work on a team or take any charge of their life.

A few of them go online and debate things- most of which tends to be nonsense and half educated. But it is just a way to pass time rather than a means to an end.

For me I am online mostly to discover knowledge which may be useful to me and to meet useful contacts, friends and associates.
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#53948 - 05/04/11 06:27 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: Thule
Most people just want to go to a job and be told what to do rather than work on a team or take any charge of their life.

A few of them go online and debate things- most of which tends to be nonsense and half educated. But it is just a way to pass time rather than a means to an end.


In the pursuit of every-day Life, it is often found that a determined Will alone does not achieve the end. For some personalities, certain shocks are needed to turn the Mind out of a groove. The needed shocks come in a form of intense emotional excitement such as anger, indignation, humiliation, etc. When the passions are excited to a certain degree, they acquire an extraordinary powerful Force to break through the limits of human consciousness which are generally set by the Self. In other words, an intense emotional disturbance Will awaken in a person a mysterious Force of which has otherwise been unawakened.

Like your likenesses, be averse to things you don't want, and don't attain the level of stupid indifference (vapidity).

I'm reminded of a passage I once read, and a sentence may be of use:

You limit yourself; it is not that you are not able to do this, but that you simply do not do it.

To break down the barrier of Self-imposed limitations, it is often necessary to excite a person through an extraordinary measure.

The-Infernal-One
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#53955 - 05/04/11 11:45 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: paolo sette]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I can relate Paolo Sette. I would like to think that self defined master morality could come to more peoples attentions, not just Satanism.

In general, "utilitarian" refers to a pragmatic view. Philosophical utilitarianism, however, is a broader view encompassing people's lives who seek "happiness". And what is happiness it if it not seeing ones will achieve what it sets out to do. The trouble with utilitarians is that they seek comfort and call this "happiness", making the best from an unfortunate situation rather than to create new opportunities. In looking at things this way we can see there is a distinction.

I look with suspicion on values such as compassion, pity, and selfless acts, as well as on equality pathos. In expressing the will to power, we embody natural human functioning; we may live the most different lives, and as such, we are positive, vitalised, and optimistic about those diversely alike hence we work together forming in line rather than to subjugate others will we work together bolstering one another's passions. The Overman need not slaves or followers to gage his strength, his alignment is with those of a common goal. So when somebody like me sees those around him tantalised by fantastic mediocrity, sycophantic whoredom and making the best from a bad situation without aspirations for improvement, it is insulting— the hunt for those who value life and affirm life is more dire— brimming with confidence.

Slave morality, is fearful, uncertain of themselves, slaves choose to be victims to play inhumane sympathy games. Slave morality is timid, and favours a limited existence; it makes the best of a bad situation. The great man creates his own morality, a higher morality which is life-affirming.

I have always believed a noble life lies in freedom, no remorse, with loyalty to ones high ideals. One draws rational thought and action in dire situation as it were, and is, mundane, this indifference is level-headedness and maybe indifference was a much too ambiguous term for me to use. There is a line between being passively apathetic and being cold-blooded dispassionate and rational.

Some of us (like me) may seem to be plain, ordinary, and nothing special by any standards of those who represent the semblance of propensity and experience without validity of competence— uniform, in the manner of children playing games. This is because I am ordinary and nothing special, my mortality is what drives me, not reflections of grandeur.

Many a utilitarian will be ignorant to critique not only because they are comfort seekers who fear the overman who express' the natural aristocracy of the will to power, but because a critique of mediocrity may conveniently consist of argumentum ad hominem for which the utilitarian can cite the critique as an undeveloped argument about particular utilitarian proponents. This is both fortunate and unfortunate, since such adeptness at attacking views exposes concealed assumptions hence turning the assumptions of its proponents against the principles the slave moralists defend. Individual happiness is looked upon as collective happiness for which there is no such thing— the world being made up of individuals all expressing the will to power, so what is happiness if it is not ones will being affirmed results?

The way of the meek contentment seeker who makes do with fantastic mediocrity, and pleased he is, he is free— unbeknownst to his prison of mediocrity, the utilitarian attempts to decommission natural selection. Chattering sycophantic words of peace whilst coveting his neighbours goods— ignoble soothsayers.


I would assume that if it were a mature and self aware response, a challenging and seemingly negative response to LaVeyan Satanism may be stemming from the inspiration to reach the Nietzschean maxim and express the will to power and attain our personalised high ideals, the affirmation of a lacking is the want to push thresholds. To critique what we see potential in is not the same as contrasting ones hubris with a convenient weakling.

As the ONA has manuscripts which present a vast array of opposites, and, that but one manuscript will be ambiguous unto another, it all depends on the evolution whence comes from the outcome of perspectivism on a large scale.

I have observed talk of LaVeyans being deemed as "egoistic and vain, a la LaVain Satanist" yet without any description of what "type of ego" such an assertion is as meaningless as to regard the ego of every egoistic human being as some kind of germ or disease— to deny he who is brimming with vitality, to deny the expression of the will to power.

Satanism, like all knowledge, can teach one to discard it in literal format and make from it a revaluation of ones own intrinsic values strengthening and preserving his own master morality through self understanding. If what results is darker still, then so be it, life itself is the will to power. May we strive for the Nietzschean maxim and dare to be ourselves.
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#53967 - 05/05/11 02:40 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
blackjeans Offline
Banned
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Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 8
Loc: kenya
sweet hegesias all u need is to be strong, apply all the ingrigients of magic and remain focused to accomplish your goals. i also share the the same challenge of loneliness that has excited my consideration to leave my country of birth and seek other satanists. i also feel in deep need of a team since i need to learn alot of Satanism, the materials available on the net are less than 15 percent and also considering my way of learning being different, i learn something when i need it and this makes me strong. This journey u chose will not always be smooth especially now we are on our young age into Satanism. Satanism is for the strong, be yourself and avoid setting on white filth. BE STRONG AND WHATEVER YOU CHOOSE TO INDULGE INTO, INDULGE FULLY with a strong will.
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#53972 - 05/05/11 03:39 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
Evin Offline
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Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 19
 Quote:
Those people who I find incompatible with me I'll just ignore them but those who I like I will invite further and further into my inner circle.


I'm curious. How do you know that those that you 'invite' won't ignore you? What is it that you offer?

 Quote:
I would probably be a millionaire if I had a small group of similar people to work with.


If you're weak when you're alone, you'll be weak in a group. Unless you plan on hanging onto the stronger members coattails. If they are stronger than you though, they won't let you. Why should they?

 Quote:
Next economic cooperation. For example I am interested in real estate investment. But I don't have the money. HOwever if 10 or 20 people pulled their resources together they could buy a property with very little money from each person. Then use the profits from that to buy another property etc.


Are you prepared to sit on that property for years? There is a surplus of foreclosed property on the market now.

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#53981 - 05/05/11 05:46 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: blackjeans]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"This journey u chose will not always be smooth especially now we are on our young age into Satanism. Satanism is for the strong, be yourself and avoid setting on white filth."

Not everyone on this site is young. A lot of members have been involved in Satanism for over 20 years, plus a lot of members are over 30.

"avoid setting on white filth."

Just what do you mean by this? Are you being racist?

M
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#53982 - 05/05/11 06:25 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Evin]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Evin
If you're weak when you're alone, you'll be weak in a group. Unless you plan on hanging onto the stronger members coattails. If they are stronger than you though, they won't let you. Why should they?


I think you underestimate the power and advantage of groups. It enlarges ones Will to Power exponentially and as such, is not to be neglected when trying to accomplish certain goals.

It is not because egocentrism is glorified by Satanism, one therefor becomes weak or must at all costs avoid groups.

D.

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#53984 - 05/05/11 07:18 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Diavolo]
Evin Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 19
 Quote:
I think you underestimate the power and advantage of groups.


No, that is not what I said. It's not groups that are the problem and are to be avoided.

A group is as strong as it's weakest link. If the leader is the weakest link, what good is the group?

The OP is trying to build a group out of his weakness, looking for strength in his group because he can't do it on his own. He said as much already. So what makes the OP think that anyone wants to be a part if his "exclusive" group?

He might be stronger than he thinks. Or, maybe not.

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#53995 - 05/06/11 05:40 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Evin]
Dark Beauty Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 13
I consider myself pragmatic, which is the reason I have found immense pleasure in solitude. As you explore and test your emotional and mental confines, you should be wise enough to take your self-knowledge and go out and manipulate the outside world to achieve your aims, if only for a few moments. Once your goal has been achieved, return to your lair to recharge in solitude.

One would think the Satanist knows when introversion best serves him, and when it does not. If one lives in a "celebrated" conformist society, he or she could still derive more benefit as an individual who seeks outlets that increase knowledge and creativity that will produce something tangible. How productive is it really to talk nonsense for hours in a group when their is a proposal waiting to be typed, investors waiting to be secured, or a book that has been floating around in your mind for years that needs to be committed to paper?

Often extreme intellectuals become paralyzed by their thoughts and simply lose their ability to produce. This is how one become less effective than a group, when in actuality, each member produces the least amount of work, at different levels of quality, to complete a project. Not to mention conflicts, differences of opinions and levels of skill sets which typically erode group success.

In groups one often has to submit to and praise some of the most intellectually frozen, egomaniacal, inferior, clueless, bubble-headed people for membership, and that's just to be allowed to listen to something which would sound much better coming out the other end of them. I know no matter how alone I may realize myself to be, a book of wisdom applied to my life, far outweighs the company of a group of idiots as a valuable companion.
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