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#53764 - 04/30/11 09:06 PM Pragmatism
Thule Offline
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I see this site talks a lot about "pragmatism". What do they mean? Are members meeting in person, are they setting goals and working towards them? I'm not sure exactly what actions are being done here.

I say this because I myself am interested in pragmatic action, goal setting, networking and doing things in real life. I'm just not sure what this group is already involved in doing.
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#53768 - 05/01/11 12:01 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
Shea Offline
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Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 108
Loc: Chicago
I suspect that many of my personal goals in life wouldn't be helped by, or appreciated by, strangers I met in an online forum. I've noticed that I don't necessarily appreciate the company of other LHP-ers any more than I would a person of another philosophical orientation.

Personally, this is more my market place of ideals; a hobby to kill time in a more constructive way than jerking off (sometimes) or watching old horror flicks.

What kind of "pragmatic" action are you looking for?

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#53770 - 05/01/11 12:25 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Shea]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Shea


Personally, this is more my market place of ideals; a hobby to kill time in a more constructive way than jerking off (sometimes) or watching old horror flicks.


OR??? OR??? Do I have to choose? ;\)
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#53771 - 05/01/11 01:12 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I'm here to interact with human beings who aren't insane like the ones I have known to exist in real life. People who may or may not be rational, yet I have seen so far that there is much positive understanding to be had through exercising ones mind with perhaps greater minds who are more rational than mine.

I've certainly changed my ideas since coming here, I change my views like the wind because I don't have any, I'm nihilist and everything is superficially ambiguous to me, a world of unpredictable insanity, yet my ideas of Satanism have gone from extreme misanthropy and nihilism to seeing that others can be humanistic, at least entertain the thoughts online, challenging ideas rather than to immediately side with established beliefs. Quite saddening to know that so few people are Satanist—to be in the company of wolves baring teeth rather than a backstabbing pecking order of chickens, I'm sure some will agree.

I am still going to the gym and reading at home as I always do, but I have gotten a positive outlook for a percentage maybe, I may write questionable things but I am often pleased to see the positive reactions (bad idea to agree with my misanthropic black and white ideas, they lead to grey nihilism). I doubt humanity vastly yet always seem to be proven wrong on here, which I can appreciate.

Maybe some changes are in order for my lifestyle rather than being a hermit at the woods with my laptop. I weight train and box almost daily, this is the only time I interact with people aside from online and there is not much talking. I've not knocked on another persons house for years. Nobody comes to wherever I am living, and I am glad (this what's maybe wrong).

I can say that I have only gotten positive enthusiasm from interactions on this site. Nothing out of the ordinary goes on at my place by design, I live much like a Zen monk, I drink water, pass water, study, exercise, and when tired, I lay down. My life has been complete chaos and violence so mindfulness is a new thing for me. Pragmatism can wait while I adjust to the silence and keep up my health.

Sometimes a pragmatic goal is merely something to aim at?
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#53784 - 05/01/11 01:11 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Hegesias]
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
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I have lived my life in a similar way avoiding people, keeping to myself etc. because most people I meet I consider them to be stupid and deeply flawed. They are so deeply ingrained in their flaws that they feel no shame about it, therefore it's useless to debate with them or try to change them, it is just what they are.

Over time I have realized though that this has left me at a severe disadvantage in life. Despite being more intelligent or having superior traits in other ways I tend to be at the bottom of the pecking order of society, a perpetual victim because I am a loner.

Teamwork is thus the key. I love that statement about the chickens pecking at each other's back compared to wolves bearing teeth. These chickens are able to be successful because they are interacting with each other.

I am interested in making contacts. I will not let anybody and everybody into my world. But slowly over time I get to know people. I measure people's character. I am working on my own brotherhoods and organizations. We are about being EXCLUSIVE. However even people not inolved in my own organization- it's usefull to network as much as possible.

It's difficult for me because I don't like interacting with people generally. But I realize that is simply because they are not like me. I would probably be a millionaire if I had a small group of similar people to work with. Instead I live in poverty. It really makes a huge difference having a community.

More or less I have to expose myself and put myself out in the public in order to meet people. Those people who I find incompatible with me I'll just ignore them but those who I like I will invite further and further into my inner circle.

Pragmatism-

People with similar goals share knowledge. This knowledge is power. Such as the best occult techniques, manifesting etc. I have studied the occult deeply and I'm a bit of a natural psychic but I rarely do a spell or even do the meditations I should be doing. I just find it far more useful to get a degree in business and take over a fortune 500 company rather than sacrifice a goat in the woods and tell myself I'm power. Therefore I'm much more interested in the pragmatic and real world side of Satanism though I do not neglect the value of manifesting and other spiritual techniques. But this is one goal- share information on optimal health, optimal psychological manipulation, optimal spell work etc.

Of course I could practice 24 hours a day and become very powerful psychically but it does me little good given my situation. We can't all be experts in everything. So for my purposes I just look for the most simple and effective techniques in that realm.

Next economic cooperation. For example I am interested in real estate investment. But I don't have the money. HOwever if 10 or 20 people pulled their resources together they could buy a property with very little money from each person. Then use the profits from that to buy another property etc.

Next- protection. If people f*&^% with me I would have a group of "friends" who would be willing to take care of such problems.

I have suffered a lot in my life because my neighbors, family etc. are self destructive morons. I feel the quality of my life would change dramatically if I could just live, interact, work and play around intelligent, self responsible people. One goal is I want to live behind a gated EXCLUSIVE community at some point in my life.

I'm focused on being successful. Pragmatism to me means to go out and DO things and to also adjust our goals and actions to the situation rather than rigidly following a set way of doing things.

Discussing theories online at some point doesn't accomplish much in our personal lives. I want to organize with people and achieve real power. For example someone like Bill Gates has more real power than probably any Satanist you will meet online. It's not all about spells and potions its about using the occult to enhance your personal life and give you that edge but not to rely on it as crutch for failures in other realms of life.

I hate being weak, powerless, living in a f&^ed up world etc. So I seek team work to empower myself and to reach for collective goals. This is what the real satanists do. Unfortunately though I am not a member of those circles.

The real Satanists run the UN, are running the Freemasons and Illuminati. I have thought about joining some of these secret societies but the problem is I must start way at the bottom and by the time I crawl up in rank where it becomes useful to me I'll probably be an old man. There is a lot of deception and such that goes on in those groups and lot of doing what you are told, which I don't like. Still I might do that, but I also need my own group of people who are a little more focused on quickly accomplishing something as well.

Most secret societies are based on family lines. If your grandfather was a mason and your uncle, cousin etc. then you can join and move up quickly. Since my family is not involved I would be moving up at the rate of a snail and I would have to do a lot of social events and stupid rituals I probably don't feel like doing, then I would also have to pretend to care, which is very difficult for me to do. But as I said that may be one option for me to try. But its more effective just to cut past the BS and get to a group which is reaching goals faster.



Edited by Thule (05/01/11 01:17 PM)
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#53845 - 05/01/11 10:33 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
paolo sette Offline
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Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
Pragmatism is not a potentiality to be actualized sometime in the future, but is always the basic nature of humans. At each and every moment in the ever-changing movement of humans, pragmatism manifests itself as 'thus-comes' and 'thus-goes'. A distinction between pragmatism (potentiality) and humans (actuality) must be completely overcome and realized here and now at each and every moment.

Pragmatism is aware of human finetutde, and realizes evanescence common to all things which is only grasped here and now at each and every moment of our ever-changing world.

Ciao.
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#53947 - 05/04/11 04:18 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: paolo sette]
Thule Offline
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well my focus is on results rather than just endless debate, talk and dreaming. I guess that's what I think of when I hear pragmatism- results oriented. Very rare to find online. Or really in general. Most people just want to go to a job and be told what to do rather than work on a team or take any charge of their life.

A few of them go online and debate things- most of which tends to be nonsense and half educated. But it is just a way to pass time rather than a means to an end.

For me I am online mostly to discover knowledge which may be useful to me and to meet useful contacts, friends and associates.
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#53948 - 05/04/11 06:27 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
paolo sette Offline
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Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: Thule
Most people just want to go to a job and be told what to do rather than work on a team or take any charge of their life.

A few of them go online and debate things- most of which tends to be nonsense and half educated. But it is just a way to pass time rather than a means to an end.


In the pursuit of every-day Life, it is often found that a determined Will alone does not achieve the end. For some personalities, certain shocks are needed to turn the Mind out of a groove. The needed shocks come in a form of intense emotional excitement such as anger, indignation, humiliation, etc. When the passions are excited to a certain degree, they acquire an extraordinary powerful Force to break through the limits of human consciousness which are generally set by the Self. In other words, an intense emotional disturbance Will awaken in a person a mysterious Force of which has otherwise been unawakened.

Like your likenesses, be averse to things you don't want, and don't attain the level of stupid indifference (vapidity).

I'm reminded of a passage I once read, and a sentence may be of use:

You limit yourself; it is not that you are not able to do this, but that you simply do not do it.

To break down the barrier of Self-imposed limitations, it is often necessary to excite a person through an extraordinary measure.

The-Infernal-One
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#53955 - 05/04/11 11:45 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: paolo sette]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I can relate Paolo Sette. I would like to think that self defined master morality could come to more peoples attentions, not just Satanism.

In general, "utilitarian" refers to a pragmatic view. Philosophical utilitarianism, however, is a broader view encompassing people's lives who seek "happiness". And what is happiness it if it not seeing ones will achieve what it sets out to do. The trouble with utilitarians is that they seek comfort and call this "happiness", making the best from an unfortunate situation rather than to create new opportunities. In looking at things this way we can see there is a distinction.

I look with suspicion on values such as compassion, pity, and selfless acts, as well as on equality pathos. In expressing the will to power, we embody natural human functioning; we may live the most different lives, and as such, we are positive, vitalised, and optimistic about those diversely alike hence we work together forming in line rather than to subjugate others will we work together bolstering one another's passions. The Overman need not slaves or followers to gage his strength, his alignment is with those of a common goal. So when somebody like me sees those around him tantalised by fantastic mediocrity, sycophantic whoredom and making the best from a bad situation without aspirations for improvement, it is insulting— the hunt for those who value life and affirm life is more dire— brimming with confidence.

Slave morality, is fearful, uncertain of themselves, slaves choose to be victims to play inhumane sympathy games. Slave morality is timid, and favours a limited existence; it makes the best of a bad situation. The great man creates his own morality, a higher morality which is life-affirming.

I have always believed a noble life lies in freedom, no remorse, with loyalty to ones high ideals. One draws rational thought and action in dire situation as it were, and is, mundane, this indifference is level-headedness and maybe indifference was a much too ambiguous term for me to use. There is a line between being passively apathetic and being cold-blooded dispassionate and rational.

Some of us (like me) may seem to be plain, ordinary, and nothing special by any standards of those who represent the semblance of propensity and experience without validity of competence— uniform, in the manner of children playing games. This is because I am ordinary and nothing special, my mortality is what drives me, not reflections of grandeur.

Many a utilitarian will be ignorant to critique not only because they are comfort seekers who fear the overman who express' the natural aristocracy of the will to power, but because a critique of mediocrity may conveniently consist of argumentum ad hominem for which the utilitarian can cite the critique as an undeveloped argument about particular utilitarian proponents. This is both fortunate and unfortunate, since such adeptness at attacking views exposes concealed assumptions hence turning the assumptions of its proponents against the principles the slave moralists defend. Individual happiness is looked upon as collective happiness for which there is no such thing— the world being made up of individuals all expressing the will to power, so what is happiness if it is not ones will being affirmed results?

The way of the meek contentment seeker who makes do with fantastic mediocrity, and pleased he is, he is free— unbeknownst to his prison of mediocrity, the utilitarian attempts to decommission natural selection. Chattering sycophantic words of peace whilst coveting his neighbours goods— ignoble soothsayers.


I would assume that if it were a mature and self aware response, a challenging and seemingly negative response to LaVeyan Satanism may be stemming from the inspiration to reach the Nietzschean maxim and express the will to power and attain our personalised high ideals, the affirmation of a lacking is the want to push thresholds. To critique what we see potential in is not the same as contrasting ones hubris with a convenient weakling.

As the ONA has manuscripts which present a vast array of opposites, and, that but one manuscript will be ambiguous unto another, it all depends on the evolution whence comes from the outcome of perspectivism on a large scale.

I have observed talk of LaVeyans being deemed as "egoistic and vain, a la LaVain Satanist" yet without any description of what "type of ego" such an assertion is as meaningless as to regard the ego of every egoistic human being as some kind of germ or disease— to deny he who is brimming with vitality, to deny the expression of the will to power.

Satanism, like all knowledge, can teach one to discard it in literal format and make from it a revaluation of ones own intrinsic values strengthening and preserving his own master morality through self understanding. If what results is darker still, then so be it, life itself is the will to power. May we strive for the Nietzschean maxim and dare to be ourselves.
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#53967 - 05/05/11 02:40 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
blackjeans Offline
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Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 8
Loc: kenya
sweet hegesias all u need is to be strong, apply all the ingrigients of magic and remain focused to accomplish your goals. i also share the the same challenge of loneliness that has excited my consideration to leave my country of birth and seek other satanists. i also feel in deep need of a team since i need to learn alot of Satanism, the materials available on the net are less than 15 percent and also considering my way of learning being different, i learn something when i need it and this makes me strong. This journey u chose will not always be smooth especially now we are on our young age into Satanism. Satanism is for the strong, be yourself and avoid setting on white filth. BE STRONG AND WHATEVER YOU CHOOSE TO INDULGE INTO, INDULGE FULLY with a strong will.
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#53972 - 05/05/11 03:39 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
Evin Offline
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Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 19
 Quote:
Those people who I find incompatible with me I'll just ignore them but those who I like I will invite further and further into my inner circle.


I'm curious. How do you know that those that you 'invite' won't ignore you? What is it that you offer?

 Quote:
I would probably be a millionaire if I had a small group of similar people to work with.


If you're weak when you're alone, you'll be weak in a group. Unless you plan on hanging onto the stronger members coattails. If they are stronger than you though, they won't let you. Why should they?

 Quote:
Next economic cooperation. For example I am interested in real estate investment. But I don't have the money. HOwever if 10 or 20 people pulled their resources together they could buy a property with very little money from each person. Then use the profits from that to buy another property etc.


Are you prepared to sit on that property for years? There is a surplus of foreclosed property on the market now.

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#53981 - 05/05/11 05:46 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: blackjeans]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
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Loc: New York City
"This journey u chose will not always be smooth especially now we are on our young age into Satanism. Satanism is for the strong, be yourself and avoid setting on white filth."

Not everyone on this site is young. A lot of members have been involved in Satanism for over 20 years, plus a lot of members are over 30.

"avoid setting on white filth."

Just what do you mean by this? Are you being racist?

M
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#53982 - 05/05/11 06:25 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Evin]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Evin
If you're weak when you're alone, you'll be weak in a group. Unless you plan on hanging onto the stronger members coattails. If they are stronger than you though, they won't let you. Why should they?


I think you underestimate the power and advantage of groups. It enlarges ones Will to Power exponentially and as such, is not to be neglected when trying to accomplish certain goals.

It is not because egocentrism is glorified by Satanism, one therefor becomes weak or must at all costs avoid groups.

D.

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#53984 - 05/05/11 07:18 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Diavolo]
Evin Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 19
 Quote:
I think you underestimate the power and advantage of groups.


No, that is not what I said. It's not groups that are the problem and are to be avoided.

A group is as strong as it's weakest link. If the leader is the weakest link, what good is the group?

The OP is trying to build a group out of his weakness, looking for strength in his group because he can't do it on his own. He said as much already. So what makes the OP think that anyone wants to be a part if his "exclusive" group?

He might be stronger than he thinks. Or, maybe not.

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#53995 - 05/06/11 05:40 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Evin]
Dark Beauty Offline
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Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 13
I consider myself pragmatic, which is the reason I have found immense pleasure in solitude. As you explore and test your emotional and mental confines, you should be wise enough to take your self-knowledge and go out and manipulate the outside world to achieve your aims, if only for a few moments. Once your goal has been achieved, return to your lair to recharge in solitude.

One would think the Satanist knows when introversion best serves him, and when it does not. If one lives in a "celebrated" conformist society, he or she could still derive more benefit as an individual who seeks outlets that increase knowledge and creativity that will produce something tangible. How productive is it really to talk nonsense for hours in a group when their is a proposal waiting to be typed, investors waiting to be secured, or a book that has been floating around in your mind for years that needs to be committed to paper?

Often extreme intellectuals become paralyzed by their thoughts and simply lose their ability to produce. This is how one become less effective than a group, when in actuality, each member produces the least amount of work, at different levels of quality, to complete a project. Not to mention conflicts, differences of opinions and levels of skill sets which typically erode group success.

In groups one often has to submit to and praise some of the most intellectually frozen, egomaniacal, inferior, clueless, bubble-headed people for membership, and that's just to be allowed to listen to something which would sound much better coming out the other end of them. I know no matter how alone I may realize myself to be, a book of wisdom applied to my life, far outweighs the company of a group of idiots as a valuable companion.
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#53998 - 05/06/11 10:48 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Hegesias]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



The pragmatic, for me, basically means assessing and calculating the probable or exact effect or consequences of an action, potentially every action.

This is a valuable way of thinking or being, as the calculation and prediction of effects means far more effective and comprehensive manipulation.

It also tends to lead too more accurate long term planning and the greater probablility of achieving the end game, where one effect after another must be correctly predicted.

Very valuable for a Satanist I think. One of the arts of the puppet master.

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#54035 - 05/06/11 09:21 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Hegesias]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: Hegesias
In general, "utilitarian" refers to a pragmatic view. Philosophical utilitarianism, however, is a broader view encompassing people's lives who seek "happiness". And what is happiness it if it not seeing ones will achieve what it sets out to do. The trouble with utilitarians is that they seek comfort and call this "happiness", making the best from an unfortunate situation rather than to create new opportunities. In looking at things this way we can see there is a distinction.


As I see it, our sense-experience or intellection alone are not enough. If we wish to sound the bottomless abyss of conventional Reality, the higher stages of Mind must be added not mechanically or quantitatively but chemically or qualitatively. When we hear a bell or see a bird flying, we must do so by a conscious Mind. Once the bell rings or the bird flies, they are already in the world of the senses which means that they are differentiated. The acts are subject to intellectual analysis and synthesis which means that "the originality" has been adulterated, and "the full moon" of Mind as seen by certain skalds and bards are now thickly veiled with threatening clouds. Mind is synonymous with the Self.

 Originally Posted By: Hegesias
Slave morality, is fearful, uncertain of themselves, slaves choose to be victims to play inhumane sympathy games. Slave morality is timid, and favours a limited existence; it makes the best of a bad situation. The great man creates his own morality, a higher morality which is life-affirming.


To add supporting comments from the intellectual point of view, scenes of enthrallment are those familiar to our daily lives. We generally pass them by without finding anything significant. Indeed, our daily experiences are as they are, but we fail to recognize the fact because we "lack" something which enables us to understand the meaning of the aphorism: "Only The Pure Shall Enter." If this be a maxim that is applicable across the board, as long as we remain intellectuals we have no means of escaping a vicious, downward spiral.

 Originally Posted By: Hegesias
I have always believed a noble life lies in freedom, no remorse, with loyalty to ones high ideals. One draws rational thought and action in dire situation as it were, and is, mundane, this indifference is level-headedness and maybe indifference was a much too ambiguous term for me to use. There is a line between being passively apathetic and being cold-blooded dispassionate and rational.


We are all to a certain degree a philosopher, a (anti-)moralist, and the spiritually disposed. But, some of you are not strongly inclined to become either one of them. You cannot all be philosophers, but some of you like to approach great problems of Life with an intellectual frame of Mind. While their are even people that are not able to pursue the problems with sufficient vigor and logical acumen, they attempt to begin along the philosophical line. With more emotional people the procedure is different, they seek at once a religious leader and listen to his advice. They do not reason much, they just feel that they must do something to save themselves otherwise their Fall is imminent. Such have no time to use their reason legitimately and patiently. They become devotional followers of the godhead or satanhead. Which side are you on?

I have a tremendous grasp of all sides of theism and non-theism.

Old-Scratch...The-Infernal-One
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#54193 - 05/09/11 01:13 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: paolo sette]
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
So many replies:

About the group. I believe the inferior do not understand the value of the group.

An example I use is an investment: a $10k investment might yield a 10% return. But there might be a better investment that yields a 15% return but needs 100k minimal. If 10 people come together and put their resources together they each individually can attain a 15% yield rather than a 10%. It is not because they are weak that they come together. It is because they are stronger as a group.

In most realms of life it is the same. I have usually been smarter, stronger and harder working than others around me yet they have easier lives simply because they have groups looking out for their interest.

I also noticed that pretty much all elites, wealthy and powerful people are part of groups, societies, networks etc.

Yes if a weak or non-altruistic person is in the group they simply burn the group's energy. That is why we measure character and exclude those people who are not contributing to the group's well being.

What if someone wants to ignore me? Then I don't care about them. I don't waste my energy thinking about them. I am only interested in meeting the few people who are like me, have similar goals and will work together with me. If someone isn't interested in what I'm dong I don't worry about them. If someone is interested but incompatible I simply tell them I don't think they would be useful in my group.

also:

I seek power. Wealth is one aspect of power. Power is the ability to satisfy the will (a person's desires). Which is not always an easy or comfortable life. Some people *will* a challenging life, or other such things.

I actually believe in a modified form of Nietzsche. What I think he was getting at is a "will to be". The tree wills itself to be a tree, according to its inherent nature. Most healthy life forms preserve their own existence with a "will to be" they avoid death and seek to procreate for example. The will to power is actually the will of the over-man which is a higher level of will to be. The will to power is a desire for constant self improvement, constant empowerment. Which is the satanic principle.

The key is a defective mind will desire and *will* defective things, a healthy mind will desire good things that lead to actual fulfillment and happiness. This is the role of religion and spirituality (to perfect one's desires and understanding of the world). Anyone who does not desire to be happier, healthier, stronger is not an over man and has an insufficient will to power. He simply wills to be. Such as people have a will to be a loser.

Right now though my goal is to increase power. As said of course a person with a defective mind when given more power will only harm himself more. A good person will do more good with power and bad person more bad. A self destructive person will destroy himself more with power etc.

So power alone is not always good, unless you have a reasonably healthy spirit. I believe my spirit is healthy. I hate being weak and powerless, poor, at the bottom of the social scale etc. and desire to move up. The easiest way to do this is team work.




Edited by Thule (05/09/11 01:17 PM)
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#54199 - 05/09/11 01:38 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Thule
The easiest way to do this is team work.


I always say this too. As long I'm in charge of the team.

Much of what you say here isn't indicative of someone whose interests lie in the ideologies of the power of the individual (which is what Satanism is about).

Once in my life I had aspirations of starting businesses with other people, and actually have done some 'team' projects, but soon learned that without a strong lead these things often fail.

Right now I am developing a business to eventually replace my 9-5. I have clients, goals, etc and all are of my own making. To me, team = compromise and I can't live with that. My wife has a beauty business that is going very well. She is the reason for that, her hard work and uncompromising standards have brought that about. When I do work for the salon (books, etc), I work for her... she's the boss. We have a 'team' of people around us (CPA, Lawyer, Agent, etc) but we call the shots, my wife for her business and me for mine.

If I needed to raise cash for something like your above illustration, my default position would be to broker the deal instead of trying to assemble a bunch of equal partners.

And finally about groups helping people. It's been my practical experience that if one of our clients is particularly happy with service they get from us they tell their friends. When their friends experience the same, they tell their friends and so forth. In this way one becomes part of a network that is valuable. It doesn't have to originate from a group who comes together and decides to do something. Be excellent and provide excellent service and/or work and other excellent folk will notice.
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#54207 - 05/09/11 03:28 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Fnord]
Diavolo Offline
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I “cooperate'” with some in a side-business and this only functions because there are only two in control. All the rest do what they need to do. This duumvirate only works because we know each other well, have respect, and realize that if one fucks the other, the other fucks him back quite hard.

Groups with too many members all having control simply don't function well. There's always one the dumbest, laziest or greediest, and sooner or later, this will compromise the group.

There is surely power in groups and one can accomplish much but it is rare to find those you can fully depend upon. It is much easier having a hierarchical group where each has his position and where you preferably are on top, or someone you think deserves to be there.

D.

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#54275 - 05/10/11 04:13 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Diavolo]
Thule Offline
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Everything involves small groups where everyone knows everyone else that is the nature of the structure. It must be a group of all leaders. I am about increasing my own power as much as possible. That involves groups. I'm sure I can grab a gun and stand before an army of 50,000 people and think how great it feels to be in control- until I get shot down dead.

Freedom comes from power. Power comes from team work. People who think they are in control but alone are not.

99% of people I probably don't want to work with. That is why we evaluate people's character and only work with the initiated. Information and membership is not public, but I need to go in public to find potential candidates.

Let's use an example: if I have a team and someone tries to rob me the team can physically go after them. I don't count on the police, santa claus, jesus or superman to protect me. Actually one of our members should be a lawyer, a police officer etc. ideally.

I'm not a slave to this team, they aren't a slave to me. They simply work together out of self interests.

And again with business. One may be a lawyer, another a real estate broker etc. all working together in a business deal out of self interest.

If all people need to be chief and in control very little gets done. People should be able to show a degree of politeness, civility etc.

What I see that makes my philosophy satanist is-

dedicated to constant self improvement, dedicated to increasing ones personal power, dedicated to cultivating leadership and predator instincts, but also very team oriented because of the benefits of team work. Yet if no one is of good enough quality for my group I carry on by myself. The group is not a crutch for personal weakness. It is a tool to sharpen one's own blade with.




Edited by Thule (05/10/11 04:14 PM)
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#54279 - 05/10/11 04:45 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
Diavolo Offline
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There can not be a group of all leaders because what a leader does is lead. Every group requires a hierarchy to function well. Hierarchy is not a choice, it is a fundamental part of us, we humans are like many other animals hierarchical in our social structures. I know that in Satanism it is popular to consider us all as individuals, alphas and that our only position in any hierarchy is at the top. I disagree with that and think that any group benefits most when the hierarchy is defined according the skills required for the goals of that group. And believe it or not but we are not always the best in everything and as such, may gain more when tolerating someone more skilled above us.

A group of all leaders is just as dysfunctional as a group of all followers. The first goes everywhere, the second nowhere.

D.

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#54321 - 05/11/11 11:51 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Diavolo]
Thule Offline
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I don't think so. Groups of leaders do exist. I would say it is most apparent in Jewish circles. We can also see the UN as another example.

I agree though the inferior usually want to think of themselves as *the best* and don't see the benefit of being beneath people (or group work in general). Every ghetto rat thinks he is a "playa" with the utmost confidence in his ability, when in reality he is a total loser. It is his inability to assess his own weakness that leads to his failure! Those willing to submit their own egos at the door often accomplish more.

One of the few quotes that I really like to take from the Satanic Bible:

To be able to adjust one’s wants to one’s capabilities is a great talent, and too many people fail to realize that if they are unable to attain the maximum, “a half a loaf can be better than none.” The chronic loser is always the man who, having nothing, if unable to make a million dollars, will reject any chance to make fifty thousand with a disgruntled sneer.

One of the magician’s greatest weapons is knowing himself; his talents, abilities, physical attractions and detractions, etc., and when, where, and with whom to utilize them! The man with nothing to offer, who approaches the man who is successful with grandiose advice and promise of great wealth, has the alacrity of the flea climbing up the elephant’s leg with the intention of rape!

-----------
Hierarchy exists when there is inferiority in a person. True democracy only exists among a group of equals. The whole concept of western freedom is based on the satanic enlightenment and a human's ability to chose and lead himself.

Let's use bees or ants. We say there is a "queen" this is only protected because it breeds, not because it is giving orders. There is no high command. They all work together as a team. This is why they are the most successful insects.

In a similar way I might protect a child or a brother not because he gives me orders but because it is in mutual interests to protect each other. A leader *thinks* and a leader takes *responsibility* all of us can do this.

I need people who I can count on to make good decisions on their own. Not people who I need to supervise constantly. That is the difference between a group of leaders. Anybody not doing their job correctly will simply be removed from that job.

It is the same way I can buy 10 stores and hire someone to run each one. We have 10 leaders working together. The stores might help each other, but they aren't taking orders from each other.

Similarly with humans those who need to be "told what to do" are weak. Someone who similarly needs to kick others down and boss them around is also weak. We shouldn't need such things.

What a leader does is lead- I lead my own life. My partner leads their life. Yet the world is always full of compromise. I can't go around killing people for example. Why? Because in order to live in a society I must respect certain rules and needs of others. Similarly within the context of the group I must give weight to the considerations of others, but this does not deprive me of the ability to lead and make decisions.

Within this group ideas bounce off of each other. Each one is *thinking* planning and *leading* but within the context of consideration for others, intelligent conversation, and reaching a group consensus where necessary.

It is not needed that all satanists feel this way or that all people believe this. It is only needed that the people on *my team* believe this and operate this way.

We believe altruism is one of the highest marks of a civilized person and a sign of superiority. Only we define altruism differently. Altruism is team work, consideration of others. Most people today think altruism is taking responsibility for failures (such as feeding the poor) we don't believe that. We are not ashamed of doing better than others and have no problem letting other people fail or die on their own. Yet at the same time we are not destructive and causing any of the harm. We are also capable of working together ourselves.


Edited by Thule (05/11/11 11:59 AM)
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#54323 - 05/11/11 12:03 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
Diavolo Offline
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I hardly think the social structure of a bee-hive resembles human hierarchy. Will to Power implies each living “unit” will maximize its influence upon its environment. This is evidenced quite well in human affairs. As such, democracy, true or not, egalitarianism and non-hierarchical groups are fantasies based upon a misunderstanding of human nature, or even the nature of life.

This doesn't imply people can't function without clubbing the weaker but it does imply there will always be a hierarchy and if not, one will be established in time. Will to Power will always find a way to fill that vacuum.

Groups of leaders is simply socialism at a different level.

D.

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#54337 - 05/11/11 02:22 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Diavolo]
Thule Offline
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Human organization and relationships are complex and probably there will be various roles. But it is not the master-slave kind of hierarchy one might imply. We can compare the relatively free United States to perhaps some Feudal system. Both have hierarchies and social organization, but one promotes an atmosphere of leadership, a freedom, a will to power etc. another doesn't.

It's about tribalism.

If someone was far inferior to me I would not tolerate them in the group. Similarly if someone was extremely superior to the point that we are incompatible they would not be in this group. We must be essentially the same species. The group is about being homogenous- similar and united with the same basic goals and culture.

Most people can't operate like bees. That's why we are a different species from most. We believe in inherent differences between people, their cultures and so on.

We believe that attitude of always wanting to be on top is inefficient. Most people would rather be the king of a pile of sh*t than at the bottom of a group of millionaires (this has been proven through studies). We hold to the Jewish maxim "better to be at the tails of lions than the head of sheep"

We don't compare ourselves to others. We don't need "inferiors" to look down upon to feel good about ourselves. That is the attitude of the loser. The loser must drag everyone into the sh*t with him in order to feel better by comparison. The average person looks at the bum down the street and feels superior by comparison. Instead we look at those above us and say "we must compete with that" we seek constant self improvement and minimal standards (not in comparison to others, but in comparison to an absolute standard of ability and conduct).

That's the whole source of weakness in the world- the human desire to be on top of others. That's the whole source of socialism (make everyone around you weak so its easier to master them rather than improve yourself).

For example: in modern society most people are either givers or takers. Either cattle or people sucking the blood from cattle. This is what we call "corruption" because very little energy is used to actually produce anything.

Most people spend their time "watching their back" against the takers, scam artists, abusers etc. in society. This energy can better be used producing wealth/power.

Most third world nations have high corruption. There you will find the predators with the sharpest claws. Yet people who cooperate more are actually stronger than those who spend all their time trying to dominate or scam their neighbor.

A rising tide raises all ships so to speak.

The goal is not to be either a giver or a taker but rather altruistic- a team player. This is maintained through exclusivity. Those who do not conform are removed from the group.

I guess if you are already rich and have an easy life you don't need this philosophy. But I've always lived a hard life.

I see that wherever people are most aggressive I see the worst ghettos. It's dog eat dog in the ghetto and low classes, yet go among the rich elite of the world and they are part of cooperative societies, polite etc.

The thing about Marxists is they see their neighbor is living better than them so they think if they can burn down their neighbor's home they will look better by comparison.

Myself I don't care about my neighbor, I care about having a nicer home myself. So that is where this is not socialist at all. Nothing exclusive can be considered socialism. It is more elitism.

To build a better home myself I work together with people, but only those of the proper quality to associate with me.
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#54339 - 05/11/11 03:08 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
Diavolo Offline
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Hierarchy doesn't need to be despotic. A good hierarchy implies each at their natural position in the ranks. Of course most of human society isn't exemplary for this. Every time we participate in any human structure, we are a part of a hierarchy. Of course in human affairs it is defined by wealth, status, power... etc. But never, in any system on the world, is there no hierarchy. Even freedom does not come for free.

The human desire to be on top isn't the source of weakness as it is the very drive that made us what we are. Of course we can look at it as a simplistic emotional urge we follow but deep down, like all animals, we just act according our Will to Power. That is the inherent drive and it translates into many different behaviors, some horrible, some pathetic, some marvelous.

I understand your desire to financially improve but instead of waiting for a group to form around you, which probably won't happen spontaneously, you should look around and realize there is plenty of money to be made for those willing or daring. In that might be your ticket to improvement.

D.

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#54345 - 05/11/11 09:36 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
paolo sette Offline
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Registered: 12/12/08
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Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: Thule
So many replies:

About the group. I believe the inferior do not understand the value of the group.


I have a story for you:

A person once, a long time ago, incurred the displeasure of another who had the ability to imprison this individual in his straw-thatched, bamboo enclosure which was the only place he called home. As he found out, he began studying different philosophies and discovered one which propelled and engrossed his mentation. When he was released from his straw-thatched, easily destroyed, make-shift home years later, he began to practice his philosophy with religious zealots.

He allowed a well-respected, dignitary of the philosophy he had been so intently studying all these years into his "group".

This flagrant person was known for the physical abuse of followers or constituents who accepted whatever kind of abuse the higher-up could dish out. The person who had been studying all these years was given a delicate task: interpret important documents to the burgeoning philosophy. When he came to the dignitary to present his view, the luminary said nothing and pummeled the newcomer hard on his head. This naturally angered the tenderfoot to be treated in such a fashion.

The strict student that was looking for acknowledgement to be a teacher was dismayed, he could not suffer such an indignity that was considered by others as shameful.

He wanted to cut the insolent person's head off with a sharp blade, but a friend quietly said: "Even if you cut his head off, it will not do any good to either of you. From the first, he had no idea of his-Self: he is doing all for the sake of the newfound, perspicuous Mind-set."

Advice: Sever by hewing the individuals who do not come to the "group" with the agreement of your hoary, ideational interests. I have.

Old-Scratch
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#54360 - 05/12/11 10:57 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: paolo sette]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
I would suggest with reference to groups and leaders and followers, that it is simply wrong to think that a group of leaders can exist in any real way. In the UN, people that are leaders in other contexts, become followers quite rapidly. It's not having a group or think yourself superior that allows a person to assume power. Power is actually extremely easy because NO ONE REALLY WANTS POWER.

Yes, that even includes most of us, if we have the courage to be honest. Because the the reality of power is that if you have power, you have responsibility (they are exactly the same thing) and if there is blame - it is entirely the responsible person's fault.

And if it is your fault, you DO NOT GET TO BE RIGHT ABOUT IT. No, people that have power - they are always wrong, because it's easy to be right from a position of no responsibility and no power.

In any group there is only one person that has actual power, and you know who that is because they have the most responsibility.

This make believe fairy tale that "we can all be leaders!" - that's the bed time story of a SLAVE that refuses to accept what they are and chooses to bullshit themselves rather than do anything real about it.

This site, in my opinion, is not valuable for it's community in such a way that helps any one of us get done what we would not get done otherwise. Here we all have big egos and believe "it's my way or the highway". We don't cooperate, many of us, because we're attached to the idea of 'leading' even if that's not what we're doing. So all of us really, the path of least resistance is to be alone, to work alone. And to produce results alone, so everyone else has that critical freedom to doubt and so more easily believe themselves better than everyone else.

That's here, Occult orders have hierarchies and force upon members roles of submission and servitude. And the reality is that most of us with a natural innate ability to dominate also often contain a need/desire to submit, human being is complex that way.

Are groups valuable? Yes they are. And if you take yourself away from a context of big egos - you may find that simply being willing to take on responsibility, and doing that job well - it effortlessly allows you to assume roles of power. And if you are supportive and helpful to people under you - it's not uncommon they will worship you like a GOD. But the equation is leader plus followers.

Which is not to say most of the folks here are not followers. But y'all are followers that follow very poorly because you're uncomfortable with the role. Which makes you worthless if you produce nothing of value on your own.

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#54363 - 05/12/11 11:35 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: myk5]
Thule Offline
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I already explained my points so I don't want to continually repeat the same thing. I also don't want to appear like I'm trying to force my beliefs on anyone else. There are many good points here but none of them will convince me against the value of team work.

Of course different people "shine" in different environments. I would not consider one life path to be the best for all people. It has been my observation though that generally the most successful people have strong families, good social skills, members of various social clubs and private communities etc.

I think true power comes from within. A wolf will always be a wolf even when chained down by others. And it is this "wolf" characteristic that I speak of when being a leader.

The best teachers are also learners. The best leaders also followers. It all depends on the context. I may lead someone else today and he may lead me tomorrow depending on who is best suited to do so at the time. There is not a strict hierarchy. If someone doesn't want to lead or doesn't want power, again they would not be in the group. It's a different reality when something is exclusive and with minimal standards of qualification.

I see power as being able to get what I want/need. Not as exactly control or dominance over others. So I have a different world view. If I have no power than I have failed. If I grasp power then I have a chance at success.

I always get the same reply from losers "why try we will just fail anyway" and "don't do that it's too risky". Well if you don't try you are 100% guaranteed to fail and not get what you want. If you try and fail then at least you did your best. It isn't productive to talk about the possibility of failure. It is only productive to do everything possible to succeed and make no excuses not to. At least that's my attitude.

About money:

I am doing everything I can reasonably do. This is why I'm going to college and working towards a college degree despite the difficulty given my poverty. So once I have my degree I should be able to land a descent paying job, live cheaply and invest.

I'm also well educated in investments and I have connections who have knowledge in offshore banking and other matters.

But I also am working on joint investment projects and building up my group.

I do not sit back and wait for other people to join me before I can do something. I do everything I can, part of that though involves actively looking for others.

But I don't do this by trying to convert others to my point of view. I simply look for others who already think like I do and are looking for the same thing so that we can quickly work together and accomplish things together.

There are maybe 10 people in the groups outer edge but only 2 core members as of now. Simply by finding 1 person like me I have been able to be 10 times more effective. We have shared all the most effective magick techniques and other knowledge we learned and we work together effectively in accomplishing goals. Likewise we can specialize in different areas of expertise.

I have never felt a need to control him nor him me. I always found that strange when I deal with people in the outside world, they see their own success somehow in being able to put down others, tell them what to do etc. I find that inferior in my own eyes.



Edited by Thule (05/12/11 11:43 AM)
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#54369 - 05/12/11 12:35 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Going to college is not bad and getting a degree might land you a good job but there are many people going to college for years, getting their degree, and spend a lot of years gathering money to pay back those debts. If you count the years in college as “missed income” and add to that the amount of debt build, many start with a huge disadvantage.

Another option is going to work directly. You might not make a tremendous amount of money being unskilled but if you're smart and have the right drive, you'll quickly develop your skills and move further in life. Many in the world of labor are those that left school because they didn't have the required intellectual skills to do higher studies. Those that are intelligent in that environment have a huge advantage. I'm a contract whore and while I have no fancy job title to boast about, as many of my former schoolfellows, I do make more money than most. Of course I'm only working for the money.

The thing is, if you're just going to get a job and save some here and there, you might do fine but you'll likely never do more than that. Gathering great money, most of the time, will require taking a risk. All you have to decide is how much is worth what risk.

D.

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#54382 - 05/12/11 06:06 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Diavolo]
Thule Offline
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Actually that's my problem- I actually believed that working hard led to success!

Most places I worked I would do the job of two people, be the most competent and most reliable. Usually I got treated worse than others. People mostly get jealous and try to destroy you if they see you are superior. I learned quickly that when working at loser jobs I got treated better by being lazy and playing stupid (so I blend in with everyone else). There is absolutely no way possible I can "work my way up" a minimal wage job. They always say the CEO or management did that but it's a total lie they use to sell people on being good slaves.

I also moved up to management (like shift leader) at one point I worked at a job that owed me 3 different raises and never saw them on my pay check. Nearly every place I worked had incompetent management and border line retarded/illiterate co-workers. A few people move up because they smoke weed with the boss or f*(&^ somebody, but it has nothing to do with competence.

This is what created my radical transformation in ideas. Always being a loner I realized social skills meant more than competence.

Anyway good jobs wont hire people without some kind of reference. I could easily be trained and make big money but it's hard to find someone to do it.

I actually told companies I will work for free if they train me for management. And they refuse to train me. They always want to be put me in some "shift leader" position and pay me the same.

Then later they whine and cry that they can't find managers and lose money as a result. Most companies are run by morons, any half way competent person can do better.

One company refused to spend $10,000 replacing their old scales. 3 months later they went bad and they lost $20,000 shutting the plant down and had to pay another $30,000 for an emergency replacement. *geniuses*

Then I go to college and get As in business management courses while being half asleep. Even though these courses are harder than the basic management training I have begged to receive, even though these companies would rather lose money than actually pay someone. Their greed costs them.

I realized the problem is I live around morons and failures and this pulls me down.

Success is not what you know- it's who you know. It took me about 10 years in the "real world" to start seeing things the right way rather than this work hard BS people always fed me.

That's the whole point of what I'm doing. Really if the people I worked with weren't total retards for example if we worked at a restaurant we could pull our resources, buy the store, manage it ourselves and pay ourselves about 5 times what we normally make to do the exact same job!

Life should be relatively easy but it is usually very hard because of self destructive people. They throw a rock through their window then whine and cry how cold it is with a broken window. They screw up their own lives then cry crockadile tears about how unfair life is. I guess I could sit around slitting my own wrists and be like them then I would get a big check from the government every month or something.

I actually met a lot of people who can't read or write or do basic math. It's all about moving up into a higher class of people (through the private society and being educated).

But yeah I'm at a severe disadvantage due to debt. I already have an associate degree and lots of credits. But even with the debt I'm better off than going nowhere because of other people.

They have a program where I only need to pay 10% of my income or so a month. Also the job I'm going for starts out at about $27 an hour whereas before I was making around $7 an hour, so it is an entirely differnet lifestyle, night and day. Sure take 15% of my $27 an hour if you have to. I'm still making $20 an hour opposed to $7. But more importantly- god the most important thing- I can work around people who act human!!

Yes people that can write their own name and know what 2+2 equals. I can't put a price tag on that. It's the most important thing in the world to me.

The problem is usually I do what I'm supposed to do, then the others around me don't. Then I end up quitting or something and this makes me look bad. It gives me a bad work history. (like when I come in and the boss wants to start a fist fight with me and I just walk out rather than deal with irrational monkeys). There's nothing I can do about other people. I can't change them. And living in ghetto environments most people are totally irrational losers- again the point of having an exclusive society.

As soon as I get money I'll be one of those people living in a "gated community". I want to be as far away from the losers as possible. I only go online and talk to people in public because I don't have a circle of friends yet. Otherwise I would never waste time with people I don't know.


Edited by Thule (05/12/11 06:11 PM)
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#54414 - 05/13/11 08:06 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
It will be in your best interest to conquer some issues.

Yes there are many losers out there but if you lock yourself up trying to escape from them, guess who will end up being the loser? In doing that, you give them more power than they deserve. I'm not a people's man but I still go out and mingle. Even when many encounters are as intellectually stimulating as watching paint dry, it is the only manner finding those more rewarding, networking and discovering new opportunities. It is seldom people get to me; when needed I switch off half my brain and participate in conversations that don't even store in my short term memory.

Many out there are also a great resource to gather income and often the weaker they are, the more valuable they become.

Hermits only end up as experts in being alone.

D.

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#54456 - 05/15/11 04:18 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Diavolo]
Dark Beauty Offline
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Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 13
Contrary to our social collectivist brethren, solitude or hermetic tendencies are very necessary to the self-mastery, advanced intellect, and exploring of creative potential. Many who have earned the title of being an innovator, cutting-edge, and/or revolutionary, acquired these ideas in the absence of others. Great composers, scientists, artists, or otherwise all have undergone an hermetic phases which inevitably led to the status, success, or reward that they later acquired.

In the first place, many are too ignorant to learn to make their interactions count. Associate with great minds and remember that only valuable numbers/people count. Success is dependent upon quality over quantity.

What value is gained from spending precious time with those who encompass the lower part of the social totem pole? Those who wander aimlessly about, mingling with anything or anyone, seeking social validation or just any sort of validation are weak--let's call them what they are.

Whatever one does in life should be purposeful. There is no glory or praise to be surrounded by those inferior unless you are planning some sort of attack, battle, or winning, keeping in mind their disposable nature. Otherwise, inhibiting one's own intellectual advancement by contributing and subjecting themselves to the group dumbing down process is not a King's move; you're just another social pawn who will inevitably be knocked off the board.

If you choose to be alone, make it work for you. Read more, branch out into fields and areas of study or training which are outside of your comfort zone. Build your life around that knowledge, seeking out those who are wiser, experimental, and more successful than yourself. Then study these people. Socialize with these people–––not the coffeehouse turd, status quo seeker, or social underclassmen–– Satanists included. Treat these people like a disease, you can always get them to do your bidding later .

Learn to use introversion and extroversion skillfully, and to your benefit. Too much exposure for anyone, unless having already gained a high level of status, only makes them appear socially weak, common, and unimportant. Even losers don't want to hang out with other losers.
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#54476 - 05/15/11 11:33 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Dark Beauty]
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
I don't plan to be a hermit, quite the contrary I'm working on better social skills and social networking. However there is no benefit of me living next to someone who will break in my house and rob me or having a "friend" who contributes nothing to my life but only wants to parasite off me. That is the elite principle I would like a circle of friends who have some value.

We are built on an altruistic principle- a synergy of sorts- I contribute something to their life, they contribute something to me, we all continue to build each other's power. however when we waste energy on low altruism and low quality people all that effort basically gets tossed into the trash bin. They become a black hole of success and energy. By contrast a high altruism person will actually multiply each other's efforts.

I have lived my whole life around useless degenerates. They are a dime a dozen. Why I'm going out in every place I can find talking about my goals is to find those few people who are looking for something similar.

One problem is that the successful usually don't talk much, they are busy working on projects so don't have much time to meet new people or conversely they are only seeking out those richer or more powerful than themselves, or they already have social networks. Secondly I'm poor, despite my ability, it makes me seem less appealing to all people. However I seek to attract people who understand the value of my vision and the obvious benefits it can reap.

Of course within this context I can exploit the weaklings through business etc. but not by making them my trusted colleagues or close neighbors.

I believe the intellectually oriented people do enjoy some time alone and in silence to reflect though. I have spent most of my life alone, reading books etc. I'm ready to move on to more concrete things, networking etc. though.

Dark beauty: exactly. Quality over quantity that's why I'm looking to find close associates. Not only quality but also in many cases similarity in world view, goals etc. is necessary.



Edited by Thule (05/15/11 11:37 AM)
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#54490 - 05/15/11 04:15 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I hope you notice the fundamental flaw in this sort of logic: if you only socialize with the successful and avoid the losers, why would these successful socialize with you? In their eyes, you're also a loser and if they follow the same logic, they'll avoid you like the plague.

D.

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#54500 - 05/16/11 04:12 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Diavolo]
Dark Beauty Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 13
The only fundamental flaw is in thinking there isn't at least one person whom you can appeal to. You have more to lose by remaining in a comfort zone with social leeches, psychic vampires, and the overly-social irritant, than you would in trying to promote your business ideas to those whom could possibly offer assistance. One drags you to their level, and the other, even if in failure, allows one to improve and strengthen your tactics.

The assumption has been made that one is aware of their talents and has something of value to contribute, rather than mindless, thought draining, sycophantic chit chat. The wealthy and successful admire and respect talent, tenacity, and courage–– since that is a shared fundamental commonality between them. You are not a threat to someone who has already achieved their success when you're just beginning, so you're chances of having them as an ally is that much greater.

The successful like others with original ideas, and often if evident that one is serious in their pursuits, and may offer some support (financial, a contact, or otherwise) for your endeavors. This is elementary when you expand your social contacts, is the power of networking, and learning how to "play well" with others.

I can only speak from my experience, as this has been mine. I'd rather be lonely at the top than inhaling the stench of failure, with plenty of company, at the bottom.
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"I'm not who you think I am, nor what you think I should be."

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#54508 - 05/16/11 10:24 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Dark Beauty]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The most common problem in gathering money is that most people are one-trick ponies; they focus solely on one option. I hardly care about money but I learned that if money is what you have in mind, opportunities are what you should look for. Not one opportunity but anything worthwhile which comes along. As such, the most important part, the true fieldwork is networking. And it is not by focusing on the successful alone you encounter opportunities, but often people that are hardly successful reveal opportunities too.

Personally I don't classify people as “winner” or “loser” based upon their financial status. What kind of a person someone is makes them interesting. I hardly care if they are wealthy or broke and am secure enough to not have anyone “drag” me down.

D.

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#54517 - 05/16/11 11:29 AM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Diavolo]
Thule Offline
temp banned
pledge


Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
Note: understand this is not totally about making money and increasing power. That's one aspect of it. It is about being around similar people. It is about community.

Humans are social creatures. We all socialize. What differs is how we do it.

I have discovered that rich people more or less organize exactly as my Hraftzer group. I thought what we were doing was strange at first because mainly I've lived in the lower portions of society.

Going around millionaire areas every other block is an "exclusive" club (country club or some sort). Almost all politicians, wealthy businesmen etc. are part of a "private society" such as a college fraternity, free masons, and so on.

There's really nothing unusual about it and there are probably over 100,000 such clubs. Only major difference is we aren't rich.

But usually its the poor but motivated who have the best ideas. I once read that. Some wealthy businessman said he would rather hire someone who has been poor and worked himself up instead of a highly educated person who was born in wealth. Because those who were poor have more drive and see the world more completely.

So the only unique angle really is just every group has its own culture and personality. Some people can join the masons or some other group we are just one of many. In fact I encourage people to join many such groups. I might join the masons or something myself and later get involved in various clubs if they benefit me.

So a big difference is successful people usually have social clubs that involve making money. meanwhile maybe poor people join the KKK or the Crips and Bloods or some other criminal gang. Or maybe they join a video game club or dress up like harry potter in their medieval reenactment club. Our club is a little more cultured and focused on wealth, empowerment, manifesting etc. And also we dont live around a lot of people who are the same as us so we have to stick our necks out to meet people.

So back to the thread- pragmatism. More elite groups are pragmatic. They want to go out and accomplish something. They want to do better everyday. They exercise. They constantly learn. They are cultured, they are striving for excellence. The lower class clubs just sit around talking, complaining, trying to sound smart without accomplishing anything, or just focusing on mostly killing time with games or other such things.

That's what I meant I'm looking for pragmatic people. Like someone who will meet me in real life and go in on a business deal with me. Or someone who wants to meet once a week and train in martial arts or do yoga. Goal oriented, focused on self improvement and results.

Online a lot of people talk non-sense which would not hold up in the real world. They just get online to kill time. It's that pragmatism that I'm looking for because I want to better my life.

I don't have a TV now. I threw it out. It wastes too much of my time. I don't want to waste my life away. I want to get the most out of life. It's not about working hard all the time- I have met people with two jobs that work 24 hours a day. no.

It's about focusing on self improvement but also enjoying the finer things in life. And our group are mainly intellectuals so we work with what gifts god gave us- we can plot and scheme our way to wealth through cooperation.

There is a spiritual principles as well- being part of something larger than yourself, so that it carries on after you die. It is also a better basis for raising a family (being part of a community, culture etc.)

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I hope you notice the fundamental flaw in this sort of logic: if you only socialize with the successful and avoid the losers, why would these successful socialize with you? In their eyes, you're also a loser and if they follow the same logic, they'll avoid you like the plague.

D.


Exactly. This is the main problem. If you are rich and I am poor then you are going to be very skeptical about my competence and ability.

At the same time when I go to poor people they are too stupid and unmotivated. This is the main reason we don't have a lot of numbers.

Our target demographic are people like us- poor, but intelligent. Motivated. Very few fit this score. My parents and family are losers. That's why I'm in this mess. Any healthy people with intelligence would be successful in any Western nation.

Yet I continue to build up my credentials via things like education. I continue to build my wealth and appeal to as many people as possible. Over time we grow.

Really a group as small as 5 people would be able to accomplish a lot. There is no need for huge numbers. Of course it would always be nice, but not needed.

But it's not a flaw of logic. Even so, there will be a few people who are rich who will like me or see the logic in what I'm doing and say "hey I feel like getting involved". As well there might be some poor person with a functioning brain cell occasionally that is maybe interested. What you stated above though is what excludes about 98% of people from the group.

Of course once it starts growing and is successful then everyone wants to join. All groups more or less start this way.





Edited by Thule (05/16/11 11:47 AM)
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#54634 - 05/17/11 10:49 PM Re: Pragmatism [Re: Thule]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: Thule
There is a spiritual principles as well- being part of something larger than yourself, so that it carries on after you die.


I got some ideas I have to share about money and groups:

To materially prosper: You have to attack the most vulnerable spot in any system. For two things, you have to continuously work on your group's psychology and dire attempts subsequently are made to create a subjective attitude corresponding to that of genuine philosophically-disposed or religiously-directed Mind(s). The latter has a strong inner prompting while the former is only desirious of following a leader. The imitator is lacking in the needs as is demonstrated by the desire to follow something.

All that you need is to be helped by some internal means.

No doubt Satanism completes the picture when the discipline is properly guided by an experienced Satanist. Thus properly guided, the imitator may some day hope to become a genuine member of the group. But, there is one thing which requires a full recognition on the part of every devotee: This is to remeber that each group you form is an expression of Intelligence and that every such expression gains significance only when it is associated with the Self.

Sedit
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