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#55342 - 06/01/11 02:46 PM Re: Can a Symbolic Satanist be Liberal? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
The longer we wait to do...

We? How much did you pay in taxes last year?

 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
I'd like you to explain how anything I've presented reduces personal freedom.


I already have. More than once.


 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
What freedoms are being lost that are so important as to screw yourself out of better, cheaper health care and a cleaner environment?


Cheaper? Man you do not live in the real world. Have you ever had dependents or had to pay your own way? I just realized that I'm trying to talk about actual real world experience with someone who has very little to none.

I'm done here. You can (and will eventually have to) do your own homework.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#55345 - 06/01/11 03:23 PM Re: Can a Symbolic Satanist be Liberal? [Re: Fnord]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
How much did you pay in taxes last year?


85 euro income taxes. I pays to play with the dodgers. ;\)

D.

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#55348 - 06/01/11 04:19 PM Re: Can a Symbolic Satanist be Liberal? [Re: Fnord]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
No, I have no dependents. I do take care of myself. I work, I go to school, I pay taxes, I pay bills, and I invest what little I can. It seems that I am talking to somebody that has led a privileged life and probably has never even interacted with people less fortunate than yourself. I've had to work for every little thing I have because I came from a poor family. I was not handed a damn thing, I even had to teach myself to drive because nobody else in my family has a car and I couldn't afford car payments, insurance, gas, and driving lessons while paying my share of rent and utilities at the age of 16 with a part time job. I had to break the law and drive on a learner's permit just to get that one simple thing. That is only one small example. I am still young, and still working for the things I want, but I probably have more life experience doing whatever it takes to get ahead than you ever will.

I've done my homework, which is how I came to these conclusions. Americans spend more on healthcare than any other nation and still our healthcare is rated as one of the worse of industrialized countries. Other countries have national healthcare programs, spend less money on it, and are rated higher. What do you think is cheaper in the long run, drilling for oil and fighting wars for dominance over dwindling oil supplies, or a combination of wind turbines, solar panels, and hydro-electric? Reality seems to agree with my statements and it seems to me that you have a confirmation bias.

Rather than going on and on about how you've given examples in the past, why not present some of them now for scrutiny. I'll even allow you to link or even cut and paste. I don't care. I'm not going to search them out for the simple pleasure of making a fool out of you. I have better things to do with my time. Either show me what freedoms are being lost, or stop whining about it.

I'm not telling you how much I paid in taxes, but I didn't get any breaks if that is what you're implying. If you do have dependents, you probably got more breaks than I did as taxes are concerned.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#55349 - 06/01/11 04:38 PM Re: Can a Symbolic Satanist be Liberal? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
It seems that I am talking to somebody that has led a privileged life and probably has never even interacted with people less fortunate than yourself.


Again, so far off base that it's not even funny. When I was a kid my brother and I walked up and down the road (a dirt one) collecting discarded bottles so my old man could buy his cigarettes. I've been on my own, with no support from anyone since I was 17. I put myself through school by working manual labor jobs with ongoing physical disabilities that most would kill themselves over. You don't know this precisely because it's not an issue for me. I used my own personal power to overcome.

Whining is not what I do.

And no, I'm not rehashing this stuff over again just to suit you. I've provided the basis for my philosophy twice in this thread alone. Go look at the global warming thread for starters or don't. There is much discussion there about the points you try to make here.

Your green friends promote things like wind turbines, solar panels etc with no real world plan on how to implement it all and make it functional. Look up T Boone Pickens if you doubt me and then circle back to Obama wanting to kill the coal industry. It's a simple matter of breaking what's working (with issues, yes) without a moving forward plan firmly in place. This is otherwise known as a pie in the sky solution for fun and votes.
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Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#55351 - 06/01/11 05:41 PM Re: Can a Symbolic Satanist be Liberal? [Re: Fnord]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Actually plenty of plans have been proposed, your types are just never happy with anything except sticking with "what is already working" despite high cost, pollutants, and inefficiency. It is already broken. Denmark, I think it's Denmark, has done well in implementing solar. It is not like we are completely void of examples of these technologies being functionally implemented.

Personally, I would prefer to see people take care of the situation themselves. It doesn't take much to set up some solar panels and a small wind generator or two. I actually know a guy that produce enough electricity on their own property that they actually sell energy to the local electric company. If more people would just provide more of their own electricity, we wouldn't have to worry about oil and coal as much. I'd be happy with that.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#55355 - 06/01/11 06:19 PM Re: Can a Symbolic Satanist be Liberal? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
We had a huge governmental promotion and subsidizing of solar energy during the last years, mainly backed by our red and green brothers. Sure you generate your own power, during daytime, and sure the energy companies pay you for what you deliver. But they pay way less than what you have to pay them for night-time energy and, what they admit now, solar energy is very ineffective, as is wind energy.

I suggest you drive through Denmark one day and admire those windmills; it is as visually attractive as looking at dog crap.

At this moment our green and red brothers sell only dreams. But it's good for the votes.

PS: I forgot to add the funny bit; the price of electricity increased this year because of...you never guess... all those subsidized solar panels. Funny huh?

D.


Edited by Diavolo (06/01/11 06:20 PM)

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#55360 - 06/01/11 08:15 PM Re: Can a Symbolic Satanist be Liberal? [Re: Diavolo]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
I've never supported government subsidies. Being in support of environmental awareness does not equal supporting every stupid little policy put forward on the subject. The fact that electric companies don't pay as much for electricity as they charge doesn't really have any effect on the matter. I actually like looking at the windmills, not in Denmark, but there are some near by. I actually was not in favor of their construction since I would rather see people have their own, but I don't find them unappealing to look at.

I might support certain regulations on businesses to help with environmental issues, such as pollution or material usage, if they seem to make sense. I really don't see much the government has to do when it comes to environmental issues outside of this except maybe large energy projects much like the Hoover Dam.

Current solar technologies are inefficient, I will give you that. As for being ineffective, solar and wind seem to work pretty damn well for those I know that use them. It is an investment in energy savings.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#55383 - 06/02/11 08:56 AM Re: Can a Symbolic Satanist be Liberal? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Although I like nature and prefer there to be “wild” areas, I don't buy the environmental disaster they so fanatically predict the last years and I sure as hell don't buy the hype that if we'd all become aware and do our bit, we'll solve the “predicted” problem.

Anyone taking a good look will notice that us investing in “cleaner” energy will lead to no cleaner world when at the same time other continents are heavily industrialized. Some solar panels and wind mills are a drop on a hot plate when looking what is “polluted” in China, India and within a decade; Africa. All we are doing with this green thinking is competing ourselves even more out of the production market. We not only have to compete with slave-wages and no regulations, now we're going to add more and more “green “ costs too. Taking care of nature might really take us back to nature.

Other energy sources might be useful to become energy-independent and if that is what is desired, nuclear energy is the route to take, together with electric cars. If we'd be able to make that move, we could export water at the same dollar a gallon they sell us oil now. That would be amusing at the least.

All this disaster thinking is nothing new; I'm old enough to have lived through nuclear holocaust, meteor mayhem, the new ice age and now the apocalyptic global warming.

I'm still alive.

D.

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#55483 - 06/05/11 01:42 AM Re: Can a Symbolic Satanist be Liberal? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
Lucifer Rising, you might want to check out other threads that you missed while you were away before going at anyone about the topic of solar/wind energy. A quick search will open up some interesting previously discussed threads on the subject.

You personally might like looking at turbines because you've viewed one here or there locally, but we've seen them in our travels and let me tell you, they're not that enticing to look at when there's 100'a of them in rows and maybe 1/4 of them are moving/producing. They aren't as "cost affective" as others would have you believe.

Here's a few "great" images.....
http://www.offshore.no/admin/ewebeditpro2/upload/Beatrice%20Downvind%20turbine_jpg.jpg
http://www.ronsaari.com/stockImages/windmills/WindFarmPalmSpringsCA.jpg

As interesting as that all might look to you, remember that all of those (and 100's more all over the US) aren't producing enough energy to do away with our current power plants. It takes our current resources to produce those turbines. Also, for the average person it can take between 15 to 20 years for their investment to start paying for itself, and the truth of the matter is that no one can give an actual "life span" for the solar panels that've just been invested in to. We all ready know the turbines need regular maintenance to continue to produce affectively. Oh, how the list goes on and on for those great "green" adventures.....

On to your health care topic....Talk to someone about the "national healthcare" system of say...Canada. My grandmother held dual citizenship and had health care in Canada. She hated it. Said there was soooo much that needed changed bacause of the restrictions that were placed on where she could get her health care, what meds she was allowed, and the list went on and on. National Health care does not decrease the costs. Ask anyone who currently carries health insurance and they can tell you HOW much it's all ready increased. You can bet it won't decrease once everyone is covered. Things like insurance DON'T ever go down in cost and if you were a part of the middle class, you wouldn't be saying "so what" to an added expense you actually shouldn't be paying for someone else, yet again. Yes, middle class may get a tax break for having a child, but do you know how much insurance is for a family and/or a spouse each month? By the way, as pay increases, tax breaks decrease and health insurance stays the same or increases.

Lastly on health care, those that visit the emergency rooms do not always pay for services rendered. The hospital has several ways of dealing with people that can't pay (you'll have to ask next time you visit an emergency room and mention the word "indigent"). For those that have really high bills and end up not being able to pay, they take a "charge off" or tax write off for the "uncollectable" accounts. Even though they get the break, they can still increase their services to try to compensate for those losses through out the year, before they can write off the bad debts. Those rates then never go back down either.

Oh, and just a little bit of observation.....You don't have to know Fnord personally to understand that those who have been here for a while and have been a Satanist for any length of time have traveled some interesting pathes to get here. Yours is not the only one to be unique in some way or another and sometimes, just sometimes, it's best not to assume how other people have gotten to where they currently are. You'd be amazed at some of the "histories" here if you took the time to read the older threads or threads you did in fact miss while you were gone. Remember, you chose to interact here, not the other way around. It's wise to at least take the time to learn about those you've chosen to post with.
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If only just for today.....

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#55557 - 06/07/11 01:14 AM Re: Can a Symbolic Satanist be Liberal? [Re: Nyte]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Nyte, you are correct that I shouldn't make assumptions. I should apologize to Fnord for my mistake. The reason for the assumption was that it appeared Fnord has never gone without health insurance because of his claim regarding emergency rooms. I did not claim that people that went to emergency rooms did have to pay, but as I said, you can't go to the emergency room for everything. I've had an experience of this myself, so I'm not just blowing smoke out my rear.

Fnord, I do apologize for making an untrue assumption. You might be glad to know I did find at least one of the threads of which you spoke. Unfortunately, I did not find anything from you in that thread that had any real substance. It still appears to me that you are backed only by assumptions and opinions.

To return to healthcare for a moment, it is fairly common knowledge, as I stated before, that countries with nationalized healthcare systems tend to cost less and have higher ratings. As far as asking people from such countries their opinions, I have on multiple occasions; the healthcare system is actually something which I always ask people I know from other countries about. I have received both good and bad reviews. However, it must be noted that in my experience the majority of bad reviews came from individuals that had no experience with a privatized system or had some procedure they believed needed quicker attention than their systems could provide. The vast majority of people I've talked on the issue from these countries approve of their systems overall, even if they had some issues with it.

For the environment, the scientific data shows that human beings have been changing the composition of the atmosphere. This in and of itself is not a bad thing, perhaps inevitable, but I assure you it will have consequences of some sort. Climate change may not be something we can avoid, the Earth goes through cycles, but I find it irresponsible to not take notice of our impact when we are aware of it. I really shouldn't have to go into why nuclear energy is a bad idea. Creating radioactive waste we have to keep in storage somewhere for thousands of years is just a ridiculously irresponsible consequence of the technology. As I said before, I do not care what other countries are doing. This is because I view your impact as your personal responsibility. Solar technologies are not that great at the moment, but they are researching to make the technology better. Personal wind generators can be made fairly cheap and do not require an unreasonable amount of maintenance. Micro-hydro is also a good option if you have running water on your property. I do not think the government should impose stifling, unreasonable regulation on business, but I do think businesses do need environmental regulation.

I am not your average environmental nutter. I did not agree with Cap and Trade or government subsidies. I did not desire the construction of large wind farms, though I still don't find them aesthetically unappealing. I am not in favor of an immediate overhaul of the current system. I am in favor of individuals taking the initiative for energy independence and clean energy, and of research and development to make clean energy technologies cheaper and more efficient.

If any of these statements make me a bad Satanist in your eyes, I don't really care. I am open to discussion, but I am not going to sit around and let people tell me I'm wrong and then not back anything they say with anything substantial.


Edited by Lucifer Rising (06/07/11 01:22 AM)
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#55613 - 06/09/11 12:45 AM Re: Can a Symbolic Satanist be Liberal? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising

For the environment, the scientific data shows that human beings have been changing the composition of the atmosphere. This in and of itself is not a bad thing, perhaps inevitable, but I assure you it will have consequences of some sort.


Where is that data? If there were such a smoking gun it would be broadcast from the rooftops.

As for the rest:

I said your theories were pie-in-the-sky. They still are. If you can show me a plan illustrating how we can switch off the oil in one second and replace it in the next with wind/water etc then I will concede all of your points. That kind of immediate replacement is what would be necessary or those dependent on electricity/gas (ie everyone) would be unable to perform their tasks and it would shut down the economy. Obama threatening to kill the coal industry before such a plan is in place is illustrative of 'hope & change' stupidity.

Develop it, sure. Make a plan to wean everyone off of oil. If it's feasible, I'd welcome it provided that it would help and not hinder the economy. Until that point all of the talk about wind/water/hydro without oil is bullshit. People are making a lot of money from oil, including lots of folks who vote left and lots of folks who vote right. Until a model is put in place where the power structure can reap equal benefit from wind/water/pie oil will remain (ask Tesla how it worked out for him).

Healthcare:
You've shared anecdotal stories and suggested that countries who have national healthcare systems rate higher than the US system. Prove it.

Prove what you say about energy replacement, prove what you say about healthcare or stop suggesting the facts are on your side via the method of anecdotal argument.

I don't have a problem with reasonable change. I have no reason to stay personally committed to oil. If you can make my car run on water then by all means please do so. Just don't take my gas away before you back that shit up. If you can provide me free and awesome healthcare that I don't have to pay for, I'm all for it!

What the data actually supports though is that bullshit programs are paid for by guys like me via taxation (bailouts, anyone?) and it's always a money grab that benefits people other than the middle class. You don't think the trillions of dollars that were put into someone's coffers could have funded research for your energy program?

Believe what you want.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#55636 - 06/09/11 05:48 PM Re: Can a Symbolic Satanist be Liberal? [Re: Fnord]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Fnord

I said your theories were pie-in-the-sky. They still are. If you can show me a plan illustrating how we can switch off the oil in one second and replace it in the next with wind/water etc then I will concede all of your points. That kind of immediate replacement is what would be necessary or those dependent on electricity/gas (ie everyone) would be unable to perform their tasks and it would shut down the economy.


I dont think any serious debater on the issue actually stands for a switch from oil to something else in "one second" as you put it. Of course it has to be gradual and I think everyone realizes this. However I am of the belief that the switch wont happen if the plans keep being to develop what we already have (oil, nuclear energy etc) since that means relying on the old idea and it will surely mean less funding for research and development of a new alternative.

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#55663 - 06/10/11 08:10 AM Re: Can a Symbolic Satanist be Liberal? [Re: TheInsane]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
Worded badly on my part.

I meant that any replacement has to work as well or better in immediate fashion to be a feasible alternative. The natives get restless without power.

By the by, I have a friend who lives by Niagra Falls. His power bill is close to nothing as his electicity is generated via a hydro-electric plant. I'm sure there are other working examples right here in the US.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#55980 - 06/17/11 04:05 PM Re: Can a Symbolic Satanist be Liberal? [Re: Fnord]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Okay, I've decided to meet your challenge. With what limited time I had I found a few sources for you.

Climate:
Trends in Carbon Dioxide
EPA page on CO2

These links were gathered in the time I had, so admittedly not the best sources, but they are still good sources.

I'll have to come back to properly show you a semi-realistic plan that could replace the current system. In the mean time, I will remind you that I am not suggesting an immediate change from one way to another, but I will attempt to show how it is possible as well as what would have to happen, costs and benefits, job replacements and/or creation, and long term stability as far as both power and economy or lack of there.

Health care:
Global health care rankings (old)
GDP% health care expendature (old)
Inequities In Health Care: A Five-Country Survey (newer, but not as informative)
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#56202 - 06/23/11 06:56 PM Re: Can a Symbolic Satanist be Liberal? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
As far as climate goes
ice age-not ice age-climate change

It's pure common sense that the planet goes through enironental changes so that's really a nonpoint.

Moving on to the topic we all know that our dependence on is a threat. That it allows for our systems to be ifluenced by OPEC(an alliance of facist nations...) and that it is a problem. Thus alternative sources are perferable but:

nuclear energy is the most effective exceeding the potential of wind, hydro and solar. The problem is we don't exactly know what the hell we're and so the domestic applications do not exist roght now.

Wind produces virtually no electriity not to mention the fact that very few areas have the wind speeds and space to put them in. The same goes for solar.

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