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#53958 - 05/05/11 12:38 AM Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb
Shea Offline
member


Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 108
Loc: Chicago
I recall there being some people with Libertarian leanings on the board; as a friendly reminder:

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/

You can make a donation, see if we can reach the $2 million mark before the first GOP debate.

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#54068 - 05/07/11 07:13 PM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Shea]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
I don't think Ron Paul is seriously going to run for president, more importantly as much as I respect Paul he little chance of winning. Ron is just to reasonable and educated to survive a republican primary.
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#54087 - 05/08/11 12:09 AM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Meph9]
Shea Offline
member


Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 108
Loc: Chicago
Paul's won something like 10 elections in Texas; he knows something about winning. I do understand what you're driving at though, and I know in terms of media coverage, he's at a definite disadvantage.
I'm still enough of an idealist to throw my support behind a long-shot, especially when it's a case I feel so strongly about. Liberty is worth taking a few ideological potshots for in my opinion.

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#54104 - 05/08/11 12:03 PM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Shea]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
One of the main reasons Paul did not win the Republican nomination was due to the McCain and Romney camps painting Paul as a nutcase.

Now, however, I think a lot of people realize that if we'd listened to Paul's conservative economic strategy, and had not spread our military so thin across the world, we might have avoided this recession we're currently dealing with.

It's pretty tough painting a guy as a loony the second time around when he was right all along. I think that will put him in better stead to win the Republican party nomination. It's not like there's a great choice of candidates to pick from: Trump (lol), Huckabee (running on the anti-abortion platform), Gingrich, Michele Bachmann (airhead), and Romney (the only real contender to Paul). Everyone else is a nobody.
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#54236 - 05/10/11 01:27 AM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Shea]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
Yes congressman Paul but the fact is Ron Paul doesn't play ball with the GOP leadership. This election cycle I don't see a candidate winning the Republican primary without saying that obama is muslim/foreign, or that nonexistant "islamic socialists" are trying to destroy America...

Ron Paul is too reasonable to win the nomination.

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#54239 - 05/10/11 01:39 AM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Meph9]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
So are you saying don't back the candidate because he's too right?

(oh my GAWD! Here she goes again...)

That's the damned problem with this country: half the people in it are backing a pile of shit because they are too afraid that they'll be the only ones standing in the camp of the guy who would do a good job. Perhaps if each person who is too chickenshit to put some muscle in their politics just refrained from voting or voicing, we could get the douchebags out of the capitol.

Do me a favor and punch yourself in the ear (because I hit like a girl). You probably voted for Obama anyway. That deserves at least a kick in the balls.

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#54240 - 05/10/11 02:09 AM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: ceruleansteel]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Okay, I like Ron Paul. I simply wish there was somebody running on a similar platform I think could handle the presidency. Let's say he wins the election, do you think he can deal with the senate and the house? He might be able to win over a couple of the supreme court justices, but that's it. Do you think the members of the Republican party are going to back him up? Do you expect him to get help from the Democrats. If elected, I cannot see him being able to do much with it. The Democrats were barely able to do anything when they had a majority across the board, so what is Ron Paul going to do?

I don't see him winning the election, and I don't see him being able to do much if he did. I could be wrong, I hope I am. I'm probably going to vote for him anyway. I'll let you know though, I'll vote for Obama before voting for any other Republican.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#54245 - 05/10/11 09:24 AM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: ceruleansteel]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
That's the damned problem with this country: half the people in it are backing a pile of shit because they are too afraid that they'll be the only ones standing in the camp of the guy who would do a good job. Perhaps if each person who is too chickenshit to put some muscle in their politics just refrained from voting or voicing, we could get the douchebags out of the capitol.


Politics and democracy, in some ways, are the very essence of "might makes right".

If you're afraid to stand up for what you believe in, then you're a coward. If, on the other hand, your choice is between a bad choice and nothing, well, sometimes it makes sense to take the bad choice. Actions have consequences, and life goes on.

You see, I trust, how political campaigns actually work. If a candidate wants to win, then being "right" is usually irrelevant.
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#54246 - 05/10/11 09:27 AM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Shea Offline
member


Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 108
Loc: Chicago
One thing he could do, with absolutely no help at all, is limit the role of the executive office in legislative matters. Shoot, imagine writing an executive order, that disalowed executive orders that created too sweeping of a legislative reform!

Outside of that, if Ron Paul wins, it will be on the notion of sound money and embracing the economy propounded by the Austrian economists and actually making our money worth something. If he wins, it will be because the sensible people of our society temporarily united to endorse the notion of a free market--no way the chambers of the senate would try to take a stand against things like this, provided Ron Paul was able to retain a bit of momentum going into the White House.

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#54256 - 05/10/11 11:18 AM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Shea]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
 Originally Posted By: Shea
If he wins, it will be because the sensible people of our society temporarily united to endorse the notion of a free market--no way the chambers of the senate would try to take a stand against things like this...

I think you underestimate how stubborn politicians can be.

 Originally Posted By: Shea
One thing he could do, with absolutely no help at all, is limit the role of the executive office in legislative matters.

So let's imagine for a moment he is elected and I am right about him having trouble gaining support for his ideas in the legislative branch. What you want him to do is use his executive power to limit executive power so he will be able to do even less. The scope of executive power is not even a primary concern of mine. A person can give himself total control, claim himself emperor if he wants, if he is able to run the country well enough. Wouldn't bother me. I support him because I agree with most of his ideas. I'd rather see him "abuse" his executive powers to get things done than have him simply give them away and achieve nothing.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#54315 - 05/10/11 11:54 PM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Shea Offline
member


Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 108
Loc: Chicago
Plainly you're not very familiar with Ron Paul's ideas. The thrust of his philosophy rests upon the notion that the government is too intrusive and paternalistic; Ron Paul is respectable precisely because he is a proponent of individualism and small government. By their very definition, Ron Paul's ideas in governance couldn't be "abusively" enforced. It would be like a pacifist punching people until they adopted pacifism.

If he limited the role of Executive Legislation (which should be somewhat of an oxymoron, if one gives any deep consideration to the Constitution), yes it would limit his influence. But, it would also limit the power of all the statists to take the office after him; at least temporarily. Realistically speaking, the dichotomy that exists between individuality and collectivism can never be resolved; especially in the government.

Additionally, I'm certain I haven't underestimated the nature of politicians. Calling them stubborn implies that the bulk of them actually have a political agenda that they consistently follow. They don't. Special interests run our government.

Of course, lobbyists aren't to be blamed; they're playing the system as it stands. If you limit the power of the government, it doesn't matter who buys what congressman as their individual influence will be much less valuable in the long run.

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#54316 - 05/10/11 11:59 PM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: ceruleansteel]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
So are you saying don't back the candidate because he's too right?

Uh no that's almost the exact of what I said, you completely misunderstand. I not saying a whole lot about Ron's actual ideas/policies what I saying is that the GOP is infected with a forever ignorant group of social conservatives. Would the party be smart to choose Paul? Yes, but at this point seeing as how upwards 1 in 10 Republicans believes Obama is a muslim foreigner I'm not sure that there to be using a whole lot of logic in selecting their nominee. Everyone from Trump to Huckabee or Bachmann has on at least one point tried to play into that lunatic narrative, and since the GOP leadership is too cowardly to denounce that nonsense it's going to hurt them.

Lets look at most of the frontrunners on the right:
Gingrich who apparrently believes that Obama's political philosophy is based on "Kenya anticolonial socialism"(what ever hell that is)

Bachmann and Palin have been cheerleaders for the birther type ideology for some time now.

You've even got Huckabee who usually doesn't dumb things like this attempting to pander to the fools about the "socialism, Mau Mau rebellion..."

Frankly I think it comes down to the fact that Ron Paul unlike people like Gingrich, Boehner, McConnell and so on Mr.Paul seems unwilling to support these ideas because he knows they are true.
Republicans for the most part love that fanatical ideology so that means who ever is going to win the nomination is going to have to is pander to the dumbasses to beat the other right wing candidates, but in doing so they will turn off the majority of the country who can't stand their conspiracy theories.


But there is always the chance that I'm completely wrong because if you asked me a couple years ago if I thought the birther movement was going grow after 2008 election I would have never believed that. It's going to be a crazy race so all bets off.

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#54330 - 05/11/11 12:43 PM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Meph9]
Thule Offline
temp banned
pledge


Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
Whoever wins is mostly chosen by billionaires, bankers and people with political power (secret societies as well). These people are robbing America to fill their own pockets and special interests. Ron Paul goes against the establishment too much so they will not support him. Even if all the losers in America support Paul he won't win without the backing of the people in power.

The TV screen tells most people who to vote for. I'm amazed Paul even gets on TV with his reasonable views and revealing the truth about our money system and such. So if I had money to throw away I would give it to him, but I don't think it will do much good. But if I was a billionaire and could actually do some good with the money and give him a good chance at winning something I would maybe throw money at it.

Really the main thing Paul does is bring certain issues to attention for people and maybe influence politicians to be more reasonable. I feel like it would be more realistic for him to simply be a congressman or something. Running for president mostly he is just getting his name and ideas out there rather than actually winning anything.

That's one reason I want to form my own private society. If we were rich and owned a TV station we could have a real voice in politics.

Money and power is what gets people elected, not casting your vote. For every 1 educated and reasonable person there are about 10,000 uneducated morons voting (usually based on what their pastor or TV told them to vote for). That's modern democracy (watch the documentary "happiness machines" on youtube to learn about an Edward Bernay's type of "democracy" that we have today.).

The presidential election is the biggest joke. That's when all the idiots come out to vote and the most publicized. The president is like an actor made to entertain the masses, and has little power himself anyway. The real power would be to run in the private circles of people who fund the presidnt, special interests groups, secret societies etc.

And to have your vote count vote for an election which isn't publicized so has a lower turn out.
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#54332 - 05/11/11 01:06 PM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Meph9]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
No, I understand his ideas. However, there are times you have to give up some ideals, at least temporarily, in the name of pragmatism. You are right about special interest, and I don't see any politician giving up on their investors. Also, many politicians are actually stubborn about certain things, especially when it comes to social issues. The best bet he would have to make many of the changes he wants to put forward is to use what executive power is available to him. If he gets into office and just gives that away, he won't have enough support in the legislative branch to do a damn thing. You are naive if you think otherwise.

I agree with him that there is too much government interference in people's personal lives. He could use executive orders to make at least some of the changes that would help in his cause. If then he wants to give up that power, that would be understandable. However, I personally don't care about the constitution, I don't care about democracy, and I don't care about how power is distributed. I could happily live in a dictatorship if the government stays out of my personal business and does well running the country. I simply think his ideas are the best presented to me as a choice.
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Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#54336 - 05/11/11 01:36 PM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
I could happily live in a dictatorship if the government stays out of my personal business and does well running the country.


I could happily live in a dictatorship <> the government stays out of my personal business.

Can you provide an example of how that "<>" sign could ever change to an "=" sign?

I agree with him that there is too much government interference in people's personal lives.

I wonder if all those folks living under Kim Jong Il (who is a dictator) feel free to pursue their personal business?

I'd bet not.
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#54338 - 05/11/11 02:57 PM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Fnord]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Kim Jong Il is just a bad example. He doesn't do a good job running the country and is incredibly intrusive. It would be very difficult to come up with a contemporary example of a good dictator, but it doesn't rule out the possibility. That is why I had conditions to that statement. I think Kublai Khan did pretty well. He united all of China and almost certainly improved the quality of life for its people while increasing their relative freedom and promoting multiculturalism.

No system is perfect, and, considering how intellectually deficient I view the majority of people, I know democracy is not. If somebody was to take over the nation, then ran things with minimal intervention and did it well, what would you have to complain about? I think there's a greater chance of that happening than a democracy ever getting things right because people are just too damned stupid on average.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#54401 - 05/13/11 03:12 AM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Lucifer Rising]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
because people are just too damned stupid on average.

I may have taken your quote out of context but those are the words I agree with.

Even here on a forum of those who like to think they are critical thinkers, the elite, those above the plebs and what is that word oh yeah mundanes yet you still talk like RP might ever have a chance of winning "the electoral college vote". You talk like your vote means anything beyond counting to let your states electoral votes count. Like these presidential debates are anything but mental masturbation.

Come on people they taught me this in the fourth fucking grade.

An example: You tell me you want a butterfly tattoo I show you three and say choose one. I still control your choice by showing you three to choose from. I'm not showing you anything I think is ugly or anything I wouldn't want to do. Get it yet?

Now what if you got to pick one yet the electoral chose another so that was what you get, what then?

Why do I see while I am forced to walk amongst so many who are blind?

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#54402 - 05/13/11 03:27 AM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: ta2zz]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
Why do I see while I am forced to walk amongst so many who are blind?

It's not that they are blind, they are just hard-wired in thinking to be free in their birdcage.
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#54415 - 05/14/11 02:33 AM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Dimitri]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
Why do I see while I am forced to walk amongst so many who are blind?

It's not that they are blind, they are just hard-wired in thinking to be free in their birdcage.

I cannot see any difference.

General reply;

To think I still hoped someone could out think the logic I provided and show me where I was wrong. Without that I fear any talk of who is running and/or who is voting is simply an exercise in futility. Nothing more than trying to convince yourselves of the self inflated value of your own opinions.

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#54424 - 05/14/11 08:00 AM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: ta2zz]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
It isn't a big secret you point at ta2zz. In voting choice doesn't imply you can choose something as much as you can choose from something.

“Here is the list of all candidates and you may vote for the one you like.”

In the end you are deluded in believing you have some influence at the game while they defined the rules along which you are forced to play. In that, no matter what the outcome will be, it will always be within their expectations.

It's a lottery where when your ticket wins, the money goes to someone else. But you are convinced you won. Pretty clever huh?

D.

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#54425 - 05/14/11 10:19 AM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Diavolo]
Shea Offline
member


Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 108
Loc: Chicago
I've explained that politics are like sports for me, at least once or twice on here. Of course, I'm not heavily invested in it; but it's a stimulating game, and the more people who play, the more stimulating it is.

Some people have argued against the existence of free will entirely based upon your argument ta2zz; which I'm sure is like a sport to them.

Regardless, for anyone in general who thinks an exercise of their volition in any certain direction is useless: feel free not to act. If you think politics are a sham, but feel better for criticizing people who play politics as a game--by all means, play your own game.

Cynicism and apathy must be fun, because so many people love to play it; the elite included.

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#54431 - 05/14/11 11:47 AM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Shea]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Politics is fun, I myself enjoy each election period immensely, even when, as a voter, you don't really pick the cards but only help to shuffle them. Of course our electoral system is somewhat different and if the cards are shuffled badly, things become complicated, as evidenced in our almost year long political impasse.

But major changes seldom are caused by politics. Mostly politics is the art of maintaining the status quo and no matter what promises are made, in the end, only the trivialities change.

D.

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#54438 - 05/14/11 02:51 PM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Diavolo]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
I certainly am not deluding myself into thinking my opinions are going to make a difference, except perhaps to those that listen to them. The reason I said I wouldn't mind a dictatorship if it was non-intrusive and properly managed is because I can't really tell the difference between political systems. To me the differences are trivial, since no matter what system you use or endorse there is always only a handful of people that actually run the show. So when I talk about politics, I focus on how those people are doing and what potential entrants into these groups could do. Like Shea, politics is more like watching a sporting event for me, except I actually find politics interesting. I like watching the power struggle.

When a political system fails, it has far less to do with the particular system of government than it does with the actions of its leaders. Governments that fail usually are those that forget one important thing; the mob is Rome. If you don't want a revolt on your hands, you have to appease the people. If you can do that, you can get away with just about anything. All you have to do is not run it into the ground.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#54558 - 05/16/11 06:12 PM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: Diavolo]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
It isn't a big secret you point at ta2zz. In voting choice doesn't imply you can choose something as much as you can choose from something.

“Here is the list of all candidates and you may vote for the one you like.”

In the end you are deluded in believing you have some influence at the game while they defined the rules along which you are forced to play. In that, no matter what the outcome will be, it will always be within their expectations.

It's a lottery where when your ticket wins, the money goes to someone else. But you are convinced you won. Pretty clever huh?

D.

A secret not at all unless it is hidden in plain sight.

I see the deceit for what it is, a choice that is still nothing but a control.

I know at times I cannot fathom why I understood this in 4th grade while so many even here as adults still think their vote makes a change. They watch the debates like it were something other than a distraction to the cage we are in. Like winning a debate or having a better idea can sway the election.

There is no stirring the pot with our vote the electors elect the president in America point blank simple enough a 4th grader could understand it.

I have been here long enough to know if my opinion was incorrect it would be pointed out to me quickly. I tire of the so called elite here being as blind as any other. I tire of typical human stupidity.

Blind or wearing blinders cannot be Satanist as Satanist cannot be blind or self blinded. IMHO That's all.

Be aware!

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#54600 - 05/17/11 09:26 AM Re: Ron Paul 2012 Money Bomb [Re: ta2zz]
Shea Offline
member


Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 108
Loc: Chicago
In any given situation, a person can completely specify all of your possible options; in absolutely any situation. Whether it be posting on a forum about a subject that you claim to have incontrovertible wisdom about, or hauling your garbage out to the dumpster. The very nature of existence has presented you with a limited amount of options in any given situation, and you cannot step outside of those options.

Do you approach the rest of your life with the same world weary apathy that you do politics? Following your logic to its apex, it should certainly apply to any other situation in which your influence is minimal: say, if you were diagnosed with terminal cancer. In such a case, you and your doctor could minimally interfere with the cancer's progress but ultimately you would die. Surrendering, or lecturing your doctor about the futility of the situation, doesn't seem all too Satanic to me, honestly.

Life is by far more entertaining if you play it while adopting a little honest duplicity. Knowing that your influence in the political process is ultimately negligible, the game is much more fun to play if there are other people involved--it becomes not so much an exercise in electing Grand Poobah Manager of the United States, but an exercise in group dynamics and REAL politics (manipulating people).

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