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#54386 - 05/12/11 07:27 PM Torture
Meph9 Offline
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Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
There has been a significant on waterboarding and other "enhanced interrogation" technigues do you believe that waterboarding is torture?

Personally I think that any technique that when perofrmed correctly has no chanced of killing the victim torture. For all the victims of real torture in the world i find comparing waterboarding to torture is stupid.

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#54391 - 05/12/11 10:00 PM Re: Torture [Re: Meph9]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Then let me waterboard you.

DO you understand how it is done? How it makes you choke and feel like you are drowning? How if you don't understand what is going on you believe you are going to die. How it is possible to kill someone using it, if you choose to.

Now if done properly it should work, the problem is, the US government waterboarded certain people over 200 times. Anything done more than 12 can become routine, and people get used to it. How can it be effective if after 150 times they do it you, you know you aren't going to die.

Any act can be torture if used with that idea in mind. What is pleasure to some is pain to others. Don't doubt this simple fact for this is something I know quite well true.

Morgan
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#54393 - 05/12/11 10:16 PM Re: Torture [Re: Morgan]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Meph, I can torture you 24/7 with non-lethal measures and you would KNOW that you were being tortured, but in no real danger of dying. Read up on what John McCain endured in The Hanoi Hilton. After he recovered from his initial injuries and capture, the tied his neck to his knees and then hoisted him up with his arms behind hsi back for 12 hours at a stretch. Would it kill him? Probably not, but I guarantee you it was torture.

Simple torture methods... twisting the toes until they break. Won't kill you, but it IS torture.

Testicular torsion... clamping of the testicles... stapling the testicles to your chair... repeatedly slamming a hard implement into the testicles. Won't kill you. Hurts like hell and only a fool would think it wasn't torture.

Electrical shock to the genitals and/or nipples can cause the body to go into shock. Won't usually kill you unless there's an underlying cardiac problem.

Pulling out the finger and toenails... old standard. Not lethal, but painful as hell.

Needles into the scrotum, under the armpits and even in the eye can cause excruciating pain that won't normally kill. Yeah, that's torture.

We haven't even gone into the psychological tortures. Raping one's daughter or son in front of your victim.

Was one ingenious torture chief in Bosnia that killed the father of his victim, cooked up his liver and made the son eat it.

Gang rapes for the sake of instilling mind numbing fear.

Locking your detainee in a room full of rats.

Lots of things that won't kill you can be torture.

If you're REALLY so sure that waterboarding is a piece of cake, volunteer to demonstrate your conviction. There are a lot of people out there who'd enjoy seeing it.
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#54398 - 05/12/11 11:20 PM Re: Torture [Re: Meph9]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
...do you believe that waterboarding is torture?


Yes.

 Quote:
Personally I think that any technique that when perofrmed correctly has no chanced of killing the victim torture.


What? Any technique that, when performed correctly, has no chance of killing the victim, is torture - is that what you were trying to say? Or were you trying to say that said "technique" isn't torture?

At least make an effort to be coherent when you post. Trying to make sense of incomplete thoughts is torture. ;\)

 Quote:
For all the victims of real torture in the world i find comparing waterboarding to torture is stupid.


As others have said, if you think it isn't that bad then subject yourself to it. See if you still think it is stupid to compare water boarding to torture.

Now I have a question of my own:

Did you really just create a thread under the guise of posing a (frivolous) question just so you could voice your own idiotic opinion?

Or perhaps you wanted to get in a deeper discussion about torture. Because whether or not something like water boarding is torture has no real relevance (or point) without some sort of context.

Are we assigning a value-judgment to the act of torture? If so, is it negative or positive? Are we discussing the practicality or usefulness of torture?

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere on here before. If you did indeed want that deeper discussion I suggest you find that thread and post there. But only after you have composed a post that not only is articulated well enough to make sense of but one that has substance to it.

If you can't do that: LEAVE THE KEYBOARD ALONE.
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#54405 - 05/13/11 12:47 PM Re: Torture [Re: Meph9]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think we can correctly assume water-boarding is torture. Any serious interrogation is intended as a destabilization; it tries to push you beyond a certain point. Even the traditional "good cop / bad cop" routine is based upon this principle. The moment it does physical or psychological harm, it can correctly be called torture even when it doesn't necessarily kill the subject or leave visible scars.

In that respect, throwing you in a white room and playing the backstreet boys 24/7 at maximum volume will quickly become torturous. I might even prefer water-boarding above it.

The idea something is only torture when it involves slowly removing body parts is a bit outdated.

D.

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#54407 - 05/13/11 03:38 PM Re: Torture [Re: Diavolo]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
The main efficacy of torture lies in that it is non-lethal and can be carried on indefinitely.

The human organism is a fragile creature. You do not need iron maidens or bone-breaking racks to cause serious and often irreversible trauma to an individual.
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#54409 - 05/13/11 04:01 PM Re: Torture [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Of course, killing the victim isn't great when you desire information. Torture does work but only if the subject has the information you desire.

I worked cross Europe with a German for quite some time who had the privilege of a special Turkish interrogation when he got caught there counterfeiting dollars. Although it is impossible to truly understand what he went through, I learned electricity isn't spiffy when enforced on your body parts. He of course told them anything they wanted to know and if needed, he had confessed the murder on Lincoln and raping the Virgin Mary.

It is no surprise the Templars or witches of the past confessed to even the most ridiculous acts. The moment they start playing your body like a violin, you sing every song imaginable just to make them stop.

D.

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#54439 - 05/14/11 02:58 PM Re: Torture [Re: Diavolo]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
Well obviously waterboarding is unkind, it's unpleasant but I in know way believe that the technique does not violates any code of conduct or international law. Not that international law matters to begin with...

My point is that there seems to be a considerable amount of commentary, coming mostly from the left, which tries to further this narrative that individuals detained in places like Gitmo are getting some horrible inhuman treatment which I don't is even close to true. I would say using waterboarding is well within our right in terms of enemy combatants. Now of course what defines an enemy combatant is an entirely different issue...

The fact that the Eric Holder and the justice department are "investigating" as to whether to file any types of charges against American intelligence agents who employed the technique to be ludicrous. Why waste the time and resources going after our people for doing things that our enemies wouldn't hesitate to employ, and frankly is not even close to how bad we could be treating them. And so this idea that this interrogation tactic is somehow making groups like Al Qaeda hate us more is silly.

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#54440 - 05/14/11 03:03 PM Re: Torture [Re: Meph9]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
According international law:

 Quote:
For the purpose of this Declaration, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted by or at the instigation of a public official on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or confession, punishing him for an act he has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating him or other persons. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions to the extent consistent with the Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners.


You said?

D.

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#54442 - 05/14/11 03:43 PM Re: Torture [Re: Diavolo]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Btw, I'm terribly amused by you calling it unpleasant. You know what is unpleasant? Pissing against the wind, paying a fine or rain on a picnic. I'm quite sure unpleasant isn't the first impression anyone being water-boarded gets.

You might want to inform yourself first before sharing opinions like these. It's unpleasant.

D.

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#54446 - 05/14/11 06:23 PM Re: Torture [Re: Diavolo]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Nashville
I think most reasonable people would call waterboarding torture. But even if one disagrees with that label, he would at least conclude that many would call waterboarding torture. That said, perhaps the question should not be: Is waterboarding torture? But rather: Should the U.S. and other countries that purport to be “ethical” and “civilized” (the “good guys”) engage in activities deemed by many to be torture?

The arguments against torture often go something like this:

• People will say anything to stop the pain, regardless if the information is accurate. Such information can lead the interrogators on wild goose chases that are counterproductive. Other tactics have proven more useful.
• If the U.S. engages in activities many would consider torture, countries detaining U.S. troops would have a rational argument for using similar tactics on them.
• Torturing in the U.S. is hypocritical and undermines the very principles it claims to uphold. Is this what the rest of the world should aspire to?

There are, of course, other arguments that I have missed. And of course, there are plenty of arguments for the other side. Please feel free to share.
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#54447 - 05/14/11 07:35 PM Re: Torture [Re: William Wright]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The question is; how far are we willing to go to protect ourselves? Principles are nice and dandy but if not everyone upholds them, a problem arises. You can be as good and ethical as you like, if you don't treat your enemies as they treat you, you'll not stand a chance.

The movie "Unthinkable" is about this and it is well worth watching.

D.

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#54448 - 05/14/11 08:30 PM Re: Torture [Re: Diavolo]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
"The question is; how far are we willing to go to protect ourselves? Principles are nice and dandy but if not everyone upholds them, a problem arises. You can be as good and ethical as you like, if you don't treat your enemies as they treat you, you'll not stand a chance."

This is the idea I've been trying to communicate from the begining.

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#54452 - 05/14/11 11:39 PM Re: Torture [Re: Meph9]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Nashville
I agree that one should leave all options on the table when dealing with an enemy. This includes torture. However, when America denounces the use of torture in other countries as barbaric but then uses similar methods, it makes us look hypocritical. Furthermore, our enemies use information about us torturing as a propaganda tool. How many young men were inspired to join Al Qaeda after the pictures of Abu Ghraib surfaced? I’m just not sure torture is the smart choice.
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In Minecraft all chickens are spies.

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#54454 - 05/15/11 02:05 AM Re: Torture [Re: William Wright]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"waterboarding is unkind, it's unpleasant...."

LOLOLOLOL, wow, unfucking real.
So, my offer still stands, if you honestly think waterboarding is just unpleasant, let me waterboard you....

"places like Gitmo are getting some horrible inhuman treatment which I don't is even close to true."

How do you know? Have you been there?

I think they should be investigated for being stupid, and bitter. There is no reason to waterboard a suspect over 200 times. This was done on a few suspects. If you don't get any information after 3 times, you should switch to a different method.

William and Diavolo are right. If you are going to denounce other countries for torturing their people, then this country sure as shit shouldn't do it either.

Plus, if you are going to torture the fuckers for fun, just kill them. Its less paper work and less of a mess to deal with in the long run.

M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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