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#54465 - 05/15/11 08:19 AM Re: Torture [Re: Morgan]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 855
Loc: Nashville
Morgan – Is waterboarding torture?
Meph9 – No.
Morgan pours.
Morgan – Again, is waterboarding torture?
Meph9 pants and coughs.
Meph9 – I said no.
Morgan pours again.
Morgan – I’ve got all day.
More panting and coughing.
Meph9 – Yes.
Morgan – Yes what?
Meph9 – Waterboarding is torture, god dammit!
Morgan smiles.
Morgan – That wasn’t so hard now, was it?
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#54473 - 05/15/11 11:04 AM Re: Torture [Re: William Wright]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
This has been quite entertaining to watch. The obvious first, waterboarding is torture. Now whether the US government should use torture is a trickier question. As Will pointed out, there are good reasons against it. It is not really a question of ethics, but of how effective it really is, and what political effects endorsing torture as a legitimate tactic there may be. Of course, a solution would be to denounce it publicly and then use it secretly. Unfortunately, that can cause greater problems if the use of torture is then discovered. I personally have no problem with its use, especially if it produces results. There is, however, more to take into consideration than that.

Edited by Lucifer Rising (05/15/11 11:06 AM)
Edit Reason: Minor fixes
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Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#54557 - 05/16/11 05:46 PM Re: Torture [Re: Lucifer Rising]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Im all for simply filming them reading something denouncing their government or religion or both and simply cutting off their heads. There is nothing more straight to the point. Something about how the scream first turns to gurgle before it is silenced as the knife cuts through their windpipe.

All while screaming Fuck Yeah! Then I would just feed them to the pigs. Maybe send their families a nice pork roast for Christmas...

But that's just me.

They cut off our heads and some of us think water boarding, humiliation or torture is out of the question. Fucking bleeding heart types piss me off.

~T~
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We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#54585 - 05/17/11 01:03 AM Re: Torture [Re: Morgan]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
"I think they should be investigated for being stupid, and bitter. There is no reason to waterboard a suspect over 200 times. This was done on a few suspects. If you don't get any information after 3 times, you should switch to a different method."



Do you really think this deserves an investigation of own people for following orders.

Next I can think of over 3000 reasons for suspects to be waterboarded at Gitmo or else where. Fact of the matter is the nation does not have the funds to allow Eric Holder's justice department. Having said that these "investigations" are likely a political ploy for the 2012 election, frankly I don't think Obama has genuine concern for this issue.

"William and Diavolo are right. If you are going to denounce other countries for torturing their people, then this country sure as shit shouldn't do it either." As logical as that is you forget the fact that every other nation of the world does the same thing, why should be care about "international law" when no else does. Not to mention the fact that for all the money we give in "aid" to the rest of the world we need approval from the U.N. and its nonbinding resolutions.

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#54595 - 05/17/11 07:46 AM Re: Torture [Re: Meph9]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Someone needs to be investigated for being so FUCKING STUPID.
Then their dumb ass needs to be fired.

If a suspect doesn't give up shit after 3 times being waterboarded, do you really think he is going to give up shit after 200 times? Hell, at that point, he probably was bringing his toothpaste and mouthwash.

The human body can get used to anything. It can turn pain into pleasure. I've hammered nails into people, this is something I know, believe me.

So, have you admitted that waterboarding is torture yet?

It's not a matter of use, it's a matter of how it is used. Can you understand the difference?

It won't be used as a political ploy now especially since Obama claims the Bin Laden kill. If the Republicans go after this, they then appear soft on terrorists.

"why should be care about "international law" when no else does."

Because we are The United States of America, policeman of the world. We put ourselves in this position, and if we are going to play the good guys, then we need to act or at least appear as the good guys.

"Not to mention the fact that for all the money we give in "aid" to the rest of the world we need approval from the U.N. and its nonbinding resolutions."

Honestly, no one cares about the UN. Its mainly used by countries with lesser power who team up/gang up to get their way.
That's why the UN ended up with known dictators on their board of human rights in the past. It's also why Russia will never again walk out of a UN meeting no matter how pissed they are. The only thing I can think of that is annoying with the UN is all the unpaid parking tickets they owe the city of New York, and how diplomats get immunity from any crimes they commit here, even murder.


Morgan


Edited by Morgan (05/17/11 08:46 AM)
Edit Reason: fix spelling
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#54597 - 05/17/11 08:01 AM Re: Torture [Re: ta2zz]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I always saw a sanitised and neat death as best, simple and non embellished. What's wrong with a simple bullet to the head and then carrying on with more important things?

I don't know what it is, whether it be personal or impersonal, humans wasting my time enrage me. I'd consider a person suffering in my presence, rude,
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#54608 - 05/17/11 11:52 AM Re: Torture [Re: Morgan]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
It's not a matter of use, it's a matter of how it is used.
 Quote:
(I)f we are going to play the good guys, then we need to act or at least appear as the good guys.

While the matter of how it is used is important, does this second statement not bring into question the matter of use? We have to decide if the "good guys" can use torture. If so, how far should they be able to go with it? What forms of torture are the "good guys" able to use?

It might not make sense to water board somebody 300 times, but it also doesn't make sense to worry about how to use torture when you haven't addressed whether you should in the first place. The gut reaction of (nearly) everyone here, including myself, is that torture is an acceptable tactic. However, not everyone here is doing any thinking beyond that.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
It won't be used as a political ploy now especially since Obama claims the Bin Laden kill. If the Republicans go after this, they then appear soft on terrorists.

I'm guessing this was somewhat directed toward me since I brought up political consequences. I was actually referring to international relations more than domestic politics. The confusion was my fault; I didn't make that clear.
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Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#54615 - 05/17/11 01:44 PM Re: Torture [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The problem with torture is that you have to be pretty sure you got the right one. If someone planted a bomb somewhere and refuses to tell, the information can be “extracted” but if you have to arrest people who might know someone who is going to do something somewhen somewhere, torture will be an exercise in futility.

I read a story today about a former Gitmo this country took in. The Syrian kid got into trouble with dad, ran and ended up in Afghanistan at an al-Qaeda training camp. It's not that he wanted to be there but due to some circumstances, he just got real lucky. There they accused him of being a Zionist spy and he got the good treatment. He got locked up, tortured, had to witness on cam he was spy for Israel and got again locked up for two years. Then the USA entered, the Taliban ran and he was “freed”. The videotape of him got in the hands of the USA and he ended on the terrorist top-wanted list. None did bother about translating what he actually said on that tape and to Gitmo he went. He got treated like a dog, excuse me, dogs get treated better, for seven years until his case went to court and they finally discovered the poor sod had nothing to do with it all. Oops and sorry, yer free to go if anyone wants you.

This is the chap: Abd Al Rahim Abdul Rassak Janko

And that's the problem with torture; you might be having a ball on someone that is completely innocent. I know, life sucks at times but it sure sucks hard for some.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (05/17/11 02:24 PM)

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#54707 - 05/19/11 02:46 PM Re: Torture [Re: Diavolo]
Ringmaster Offline
member


Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
Do I think that torture can be effective? Sometimes, as already pointed out earlier in this thread it depends on susceptibility of the individual being tortured. The argument of morality and political correctness will always come into question once someone sheds light on the activities being performed to extract information.

I personally think that if a person doesn’t want to divulge information and after interviews without torture methods reveal through mentality and behavioral mannerisms that he/she may be susceptible to such methods go for it and let them have it. Yes the “they will say anything to make it stop” argument may come up, however when something is said and cross referenced with current intelligence it should be pretty easy to determine whether or not the information is entirely accurate. If it turns out inaccurate rinse and repeat (so to speak). As far as becoming used to the torture goes, change it up every man/woman has a weak spot the hard part is exploiting that weakness.

When morality comes into play, the people committing the acts of torture (I’m willing to guess) don’t find it morally wrong being it’s their damn job. Those that do find it morally wrong could refuse and then someone who doesn’t object to such methods which inevitably will have the same outcome. We must remember that the individual defines their own morality (atleast those capable of thinking for themselves anyway).

Next we come to the “who should have that authority”. While this is a tricky question to answer I find that while there will always be corrupt politicians who only think of advancing their careers (same with some military members) I think that it should be a collective decision between interrogators, shrinks, and commanding officers.

What’s the stopping point? The stopping point is when shit adds up. It’s that plain and simple in my eyes.

Yes there have been cases where innocent people have been captured and tortured by our government, you need to stop and accept the fact that in war you have something called collateral damage. Always have and always will. I look at it like this; these people are suspects and may or may not know something that would serve the interests of national security. Am I willing to risk collateral damage in order to protect the interests of my country? Yes I am. Some may ask; “what if it happens to you?” Well what if aliens abduct me? Next question.
I was once asked in this very same topic of discussion with a family member against torture who asked me if I would like it if it was done to me. I told her that we can’t just assume that an American POW would ever be treated fairly. I then mentioned videos of Al Qaida decapitating people and threats of that being done on American captives is ever captured.

Well I figured having a military background I should throw my two cents in on this one. I’ve probably bored you guys enough.

To Meph: Of course it’s fucking unpleasant. I’m glad you are capable of using deductive reasoning to come up with such a simple assumption; now do you want a cookie? Also, start naming all 3,000 of those reasons no more no less. *Rolls eyes and sighs* this should be entertaining.


CHEERS,
RING


Edited by Ringmaster (05/19/11 03:22 PM)
Edit Reason: Side note to Meph
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Get off the cross and save yourself, I feel no pity for the cries of a weak man.

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#55985 - 06/17/11 10:16 PM Re: Torture [Re: Ringmaster]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: Ringmaster
What’s the stopping point? The stopping point is when shit adds up. It’s that plain and simple in my eyes.


Every invasion 'on the front' is an answer to the definite condition of the conscious, and this answer follows from the possibilities that are present. That is to say, from the disposition which is an image in potentia of worldly existence. The splitting-up into the single, one-sided and fragmentary character (e.g. punishment) suits the Mind. The action always has the character of completeness.

Hence, (punishment) has an overpowering effect. It is the comprehensive, completely Evil answer that operates Satanism, but the Mind has wedged itself in a hopeless, blind-spot; if it always continues unabated.

To become aware of exactly that is one of the many facets of the Self.

Typhon-Mephistopheles


Edited by paolo sette (06/17/11 10:24 PM)
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#55990 - 06/18/11 03:24 AM Re: Torture [Re: paolo sette]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
The following words may be considered for a stand up deadpan black comedy routine and nothing more.

Utmost professionalism would be paramount in administering a scientifically sound extraction method. And so extraction process under such conditions must be no different to conducting an experiment under a hypothesises. A clinical procedure as would a doctor would perform surgery to extract a foreign body from said patient. A body of evidence.

With regards to the problem of sadism. We can observe different emergences of what is sadism, the predominantly somatic, impulsive sadism, the heated kind, and then there is the cold kind, the cerebral sadism, the sophisticated, calm and calculated. The distinction comes about from the observation that one type is polarised as being uncontrolled indulgence and the other being polarised as methodical connoisseurship. Obviously there is a flux and shift about the gradients.

I'd present the notion that clinical sadism is going to produce the awareness of irreversibility about the proceedings, the the subject is futile to persuade himself otherwise under rational professionalism and authority which does not display any indications about desire for punishment or revenge, but instead, to clearly explain how it is absolutely necessary to "alter" and "manipulate" the subjects body as a strict science in sensitive communications towards extracting important information. Only the care of a trained professional will do. If the experiment is a failure then it was not the scientists (torturers) error in his conduct of said exercise, but a of a hypothesis directed at said failed subject by which the required body of evidence extracted was less than residual evidence being indicative that withheld is the entire body of evidence against all rationality. A residual quantity of evidence would indicate that a repeat administering of torture would be necessary after an interlude of medication, rest and resuscitation were allotted to the subject.

The sound scientific process regarding the extraction of crucial information pertaining to matters of national security remains valid: There is not an "absolute" certainty about chosen subject bodies withholding a body of evidence, hence, the decision to proceed with further carefully selecting subjects is only rational process toward resolving matters of national security which far outweigh any arbitrary issues of morality in terms of importance and severity.

A matter only resolvable by not mixing business with pleasure.

We are proud to have created the largest graveyard in the solar system and we have the audacity to walk about smiling, we are a horror planet.


Edited by Hegesias (06/18/11 03:45 AM)
Edit Reason: *cricket sounds*
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#56004 - 06/18/11 01:51 PM Re: Torture [Re: Meph9]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2435
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
Anything that intentionally damages the body and/or causes pain is torture. Waterboarding is no different than jamming a needle under someone's thumbnail and giving it twists and taps (a Vietnamese favorite).

Torture is inappropriate because (a) it is unethical and (b) it is non-productive. If you are an honorable, decent person, you don't mistreat helpless otherbeings under your control. And pain/fear just makes the victim do or say whatever he thinks will prevent or stop it, which of course is useless/unreliable/distracting.

I am both a PSYOP and an Intelligence officer, and in my career participated in many interrogations. I retired from active service in 1994, and at least prior to that time, torture was absolutely forbidden in the Defense Department. Indeed it was a court-martial offense.

You get information out of a captive either by convincing him that there is a good reason to give it to you (saving lives, exchanging benefits, etc.) or by tricking him (taking the interrogation in other directions so that he inadvertently reveals what you're actually interested in).

But what I really want to sensitize you to here is that individual human interrogation is not by any means the "whole enchilada" in competent intelligence, and especially PSYOP intelligence. It is just one of a number of resources and procedures which a competent Intel officer will use in a given assignment. Thus more often than not you are looking not for "Hollywood movie stunning surprises" from interrogations, but rather additional pieces of the puzzle: confirmations, impressions, experiences, opinions, feedback. Here's some good bedtime reading from U.S. Army PSYOP doctrine.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#56021 - 06/18/11 05:27 PM Re: Torture [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
That PDF. is interesting; something I ought to have looked into a long time ago. From this information I will synthesise a more efficient methodology about which to go about my Satanism.

Nietzsche and Hegel aren't’ usually thought to go together, but I sythesised Bruce Lee's philosophy with Nietzschean concepts and Satanism effectively so why not try synthesising something else with Order of Nine Angles philosophy and my innate predisposition towards active nihilist thought and behaviours. By my contextual usage of what is dialectical active-nihilism it is a kind of apolitical reduction process toward devaluation of civilisations imposed information, by means of heretical or entropic memetics and re-establishing instinctual and natural values— logical counterpropaganda against the closed system of Judeo-Christian society and memeplexs. To use those images against the meme that was once part of the individuals conditioning. To uncover what society has covered through information imposed as actual reality, and artifice of academia such as arbitrary morality cloaked in a white laboratory coat. An attempt to re-establish the relationship between human being and nature; primal consciousness, out of which it's lawlessness, order emerge. This I feel, is intrinsic toward transgressive evolution and revaluations of antinomian values emerging perfectly natural human functioning.

My previous post was an example of a dialectical design for a juxtaposed argument to appear to counter excessive dissimulation and misconceptions raised in my post, about torture and what not.

I am not a professional yet my satirical attempt at psychopathic justification of violence wasn't without merit, I often write things by design of willing positive juxtapositions to appear from various angles from others. I'm glad to see the empirical realisation emerge thanks to your presentation blanketing the topic.
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#93991 - 10/29/14 12:33 PM Re: Torture [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6564
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
I am both a PSYOP and an Intelligence officer, and in my career participated in many interrogations. I retired from active service in 1994, and at least prior to that time, torture was absolutely forbidden in the Defense Department. Indeed it was a court-martial offense.


Post 9/11, the Patriot Act and Homeland Security - it's a different game. Torture is not only practiced, it's normalized when dealing with 'terrorists'. This has been a main talking point for Justified Torture of American hostages. It's reciprocation for tortures carried out on detainees to extract information.
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SINJONES.com

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#93994 - 10/29/14 01:31 PM Re: Torture [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1111
Loc: San Diego, CA
Honestly, I have no concern or moral objection to the torture of anyone for whatever reason.

Anyway, no government agency is needed.

Enter Blackwater. If you subcontract that responsibility to a private enterprise you remove any and all need to ever respond to FOIA requests. Moving on...


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