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#93996 - 10/29/14 01:55 PM Re: Torture [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
Is there such a thing as excessive torture? Isn't torture just torture?

Waterboarding used 266 times

 Quote:
C.I.A. interrogators used waterboarding, the near-drowning technique that top Obama administration officials have described as illegal torture, 266 times on two key prisoners from Al Qaeda, far more than had been previously reported.


The C.I.A. officers used waterboarding at least 83 times in August 2002 against Abu Zubaydah, according to a 2005 Justice Department legal memorandum. Abu Zubaydah has been described as a Qaeda operative.


Don't Execute Those We Torture

The Obama Administration isn't at all concerned with punishing this so-called illegal torture, it's all okay so long as it involves Terrorism.

Rmember this from 2008?

Most of the recent reports cover the alleged "Master-mind" of 9/11 'attacks', all this language is key when covering it in relation to the ISIS/ISIL kidnapping of Americans for torture and beheadings.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged September 11 mastermind was one of the terror suspects the CIA waterboarded

Back in 09' it was mostly semantics arguments, how torture was being defined and carried out by CIA and military on detainees.



Yep, that's unpleasant.
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#94005 - 10/30/14 08:02 AM Re: Torture [Re: SIN3]
Megatron Offline
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Alison, have you seen the movie Prisoners, starring Hugh Jackman and Jake Gyllenhaal? It contains a subplot on torture and the ultimate effectiveness/humanity of it as a means to gain information. I thought it was done extremely well. Especially when contrasted with Gyllenhaal's opposite approach.

This movie is also good for its references to occultism throughout (all in easter egg format).
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#94009 - 10/30/14 10:08 AM Re: Torture [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
I haven't but I'll check it out. I have however seen countless films that include some sort of torture to extract information. It's become somewhat normalized and I'd imagine that many Americans have become desensitized to it because of its portrayal in films and other media. In news reports it provides justifications for it but I doubt many of these same people that cheer it on would be able to carry it out if put to the task.

As young as I can remember I've been watching and have participated in violence. It may account for why nothing really shocks me about human behavior. It may also account for my amorality.

When the Hostel films came out, I noticed a trend of people trying to find out if there was any factual basis. There is. There's plenty of cases where humans were hunted down, sold and tortured for amusement. Why would that be shocking? If we can imagine it, we've done it.
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#94012 - 10/30/14 11:41 AM Re: Torture [Re: SIN3]
theharkonnen Offline
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Registered: 12/03/13
Posts: 218
There was a study in the mid-1900s (Forget when and the name of it) to scientifically test when an individual would commit genocide (Although, it could be used for torture as well).

Basically, they took a "patient" into a room with a would-be torturer - the torturer would be the actual subject of the experiment, whereas the patient was part of the experiment. The torturer was told that they were helping with an experiment on electricity or some such thing. As part of the test, the victim would inform the torturer when the pain was too great and wanted out. Most people in the torturer role looked at the person in charge for advice. In all cases, as part of the experiment, the person in charge would say go on.

The results were that most people continued the experiment regardless of the pain on part of the patient, with females being much more willing to go on then males (About 2/3 greater chance). They also found that so long as responsibility (The person in charge would take responsibility if asked) was delegated to someone else, they would be more willing to go on. Hence, why many Germans went along with everything in concentration camps.

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#94013 - 10/30/14 11:52 AM Re: Torture [Re: theharkonnen]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
Are you talking about the Milgram Experiment?

It's also received its fair share of criticism.

It wasn't about genocide, it was about obedience to authority.
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#94027 - 10/30/14 03:47 PM Re: Torture [Re: SIN3]
theharkonnen Offline
member


Registered: 12/03/13
Posts: 218
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Are you talking about the Milgram Experiment?

It's also received its fair share of criticism.

It wasn't about genocide, it was about obedience to authority.



Yeah, thanks. I learned about it several years back and could barely remember the details.

It was created to see how obedience led to the Holocaust.


Edited by theharkonnen (10/30/14 03:49 PM)

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#94029 - 10/30/14 04:40 PM Re: Torture [Re: SIN3]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1348
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Is there such a thing as excessive torture? Isn't torture just torture?

Two reasons that torture can be "excessive" were expounded earlier:
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The problem with torture is that you have to be pretty sure you got the right one.
Often if you torture someone too much, he'll start telling you whatever you want to hear (even if it's total bull) just to get you to stop, and may lead you on a wild goose chase or give you a false sense of security. That's why I liked Der weisse Engel; he got to a point where he quit and said, "He knew nothing. If he'd known, he would have told. Get rid of him!" Now that's a fucking professional.

The other reason:
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Anything done more than 12 can become routine, and people get used to it. How can it be effective if after 150 times they do it you, you know you aren't going to die.
E.g., the effect wears off.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
In news reports it provides justifications for it but I doubt many of these same people that cheer it on would be able to carry it out if put to the task.
Many people can't do a lot of things from which they nonetheless benefit. I wouldn't hold that against them. I draw the line on annoying psychological disconnect when someone downplays or denies the extent of what's done on their behalf (see OP), or when the ingrate enjoys the fruits of what's done on his behalf but condemns the one who made it possible.
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#94033 - 10/30/14 05:50 PM Re: Torture [Re: XiaoGui17]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
I read the entire thread prior to posting.

I don't see it as 'excessive'. The previous posters were speaking to effectiveness of torture.

Take for instance torture carried out by the U.S. government - who the hell trusts the government to report truthful and accurate information? De-classified intelligence is even embellished and released for the public benefit. In other words, to back up the narrative.

The treatment of detainees in Abu Grahib wasn't really intended for mass distribution. That was sort of an Oops! situation.

It would send a mixed message to the American public, it's okay to force Freedom & Democracy on other nations for mistreating their people, but it's AOK for the U.S. to do it, in the name of getting crucial information from dangerous terrorists!
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