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#54386 - 05/12/11 07:27 PM Torture
Meph9 Offline
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Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
There has been a significant on waterboarding and other "enhanced interrogation" technigues do you believe that waterboarding is torture?

Personally I think that any technique that when perofrmed correctly has no chanced of killing the victim torture. For all the victims of real torture in the world i find comparing waterboarding to torture is stupid.

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#54391 - 05/12/11 10:00 PM Re: Torture [Re: Meph9]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Then let me waterboard you.

DO you understand how it is done? How it makes you choke and feel like you are drowning? How if you don't understand what is going on you believe you are going to die. How it is possible to kill someone using it, if you choose to.

Now if done properly it should work, the problem is, the US government waterboarded certain people over 200 times. Anything done more than 12 can become routine, and people get used to it. How can it be effective if after 150 times they do it you, you know you aren't going to die.

Any act can be torture if used with that idea in mind. What is pleasure to some is pain to others. Don't doubt this simple fact for this is something I know quite well true.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#54393 - 05/12/11 10:16 PM Re: Torture [Re: Morgan]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Meph, I can torture you 24/7 with non-lethal measures and you would KNOW that you were being tortured, but in no real danger of dying. Read up on what John McCain endured in The Hanoi Hilton. After he recovered from his initial injuries and capture, the tied his neck to his knees and then hoisted him up with his arms behind hsi back for 12 hours at a stretch. Would it kill him? Probably not, but I guarantee you it was torture.

Simple torture methods... twisting the toes until they break. Won't kill you, but it IS torture.

Testicular torsion... clamping of the testicles... stapling the testicles to your chair... repeatedly slamming a hard implement into the testicles. Won't kill you. Hurts like hell and only a fool would think it wasn't torture.

Electrical shock to the genitals and/or nipples can cause the body to go into shock. Won't usually kill you unless there's an underlying cardiac problem.

Pulling out the finger and toenails... old standard. Not lethal, but painful as hell.

Needles into the scrotum, under the armpits and even in the eye can cause excruciating pain that won't normally kill. Yeah, that's torture.

We haven't even gone into the psychological tortures. Raping one's daughter or son in front of your victim.

Was one ingenious torture chief in Bosnia that killed the father of his victim, cooked up his liver and made the son eat it.

Gang rapes for the sake of instilling mind numbing fear.

Locking your detainee in a room full of rats.

Lots of things that won't kill you can be torture.

If you're REALLY so sure that waterboarding is a piece of cake, volunteer to demonstrate your conviction. There are a lot of people out there who'd enjoy seeing it.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#54398 - 05/12/11 11:20 PM Re: Torture [Re: Meph9]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
...do you believe that waterboarding is torture?


Yes.

 Quote:
Personally I think that any technique that when perofrmed correctly has no chanced of killing the victim torture.


What? Any technique that, when performed correctly, has no chance of killing the victim, is torture - is that what you were trying to say? Or were you trying to say that said "technique" isn't torture?

At least make an effort to be coherent when you post. Trying to make sense of incomplete thoughts is torture. ;\)

 Quote:
For all the victims of real torture in the world i find comparing waterboarding to torture is stupid.


As others have said, if you think it isn't that bad then subject yourself to it. See if you still think it is stupid to compare water boarding to torture.

Now I have a question of my own:

Did you really just create a thread under the guise of posing a (frivolous) question just so you could voice your own idiotic opinion?

Or perhaps you wanted to get in a deeper discussion about torture. Because whether or not something like water boarding is torture has no real relevance (or point) without some sort of context.

Are we assigning a value-judgment to the act of torture? If so, is it negative or positive? Are we discussing the practicality or usefulness of torture?

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere on here before. If you did indeed want that deeper discussion I suggest you find that thread and post there. But only after you have composed a post that not only is articulated well enough to make sense of but one that has substance to it.

If you can't do that: LEAVE THE KEYBOARD ALONE.
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#54405 - 05/13/11 12:47 PM Re: Torture [Re: Meph9]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think we can correctly assume water-boarding is torture. Any serious interrogation is intended as a destabilization; it tries to push you beyond a certain point. Even the traditional "good cop / bad cop" routine is based upon this principle. The moment it does physical or psychological harm, it can correctly be called torture even when it doesn't necessarily kill the subject or leave visible scars.

In that respect, throwing you in a white room and playing the backstreet boys 24/7 at maximum volume will quickly become torturous. I might even prefer water-boarding above it.

The idea something is only torture when it involves slowly removing body parts is a bit outdated.

D.

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#54407 - 05/13/11 03:38 PM Re: Torture [Re: Diavolo]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
The main efficacy of torture lies in that it is non-lethal and can be carried on indefinitely.

The human organism is a fragile creature. You do not need iron maidens or bone-breaking racks to cause serious and often irreversible trauma to an individual.
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#54409 - 05/13/11 04:01 PM Re: Torture [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Of course, killing the victim isn't great when you desire information. Torture does work but only if the subject has the information you desire.

I worked cross Europe with a German for quite some time who had the privilege of a special Turkish interrogation when he got caught there counterfeiting dollars. Although it is impossible to truly understand what he went through, I learned electricity isn't spiffy when enforced on your body parts. He of course told them anything they wanted to know and if needed, he had confessed the murder on Lincoln and raping the Virgin Mary.

It is no surprise the Templars or witches of the past confessed to even the most ridiculous acts. The moment they start playing your body like a violin, you sing every song imaginable just to make them stop.

D.

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#54439 - 05/14/11 02:58 PM Re: Torture [Re: Diavolo]
Meph9 Offline
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Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
Well obviously waterboarding is unkind, it's unpleasant but I in know way believe that the technique does not violates any code of conduct or international law. Not that international law matters to begin with...

My point is that there seems to be a considerable amount of commentary, coming mostly from the left, which tries to further this narrative that individuals detained in places like Gitmo are getting some horrible inhuman treatment which I don't is even close to true. I would say using waterboarding is well within our right in terms of enemy combatants. Now of course what defines an enemy combatant is an entirely different issue...

The fact that the Eric Holder and the justice department are "investigating" as to whether to file any types of charges against American intelligence agents who employed the technique to be ludicrous. Why waste the time and resources going after our people for doing things that our enemies wouldn't hesitate to employ, and frankly is not even close to how bad we could be treating them. And so this idea that this interrogation tactic is somehow making groups like Al Qaeda hate us more is silly.

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#54440 - 05/14/11 03:03 PM Re: Torture [Re: Meph9]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
According international law:

 Quote:
For the purpose of this Declaration, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted by or at the instigation of a public official on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or confession, punishing him for an act he has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating him or other persons. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions to the extent consistent with the Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners.


You said?

D.

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#54442 - 05/14/11 03:43 PM Re: Torture [Re: Diavolo]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Btw, I'm terribly amused by you calling it unpleasant. You know what is unpleasant? Pissing against the wind, paying a fine or rain on a picnic. I'm quite sure unpleasant isn't the first impression anyone being water-boarded gets.

You might want to inform yourself first before sharing opinions like these. It's unpleasant.

D.

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#54446 - 05/14/11 06:23 PM Re: Torture [Re: Diavolo]
William Wright Offline
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Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 860
Loc: Nashville
I think most reasonable people would call waterboarding torture. But even if one disagrees with that label, he would at least conclude that many would call waterboarding torture. That said, perhaps the question should not be: Is waterboarding torture? But rather: Should the U.S. and other countries that purport to be “ethical” and “civilized” (the “good guys”) engage in activities deemed by many to be torture?

The arguments against torture often go something like this:

• People will say anything to stop the pain, regardless if the information is accurate. Such information can lead the interrogators on wild goose chases that are counterproductive. Other tactics have proven more useful.
• If the U.S. engages in activities many would consider torture, countries detaining U.S. troops would have a rational argument for using similar tactics on them.
• Torturing in the U.S. is hypocritical and undermines the very principles it claims to uphold. Is this what the rest of the world should aspire to?

There are, of course, other arguments that I have missed. And of course, there are plenty of arguments for the other side. Please feel free to share.
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#54447 - 05/14/11 07:35 PM Re: Torture [Re: William Wright]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The question is; how far are we willing to go to protect ourselves? Principles are nice and dandy but if not everyone upholds them, a problem arises. You can be as good and ethical as you like, if you don't treat your enemies as they treat you, you'll not stand a chance.

The movie "Unthinkable" is about this and it is well worth watching.

D.

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#54448 - 05/14/11 08:30 PM Re: Torture [Re: Diavolo]
Meph9 Offline
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Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
"The question is; how far are we willing to go to protect ourselves? Principles are nice and dandy but if not everyone upholds them, a problem arises. You can be as good and ethical as you like, if you don't treat your enemies as they treat you, you'll not stand a chance."

This is the idea I've been trying to communicate from the begining.

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#54452 - 05/14/11 11:39 PM Re: Torture [Re: Meph9]
William Wright Offline
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Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 860
Loc: Nashville
I agree that one should leave all options on the table when dealing with an enemy. This includes torture. However, when America denounces the use of torture in other countries as barbaric but then uses similar methods, it makes us look hypocritical. Furthermore, our enemies use information about us torturing as a propaganda tool. How many young men were inspired to join Al Qaeda after the pictures of Abu Ghraib surfaced? I’m just not sure torture is the smart choice.
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#54454 - 05/15/11 02:05 AM Re: Torture [Re: William Wright]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"waterboarding is unkind, it's unpleasant...."

LOLOLOLOL, wow, unfucking real.
So, my offer still stands, if you honestly think waterboarding is just unpleasant, let me waterboard you....

"places like Gitmo are getting some horrible inhuman treatment which I don't is even close to true."

How do you know? Have you been there?

I think they should be investigated for being stupid, and bitter. There is no reason to waterboard a suspect over 200 times. This was done on a few suspects. If you don't get any information after 3 times, you should switch to a different method.

William and Diavolo are right. If you are going to denounce other countries for torturing their people, then this country sure as shit shouldn't do it either.

Plus, if you are going to torture the fuckers for fun, just kill them. Its less paper work and less of a mess to deal with in the long run.

M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#54465 - 05/15/11 08:19 AM Re: Torture [Re: Morgan]
William Wright Offline
active member


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 860
Loc: Nashville
Morgan – Is waterboarding torture?
Meph9 – No.
Morgan pours.
Morgan – Again, is waterboarding torture?
Meph9 pants and coughs.
Meph9 – I said no.
Morgan pours again.
Morgan – I’ve got all day.
More panting and coughing.
Meph9 – Yes.
Morgan – Yes what?
Meph9 – Waterboarding is torture, god dammit!
Morgan smiles.
Morgan – That wasn’t so hard now, was it?
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#54473 - 05/15/11 11:04 AM Re: Torture [Re: William Wright]
Lucifer Rising Offline
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Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
This has been quite entertaining to watch. The obvious first, waterboarding is torture. Now whether the US government should use torture is a trickier question. As Will pointed out, there are good reasons against it. It is not really a question of ethics, but of how effective it really is, and what political effects endorsing torture as a legitimate tactic there may be. Of course, a solution would be to denounce it publicly and then use it secretly. Unfortunately, that can cause greater problems if the use of torture is then discovered. I personally have no problem with its use, especially if it produces results. There is, however, more to take into consideration than that.

Edited by Lucifer Rising (05/15/11 11:06 AM)
Edit Reason: Minor fixes
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Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#54557 - 05/16/11 05:46 PM Re: Torture [Re: Lucifer Rising]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Im all for simply filming them reading something denouncing their government or religion or both and simply cutting off their heads. There is nothing more straight to the point. Something about how the scream first turns to gurgle before it is silenced as the knife cuts through their windpipe.

All while screaming Fuck Yeah! Then I would just feed them to the pigs. Maybe send their families a nice pork roast for Christmas...

But that's just me.

They cut off our heads and some of us think water boarding, humiliation or torture is out of the question. Fucking bleeding heart types piss me off.

~T~
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#54585 - 05/17/11 01:03 AM Re: Torture [Re: Morgan]
Meph9 Offline
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Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
"I think they should be investigated for being stupid, and bitter. There is no reason to waterboard a suspect over 200 times. This was done on a few suspects. If you don't get any information after 3 times, you should switch to a different method."



Do you really think this deserves an investigation of own people for following orders.

Next I can think of over 3000 reasons for suspects to be waterboarded at Gitmo or else where. Fact of the matter is the nation does not have the funds to allow Eric Holder's justice department. Having said that these "investigations" are likely a political ploy for the 2012 election, frankly I don't think Obama has genuine concern for this issue.

"William and Diavolo are right. If you are going to denounce other countries for torturing their people, then this country sure as shit shouldn't do it either." As logical as that is you forget the fact that every other nation of the world does the same thing, why should be care about "international law" when no else does. Not to mention the fact that for all the money we give in "aid" to the rest of the world we need approval from the U.N. and its nonbinding resolutions.

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#54595 - 05/17/11 07:46 AM Re: Torture [Re: Meph9]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Someone needs to be investigated for being so FUCKING STUPID.
Then their dumb ass needs to be fired.

If a suspect doesn't give up shit after 3 times being waterboarded, do you really think he is going to give up shit after 200 times? Hell, at that point, he probably was bringing his toothpaste and mouthwash.

The human body can get used to anything. It can turn pain into pleasure. I've hammered nails into people, this is something I know, believe me.

So, have you admitted that waterboarding is torture yet?

It's not a matter of use, it's a matter of how it is used. Can you understand the difference?

It won't be used as a political ploy now especially since Obama claims the Bin Laden kill. If the Republicans go after this, they then appear soft on terrorists.

"why should be care about "international law" when no else does."

Because we are The United States of America, policeman of the world. We put ourselves in this position, and if we are going to play the good guys, then we need to act or at least appear as the good guys.

"Not to mention the fact that for all the money we give in "aid" to the rest of the world we need approval from the U.N. and its nonbinding resolutions."

Honestly, no one cares about the UN. Its mainly used by countries with lesser power who team up/gang up to get their way.
That's why the UN ended up with known dictators on their board of human rights in the past. It's also why Russia will never again walk out of a UN meeting no matter how pissed they are. The only thing I can think of that is annoying with the UN is all the unpaid parking tickets they owe the city of New York, and how diplomats get immunity from any crimes they commit here, even murder.


Morgan


Edited by Morgan (05/17/11 08:46 AM)
Edit Reason: fix spelling
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#54597 - 05/17/11 08:01 AM Re: Torture [Re: ta2zz]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I always saw a sanitised and neat death as best, simple and non embellished. What's wrong with a simple bullet to the head and then carrying on with more important things?

I don't know what it is, whether it be personal or impersonal, humans wasting my time enrage me. I'd consider a person suffering in my presence, rude,
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#54608 - 05/17/11 11:52 AM Re: Torture [Re: Morgan]
Lucifer Rising Offline
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Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
It's not a matter of use, it's a matter of how it is used.
 Quote:
(I)f we are going to play the good guys, then we need to act or at least appear as the good guys.

While the matter of how it is used is important, does this second statement not bring into question the matter of use? We have to decide if the "good guys" can use torture. If so, how far should they be able to go with it? What forms of torture are the "good guys" able to use?

It might not make sense to water board somebody 300 times, but it also doesn't make sense to worry about how to use torture when you haven't addressed whether you should in the first place. The gut reaction of (nearly) everyone here, including myself, is that torture is an acceptable tactic. However, not everyone here is doing any thinking beyond that.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
It won't be used as a political ploy now especially since Obama claims the Bin Laden kill. If the Republicans go after this, they then appear soft on terrorists.

I'm guessing this was somewhat directed toward me since I brought up political consequences. I was actually referring to international relations more than domestic politics. The confusion was my fault; I didn't make that clear.
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Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#54615 - 05/17/11 01:44 PM Re: Torture [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The problem with torture is that you have to be pretty sure you got the right one. If someone planted a bomb somewhere and refuses to tell, the information can be “extracted” but if you have to arrest people who might know someone who is going to do something somewhen somewhere, torture will be an exercise in futility.

I read a story today about a former Gitmo this country took in. The Syrian kid got into trouble with dad, ran and ended up in Afghanistan at an al-Qaeda training camp. It's not that he wanted to be there but due to some circumstances, he just got real lucky. There they accused him of being a Zionist spy and he got the good treatment. He got locked up, tortured, had to witness on cam he was spy for Israel and got again locked up for two years. Then the USA entered, the Taliban ran and he was “freed”. The videotape of him got in the hands of the USA and he ended on the terrorist top-wanted list. None did bother about translating what he actually said on that tape and to Gitmo he went. He got treated like a dog, excuse me, dogs get treated better, for seven years until his case went to court and they finally discovered the poor sod had nothing to do with it all. Oops and sorry, yer free to go if anyone wants you.

This is the chap: Abd Al Rahim Abdul Rassak Janko

And that's the problem with torture; you might be having a ball on someone that is completely innocent. I know, life sucks at times but it sure sucks hard for some.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (05/17/11 02:24 PM)

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#54707 - 05/19/11 02:46 PM Re: Torture [Re: Diavolo]
Ringmaster Offline
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Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
Do I think that torture can be effective? Sometimes, as already pointed out earlier in this thread it depends on susceptibility of the individual being tortured. The argument of morality and political correctness will always come into question once someone sheds light on the activities being performed to extract information.

I personally think that if a person doesn’t want to divulge information and after interviews without torture methods reveal through mentality and behavioral mannerisms that he/she may be susceptible to such methods go for it and let them have it. Yes the “they will say anything to make it stop” argument may come up, however when something is said and cross referenced with current intelligence it should be pretty easy to determine whether or not the information is entirely accurate. If it turns out inaccurate rinse and repeat (so to speak). As far as becoming used to the torture goes, change it up every man/woman has a weak spot the hard part is exploiting that weakness.

When morality comes into play, the people committing the acts of torture (I’m willing to guess) don’t find it morally wrong being it’s their damn job. Those that do find it morally wrong could refuse and then someone who doesn’t object to such methods which inevitably will have the same outcome. We must remember that the individual defines their own morality (atleast those capable of thinking for themselves anyway).

Next we come to the “who should have that authority”. While this is a tricky question to answer I find that while there will always be corrupt politicians who only think of advancing their careers (same with some military members) I think that it should be a collective decision between interrogators, shrinks, and commanding officers.

What’s the stopping point? The stopping point is when shit adds up. It’s that plain and simple in my eyes.

Yes there have been cases where innocent people have been captured and tortured by our government, you need to stop and accept the fact that in war you have something called collateral damage. Always have and always will. I look at it like this; these people are suspects and may or may not know something that would serve the interests of national security. Am I willing to risk collateral damage in order to protect the interests of my country? Yes I am. Some may ask; “what if it happens to you?” Well what if aliens abduct me? Next question.
I was once asked in this very same topic of discussion with a family member against torture who asked me if I would like it if it was done to me. I told her that we can’t just assume that an American POW would ever be treated fairly. I then mentioned videos of Al Qaida decapitating people and threats of that being done on American captives is ever captured.

Well I figured having a military background I should throw my two cents in on this one. I’ve probably bored you guys enough.

To Meph: Of course it’s fucking unpleasant. I’m glad you are capable of using deductive reasoning to come up with such a simple assumption; now do you want a cookie? Also, start naming all 3,000 of those reasons no more no less. *Rolls eyes and sighs* this should be entertaining.


CHEERS,
RING


Edited by Ringmaster (05/19/11 03:22 PM)
Edit Reason: Side note to Meph
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#55985 - 06/17/11 10:16 PM Re: Torture [Re: Ringmaster]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: Ringmaster
What’s the stopping point? The stopping point is when shit adds up. It’s that plain and simple in my eyes.


Every invasion 'on the front' is an answer to the definite condition of the conscious, and this answer follows from the possibilities that are present. That is to say, from the disposition which is an image in potentia of worldly existence. The splitting-up into the single, one-sided and fragmentary character (e.g. punishment) suits the Mind. The action always has the character of completeness.

Hence, (punishment) has an overpowering effect. It is the comprehensive, completely Evil answer that operates Satanism, but the Mind has wedged itself in a hopeless, blind-spot; if it always continues unabated.

To become aware of exactly that is one of the many facets of the Self.

Typhon-Mephistopheles


Edited by paolo sette (06/17/11 10:24 PM)
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#55990 - 06/18/11 03:24 AM Re: Torture [Re: paolo sette]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
The following words may be considered for a stand up deadpan black comedy routine and nothing more.

Utmost professionalism would be paramount in administering a scientifically sound extraction method. And so extraction process under such conditions must be no different to conducting an experiment under a hypothesises. A clinical procedure as would a doctor would perform surgery to extract a foreign body from said patient. A body of evidence.

With regards to the problem of sadism. We can observe different emergences of what is sadism, the predominantly somatic, impulsive sadism, the heated kind, and then there is the cold kind, the cerebral sadism, the sophisticated, calm and calculated. The distinction comes about from the observation that one type is polarised as being uncontrolled indulgence and the other being polarised as methodical connoisseurship. Obviously there is a flux and shift about the gradients.

I'd present the notion that clinical sadism is going to produce the awareness of irreversibility about the proceedings, the the subject is futile to persuade himself otherwise under rational professionalism and authority which does not display any indications about desire for punishment or revenge, but instead, to clearly explain how it is absolutely necessary to "alter" and "manipulate" the subjects body as a strict science in sensitive communications towards extracting important information. Only the care of a trained professional will do. If the experiment is a failure then it was not the scientists (torturers) error in his conduct of said exercise, but a of a hypothesis directed at said failed subject by which the required body of evidence extracted was less than residual evidence being indicative that withheld is the entire body of evidence against all rationality. A residual quantity of evidence would indicate that a repeat administering of torture would be necessary after an interlude of medication, rest and resuscitation were allotted to the subject.

The sound scientific process regarding the extraction of crucial information pertaining to matters of national security remains valid: There is not an "absolute" certainty about chosen subject bodies withholding a body of evidence, hence, the decision to proceed with further carefully selecting subjects is only rational process toward resolving matters of national security which far outweigh any arbitrary issues of morality in terms of importance and severity.

A matter only resolvable by not mixing business with pleasure.

We are proud to have created the largest graveyard in the solar system and we have the audacity to walk about smiling, we are a horror planet.


Edited by Hegesias (06/18/11 03:45 AM)
Edit Reason: *cricket sounds*
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#56004 - 06/18/11 01:51 PM Re: Torture [Re: Meph9]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
Anything that intentionally damages the body and/or causes pain is torture. Waterboarding is no different than jamming a needle under someone's thumbnail and giving it twists and taps (a Vietnamese favorite).

Torture is inappropriate because (a) it is unethical and (b) it is non-productive. If you are an honorable, decent person, you don't mistreat helpless otherbeings under your control. And pain/fear just makes the victim do or say whatever he thinks will prevent or stop it, which of course is useless/unreliable/distracting.

I am both a PSYOP and an Intelligence officer, and in my career participated in many interrogations. I retired from active service in 1994, and at least prior to that time, torture was absolutely forbidden in the Defense Department. Indeed it was a court-martial offense.

You get information out of a captive either by convincing him that there is a good reason to give it to you (saving lives, exchanging benefits, etc.) or by tricking him (taking the interrogation in other directions so that he inadvertently reveals what you're actually interested in).

But what I really want to sensitize you to here is that individual human interrogation is not by any means the "whole enchilada" in competent intelligence, and especially PSYOP intelligence. It is just one of a number of resources and procedures which a competent Intel officer will use in a given assignment. Thus more often than not you are looking not for "Hollywood movie stunning surprises" from interrogations, but rather additional pieces of the puzzle: confirmations, impressions, experiences, opinions, feedback. Here's some good bedtime reading from U.S. Army PSYOP doctrine.
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#56021 - 06/18/11 05:27 PM Re: Torture [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
That PDF. is interesting; something I ought to have looked into a long time ago. From this information I will synthesise a more efficient methodology about which to go about my Satanism.

Nietzsche and Hegel aren't’ usually thought to go together, but I sythesised Bruce Lee's philosophy with Nietzschean concepts and Satanism effectively so why not try synthesising something else with Order of Nine Angles philosophy and my innate predisposition towards active nihilist thought and behaviours. By my contextual usage of what is dialectical active-nihilism it is a kind of apolitical reduction process toward devaluation of civilisations imposed information, by means of heretical or entropic memetics and re-establishing instinctual and natural values— logical counterpropaganda against the closed system of Judeo-Christian society and memeplexs. To use those images against the meme that was once part of the individuals conditioning. To uncover what society has covered through information imposed as actual reality, and artifice of academia such as arbitrary morality cloaked in a white laboratory coat. An attempt to re-establish the relationship between human being and nature; primal consciousness, out of which it's lawlessness, order emerge. This I feel, is intrinsic toward transgressive evolution and revaluations of antinomian values emerging perfectly natural human functioning.

My previous post was an example of a dialectical design for a juxtaposed argument to appear to counter excessive dissimulation and misconceptions raised in my post, about torture and what not.

I am not a professional yet my satirical attempt at psychopathic justification of violence wasn't without merit, I often write things by design of willing positive juxtapositions to appear from various angles from others. I'm glad to see the empirical realisation emerge thanks to your presentation blanketing the topic.
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#93991 - 10/29/14 12:33 PM Re: Torture [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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 Quote:
I am both a PSYOP and an Intelligence officer, and in my career participated in many interrogations. I retired from active service in 1994, and at least prior to that time, torture was absolutely forbidden in the Defense Department. Indeed it was a court-martial offense.


Post 9/11, the Patriot Act and Homeland Security - it's a different game. Torture is not only practiced, it's normalized when dealing with 'terrorists'. This has been a main talking point for Justified Torture of American hostages. It's reciprocation for tortures carried out on detainees to extract information.
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#93994 - 10/29/14 01:31 PM Re: Torture [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1143
Loc: San Diego, CA
Honestly, I have no concern or moral objection to the torture of anyone for whatever reason.

Anyway, no government agency is needed.

Enter Blackwater. If you subcontract that responsibility to a private enterprise you remove any and all need to ever respond to FOIA requests. Moving on...


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#93996 - 10/29/14 01:55 PM Re: Torture [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Is there such a thing as excessive torture? Isn't torture just torture?

Waterboarding used 266 times

 Quote:
C.I.A. interrogators used waterboarding, the near-drowning technique that top Obama administration officials have described as illegal torture, 266 times on two key prisoners from Al Qaeda, far more than had been previously reported.


The C.I.A. officers used waterboarding at least 83 times in August 2002 against Abu Zubaydah, according to a 2005 Justice Department legal memorandum. Abu Zubaydah has been described as a Qaeda operative.


Don't Execute Those We Torture

The Obama Administration isn't at all concerned with punishing this so-called illegal torture, it's all okay so long as it involves Terrorism.

Rmember this from 2008?

Most of the recent reports cover the alleged "Master-mind" of 9/11 'attacks', all this language is key when covering it in relation to the ISIS/ISIL kidnapping of Americans for torture and beheadings.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged September 11 mastermind was one of the terror suspects the CIA waterboarded

Back in 09' it was mostly semantics arguments, how torture was being defined and carried out by CIA and military on detainees.



Yep, that's unpleasant.
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#94005 - 10/30/14 08:02 AM Re: Torture [Re: SIN3]
Megatron Offline
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Registered: 08/22/14
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Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
Alison, have you seen the movie Prisoners, starring Hugh Jackman and Jake Gyllenhaal? It contains a subplot on torture and the ultimate effectiveness/humanity of it as a means to gain information. I thought it was done extremely well. Especially when contrasted with Gyllenhaal's opposite approach.

This movie is also good for its references to occultism throughout (all in easter egg format).
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#94009 - 10/30/14 10:08 AM Re: Torture [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6664
Loc: Virginia
I haven't but I'll check it out. I have however seen countless films that include some sort of torture to extract information. It's become somewhat normalized and I'd imagine that many Americans have become desensitized to it because of its portrayal in films and other media. In news reports it provides justifications for it but I doubt many of these same people that cheer it on would be able to carry it out if put to the task.

As young as I can remember I've been watching and have participated in violence. It may account for why nothing really shocks me about human behavior. It may also account for my amorality.

When the Hostel films came out, I noticed a trend of people trying to find out if there was any factual basis. There is. There's plenty of cases where humans were hunted down, sold and tortured for amusement. Why would that be shocking? If we can imagine it, we've done it.
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#94012 - 10/30/14 11:41 AM Re: Torture [Re: SIN3]
theharkonnen Offline
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Registered: 12/03/13
Posts: 218
There was a study in the mid-1900s (Forget when and the name of it) to scientifically test when an individual would commit genocide (Although, it could be used for torture as well).

Basically, they took a "patient" into a room with a would-be torturer - the torturer would be the actual subject of the experiment, whereas the patient was part of the experiment. The torturer was told that they were helping with an experiment on electricity or some such thing. As part of the test, the victim would inform the torturer when the pain was too great and wanted out. Most people in the torturer role looked at the person in charge for advice. In all cases, as part of the experiment, the person in charge would say go on.

The results were that most people continued the experiment regardless of the pain on part of the patient, with females being much more willing to go on then males (About 2/3 greater chance). They also found that so long as responsibility (The person in charge would take responsibility if asked) was delegated to someone else, they would be more willing to go on. Hence, why many Germans went along with everything in concentration camps.

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#94013 - 10/30/14 11:52 AM Re: Torture [Re: theharkonnen]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6664
Loc: Virginia
Are you talking about the Milgram Experiment?

It's also received its fair share of criticism.

It wasn't about genocide, it was about obedience to authority.
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#94027 - 10/30/14 03:47 PM Re: Torture [Re: SIN3]
theharkonnen Offline
member


Registered: 12/03/13
Posts: 218
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Are you talking about the Milgram Experiment?

It's also received its fair share of criticism.

It wasn't about genocide, it was about obedience to authority.



Yeah, thanks. I learned about it several years back and could barely remember the details.

It was created to see how obedience led to the Holocaust.


Edited by theharkonnen (10/30/14 03:49 PM)

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#94029 - 10/30/14 04:40 PM Re: Torture [Re: SIN3]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1126
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Is there such a thing as excessive torture? Isn't torture just torture?

Two reasons that torture can be "excessive" were expounded earlier:
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The problem with torture is that you have to be pretty sure you got the right one.
Often if you torture someone too much, he'll start telling you whatever you want to hear (even if it's total bull) just to get you to stop, and may lead you on a wild goose chase or give you a false sense of security. That's why I liked Der weisse Engel; he got to a point where he quit and said, "He knew nothing. If he'd known, he would have told. Get rid of him!" Now that's a fucking professional.

The other reason:
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Anything done more than 12 can become routine, and people get used to it. How can it be effective if after 150 times they do it you, you know you aren't going to die.
E.g., the effect wears off.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
In news reports it provides justifications for it but I doubt many of these same people that cheer it on would be able to carry it out if put to the task.
Many people can't do a lot of things from which they nonetheless benefit. I wouldn't hold that against them. I draw the line on annoying psychological disconnect when someone downplays or denies the extent of what's done on their behalf (see OP), or when the ingrate enjoys the fruits of what's done on his behalf but condemns the one who made it possible.
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#94033 - 10/30/14 05:50 PM Re: Torture [Re: XiaoGui17]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6664
Loc: Virginia
I read the entire thread prior to posting.

I don't see it as 'excessive'. The previous posters were speaking to effectiveness of torture.

Take for instance torture carried out by the U.S. government - who the hell trusts the government to report truthful and accurate information? De-classified intelligence is even embellished and released for the public benefit. In other words, to back up the narrative.

The treatment of detainees in Abu Grahib wasn't really intended for mass distribution. That was sort of an Oops! situation.

It would send a mixed message to the American public, it's okay to force Freedom & Democracy on other nations for mistreating their people, but it's AOK for the U.S. to do it, in the name of getting crucial information from dangerous terrorists!
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