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#54387 - 05/12/11 07:33 PM Golden Dawn
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
After reading numerous articles and statements in regards to the kabbalistic idea of the sephiroth or the qlippoth. Are they representitive of abstract principles or are they influencial streams of energy And do you think that Stephen Bleach's works are valid in the satanic perspective?
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#54400 - 05/13/11 12:45 AM Re: Golden Dawn [Re: Meph9]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1641
Loc: Orlando, FL
As far as the the Sephirotic and Qliphotic spheres go, it all depends on your perspective. Most Qabalists and occult initiates believe they represent both abstract principles as well as actual sources of divine/anti-divine energy that animate the universe.

Do I 'believe' it? No, because I'm not a Qabalist, nor have I ever had any experiences that would lead me to deduce that the whole of creation is divinely segmented into a set of ten anthropocentric attributes. I'm sure some other agnostic occultists have found it a suitable representation of the human perception of the cosmos or some other application, but Judaic mysticism just isn't my cup of tea.

Stephen Bleach, Stephen Bleach.... where have I heard that name bef- OH, yeah, that guy. Been a while.

Stephen Bleach is a theistic Satanist. Consequently his views would not fly with most people on this forum, as it consists of mostly self-labeled atheists who prefer to call Satan a "symbol" above all other categories.

My opinion? He is well-spoken and undramatic for the typical Theistic Satanist, although his Satanic-Qabalah pastiche is derivative and rather unimpressive. So I suppose I am neutral on the whole matter.
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#54649 - 05/18/11 06:36 AM Re: Golden Dawn [Re: The Zebu]
Selina Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 05/18/11
Posts: 12
Loc: UK
The Sephiroth in Qabalah represent the process of creation from nothing to something or the process of return from something to nothing.
The higher the Sephiroth the more abstract it’s concept as it leaves the physical plane.
There are a multitude way of experiencing understanding and using the Sephiroth depending on what level or plane you are working.
Yes they are ‘abstract’ and yes they are ‘energy’ depending on how you regard and use them.
There is no right or wrong way with Qabalah, you have to find the way yourself by exploring all its symbolism and ideas.
The Qliphoth are like shells. Think of the Qliphoth as being the outer casing that hides the fruit. Many make the mistake of thinking that the Qliphoth is the real thing, if only they would peel back the layers and look deeper.
As with anything, and as with all Magick, whatever you believe becomes a reality, and that’s the skill and advantage of imagination.
So if you were to imagine the Sephiroth to be energising and of a particular quality then so it will be.
But that all depends on the capabilities of your imagination and the skill of your Will in controlling it.

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#54662 - 05/18/11 01:49 PM Re: Golden Dawn [Re: Selina]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1641
Loc: Orlando, FL
Exactly, the Qliphoth are supposed to represent the 'husks' of creation- the dead shells that have only a spark of divinity trapped inside them.

However starting with Kenneth Grant, most LHP practitioners have regarded the Qliphoth as being complete 'spheres' in of themselves. I can't say it's academically correct but if they have their own explanation that's fine by me.

Personally I prefer the framework of the 'seven planetary spheres' as established in classical mythology and the grimoire tradition, which inspires many of my own ideas. Admittedly there is some overlap with the Sephirotic Tree of Life, and I employ it in a similar fashion.
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#57770 - 07/29/11 11:58 AM Re: Golden Dawn [Re: The Zebu]
Mindmaster Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Detroit, MI
Not sure what the OP is getting at or even why he thinks the average Satanist gives a rats ass about Jewish mysticism. I've researched a lot of this through out my youth and if your interest is anything but academic them you may be barking up the wrong tree. The whole concept of things is so arbitrary and arguably useless, and anyone doesn't tell you that is just trying to avoid seeming stupid themselves for spending so much time on it.

My little group of occultists views these things as highly outdated and we no longer use any of it. But, if you want a pragmatic approach to all of conventional western mysticism I can't really recommend a finer set of texts than the _High Magick_ series by Frater U.'.D.'. you will read the old stuff and then find yourself using the chaos magick techniques the most because they're the ones that work in most cases.

The future lies in two different areas in my opinion... Externally, in Chaos Magic.. internally in Neuro-Lingusitic Programming. Both of these processes seem to aim at the mark in two different ways, and don't require some silly dogma to function. The only thing you have to believe in is yourself! If you want a history lesson you can read up on Austin Osman Spare or some of Peter Carroll's works. Understanding the underlying mechanics to me is far more important than the mindless tedium of memorizing useless tables of correspondences and taking them at blind faith that they really mean anything. You may in fact get results with such a system if you in fact buy into the Abrahamic view of the world, but it's useless to most of us Satanic folks. \:\) If you don't at least subconsciously accept the truth of the mechanisms you use you are just wasting time -- they'll never work for you.

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#57797 - 07/30/11 01:03 AM Re: Golden Dawn [Re: Mindmaster]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1641
Loc: Orlando, FL
It's often difficult to speak clearly about the "Western Tradition", since the first thing one thinks of is usually the Golden Dawn, Thelema, and so on. But these are fairly modern inventions, pasted together from various odds and ends by overimaginative neo-Victorian playboys. A little bit of Gnosticism here, some Kabbalah here, a heavy dollop of romanticised Egyptology, and a pinch of Goetia... The problem is not so much "Gnosticism", "Kabbalah", etc, individually by themselves-- as they are strong systems in their own right-- but this sort of blind eclecticism that tries to mix it all together and thus remove them from any meaningful context they once had.

I think it's because we occult-types tend to have a "transcendence fetish", where we try to justify everything by saying it all contributes to some ultimate mystical purpose. We all want to be enlightened spiritual masters, to reach out and ascend the spheres of reality into the presence of the divine. That's fine if you are a Yogic adept studying under an authentic guru, a Jewish Kabbalist meditating upon the voluminous Aramaic archives of the Sefer-Ha-Zohar, or a Christian Gnostic yearning for the spiritual embrace of Sophia... but if you're a poorly-read New-Ager visualizing chakras at one moment and then evoking Buer the next, you're doing nothing more than looking silly and undisciplined.

Goetia is a perfect example of this. It is historically the tradition of necromancers, superstitious clergymen, devil-worshipers, and con-men. Yet Aleister Crowley pretty much based his entire ceremonial system off of goetic ritual, thinking it was somehow the great key to divine enlightenment. At least cunning-men trying to blackmail demons for money are being honest about their intentions.

Chaos Magick is kind of the same thing, except they don't take themselves too seriously and are less prone to the would-be-Qabalist's delusions of grandeur. If you want to master Neuro-Lingusitic-Programming, you'd be better off reading a psychology textbook. You don't need Spare or sigils to reach your subconscious effectively.
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