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#54501 - 05/16/11 05:47 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Autodidact]
Zach_Black Offline
member


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
You are correct that the basis is "fear", but you extrapolate too far and mistake survivalist-emotional fear with intellectual fear.

Diavolo almost got it right in stating it's evolutionarily beneficial, but it's not religion per se, it's the deference to a tribal leader to make decisions and call the shots. Usually the most powerful got to lead the clan, and usually that meant better survival for that clan. What most people are "hard-wired" to do is delegate the thinking and dealing with unknowns to that leader - it's a heuristic that also saves on brain power.

I think it barely falls short of a need, but there's no denying that human brains are bred to work that way, and it certainly saves a lot of time and energy for them. If they continue to actually survive and procreate, then by definition it's a successful survival strategy.

Understanding that humans work like this is helpful. Judging them inferior for being what they are is pointless, and, I might add, a tad egotistical. Why waste the energy? Simply exploit it. Unless you have a need to believe so ;\)

 Originally Posted By: blackzach
If you doubt that it is the fear of losing " control" and letting go that fuels religious fever and devotion consider this question…
Why would Organized Religion launch crusades to exterminate entire cultures ,population and races?


It's Tosh.0, put 20 seconds on the clock:
More power
More land
More money
More resources
Destroy an enemy
Give the aristocrats something to do
Political gains
Political distraction
Ooh, we're out of time ...

 Originally Posted By: blackzach

It was necessary to rid the world of people who reminded them of what it is like to not live in a world based on fear ,control,rigidity and repression.The righteous will not tolerate being reminded of what they gave up in the way of life, love and happiness to pursue their " faith" .Ironically ....They gave up the one thing they claim they value above anything else.The only thing they hope to reunite in some mystical intangible everlasting bless with their Lord. Their very essence,their soul.


Here (as above) you are confusing faith with power. Most of the time, it's necessary to get rid of people who give the masses hope of not living in fear. Religion is useful as a tool in this context, but in this case the main driver is power.

 Originally Posted By: blackzach
The universal need to believe should be looked at as a mass induced psychosis. A protective mechanism early man evolved after the horror,uncertainty and isolation he must of felt leaving the comfort of the jungle for the open fields towards the unknown.


Your main thrust is basically correct, but I say again - if you acknowledge that humans evolved with this behavior, how can you expect them to be something else?


I see your point. Well put.
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#54502 - 05/16/11 06:01 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Autodidact]
Zach_Black Offline
member


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
You are correct that the basis is "fear", but you extrapolate too far and mistake survivalist-emotional fear with intellectual fear.

Diavolo almost got it right in stating it's evolutionarily beneficial, but it's not religion per se, it's the deference to a tribal leader to make decisions and call the shots. Usually the most powerful got to lead the clan, and usually that meant better survival for that clan. What most people are "hard-wired" to do is delegate the thinking and dealing with unknowns to that leader - it's a heuristic that also saves on brain power.

I think it barely falls short of a need, but there's no denying that human brains are bred to work that way, and it certainly saves a lot of time and energy for them. If they continue to actually survive and procreate, then by definition it's a successful survival strategy.

Understanding that humans work like this is helpful. Judging them inferior for being what they are is pointless, and, I might add, a tad egotistical. Why waste the energy? Simply exploit it. Unless you have a need to believe so ;\)

 Originally Posted By: blackzach
If you doubt that it is the fear of losing " control" and letting go that fuels religious fever and devotion consider this question…
Why would Organized Religion launch crusades to exterminate entire cultures ,population and races?


It's Tosh.0, put 20 seconds on the clock:
More power
More land
More money
More resources
Destroy an enemy
Give the aristocrats something to do
Political gains
Political distraction
Ooh, we're out of time ...

 Originally Posted By: blackzach

It was necessary to rid the world of people who reminded them of what it is like to not live in a world based on fear ,control,rigidity and repression.The righteous will not tolerate being reminded of what they gave up in the way of life, love and happiness to pursue their " faith" .Ironically ....They gave up the one thing they claim they value above anything else.The only thing they hope to reunite in some mystical intangible everlasting bless with their Lord. Their very essence,their soul.


Here (as above) you are confusing faith with power. Most of the time, it's necessary to get rid of people who give the masses hope of not living in fear. Religion is useful as a tool in this context, but in this case the main driver is power.

 Originally Posted By: blackzach
The universal need to believe should be looked at as a mass induced psychosis. A protective mechanism early man evolved after the horror,uncertainty and isolation he must of felt leaving the comfort of the jungle for the open fields towards the unknown.


Your main thrust is basically correct, but I say again - if you acknowledge that humans evolved with this behavior, how can you expect them to be something else?


Meh........
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#54503 - 05/16/11 06:06 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Czereda]
Zach_Black Offline
member


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Hello \:\)

 Quote:
I learned a long time ago it is not worth arguing with religious folk.


It is even better for me, I will have the last word.

 Quote:
These very people push into the trusting and delicate minds of children their very own fears and delusions .If faith based mentality was replaced over night with a rational objective approach to reality,Most of these peoples emotional and mental health would crumble in days.


You write as if you had no fears or delusions. Lucky you! You are unique. What about the thought that only your views are rational and people who do not share them are stupid, naive or, worse, mentally disturbed? Is not that a delusion? What makes you different from Christians?

And what is reality? Can we view reality objectively, if it is filtered through our senses and emotions? The environment in which we live, people whom we meet, our biology, our beliefs, our personality, the level of education, even our changing mood, they all shape the way in which we view reality.

All people have fears and illusions. The way in which we view the world is very subjective and religion is a way of perceiving, explaining and judging reality. You would say that judging the facts and altering them is not the same. People who deny scientific facts do it because of their close-mindedness and plain ignorance. Faith does not interfere with science, because it belongs to the realm of the spirit not matter.


You must possess a keen and clever insight into the human psychoanalytic issue that I lack. Thank you for the diagnosis Mr. Freud .


One line posts are Frowned upon here... Morgan


Edited by Morgan (05/16/11 12:20 PM)
Edit Reason: information/warning
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#54511 - 05/16/11 10:32 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
This post might as well have been titled "No one can ever change their mind". People grow all the time. Can YOU (or I for that matter) grow them? No. The best we can do is offer a thing of value that helps the person break their exigent categories.

And despite what anyone says, we all believe in something . . .

JK

p.s. Zach? Zach Black? Here? On 600? HAILZ BRO!
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#54512 - 05/16/11 10:38 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Autodidact]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
Diavolo almost got it right in stating it's evolutionarily beneficial, but it's not religion per se, it's the deference to a tribal leader to make decisions and call the shots. Usually the most powerful got to lead the clan, and usually that meant better survival for that clan. What most people are "hard-wired" to do is delegate the thinking and dealing with unknowns to that leader - it's a heuristic that also saves on brain power.


Almost ha, I'm almost offended.

I disagree, the deference to a tribal leader is pure Will to Power based and as such, a natural submission towards hierarchy and stands apart from religion. Religion is a glue, providing not only the “us vs them” any group needs to survive, but through the demanding nature of most religious rituals, requiring a commitment of each member which is hard to fake, and in that, affirms their true commitment to the group. It empowers groups and ensures their loyalty and commitment.

It isn't too different from patriotism, at least not when patriotism involves taking up arms when needed.

D.

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#54519 - 05/16/11 11:38 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Not to reiterate what others have already stated, but this subject has already been researched and faith (not necessarily God, per se) was found to be hard-wired into our brains. I don't think it's really an issue of genetics, like so many have extrapolated, but it was originally used as a coping mechanism to understand/explain what appeared to be supernatural phenomenon. It stems from a fear of the unknown, and humans will always be fearful of something. Faith will never go away. The notion of a a 'God' might fade, especially with advances being made in science and physics, but not faith.

Only until much later in our evolutionary history did religion arise out of this faith and become synonymous with power and hierarchy.

Makes me wonder what goes through the minds of other intelligent animals such as dogs, cats, and cetaceans.

The Fallacy of the God Gene
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#54523 - 05/16/11 11:59 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Nemesis]
Thule Offline
temp banned
pledge


Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
Yeah on futurama Atheism is a religion in the future and they pray to atheismos! lol

I don't really feel faith in anything so its hard for me to believe someone when they say we are all "hard wired" to believe. I think we naturally trust our parents/those who raise us to an extent until some of us have motivation to believe otherwise. This is usually what causes religious faith.

I meet a lot of people who always say "why try, we will just fail"
or they say what I am doing will never work, stupid etc.

To which I ask- do you have a better solution? If not, then why do you criticize this action? For some reason the fear of failure seems to possess a lot of people.

"I'm hungry, but why look for berries, I just won't find them anyway. So I'll sit here and starve to death"

Seems like for these kind of people they need to have faith in order to go on.

"I know God will guide me to where the berries are so I'll keep on searching"

It does seem most people need to think this way for some reason. They can't cope with pessimism.

For me though maybe i'm different because I've already suffered in life. I would say,

"well I'll look for berries anyway, even if I don't find any its better than sitting here and starving".

That's my "faith". It's like I tell people

"if you want to abuse me you'll have to fight for it because I will resist you every bit of the way. It doesn't mean I'll be successful but it is my duty to simply fight it"

most people I meet either allow themselves to be abused without fighting back, or conversely they fight back simply because they have "faith" that they will win.

Maybe my brain is wired wrong or something so I think in an unusual way. But I have noticed the need for faith in 98% of people. It also tends to go along with other irrational traits.

Then we meet the top 2% of people who are actually rational. It's almost as if they must be trained to be rational or else must have some extreme experience to jar them into reality perhaps. I don't know what it is.

I always think of it in the way that people are in between gods and animals. Some more animal (irrational- instinct and emotional driven) some more god (sophrysne, lacking hubris guided by logic reason and learning). This is an old pagan school of thought. We can cultiivate the god or the animal a bit more but I think some of it at least is genetic, some of it cultural etc. so every person tends to be a different combination of god and animal. But the goal of Satanism is to reach god-hood- not to do away with emotions, but to achieve mastery over them so they serve you and the greater good.

I believe in star trek the vulcans are modeled after this greek ideal but they kind of present them as being flawed as a result (not fully human). I don't think so, they feel emotion but don't allow the irrational to over come their behavior.

I believe the less intelligent tend to rely more on instinct and emotion naturally. Which leads to faith.

I assume that most people here are aware of studies that link high I.Q. and education with Atheism and the lower a person's IQ the more "faithful" they are, the more often they go to church etc.

I guess though even I sometimes must lie to myself and have faith in the good as a way to emotionally want to go on. So I understand it but it's not normal for me to think this way.


Edited by Thule (05/16/11 12:03 PM)
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#54527 - 05/16/11 12:16 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Thule]
cash20 Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/05/11
Posts: 6
 Originally Posted By: Thule
Yeah on futurama Atheism is a religion in the future and they pray to atheismos! lol

I don't really feel faith in anything so its hard for me to believe someone when they say we are all "hard wired" to believe. I think we naturally trust our parents/those who raise us to an extent until some of us have motivation to believe otherwise. This is usually what causes religious faith.

I meet a lot of people who always say "why try, we will just fail"
or they say what I am doing will never work, stupid etc.

To which I ask- do you have a better solution? If not, then why do you criticize this action? For some reason the fear of failure seems to possess a lot of people.

"I'm hungry, but why look for berries, I just won't find them anyway. So I'll sit here and starve to death"

Seems like for these kind of people they need to have faith in order to go on.



It does seem most people need to think this way for some reason. They can't cope with pessimism.

For me though maybe i'm different because I've already suffered in life. I would say,

"well I'll look for berries anyway, even if I don't find any its better than sitting here and starving".

That's my "faith". It's like I tell people

"if you want to abuse me you'll have to fight for it because I will resist you every bit of the way. It doesn't mean I'll be successful but it is my duty to simply fight it"

most people I meet either allow themselves to be abused without fighting back, or conversely they fight back simply because they have "faith" that they will win.

Maybe my brain is wired wrong or something so I think in an unusual way. But I have noticed the need for faith in 98% of people. It also tends to go along with other irrational traits.

Then we meet the top 2% of people who are actually rational. It's almost as if they must be trained to be rational or else must have some extreme experience to jar them into reality perhaps. I don't know what it is.

I always think of it in the way that people are in between gods and animals. Some more animal (irrational- instinct and emotional driven) some more god (sophrysne, lacking hubris guided by logic reason and learning). This is an old pagan school of thought. We can cultiivate the god or the animal a bit more but I think some of it at least is genetic, some of it cultural etc. so every person tends to be a different combination of god and animal. But the goal of Satanism is to reach god-hood- not to do away with emotions, but to achieve mastery over them so they serve you and the greater good.

I believe in star trek the vulcans are modeled after this greek ideal but they kind of present them as being flawed as a result (not fully human). I don't think so, they feel emotion but don't allow the irrational to over come their behavior.

I believe the less intelligent tend to rely more on instinct and emotion naturally. Which leads to faith.

I assume that most people here are aware of studies that link high I.Q. and education with Atheism and the lower a person's IQ the more "faithful" they are, the more often they go to church etc.

I guess though even I sometimes must lie to myself and have faith in the good as a way to emotionally want to go on. So I understand it but it's not normal for me to think this way.


I get that. I come across these kind of people day in and day out. They'll say "Don't worry God is in control" or "all things happen for the good". How do you know that? You don't. They believe in there little universes that in some way they are on a mission for some higher power of purpose and reason.

 Originally Posted By: Thule
"I know God will guide me to where the berries are so I'll keep on searching"


It's like it's encoded in to there brains and most will never see that cause of there brainwashed minds. I was one of them until some so called prophet said your brother will be healed of his handicap I believed...I truly did and 2 years later dead from double pneumonia. Maybe that what it takes some sort of bash on the head and say look here this is where you are headed. This the cards you dealt dealt deal with it.

It's funny that you bring up the Vulcans I've had that thought at the back of my mind for a while. If you had no emotion what would you do?
_________________________
"All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man to lunacy." the.joker

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#54533 - 05/16/11 01:02 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
A lot of people need to believe in something greater than them that is in control for their own sanity. They can't handle the cold hard truth of reality; we are essentially "alone" - the Universe is chaos and no one (no god at least) gives a shit, when we die that it, show's over.

The slave religions are labeled such for a reason. They are comprised of slaves who need a master. Taking control of one's own life, for them, is scary indeed.

Fuck 'em.
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No gods. No masters.

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#54534 - 05/16/11 01:19 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: cash20]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
Faith per se has always been conflated with a wholesale swallowing of metaphysical notions that in themselves would have been dismissed as superstitious garbage. At least in my book. Most of the time, such conflations seem justified, especially when the devout spend so much time shoehorning all the unpleasant articles of faith into their paradigm.

It can be compared unfavourably to the stock package sales that were partially to blame for the recent financial crisis. You pack two good shares in with three decent and five bad ones, thereby magically raising the value of the entire package beyond the sum of the shares' value. Same way with xtianity. Just look at all the nonsense it contains, not to mention the glaring discrepancies. Most sensible xtians I know cut away the bits they don't like and stick with that, even though this can be construed as heresy and in principle the same as every other asshole with an agenda who uses the bible for his own ends.

Common to all the faith-based religions, however, is how evil, base, detestable and horrible everything we are and know is. It has to be. Otherwise, why should people reach for the divine? There has to be a pie in the sky.

The total absence of faith in the otherworldly and divine is the single most threatening conviction to the Abrahamic religions, not to mention the plethora of normative philosophies and political dogma that stress the importance of renouncing the material and human in favour of the idealistic and the altruistic.

In short, the faith that I despise is the blanket condemnation of everything that smacks of materialism, natural instincts, Will to Power, self-centred weltanschauung and self-love. It rejects Man. It makes me wonder how the xtians can rationalize the love their deity has for them. He made them imperfect and put them through hell for being bad, then killed his own son to redeem them. If anyone else had done this, they'd be locked up. But no, this is 'love', apparently.

If Joe Schmoe wants to worship his garden gnomes and ascribe all positive events to the auspices of those idols, he can knock himself out. He may even be an otherwise decent guy. Mad as a three-legged gerbil on speed, but nice.

But don't sell me belief in that piece of pastry waiting for me in the afterlife. The lights at the end of that particular tunnel have been switched off in accordance with a change in administration. An administration that stresses self-reliance, self-love and the total abandonment of moot concepts like guilt, shame and fear of the unknown.

To my eyes, it's not the faithless that are in opposition to the faithfuls' ideal paradigm, but the faithful that are in opposition to the faithless' embrace of human nature. No greater humanists than we.
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#54539 - 05/16/11 02:12 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The problem with faith and belief is that they are so ingrained in our nature that we more than often not even realize we are subject to them. I read the remark that IQ is a factor to believing or not but I'd say that isn't true. While it might be quite correct that on average more people with a higher IQ are atheists, I met enough “high-IQers” to know that even when they might not believe in god and often look down upon those that do, at the same time, they happily believe in ghost, reincarnation or stuff like aroma-therapy.

Even the idea that those that not believe in god are therefor more rational or more logical and thus somehow better is an act of faith. I often see atheists having more faith in science than Christians in god. I think if we'd analyze our thinking, we'd be surprised how much is based upon belief and faith and not on rational thought or logic.

True, many religious are funky monkeys and quite unpleasant unless you are part of their tribe but the same goes for non-faith based tribes like socialists, communists or even satanists for that matter. Quite often god is simply replaced by "Truth" but the rest of the behavior remains as it was.

D.

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#54542 - 05/16/11 02:29 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Diavolo]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
Oh, I'll grant that the ad populem is bad regardless of who sends it up the flagpole, eagerly awaiting salutes from all and sundry. That faith and belief are in us like every other human impulse is also beyond question. My only point was to liken faith in the supernatural with self-loathing.
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#54549 - 05/16/11 04:50 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
FAITH and BELIEF can indeed lead to the idiocy we see in the name of religion when allowed to go to extremes, but without "faith and belief," we rob ourselves of PERSONAL tools for the betterment of our own lives.

Now, many here claim the title SATANIST and guard it jealously. Nothing wrong with that. I AM a Satanist and have been one (faithfully) for nigh on 40 years. OH NO! Jake uttered the word FAITHfully... yes. I've been faithful to my PERSONAL philosophical "drug of choice" for forty years. Why? I BELIEVE on a personal level that the philosophy of Satanism as I know and accept it, enhances MY life and MY ability to thrive in the world.

Would I bristle if someone said a was wrong just because they have a book that says I am and that their invisible friend in the sky says so? No. Does my BELIEF in myself as the key component of my personal satisfaction with life, or my FAITH in my decision that my BELIEF in myself has helped me succeed make me a believer in the great god OOH BLA DEE and all he can do for me? Of course not. My faith and my belief are based on tangibles... personal history and demonstrated success.

Where we run into problems is when we ascribe FAITH and BELIEF to things we simply feel, with no proof of reality and no discernible means of gauging the authenticity and/or reality of our faith/belief. This is where Theism simply just doesn't compute for me and others as well, and not only in the case of Christianity.

"God is great and God is good" is a nice little platitude, but what do we have that can PROVE that point. Falling back on the Christian last gasp, "Well... how can you PROVE God ISN'T" is equally unprovable as the inevitable comeback, "Well... how can you prove God IS?" No matter how much rhetoric or how much speculation follows, when faith and belief are externalized, metrics, quantifiable limits and other devices of measutement go out the window.

This is where I return to my set point that FAITH and BELIEF are simply personal values and can be applied personally, but not so much universally. You can get some feel of reality, at least on a personal level, and while that may not be enough for a Theist of any stripe, as a Satanist, I know that my self satisfaction doesn't come from the recognition of others, but knowing that I'm living my life as is satisfying and justifiable to ME. I can see what I've accomplished in my life and pretty much tell if my faith and belief in myself has been justified. I don't need A BOOK OF LIFE for some god to judge my value or some scale for animistic deities to weigh my heart.

Would I be the same as a Christian? Personally yes. I think that what I have accomplished in my life I would have accomplished as a Christian, Muslim or Jew, given the same opportunities. But there would be a part of me that I personally think might be compromised, making me forever less than I COULD be, as I would be enamored with the belief that the answers I sought to get to where I am, and the skills I needed to get me here came from "out there," and not "in here."
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#54555 - 05/16/11 05:28 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Jake999]
Thule Offline
temp banned
pledge


Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
I am a very skeptical person, but I must trust things people tell me when they seem reasonable. Faith is thus necessary. We can't possibly test the validity of every assumption. There is not enough time in one's life.

However blind faith is the problem. Believing something despite evidence to the contrary. Or the inability to apply a little scrutiny to your own beliefs (i.e. see contradictions).
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#54572 - 05/16/11 10:09 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Autodidact]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
I agree with alot of the information explained here, in many varying posts. But I wondered while reading this if we had the opportunity to scientifically, or at least under controlled conditions see what would happen if we placed a number of young children in a closed environment. Meaning, Cut off from society as a whole, but fed, and taught how to read and write. No cultural information would be given, nor would they be taught about the history of humanity.

Would they discover a "God" on their own?

I dont think they would. It simply isnt a necessity. Im sure as they grew and aged, they would ask those questions.

"Where do trees come from? "

"Why were we born?"

"Who made the planet?"

You know, intelligent but ignorant questions all children eventually ask, but its the picture painted by those who raise them which govern those beliefs. The stronger the belief by the parent, usually the children follow suit. You can see it in alot of religious backgrounds.

I didnt think much of God or Jesus when I was made to sit in church every Sunday growing up. Seemed pretty boring. I would rather be playing outside, riding my bike and eating candy. The spiritual side of it never entered my thoughts much at all. It didnt seem as important as whats for dinner, and will we be going to the beach, park, carnival, etc. Life as a child for me, was about experiencing things. Pretty Satanic, just trying to have fun, enjoy myself. It was only when I reached my teens where things became more serious. But even then I had questions which blind faith could not answer to my satisfaction.

Its been my experience to note that religion acts alot like government. Setting rules for parishioners to follow. Taxes, and tribute to pay to the church for the privilege to sit among the pews. Guilt, like pain is a strong motivator, so it was wise for politicians to keep in the good graces of the local clergy to sway the peoples favor, and that was usually enough to maintain control. A more modern enigma is North Korea, where worshiping the "great leader" is the accepted religious practice.

Stratification would maintain order, without the input of any religious organization putting their two cents in. It may not seem fair to those on the bottom, but its would be at least natural.
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