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#54594 - 05/17/11 07:12 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Ghostly1]
Jason King Offline
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believe it or not this thought experiment actually was carried out . . . by the first few generations of Homo Sapiens. Culture is a natural byproduct of humanity, and would develop quickly, even in such a literal scenario. And subsequent to that, we would find that those who were capable of "answering" unanswerable questions vis a vis origin and meaning, while at the same time tying this to a system of valuation would gain momentum within the new culture. Not quite the stratification you were hoping for, but a more pragmatic analysis to be sure.

JK
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#54602 - 05/17/11 10:55 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Jason King]
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
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It was done before. Some king in England isolated children and did not put them in contact with any speech to find the original language. They never developed any complex language. There were also children raised by wolves historically. They ran around on all fours acting like dogs.

Culture takes many generations to develop. It is not like a child in pure isolation will suddenly write the Bible and build a church. It takes a progression of many hundreds or thousands of years.

We can see also there are many people in the world who have been isolated from the rest of humanity for thousands of years. Mostly they have something we could call religion, though it usually doesn't resemble Christianity (which is why they need to send their missionaries to convert the savages).

I do know there were many native tribes that did not believe in a god and the concept was totally foreign to them. So God is not inherent in humans. However I think all people believe in spirits or some unseen reality. I don't think this is psychological, but because there IS an unseen reality which defies our explanation. I have had many strange experiences myself which can only be explained through esoteric manners.

Most pagan traditions around the world are suprisingly similar though. Most native tribes believe in the "great spirit" for example.


Edited by Thule (05/17/11 10:56 AM)
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#54604 - 05/17/11 11:06 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Thule]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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 Originally Posted By: Thule
There were also children raised by wolves historically. They ran around on all fours acting like dogs.


Wolves usually don't nurture their dinner. As far as I know, these stories are either based upon legends (Romulus/Remus) or are just false.

D.

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#54605 - 05/17/11 11:19 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Jason King]
Ghostly1 Offline
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Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
Im sure it had, I just didnt hear about it. Very interesting...

On a side note about missionaries. It has been told to me, that there are only a finite number of slots in heaven for the Mormons, and Jehovah's if I recall. The real number they use escapes me at the moment but I know the rumor to be true.

If space is indeed limited, why recruit? Why convert someone else who might eventually over pace your progress and take your slot in heaven? Some masochistic competition? Seems rather silly to be overloading the life raft when you are yourself halfway out of the damn thing.

I dont see Jihads grabbing the explosives off another while the fuse is lit in competition. Maybe they dont realize they are all competing for the same 72 virgins.....
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#54614 - 05/17/11 01:43 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Diavolo]
Thule Offline
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No there are several historical cases. There was one recently in the soviet union of a boy abandoned by parents and raised by dogs. There was a case a few hundred years ago in France. Several of them all together.

I have seen on a nature show where one of the lion mothers took one of the babies from the prey it killed and nursed it and raised it but eventually it wasn't able to protect it and the other lions killed it.

Wolves do similar if they find a child maybe they will raise it or not.

Humans do the same with animals. It happens sometimes.

It seems mostly only dogs and wolves that raise humans. They have a similar social structure in many ways.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/250596/ukranian_girl_raised_by_dogs/
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#54616 - 05/17/11 01:56 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Thule]
Diavolo Offline
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I don't doubt there are great parents that lock their kids in a kennel with dogs but I don't buy it that they are solely raised by dogs, let alone wolves.

Since this thread is about “belief”, did you ever wonder about the menu of wolves? How long do you think any human would survive on raw meat or do you think momma wolf would cook it for them and maybe prepare some vegetables too?

D.

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#54617 - 05/17/11 02:02 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Diavolo]
Diavolo Offline
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Btw, some quick research showed that you're looking at a video of a 23 year old girl showing what she learned from the dogs she lived with between age 3 and 8.

I don't know about others but I am surely skeptical.

D.

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#54625 - 05/17/11 07:50 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Diavolo]
Ghostly1 Offline
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Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
I doubt real wolves, and not from a fairy tale would sooner attack, and eat such a defenseless animal that is man when he is a baby. Wolves dont change diapers, and they certainly wouldn't defend an infant from lets say a hungry bear.

There has to be some embellishment being done to the story.

It wouldn't be good press without some embellishment.
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#54626 - 05/17/11 09:05 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Ghostly1]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Actually, it's just the Jehova's that believe space in Heaven is limited. As far as I know, Mormons don't hold any beliefs like that.

The reason is for the recruitment is that it is a contest. The more people you convert, the better your chances of receiving a spot in heaven. So basically it is a pyramid scam, without a payout. Unless of course you count the money.

And D, you certainly aren't the only person skeptical of such a fantastical tale. Humans raised by wolves, I really doubt it. Sure, there's a chance in the 175,000 years of human history that it happened at least once. But there is just as good a chance that I will wake up next to Anna Kournikova tomorrow morning.
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#54628 - 05/17/11 09:18 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Ghostly1 Offline
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Registered: 04/10/11
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I just find it absurd, that people of intelligence..... real intelligence, can hold these beliefs in their head, and still follow modern scientific thinking.

I had a semblance of respect for Glenn Beck, after finding out who he was when Japan had that earthquake. He did a wonderful review of the problems faced there in a clear and concise manner. Then I find out he is a new Mormon. And I am left wondering where this went wrong.

It has to be a matter of circumstance for people to just fall into line with dogma and blind faith.

Ive had my moments of doubt and concern, and the last place I turned to was God, religion, or clergy. All I ever got from them was guilt, empty promises, and more questions.

To me it wasnt a matter of "belief" but asking myself where I went wrong.

As for waking up next to Anna, Id much rather Tiger Woods Ex. Just as hot, lots more money. But she is rather bitter over men id imagine. And hardly open to consorting with a sinister type.
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#54641 - 05/18/11 02:35 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
Zach_Black Offline
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Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
 Originally Posted By: blackzach
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Hello \:\)

 Quote:
I learned a long time ago it is not worth arguing with religious folk.


It is even better for me, I will have the last word.

 Quote:
These very people push into the trusting and delicate minds of children their very own fears and delusions .If faith based mentality was replaced over night with a rational objective approach to reality,Most of these peoples emotional and mental health would crumble in days.


You write as if you had no fears or delusions. Lucky you! You are unique. What about the thought that only your views are rational and people who do not share them are stupid, naive or, worse, mentally disturbed? Is not that a delusion? What makes you different from Christians?

And what is reality? Can we view reality objectively, if it is filtered through our senses and emotions? The environment in which we live, people whom we meet, our biology, our beliefs, our personality, the level of education, even our changing mood, they all shape the way in which we view reality.

All people have fears and illusions. The way in which we view the world is very subjective and religion is a way of perceiving, explaining and judging reality. You would say that judging the facts and altering them is not the same. People who deny scientific facts do it because of their close-mindedness and plain ignorance. Faith does not interfere with science, because it belongs to the realm of the spirit not matter.


You must possess a keen and clever insight into the human psychoanalytic issue that I lack. Thank you for the diagnosis Mr. Freud .


One line posts are Frowned upon here... Morgan


This is a response to Morgan. I am aware that one line posts are frowned upon here. Which is why I specifically made the reply to Czereda two sentences that occupy two lines. What am I missing here? Does a 'one liner' actually mean more than two sentences ? How many words must be used in a post/comment to avoid getting a instruction/warning about posting a ' one liner'?

This to me represents a 'one liner'.
" One line posts are Frowned upon here... Morgan"

That was one sentence and occupied one line. Granted I am aware you are a moderator and may not be subjected to the same rules and regulations put upon non-moderators. But clarification and specifics would really help me here.

I am going to assume that from now on I should type out long replies. Even if I can sum up my thoughts and feelings with in a couple sentences.

I am not trying to deliberately be a smart ass. Merely trying to be clear on the definition of a 'one-liner' if indeed your post consist of more than one line and one sentence.
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#54642 - 05/18/11 02:52 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Zach Black
If you look at the two replies you made before the two line post, they were one line posts, one with just the word "meh!".

A lot of effort goes into enforcing rules like banning one line posts, this is one of the many reasons why the standard on 600Club is high intellectually and academically.


Edited by mabon2010 (05/18/11 02:54 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling
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#54643 - 05/18/11 02:59 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Zach_Black Offline
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Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
A lot of people need to believe in something greater than them that is in control for their own sanity. They can't handle the cold hard truth of reality; we are essentially "alone" - the Universe is chaos and no one (no god at least) gives a shit, when we die that it, show's over.

The slave religions are labeled such for a reason. They are comprised of slaves who need a master. Taking control of one's own life, for them, is scary indeed.

Fuck 'em.


I agree entirely with this Six. A lot of people seem to have this need. It was pointed out in this thread that people are genetically predisposed with this need . I disagree. My only real reference is based on my personal experience and a few authors that have studied this.
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#54646 - 05/18/11 03:18 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: mabon2010]
Zach_Black Offline
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Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
Ahh......I see now. I just assumed the comment was directed at that particular post/comment . My bad Morgan. Nice job in not only correcting me Mabon but seriously placing your nose centered in the 'bum' of the 600 club.

But in all seriousness Mabon. Thanks for pointing that out. I overlooked that. I thought 'one liners' applied to creating threads. Not just responding in comments. Now I know . Oh and Mabon, I put a napkin in your inbox. You got something brown on your nose again .


Edited by blackzach (05/18/11 03:19 AM)
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#54653 - 05/18/11 10:14 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
Hey Zach,

Just a point of clarification. Obviously on some things a one line comment is appropriate. The rule exists to weed out folks who routinely post comments like "oh yeah I agree with so and so, well said" and things to that effect. The general idea is that if one doesn't have something of value to add to a conversation then it's better to simply have fewer comments on a thread. I like this idea quite a bit as it generally requires people to think about the topic before adding something to it.

Now, so I can avoid being hypocritical, I'll comment on your post \:\)

I agree with the general sentiment and will add that religion, in addition to all you've stated, also adds a dimension of stability, hierarchy, and a sense of belonging to folks who need that sort of thing.

I don't think we can really argue that people as a whole like a predictable and systemic approach to life. People like rules and they like to think that abiding by them will prove their value to society and to their religion. People also have a tendency to organize their personal lives into repeatable patterns because there is a comfort in a lack of chaos. Religion provides a systemic approach to understanding the universe for those who are inclined toward belief. The universe is a huge vast, dark, cold, scary, unknown place and by saying that their god created it allows some to believe that this inherently means some sort of mastery over it (ie god won't kill his faithful flock... those who really, really, really abide his word).

Many folk I've encountered on the LHP do the same things with academia. They organize their thoughts into comfortable patterns of 'knowledge' so that they can assume a greater mastery over something without truly understanding that what we really 'know' is just representative of an overview... a summary of a few thousand years.

In the same way that a snake will burrow and a bird will nest, a human will seek to add order/comfort to his/her world. Right hand path religions, for reasons unfathomable to most who will read this, provide that order and security to a larger balance of the world population (reinforced daily by the corporate controlled media - different subject, but I threw it in there).

Very few of us embrace the darkness and seek to look out beyond the curtain.

And Mabon:
Policing of the boards is the sole domain of the moderators (those with green names). I would use caution in presuming to speak for them.

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