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#54420 - 05/14/11 04:39 AM The Need to Believe
Zach_Black Offline
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Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
The Need to Believe -

I learned a long time ago it is not worth arguing with religious folk. You cant hope to achieve much trying to enlighten mystical superstitious weak minded people.Why use logic and reason to argue or debate someone who has a deep rooted psychological need to resist it? It is like arguing the shape of a cloud with a blind man? People have a NEED to BELIEVE. I cant help but to see their "faith" for what it is. A Neurotic coping Mechanism deeply anchored in the character and emotional structure of a delusional and crippled victim.A even sadder fact is these righteous,pious pursuers of heaven will probably never recover.Their entire lives,security,thought process, logic,reasoning,longing and general impression of the world around them is built on these fairy tales .

These very people push into the trusting and delicate minds of children their very own fears and delusions .If faith based mentality was replaced over night with a rational objective approach to reality,Most of these peoples emotional and mental health would crumble in days.

Faith is rooted in fear. A fear of the unknown. The unpredictable. And most of all the fear of living a life free of their conflicting neurotic mechanisms. That they now are entirely dependent on as a permanent copping mechanism.A delicate house of cards to repress guilt,rage,fear,lust,ect..

If you doubt that it is the fear of losing " control" and letting go that fuels religious fever and devotion consider this question…
Why would Organized Religion launch crusades to exterminate entire cultures ,population and races?

They claim they are doing God's work by ridding the world of "savages ,heathens,beastly,course ,perverse and deviant people. It was to much for the Holy to see free and unrestrained happy people half naked not ashamed of their own passions. These " primitive " "Godless " free loving ,living people threatened to expose the fear and inherent irrational contradictions that their culture,religion and faith rest and depend on.
It was necessary to rid the world of people who reminded them of what it is like to not live in a world based on fear ,control,rigidity and repression.The righteous will not tolerate being reminded of what they gave up in the way of life, love and happiness to pursue their " faith" .Ironically ....They gave up the one thing they claim they value above anything else.The only thing they hope to reunite in some mystical intangible everlasting bless with their Lord. Their very essence,their soul.

It was necessary to burn countless thousands of woman alive simply because they reminded these miserable ,impotent men that they themselves once felt alive in their groins. And what could be more murderously provoking than to arouse the last bit lust in some miserable ,resigned ,hateful shell of a man who longs for death?

The righteous and holy will always attempt to remove and exterminate others who think differently and do not reinforce their delusions. Even others that are equally crippled holy men of a different cloth. After all ,what if the other religion is right? There was no clause for that in the gospels?So if they are right,that would make you wrong. And a cloud of anxiety and horror will surely await .There is no other reason or explanation to make light of how even intelligent ,educated worldly and presumably logical well adjusted people could ignore scientifically proven facts that are in sharp contradictions to their faith?
Even Scientist themselves are still spending their entire lives trying to prove evolution is false. That carbon dating and the known age of the universe around us is grossly inaccurate.In the opposition of all evidence and reason they still will not let go of their delusions. They can not. It is simply something they are incapable of doing. It would mean an end to the fictions they have grown depended on to cope and function. A dissolving of the very deep emotional layers of repression and rigidity they have spent a life time building.

Not to mention for the first time in their lives they are unsure of what lies beyond.

If a man of average intelligence reviews the idea of God with a rational objective approach he will come to one conclusion.
God is possible ,but highly unlikely.

And one more Agnostic is born. God is nothing but an imaginary friend for adults.

The universal need to believe should be looked at as a mass induced psychosis. A protective mechanism early man evolved after the horror,uncertainty and isolation he must of felt leaving the comfort of the jungle for the open fields towards the unknown.

Zach Black
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#54433 - 05/14/11 12:48 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The reason religion is such an essential part of humanity is because it was evolutionary beneficial. Religion, even when controlling the believers, is a great glue for groups and as such, increases their odds in survival and dominance.

In the end, religion is merely an expression of Will to Power. Yes I know, I look at everything in this light but it is impossible to neglect it since it is so fundamental. Even the righteous and holy express their dominance in them being righteous and holy. They climb higher on the hierarchy compared to those less righteous and less holy, even when, in reality, this whole hierarchy itself, exists purely in their mind. It is interesting Will to Power expresses itself in a purely abstract realm and dominance there feels as real as were it real.

A part of our predisposition to believe is caused by nature having developed this tendency is us increasing the survival of our young. Not that nature constructed it as much as those showing these traits had better odds at surviving. When we are young, we are inclined to accept what authority tells us and it is probably this which makes many vulnerable to religion or authority in later life. This and the option it provides to channel our need for dominance into a group having the potential to manifest this.

Most of us are automatically inclined towards certain beliefs, some because they provide to our needs, others because not believing is so counter-intuitive, it is too hard to resist.

D.

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#54435 - 05/14/11 12:57 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
It was necessary to burn countless thousands of woman alive simply because they reminded these miserable ,impotent men that they themselves once felt alive in their groins.


Countless thousands of men as well. And hung, drawn, drowned, imprisoned, et cetera.

 Quote:
The universal need to believe should be looked at as a mass induced psychosis.


If psychosis can be defined as a mental illness, then why do you also categorize religious faith as a deep-rooted coping mechanism present in most of mankind? If the majority of humanity exhibits these behaviors, then they are not signs of mental illness, but natural human behaviors. It is the empirical logicians who are psychotic.
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#54436 - 05/14/11 02:40 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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 Quote:
People have a NEED to BELIEVE. I cant help but to see their "faith" for what it is. A Neurotic coping Mechanism deeply anchored in the character and emotional structure of a delusional and crippled victim.A even sadder fact is these righteous,pious pursuers of heaven will probably never recover.Their entire lives,security,thought process, logic,reasoning,longing and general impression of the world around them is built on these fairy tales .
It almost seems you are saying that every religionist isn't capable of reasoning or using logic.
Religion is just that one thing to oversimplify life, a reference of ideological morals. God, in the light of psychology, shouldn't be seen as yet another fairy-tale but as a fictive reference. Just as children need a father and a mother figure to develop, adults need some kind of figure which can give basic references on how to act and live with others. The wanted god is but a psychological need rooted in any of us.

You can see that same trend developed in the beginning Satanist wherein ASL assumes the referenced place. In Luciferianism there is lucifer etc.. And if one person doesn't fit the bill then idolatry start to occur. Which happens quite alot with atheistic individuals wherein people like Dawkins and Brian Greene are the idols.

 Quote:
These very people push into the trusting and delicate minds of children their very own fears and delusions .

Which probably are also your own fears and delusions for a big part. Each person acts differently on a situation or a question on morals.

 Quote:
They claim they are doing God's work by ridding the world of "savages ,heathens,beastly,course ,perverse and deviant people.

I'm pretty sure you somewhere once had a discussion about culling and progressing a certain group of people. From what is it different?

 Quote:
The righteous and holy will always attempt to remove and exterminate others who think differently and do not reinforce their delusions.
I already know what's going to happen next after this post was read carefully.

 Quote:
Even Scientist themselves are still spending their entire lives trying to prove evolution is false. That carbon dating and the known age of the universe around us is grossly inaccurate.
I would love to see a scientist do that. But then again you have science (as done by people who got a proper education in their respective fields) and "science" (guess who..). Ofcourse the date of everything around us is inaccurate, but at least the borders of our inaccuracy are known.. (don't you simply love statistics?)

 Quote:
God is nothing but an imaginary friend for adults.
It's a bit more complicated but still a nice ending.
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#54437 - 05/14/11 02:42 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Although religion did have its finger in a huge amount of killing, I'd say the number can be neglected compared to all killed for quite different reasons.

The first World War resulted in about 15M dead, the second about 66M, Stalin's regime 20M, Mao's 40M; which provides good evidence religion is hardly a factor in conflict. We're just great at murdering others and the only reason behind all this is our irresistible drive to dominate.

D.

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#54463 - 05/15/11 07:48 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: The Zebu]
Zach_Black Offline
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Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
 Quote:
It was necessary to burn countless thousands of woman alive simply because they reminded these miserable ,impotent men that they themselves once felt alive in their groins.


Countless thousands of men as well. And hung, drawn, drowned, imprisoned, et cetera.

 Quote:
The universal need to believe should be looked at as a mass induced psychosis.


If psychosis can be defined as a mental illness, then why do you also categorize religious faith as a deep-rooted coping mechanism present in most of mankind? If the majority of humanity exhibits these behaviors, then they are not signs of mental illness, but natural human behaviors. It is the empirical logicians who are psychotic.


Your logic is flawed I do believe. Simply because the masses believe a certain something to be true does not mean this ideal moves out of the realm of mental illness. I do adhere to the fact that the masses are indeed neurotic.
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#54464 - 05/15/11 07:59 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
Zach_Black Offline
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Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
@ Dimitri

(quote)

"Just as children need a father and a mother figure to develop, adults need some kind of figure which can give basic references on how to act and live with others. The wanted god is but a psychological need rooted in any of us."

I disagree . I do not think adults 'need' an imaginary friend. I do not. Sure the herd will cling to what makes life easier to swallow. But by no means is it required nor necessary .
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#54466 - 05/15/11 08:20 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
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Belief is an important attribute of growth:

1. the number one mode of growth in children is play, they cast no limits upon themselves unless adults have placed that restriction upon them. The child's imagination is limitless and so is their potential growth since the child believes the impossible.

2. those that are in a hole in life can rationalise that this is their only future, or could "believe" in a better future and strive towards that.

3. Those that believe they are stupid or ugly will convey that in their resulting actions, merely changing your belief in your self image to a positive aspect will change the body language and effect the attitude and reactions of others towards you.
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#54467 - 05/15/11 08:45 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
TV is God Moderator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Just as children need a father and a mother figure to develop, adults need some kind of figure which can give basic references on how to act and live with others. The wanted god is but a psychological need rooted in any of us.

I am inclined to agree because I am inclined (keep in mind my use of the word inclined, I'm not totally sold on this) to believe the theory that neurotheologist Matthew Alper argues that the human brain is evolutionarily "hardwired" to believe. The theory is quite logical but neurotheology is a young field of study and there has yet to be any major hard evidence.

That said-

 Originally Posted By: blackzach
Your logic is flawed I do believe. Simply because the masses believe a certain something to be true does not mean this ideal moves out of the realm of mental illness. I do adhere to the fact that the masses are indeed neurotic.

I would have to agree with Zach here. Mental illness does not mean unusual minds. Anxieties, moments of depression, nervousness, phobias, ect. are all subtle forms of mental illness (although that term may feel a little strong), and are normal functions of all our brains. Even the stronger ideas of mental illness are coping mechanisms built into the brain, not at all abnormal or unusual under the circumstances they occur.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Which happens quite alot with atheistic individuals wherein people like Dawkins and Brian Greene are the idols.

Perfect words before I could say them, and the perfect example of what I'm trying to get at. The need to believe is the manifestation of a more basic need, the need for authority.

It seems to me that evolution has set up a simple successful model to extend itself outside of genetics and into social structure for the survival of social animals. A few that try new things (the element of randomness previously found in DNA mutation and crossbreeding) and the many that follow those that appear successful in their new things. The distinction between the two is easily made in the psyche of whether or not one requires authority or not.

God is the idea of ultimate authority. Belief of the majority is the interface of majority behavior with their needs, environment, and some sly fellows that managed to pull the strings on that god puppet.

This is why I insist the battle on religion isn't such a big deal. You can fight the need to believe all you want. Even if you win it won't change the nature of social animals.

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#54469 - 05/15/11 09:35 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Dimitri]
Dark Beauty Offline
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Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 13
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
It almost seems you are saying that every religionist isn't capable of reasoning or using logic.
Religion is just that one thing to oversimplify life, a reference of ideological morals. God, in the light of psychology, shouldn't be seen as yet another fairy-tale but as a fictive reference. Just as children need a father and a mother figure to develop, adults need some kind of figure which can give basic references on how to act and live with others. The wanted god is but a psychological need rooted in any of us.

You can see that same trend developed in the beginning Satanist wherein ASL assumes the referenced place. In Luciferianism there is lucifer etc.. And if one person doesn't fit the bill then idolatry start to occur. Which happens quite alot with atheistic individuals wherein people like Dawkins and Brian Greene are the idols.



While its not wise to begin an argument on the premise of "each", "every", and "all," one must ask, why would any rational or logical human being seek religion?
There is no NEED to believe. There are only needs which perpetuate our survival: food, clothing, shelter, and sex, for the further continuation of a species.

Religion does just the opposite in terms of oversimplifying life – it overcomplicates it. Though religion can be used to reference morals, its own compass is so destroyed by its own hypocritical tenets, unreasonable guidance examples, and blatant implementation of segregational theories, that there is now a very recognizable divide between religion, morals, and ethics.

The God concept shouldn't be viewed as another fictive reference, unless, it is taught as just that––a concept. One of ultimate human perfection attained in an aspect of life.

Using God to determine how to treat and live with others has been manifested for centuries in the state of mankind: war, famine, segregation, intolerance, misogyny, and murder, not to mention a force which asks of human sacrifices, impregnates women, and so forth. If this is where one develops their interpersonal skills, there is no surprise for the result of poverty, imprisonment, being killed, dying of disease, bigotry, and so forth.

We can replace the word "God" with guidance. There is no psychological need for an entity by something which is human. That idea can only be predicated by something human to begin with. As those who aren't delusional can confirm, spirits can't speak and have no effect on the tangible world. You'd be better off worshipping electricity. At least that makes sense.


Self-mastery and confidence eliminate the desire, or need, for idolatry. For idolatry to take place, there has to be a disconnect in one's own self-knowledge, in order to place anyone, or anything else, above one's greater good. This relates to the ignorance of the masses maintained by the elite in all fields. Blindness to one's self is the worst ignorance of all.
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#54477 - 05/15/11 11:49 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Dark Beauty]
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
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The problem I have with this is that people consider christianity, religion and a belief in god to be the same thing. I do not. I can believe in god or be religious in a totally anti-Christian way.

So therein lies the logical fallacy- Christianity is wrong= religion wrong= god is wrong.

They aren't the same.

Also different people are different. Maybe some people are hard wired to believe and others not. That is the main assumption in our culture today (all people are essentially the same) which I don't buy into.

Instead of claiming "fear" is the root of x-ianity it might be better said "weakness" is the root of it. Fear coming from weakness. The other half are those who don't believe in x-ianity but exploit it for their own purpose. Those would generally be the people who incite the masses to kill savages (competition) for they don't want to lose their control over the herd.

The average Christian doesn't have much of a will of his own so it does not seem he would be likely to accomplish or desire anything like destroying others. Most Christians attack other religions because their religious masters tell them too. This is used as a devise to control them, for they must have absolute fanatical faith in what they do, otherwise they may be forced to evaluate the world and think for themselves. Yes they do fear entertaining foriegn ideas because then responsibility would rest on them rather than on their book or their masters.

They want a simple world where they can simply be told the reality they are living in and told what to do in life and can follow others and derive their power from that of other people.

Indeed why would a wolf argue with a sheep? Why would the wolf need to convince the sheep that the sheep's life is not rational? It simply is what it is.

The weaker the person is (or the longer his conditioning is) the less likely he or she will leave the sheep thoughts.

However some stronger people have simply been raised in the slave religion so with a little nudging will leave it.

Similarly a weak person raised Satanist will be Satanist only in word, but become a "sheep" like Christian follower.

The religion doesn't make the man- the man makes the religion. The weak will be attracted to sheep ways of thinking and the strong with warrior ways of thinking.

In the same way a strong person raised Christian will more or less act like a satanist and become only christian in outer form or in term only.

It's all about weakness or strength.

So once you realize someone will not respond to logic, yes might as well stop arguing with them, but in some rare cases you might find some logical people.

Interesting side story: I once met a man in church who was getting a college degree in mathmatics. I debated the Bible with him and he was very knowledgeable, very smart, always completely logical. He would in bring up many good points, but in the end say "you are right". That's right- he admitted what I said was right. No other Christian had done this. They usually use the illogical to argue logic, or get emotional.

But in the end despite the lack of rational reason for the religion he accepted it. I suppose out of an emotional need. Probably also this was where his friends and family were (the church). I have seen that quite often.

This is one reason I shifted my own religion to be about "actions" rather than belief. If a person goes to the "temple" does the rituals, lives his life according to the morals and customs then he is a member, belief is not involved.

Belief is mostly emphasized only in slave religions, because it involves submission. Islam literally means submission. Christians literally become "children of christ". etc.

In pagan religions belief played very little role. It is what you are. Either you are a Greek (and thus follow Greek customs, rituals etc.) or you aren't. It doesn't matter what you believe. Judaism today still retains this "tribalistic" aspect of religion.

We can see it in Buddhism as well. You are encouraged to question. Buddhism is not so much about belief but about "right action" you live your life in a buddhist way or you don't. You can be x-ian and buddhist at the same time.

Similar with Taosim and so on.

A person could be Satanist and also a Taoist. Or satanist and also pagan. Satanist also buddhist. But a person can't be satanist and Christian. Christian is exclusive, and it also is based totally on belief (in theory).

Again it's all about control.


Edited by Thule (05/15/11 11:59 AM)
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#54480 - 05/15/11 01:45 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Thule]
Dark Beauty Offline
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Registered: 12/22/10
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@ Thule

True, belief in God and religion are not the same thing. However, God is a concept and religion is the organizational structure of that concept.

If Christianity is perceived as wrong, and Christianity is a religion, than yes both would be false. God is not incorrect when applied as a concept, instead of an invisible all-governing force use to manipulate human beings.

Satanism is classified as a philosophy and a religion. My inclination is based on a philosophic and Atheistic nature. Although I have a strong background in the magical arts, I don't utilize that aspect very much. I chose to dwell primarily in the intellectual realm of Satanism, and rarely in the religious realm.

I consider Satanism 'the Anti-Religion' since its practice and doctrines are based on man's enjoyment and satisfaction derived from every urge and desire. Adhering to one's instincts needs no interference from a deity, godhead, or floating entity.

Anyone who has the assumption that "all people are the same" either were born and raised in socialist countries and are completely ignorant, or are clinically retarded. The disparity between wealth and poverty throughout the world is unhinging.


" The average Christian doesn't have much of a will of his own so it does not seem he would be likely to accomplish or desire anything like destroying others. Most Christians attack other religions because their religious masters tell them too. This is used as a devise to control them, for they must have absolute fanatical faith in what they do, otherwise they may be forced to evaluate the world and think for themselves. Yes they do fear entertaining foriegn ideas because then responsibility would rest on them rather than on their book or their masters. "

The very Bible the Christian quotes from speaks of his own free will. He just hands it over like change going into a collection plate while he signs onto madness. Christians don't accomplish or desire anything like destroying others? Have you been tied up in a basement sense birth? Read the Bible, then... you know what, you can fast forward to googling Terry Jones. There are so many ways you could be ripped for that statement alone...but I'll let have you have your Sabbath day.


Christians don't need pastors to incite attacks. Nor does man always need a reason to kill. Christians, like other animals, simply respond to uncontrolled urges to defend what they have given birth to ( albeit ideology or their young). Yet I have more respect for the animal. True to its instincts, animals don't protect their young based on faith, but on biological evidence that the particular animal came from its womb and is of its family.

Religion doesn't make the man, man makes the religion? Really? Well, man has failed. But only an insane man pledges his allegiance to a religion which creates a manual for and fosters centuries of bloodshed, as well as other human atrocities while claiming perfection, holiness, righteousness, moral superiority, and obedience. How schizo and hypocritical?


The man you debated agreed with you to appease you, knowing sooner or later you'd bow down to his ever-powerful trump card--faith. Belief can be proven, but faith creates delusional evidence for the unseen and unproven. So how can one on the fence not fold?


Someone whose royal flush consists of many faith cards is already ripe for the slaughter. This is insight into their decision making process and gives the wiser man an opportunity to add them unknowingly to his ranks. What better soldier than one who asks no questions, requires no evidence, and bases his entire life on something unproven and theoretically impossible, all to be manipulated by the next looney cultist in a cheap Sunday suit. What a waste of life.
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#54483 - 05/15/11 01:56 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Dark Beauty]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Well, considering that experiments in quantum physics reveal that we are all made of subatomic particle waves and only perceive what is necessary to survive in our ecosystem, what perpetuates the stream of causality from beyond the 4th dimension can be seen as god, raw data, although I would regard black holes as the dark gods of all creation and destruction, the universe eventually coming to one black hole state via entropic heat death— primal Chaos. And if you think about it, we reach and become with that primal state instantaneously upon death considering that causality and perception cease.

But anyway, since humans stimulate their ego almighty with ordered nonsense, the most fixated are the most vulnerable victims, of their own beliefs. If we can realise this and realise that we have the ability to alter our beliefs we free ourselves from the creeping fractures that rigid belief is prone to by smashing the belief to the ground and rebuilding on hard earned experience.

We who are active nihilist' have nothing in common except that we eventually value a master morality based on instinct. Why? Because even if you don't believe you inexplicably feel.
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#54492 - 05/15/11 08:03 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
Czereda Online
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 1815
Loc: Poland
Hello \:\)

 Quote:
I learned a long time ago it is not worth arguing with religious folk.


It is even better for me, I will have the last word.

 Quote:
These very people push into the trusting and delicate minds of children their very own fears and delusions .If faith based mentality was replaced over night with a rational objective approach to reality,Most of these peoples emotional and mental health would crumble in days.


You write as if you had no fears or delusions. Lucky you! You are unique. What about the thought that only your views are rational and people who do not share them are stupid, naive or, worse, mentally disturbed? Is not that a delusion? What makes you different from Christians?

And what is reality? Can we view reality objectively, if it is filtered through our senses and emotions? The environment in which we live, people whom we meet, our biology, our beliefs, our personality, the level of education, even our changing mood, they all shape the way in which we view reality.

All people have fears and illusions. The way in which we view the world is very subjective and religion is a way of perceiving, explaining and judging reality. You would say that judging the facts and altering them is not the same. People who deny scientific facts do it because of their close-mindedness and plain ignorance. Faith does not interfere with science, because it belongs to the realm of the spirit not matter.
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#54493 - 05/15/11 08:36 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
You are correct that the basis is "fear", but you extrapolate too far and mistake survivalist-emotional fear with intellectual fear.

Diavolo almost got it right in stating it's evolutionarily beneficial, but it's not religion per se, it's the deference to a tribal leader to make decisions and call the shots. Usually the most powerful got to lead the clan, and usually that meant better survival for that clan. What most people are "hard-wired" to do is delegate the thinking and dealing with unknowns to that leader - it's a heuristic that also saves on brain power.

I think it barely falls short of a need, but there's no denying that human brains are bred to work that way, and it certainly saves a lot of time and energy for them. If they continue to actually survive and procreate, then by definition it's a successful survival strategy.

Understanding that humans work like this is helpful. Judging them inferior for being what they are is pointless, and, I might add, a tad egotistical. Why waste the energy? Simply exploit it. Unless you have a need to believe so ;\)

 Originally Posted By: blackzach
If you doubt that it is the fear of losing " control" and letting go that fuels religious fever and devotion consider this question…
Why would Organized Religion launch crusades to exterminate entire cultures ,population and races?


It's Tosh.0, put 20 seconds on the clock:
More power
More land
More money
More resources
Destroy an enemy
Give the aristocrats something to do
Political gains
Political distraction
Ooh, we're out of time ...

 Originally Posted By: blackzach

It was necessary to rid the world of people who reminded them of what it is like to not live in a world based on fear ,control,rigidity and repression.The righteous will not tolerate being reminded of what they gave up in the way of life, love and happiness to pursue their " faith" .Ironically ....They gave up the one thing they claim they value above anything else.The only thing they hope to reunite in some mystical intangible everlasting bless with their Lord. Their very essence,their soul.


Here (as above) you are confusing faith with power. Most of the time, it's necessary to get rid of people who give the masses hope of not living in fear. Religion is useful as a tool in this context, but in this case the main driver is power.

 Originally Posted By: blackzach
The universal need to believe should be looked at as a mass induced psychosis. A protective mechanism early man evolved after the horror,uncertainty and isolation he must of felt leaving the comfort of the jungle for the open fields towards the unknown.


Your main thrust is basically correct, but I say again - if you acknowledge that humans evolved with this behavior, how can you expect them to be something else?
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#54501 - 05/16/11 05:47 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Autodidact]
Zach_Black Offline
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Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
You are correct that the basis is "fear", but you extrapolate too far and mistake survivalist-emotional fear with intellectual fear.

Diavolo almost got it right in stating it's evolutionarily beneficial, but it's not religion per se, it's the deference to a tribal leader to make decisions and call the shots. Usually the most powerful got to lead the clan, and usually that meant better survival for that clan. What most people are "hard-wired" to do is delegate the thinking and dealing with unknowns to that leader - it's a heuristic that also saves on brain power.

I think it barely falls short of a need, but there's no denying that human brains are bred to work that way, and it certainly saves a lot of time and energy for them. If they continue to actually survive and procreate, then by definition it's a successful survival strategy.

Understanding that humans work like this is helpful. Judging them inferior for being what they are is pointless, and, I might add, a tad egotistical. Why waste the energy? Simply exploit it. Unless you have a need to believe so ;\)

 Originally Posted By: blackzach
If you doubt that it is the fear of losing " control" and letting go that fuels religious fever and devotion consider this question…
Why would Organized Religion launch crusades to exterminate entire cultures ,population and races?


It's Tosh.0, put 20 seconds on the clock:
More power
More land
More money
More resources
Destroy an enemy
Give the aristocrats something to do
Political gains
Political distraction
Ooh, we're out of time ...

 Originally Posted By: blackzach

It was necessary to rid the world of people who reminded them of what it is like to not live in a world based on fear ,control,rigidity and repression.The righteous will not tolerate being reminded of what they gave up in the way of life, love and happiness to pursue their " faith" .Ironically ....They gave up the one thing they claim they value above anything else.The only thing they hope to reunite in some mystical intangible everlasting bless with their Lord. Their very essence,their soul.


Here (as above) you are confusing faith with power. Most of the time, it's necessary to get rid of people who give the masses hope of not living in fear. Religion is useful as a tool in this context, but in this case the main driver is power.

 Originally Posted By: blackzach
The universal need to believe should be looked at as a mass induced psychosis. A protective mechanism early man evolved after the horror,uncertainty and isolation he must of felt leaving the comfort of the jungle for the open fields towards the unknown.


Your main thrust is basically correct, but I say again - if you acknowledge that humans evolved with this behavior, how can you expect them to be something else?


I see your point. Well put.
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#54502 - 05/16/11 06:01 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Autodidact]
Zach_Black Offline
member


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
You are correct that the basis is "fear", but you extrapolate too far and mistake survivalist-emotional fear with intellectual fear.

Diavolo almost got it right in stating it's evolutionarily beneficial, but it's not religion per se, it's the deference to a tribal leader to make decisions and call the shots. Usually the most powerful got to lead the clan, and usually that meant better survival for that clan. What most people are "hard-wired" to do is delegate the thinking and dealing with unknowns to that leader - it's a heuristic that also saves on brain power.

I think it barely falls short of a need, but there's no denying that human brains are bred to work that way, and it certainly saves a lot of time and energy for them. If they continue to actually survive and procreate, then by definition it's a successful survival strategy.

Understanding that humans work like this is helpful. Judging them inferior for being what they are is pointless, and, I might add, a tad egotistical. Why waste the energy? Simply exploit it. Unless you have a need to believe so ;\)

 Originally Posted By: blackzach
If you doubt that it is the fear of losing " control" and letting go that fuels religious fever and devotion consider this question…
Why would Organized Religion launch crusades to exterminate entire cultures ,population and races?


It's Tosh.0, put 20 seconds on the clock:
More power
More land
More money
More resources
Destroy an enemy
Give the aristocrats something to do
Political gains
Political distraction
Ooh, we're out of time ...

 Originally Posted By: blackzach

It was necessary to rid the world of people who reminded them of what it is like to not live in a world based on fear ,control,rigidity and repression.The righteous will not tolerate being reminded of what they gave up in the way of life, love and happiness to pursue their " faith" .Ironically ....They gave up the one thing they claim they value above anything else.The only thing they hope to reunite in some mystical intangible everlasting bless with their Lord. Their very essence,their soul.


Here (as above) you are confusing faith with power. Most of the time, it's necessary to get rid of people who give the masses hope of not living in fear. Religion is useful as a tool in this context, but in this case the main driver is power.

 Originally Posted By: blackzach
The universal need to believe should be looked at as a mass induced psychosis. A protective mechanism early man evolved after the horror,uncertainty and isolation he must of felt leaving the comfort of the jungle for the open fields towards the unknown.


Your main thrust is basically correct, but I say again - if you acknowledge that humans evolved with this behavior, how can you expect them to be something else?


Meh........
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#54503 - 05/16/11 06:06 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Czereda]
Zach_Black Offline
member


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Hello \:\)

 Quote:
I learned a long time ago it is not worth arguing with religious folk.


It is even better for me, I will have the last word.

 Quote:
These very people push into the trusting and delicate minds of children their very own fears and delusions .If faith based mentality was replaced over night with a rational objective approach to reality,Most of these peoples emotional and mental health would crumble in days.


You write as if you had no fears or delusions. Lucky you! You are unique. What about the thought that only your views are rational and people who do not share them are stupid, naive or, worse, mentally disturbed? Is not that a delusion? What makes you different from Christians?

And what is reality? Can we view reality objectively, if it is filtered through our senses and emotions? The environment in which we live, people whom we meet, our biology, our beliefs, our personality, the level of education, even our changing mood, they all shape the way in which we view reality.

All people have fears and illusions. The way in which we view the world is very subjective and religion is a way of perceiving, explaining and judging reality. You would say that judging the facts and altering them is not the same. People who deny scientific facts do it because of their close-mindedness and plain ignorance. Faith does not interfere with science, because it belongs to the realm of the spirit not matter.


You must possess a keen and clever insight into the human psychoanalytic issue that I lack. Thank you for the diagnosis Mr. Freud .


One line posts are Frowned upon here... Morgan


Edited by Morgan (05/16/11 12:20 PM)
Edit Reason: information/warning
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#54511 - 05/16/11 10:32 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
Jason King Offline
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Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
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This post might as well have been titled "No one can ever change their mind". People grow all the time. Can YOU (or I for that matter) grow them? No. The best we can do is offer a thing of value that helps the person break their exigent categories.

And despite what anyone says, we all believe in something . . .

JK

p.s. Zach? Zach Black? Here? On 600? HAILZ BRO!
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#54512 - 05/16/11 10:38 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Autodidact]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
Diavolo almost got it right in stating it's evolutionarily beneficial, but it's not religion per se, it's the deference to a tribal leader to make decisions and call the shots. Usually the most powerful got to lead the clan, and usually that meant better survival for that clan. What most people are "hard-wired" to do is delegate the thinking and dealing with unknowns to that leader - it's a heuristic that also saves on brain power.


Almost ha, I'm almost offended.

I disagree, the deference to a tribal leader is pure Will to Power based and as such, a natural submission towards hierarchy and stands apart from religion. Religion is a glue, providing not only the “us vs them” any group needs to survive, but through the demanding nature of most religious rituals, requiring a commitment of each member which is hard to fake, and in that, affirms their true commitment to the group. It empowers groups and ensures their loyalty and commitment.

It isn't too different from patriotism, at least not when patriotism involves taking up arms when needed.

D.

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#54519 - 05/16/11 11:38 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Not to reiterate what others have already stated, but this subject has already been researched and faith (not necessarily God, per se) was found to be hard-wired into our brains. I don't think it's really an issue of genetics, like so many have extrapolated, but it was originally used as a coping mechanism to understand/explain what appeared to be supernatural phenomenon. It stems from a fear of the unknown, and humans will always be fearful of something. Faith will never go away. The notion of a a 'God' might fade, especially with advances being made in science and physics, but not faith.

Only until much later in our evolutionary history did religion arise out of this faith and become synonymous with power and hierarchy.

Makes me wonder what goes through the minds of other intelligent animals such as dogs, cats, and cetaceans.

The Fallacy of the God Gene
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#54523 - 05/16/11 11:59 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Nemesis]
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
Yeah on futurama Atheism is a religion in the future and they pray to atheismos! lol

I don't really feel faith in anything so its hard for me to believe someone when they say we are all "hard wired" to believe. I think we naturally trust our parents/those who raise us to an extent until some of us have motivation to believe otherwise. This is usually what causes religious faith.

I meet a lot of people who always say "why try, we will just fail"
or they say what I am doing will never work, stupid etc.

To which I ask- do you have a better solution? If not, then why do you criticize this action? For some reason the fear of failure seems to possess a lot of people.

"I'm hungry, but why look for berries, I just won't find them anyway. So I'll sit here and starve to death"

Seems like for these kind of people they need to have faith in order to go on.

"I know God will guide me to where the berries are so I'll keep on searching"

It does seem most people need to think this way for some reason. They can't cope with pessimism.

For me though maybe i'm different because I've already suffered in life. I would say,

"well I'll look for berries anyway, even if I don't find any its better than sitting here and starving".

That's my "faith". It's like I tell people

"if you want to abuse me you'll have to fight for it because I will resist you every bit of the way. It doesn't mean I'll be successful but it is my duty to simply fight it"

most people I meet either allow themselves to be abused without fighting back, or conversely they fight back simply because they have "faith" that they will win.

Maybe my brain is wired wrong or something so I think in an unusual way. But I have noticed the need for faith in 98% of people. It also tends to go along with other irrational traits.

Then we meet the top 2% of people who are actually rational. It's almost as if they must be trained to be rational or else must have some extreme experience to jar them into reality perhaps. I don't know what it is.

I always think of it in the way that people are in between gods and animals. Some more animal (irrational- instinct and emotional driven) some more god (sophrysne, lacking hubris guided by logic reason and learning). This is an old pagan school of thought. We can cultiivate the god or the animal a bit more but I think some of it at least is genetic, some of it cultural etc. so every person tends to be a different combination of god and animal. But the goal of Satanism is to reach god-hood- not to do away with emotions, but to achieve mastery over them so they serve you and the greater good.

I believe in star trek the vulcans are modeled after this greek ideal but they kind of present them as being flawed as a result (not fully human). I don't think so, they feel emotion but don't allow the irrational to over come their behavior.

I believe the less intelligent tend to rely more on instinct and emotion naturally. Which leads to faith.

I assume that most people here are aware of studies that link high I.Q. and education with Atheism and the lower a person's IQ the more "faithful" they are, the more often they go to church etc.

I guess though even I sometimes must lie to myself and have faith in the good as a way to emotionally want to go on. So I understand it but it's not normal for me to think this way.


Edited by Thule (05/16/11 12:03 PM)
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#54527 - 05/16/11 12:16 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Thule]
cash20 Offline
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Registered: 05/05/11
Posts: 6
 Originally Posted By: Thule
Yeah on futurama Atheism is a religion in the future and they pray to atheismos! lol

I don't really feel faith in anything so its hard for me to believe someone when they say we are all "hard wired" to believe. I think we naturally trust our parents/those who raise us to an extent until some of us have motivation to believe otherwise. This is usually what causes religious faith.

I meet a lot of people who always say "why try, we will just fail"
or they say what I am doing will never work, stupid etc.

To which I ask- do you have a better solution? If not, then why do you criticize this action? For some reason the fear of failure seems to possess a lot of people.

"I'm hungry, but why look for berries, I just won't find them anyway. So I'll sit here and starve to death"

Seems like for these kind of people they need to have faith in order to go on.



It does seem most people need to think this way for some reason. They can't cope with pessimism.

For me though maybe i'm different because I've already suffered in life. I would say,

"well I'll look for berries anyway, even if I don't find any its better than sitting here and starving".

That's my "faith". It's like I tell people

"if you want to abuse me you'll have to fight for it because I will resist you every bit of the way. It doesn't mean I'll be successful but it is my duty to simply fight it"

most people I meet either allow themselves to be abused without fighting back, or conversely they fight back simply because they have "faith" that they will win.

Maybe my brain is wired wrong or something so I think in an unusual way. But I have noticed the need for faith in 98% of people. It also tends to go along with other irrational traits.

Then we meet the top 2% of people who are actually rational. It's almost as if they must be trained to be rational or else must have some extreme experience to jar them into reality perhaps. I don't know what it is.

I always think of it in the way that people are in between gods and animals. Some more animal (irrational- instinct and emotional driven) some more god (sophrysne, lacking hubris guided by logic reason and learning). This is an old pagan school of thought. We can cultiivate the god or the animal a bit more but I think some of it at least is genetic, some of it cultural etc. so every person tends to be a different combination of god and animal. But the goal of Satanism is to reach god-hood- not to do away with emotions, but to achieve mastery over them so they serve you and the greater good.

I believe in star trek the vulcans are modeled after this greek ideal but they kind of present them as being flawed as a result (not fully human). I don't think so, they feel emotion but don't allow the irrational to over come their behavior.

I believe the less intelligent tend to rely more on instinct and emotion naturally. Which leads to faith.

I assume that most people here are aware of studies that link high I.Q. and education with Atheism and the lower a person's IQ the more "faithful" they are, the more often they go to church etc.

I guess though even I sometimes must lie to myself and have faith in the good as a way to emotionally want to go on. So I understand it but it's not normal for me to think this way.


I get that. I come across these kind of people day in and day out. They'll say "Don't worry God is in control" or "all things happen for the good". How do you know that? You don't. They believe in there little universes that in some way they are on a mission for some higher power of purpose and reason.

 Originally Posted By: Thule
"I know God will guide me to where the berries are so I'll keep on searching"


It's like it's encoded in to there brains and most will never see that cause of there brainwashed minds. I was one of them until some so called prophet said your brother will be healed of his handicap I believed...I truly did and 2 years later dead from double pneumonia. Maybe that what it takes some sort of bash on the head and say look here this is where you are headed. This the cards you dealt dealt deal with it.

It's funny that you bring up the Vulcans I've had that thought at the back of my mind for a while. If you had no emotion what would you do?
_________________________
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#54533 - 05/16/11 01:02 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
A lot of people need to believe in something greater than them that is in control for their own sanity. They can't handle the cold hard truth of reality; we are essentially "alone" - the Universe is chaos and no one (no god at least) gives a shit, when we die that it, show's over.

The slave religions are labeled such for a reason. They are comprised of slaves who need a master. Taking control of one's own life, for them, is scary indeed.

Fuck 'em.
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#54534 - 05/16/11 01:19 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: cash20]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
Faith per se has always been conflated with a wholesale swallowing of metaphysical notions that in themselves would have been dismissed as superstitious garbage. At least in my book. Most of the time, such conflations seem justified, especially when the devout spend so much time shoehorning all the unpleasant articles of faith into their paradigm.

It can be compared unfavourably to the stock package sales that were partially to blame for the recent financial crisis. You pack two good shares in with three decent and five bad ones, thereby magically raising the value of the entire package beyond the sum of the shares' value. Same way with xtianity. Just look at all the nonsense it contains, not to mention the glaring discrepancies. Most sensible xtians I know cut away the bits they don't like and stick with that, even though this can be construed as heresy and in principle the same as every other asshole with an agenda who uses the bible for his own ends.

Common to all the faith-based religions, however, is how evil, base, detestable and horrible everything we are and know is. It has to be. Otherwise, why should people reach for the divine? There has to be a pie in the sky.

The total absence of faith in the otherworldly and divine is the single most threatening conviction to the Abrahamic religions, not to mention the plethora of normative philosophies and political dogma that stress the importance of renouncing the material and human in favour of the idealistic and the altruistic.

In short, the faith that I despise is the blanket condemnation of everything that smacks of materialism, natural instincts, Will to Power, self-centred weltanschauung and self-love. It rejects Man. It makes me wonder how the xtians can rationalize the love their deity has for them. He made them imperfect and put them through hell for being bad, then killed his own son to redeem them. If anyone else had done this, they'd be locked up. But no, this is 'love', apparently.

If Joe Schmoe wants to worship his garden gnomes and ascribe all positive events to the auspices of those idols, he can knock himself out. He may even be an otherwise decent guy. Mad as a three-legged gerbil on speed, but nice.

But don't sell me belief in that piece of pastry waiting for me in the afterlife. The lights at the end of that particular tunnel have been switched off in accordance with a change in administration. An administration that stresses self-reliance, self-love and the total abandonment of moot concepts like guilt, shame and fear of the unknown.

To my eyes, it's not the faithless that are in opposition to the faithfuls' ideal paradigm, but the faithful that are in opposition to the faithless' embrace of human nature. No greater humanists than we.
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#54539 - 05/16/11 02:12 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The problem with faith and belief is that they are so ingrained in our nature that we more than often not even realize we are subject to them. I read the remark that IQ is a factor to believing or not but I'd say that isn't true. While it might be quite correct that on average more people with a higher IQ are atheists, I met enough “high-IQers” to know that even when they might not believe in god and often look down upon those that do, at the same time, they happily believe in ghost, reincarnation or stuff like aroma-therapy.

Even the idea that those that not believe in god are therefor more rational or more logical and thus somehow better is an act of faith. I often see atheists having more faith in science than Christians in god. I think if we'd analyze our thinking, we'd be surprised how much is based upon belief and faith and not on rational thought or logic.

True, many religious are funky monkeys and quite unpleasant unless you are part of their tribe but the same goes for non-faith based tribes like socialists, communists or even satanists for that matter. Quite often god is simply replaced by "Truth" but the rest of the behavior remains as it was.

D.

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#54542 - 05/16/11 02:29 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Diavolo]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
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Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
Oh, I'll grant that the ad populem is bad regardless of who sends it up the flagpole, eagerly awaiting salutes from all and sundry. That faith and belief are in us like every other human impulse is also beyond question. My only point was to liken faith in the supernatural with self-loathing.
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#54549 - 05/16/11 04:50 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
FAITH and BELIEF can indeed lead to the idiocy we see in the name of religion when allowed to go to extremes, but without "faith and belief," we rob ourselves of PERSONAL tools for the betterment of our own lives.

Now, many here claim the title SATANIST and guard it jealously. Nothing wrong with that. I AM a Satanist and have been one (faithfully) for nigh on 40 years. OH NO! Jake uttered the word FAITHfully... yes. I've been faithful to my PERSONAL philosophical "drug of choice" for forty years. Why? I BELIEVE on a personal level that the philosophy of Satanism as I know and accept it, enhances MY life and MY ability to thrive in the world.

Would I bristle if someone said a was wrong just because they have a book that says I am and that their invisible friend in the sky says so? No. Does my BELIEF in myself as the key component of my personal satisfaction with life, or my FAITH in my decision that my BELIEF in myself has helped me succeed make me a believer in the great god OOH BLA DEE and all he can do for me? Of course not. My faith and my belief are based on tangibles... personal history and demonstrated success.

Where we run into problems is when we ascribe FAITH and BELIEF to things we simply feel, with no proof of reality and no discernible means of gauging the authenticity and/or reality of our faith/belief. This is where Theism simply just doesn't compute for me and others as well, and not only in the case of Christianity.

"God is great and God is good" is a nice little platitude, but what do we have that can PROVE that point. Falling back on the Christian last gasp, "Well... how can you PROVE God ISN'T" is equally unprovable as the inevitable comeback, "Well... how can you prove God IS?" No matter how much rhetoric or how much speculation follows, when faith and belief are externalized, metrics, quantifiable limits and other devices of measutement go out the window.

This is where I return to my set point that FAITH and BELIEF are simply personal values and can be applied personally, but not so much universally. You can get some feel of reality, at least on a personal level, and while that may not be enough for a Theist of any stripe, as a Satanist, I know that my self satisfaction doesn't come from the recognition of others, but knowing that I'm living my life as is satisfying and justifiable to ME. I can see what I've accomplished in my life and pretty much tell if my faith and belief in myself has been justified. I don't need A BOOK OF LIFE for some god to judge my value or some scale for animistic deities to weigh my heart.

Would I be the same as a Christian? Personally yes. I think that what I have accomplished in my life I would have accomplished as a Christian, Muslim or Jew, given the same opportunities. But there would be a part of me that I personally think might be compromised, making me forever less than I COULD be, as I would be enamored with the belief that the answers I sought to get to where I am, and the skills I needed to get me here came from "out there," and not "in here."
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#54555 - 05/16/11 05:28 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Jake999]
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
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I am a very skeptical person, but I must trust things people tell me when they seem reasonable. Faith is thus necessary. We can't possibly test the validity of every assumption. There is not enough time in one's life.

However blind faith is the problem. Believing something despite evidence to the contrary. Or the inability to apply a little scrutiny to your own beliefs (i.e. see contradictions).
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#54572 - 05/16/11 10:09 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Autodidact]
Ghostly1 Offline
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Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
I agree with alot of the information explained here, in many varying posts. But I wondered while reading this if we had the opportunity to scientifically, or at least under controlled conditions see what would happen if we placed a number of young children in a closed environment. Meaning, Cut off from society as a whole, but fed, and taught how to read and write. No cultural information would be given, nor would they be taught about the history of humanity.

Would they discover a "God" on their own?

I dont think they would. It simply isnt a necessity. Im sure as they grew and aged, they would ask those questions.

"Where do trees come from? "

"Why were we born?"

"Who made the planet?"

You know, intelligent but ignorant questions all children eventually ask, but its the picture painted by those who raise them which govern those beliefs. The stronger the belief by the parent, usually the children follow suit. You can see it in alot of religious backgrounds.

I didnt think much of God or Jesus when I was made to sit in church every Sunday growing up. Seemed pretty boring. I would rather be playing outside, riding my bike and eating candy. The spiritual side of it never entered my thoughts much at all. It didnt seem as important as whats for dinner, and will we be going to the beach, park, carnival, etc. Life as a child for me, was about experiencing things. Pretty Satanic, just trying to have fun, enjoy myself. It was only when I reached my teens where things became more serious. But even then I had questions which blind faith could not answer to my satisfaction.

Its been my experience to note that religion acts alot like government. Setting rules for parishioners to follow. Taxes, and tribute to pay to the church for the privilege to sit among the pews. Guilt, like pain is a strong motivator, so it was wise for politicians to keep in the good graces of the local clergy to sway the peoples favor, and that was usually enough to maintain control. A more modern enigma is North Korea, where worshiping the "great leader" is the accepted religious practice.

Stratification would maintain order, without the input of any religious organization putting their two cents in. It may not seem fair to those on the bottom, but its would be at least natural.
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#54594 - 05/17/11 07:12 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Ghostly1]
Jason King Offline
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believe it or not this thought experiment actually was carried out . . . by the first few generations of Homo Sapiens. Culture is a natural byproduct of humanity, and would develop quickly, even in such a literal scenario. And subsequent to that, we would find that those who were capable of "answering" unanswerable questions vis a vis origin and meaning, while at the same time tying this to a system of valuation would gain momentum within the new culture. Not quite the stratification you were hoping for, but a more pragmatic analysis to be sure.

JK
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#54602 - 05/17/11 10:55 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Jason King]
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
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It was done before. Some king in England isolated children and did not put them in contact with any speech to find the original language. They never developed any complex language. There were also children raised by wolves historically. They ran around on all fours acting like dogs.

Culture takes many generations to develop. It is not like a child in pure isolation will suddenly write the Bible and build a church. It takes a progression of many hundreds or thousands of years.

We can see also there are many people in the world who have been isolated from the rest of humanity for thousands of years. Mostly they have something we could call religion, though it usually doesn't resemble Christianity (which is why they need to send their missionaries to convert the savages).

I do know there were many native tribes that did not believe in a god and the concept was totally foreign to them. So God is not inherent in humans. However I think all people believe in spirits or some unseen reality. I don't think this is psychological, but because there IS an unseen reality which defies our explanation. I have had many strange experiences myself which can only be explained through esoteric manners.

Most pagan traditions around the world are suprisingly similar though. Most native tribes believe in the "great spirit" for example.


Edited by Thule (05/17/11 10:56 AM)
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#54604 - 05/17/11 11:06 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Thule]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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 Originally Posted By: Thule
There were also children raised by wolves historically. They ran around on all fours acting like dogs.


Wolves usually don't nurture their dinner. As far as I know, these stories are either based upon legends (Romulus/Remus) or are just false.

D.

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#54605 - 05/17/11 11:19 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Jason King]
Ghostly1 Offline
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Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
Im sure it had, I just didnt hear about it. Very interesting...

On a side note about missionaries. It has been told to me, that there are only a finite number of slots in heaven for the Mormons, and Jehovah's if I recall. The real number they use escapes me at the moment but I know the rumor to be true.

If space is indeed limited, why recruit? Why convert someone else who might eventually over pace your progress and take your slot in heaven? Some masochistic competition? Seems rather silly to be overloading the life raft when you are yourself halfway out of the damn thing.

I dont see Jihads grabbing the explosives off another while the fuse is lit in competition. Maybe they dont realize they are all competing for the same 72 virgins.....
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#54614 - 05/17/11 01:43 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Diavolo]
Thule Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 68
No there are several historical cases. There was one recently in the soviet union of a boy abandoned by parents and raised by dogs. There was a case a few hundred years ago in France. Several of them all together.

I have seen on a nature show where one of the lion mothers took one of the babies from the prey it killed and nursed it and raised it but eventually it wasn't able to protect it and the other lions killed it.

Wolves do similar if they find a child maybe they will raise it or not.

Humans do the same with animals. It happens sometimes.

It seems mostly only dogs and wolves that raise humans. They have a similar social structure in many ways.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/250596/ukranian_girl_raised_by_dogs/
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#54616 - 05/17/11 01:56 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Thule]
Diavolo Offline
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I don't doubt there are great parents that lock their kids in a kennel with dogs but I don't buy it that they are solely raised by dogs, let alone wolves.

Since this thread is about “belief”, did you ever wonder about the menu of wolves? How long do you think any human would survive on raw meat or do you think momma wolf would cook it for them and maybe prepare some vegetables too?

D.

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#54617 - 05/17/11 02:02 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Diavolo]
Diavolo Offline
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Btw, some quick research showed that you're looking at a video of a 23 year old girl showing what she learned from the dogs she lived with between age 3 and 8.

I don't know about others but I am surely skeptical.

D.

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#54625 - 05/17/11 07:50 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Diavolo]
Ghostly1 Offline
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Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
I doubt real wolves, and not from a fairy tale would sooner attack, and eat such a defenseless animal that is man when he is a baby. Wolves dont change diapers, and they certainly wouldn't defend an infant from lets say a hungry bear.

There has to be some embellishment being done to the story.

It wouldn't be good press without some embellishment.
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#54626 - 05/17/11 09:05 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Ghostly1]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
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Actually, it's just the Jehova's that believe space in Heaven is limited. As far as I know, Mormons don't hold any beliefs like that.

The reason is for the recruitment is that it is a contest. The more people you convert, the better your chances of receiving a spot in heaven. So basically it is a pyramid scam, without a payout. Unless of course you count the money.

And D, you certainly aren't the only person skeptical of such a fantastical tale. Humans raised by wolves, I really doubt it. Sure, there's a chance in the 175,000 years of human history that it happened at least once. But there is just as good a chance that I will wake up next to Anna Kournikova tomorrow morning.
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#54628 - 05/17/11 09:18 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Ghostly1 Offline
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Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
I just find it absurd, that people of intelligence..... real intelligence, can hold these beliefs in their head, and still follow modern scientific thinking.

I had a semblance of respect for Glenn Beck, after finding out who he was when Japan had that earthquake. He did a wonderful review of the problems faced there in a clear and concise manner. Then I find out he is a new Mormon. And I am left wondering where this went wrong.

It has to be a matter of circumstance for people to just fall into line with dogma and blind faith.

Ive had my moments of doubt and concern, and the last place I turned to was God, religion, or clergy. All I ever got from them was guilt, empty promises, and more questions.

To me it wasnt a matter of "belief" but asking myself where I went wrong.

As for waking up next to Anna, Id much rather Tiger Woods Ex. Just as hot, lots more money. But she is rather bitter over men id imagine. And hardly open to consorting with a sinister type.
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#54641 - 05/18/11 02:35 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
Zach_Black Offline
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Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
 Originally Posted By: blackzach
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Hello \:\)

 Quote:
I learned a long time ago it is not worth arguing with religious folk.


It is even better for me, I will have the last word.

 Quote:
These very people push into the trusting and delicate minds of children their very own fears and delusions .If faith based mentality was replaced over night with a rational objective approach to reality,Most of these peoples emotional and mental health would crumble in days.


You write as if you had no fears or delusions. Lucky you! You are unique. What about the thought that only your views are rational and people who do not share them are stupid, naive or, worse, mentally disturbed? Is not that a delusion? What makes you different from Christians?

And what is reality? Can we view reality objectively, if it is filtered through our senses and emotions? The environment in which we live, people whom we meet, our biology, our beliefs, our personality, the level of education, even our changing mood, they all shape the way in which we view reality.

All people have fears and illusions. The way in which we view the world is very subjective and religion is a way of perceiving, explaining and judging reality. You would say that judging the facts and altering them is not the same. People who deny scientific facts do it because of their close-mindedness and plain ignorance. Faith does not interfere with science, because it belongs to the realm of the spirit not matter.


You must possess a keen and clever insight into the human psychoanalytic issue that I lack. Thank you for the diagnosis Mr. Freud .


One line posts are Frowned upon here... Morgan


This is a response to Morgan. I am aware that one line posts are frowned upon here. Which is why I specifically made the reply to Czereda two sentences that occupy two lines. What am I missing here? Does a 'one liner' actually mean more than two sentences ? How many words must be used in a post/comment to avoid getting a instruction/warning about posting a ' one liner'?

This to me represents a 'one liner'.
" One line posts are Frowned upon here... Morgan"

That was one sentence and occupied one line. Granted I am aware you are a moderator and may not be subjected to the same rules and regulations put upon non-moderators. But clarification and specifics would really help me here.

I am going to assume that from now on I should type out long replies. Even if I can sum up my thoughts and feelings with in a couple sentences.

I am not trying to deliberately be a smart ass. Merely trying to be clear on the definition of a 'one-liner' if indeed your post consist of more than one line and one sentence.
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#54642 - 05/18/11 02:52 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Zach Black
If you look at the two replies you made before the two line post, they were one line posts, one with just the word "meh!".

A lot of effort goes into enforcing rules like banning one line posts, this is one of the many reasons why the standard on 600Club is high intellectually and academically.


Edited by mabon2010 (05/18/11 02:54 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling
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#54643 - 05/18/11 02:59 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Zach_Black Offline
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Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
A lot of people need to believe in something greater than them that is in control for their own sanity. They can't handle the cold hard truth of reality; we are essentially "alone" - the Universe is chaos and no one (no god at least) gives a shit, when we die that it, show's over.

The slave religions are labeled such for a reason. They are comprised of slaves who need a master. Taking control of one's own life, for them, is scary indeed.

Fuck 'em.


I agree entirely with this Six. A lot of people seem to have this need. It was pointed out in this thread that people are genetically predisposed with this need . I disagree. My only real reference is based on my personal experience and a few authors that have studied this.
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#54646 - 05/18/11 03:18 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: mabon2010]
Zach_Black Offline
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Registered: 05/14/11
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Loc: San Diego, California
Ahh......I see now. I just assumed the comment was directed at that particular post/comment . My bad Morgan. Nice job in not only correcting me Mabon but seriously placing your nose centered in the 'bum' of the 600 club.

But in all seriousness Mabon. Thanks for pointing that out. I overlooked that. I thought 'one liners' applied to creating threads. Not just responding in comments. Now I know . Oh and Mabon, I put a napkin in your inbox. You got something brown on your nose again .


Edited by blackzach (05/18/11 03:19 AM)
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#54653 - 05/18/11 10:14 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
Hey Zach,

Just a point of clarification. Obviously on some things a one line comment is appropriate. The rule exists to weed out folks who routinely post comments like "oh yeah I agree with so and so, well said" and things to that effect. The general idea is that if one doesn't have something of value to add to a conversation then it's better to simply have fewer comments on a thread. I like this idea quite a bit as it generally requires people to think about the topic before adding something to it.

Now, so I can avoid being hypocritical, I'll comment on your post \:\)

I agree with the general sentiment and will add that religion, in addition to all you've stated, also adds a dimension of stability, hierarchy, and a sense of belonging to folks who need that sort of thing.

I don't think we can really argue that people as a whole like a predictable and systemic approach to life. People like rules and they like to think that abiding by them will prove their value to society and to their religion. People also have a tendency to organize their personal lives into repeatable patterns because there is a comfort in a lack of chaos. Religion provides a systemic approach to understanding the universe for those who are inclined toward belief. The universe is a huge vast, dark, cold, scary, unknown place and by saying that their god created it allows some to believe that this inherently means some sort of mastery over it (ie god won't kill his faithful flock... those who really, really, really abide his word).

Many folk I've encountered on the LHP do the same things with academia. They organize their thoughts into comfortable patterns of 'knowledge' so that they can assume a greater mastery over something without truly understanding that what we really 'know' is just representative of an overview... a summary of a few thousand years.

In the same way that a snake will burrow and a bird will nest, a human will seek to add order/comfort to his/her world. Right hand path religions, for reasons unfathomable to most who will read this, provide that order and security to a larger balance of the world population (reinforced daily by the corporate controlled media - different subject, but I threw it in there).

Very few of us embrace the darkness and seek to look out beyond the curtain.

And Mabon:
Policing of the boards is the sole domain of the moderators (those with green names). I would use caution in presuming to speak for them.

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#54656 - 05/18/11 11:09 AM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Zach_Black]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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 Originally Posted By: blackzach
I agree entirely with this Six. A lot of people seem to have this need. It was pointed out in this thread that people are genetically predisposed with this need . I disagree. My only real reference is based on my personal experience and a few authors that have studied this.


I think we are genetically biased towards belief and those that don't, are mutations and not the norm. Now before we all start to feel happy about being splendidly different, I'd dare to say that those that truly don't suffer from belief, not necessarily limited to god, are rare.

If we'd all look back into our own past, it wouldn't take much effort to find periods we did believe some bullshit, especially as children, and although we have the potential to break free of many, we might never break free of all. Maybe to a degree, belief ensures our survival, if only mentally.

About the famous one-liner rule. As has been said, it is to avoid an overkill of "affirmation" replies and to stimulate more effort in replying. I occasionally limit myself to a one-liner too but try to avoid it if possible.

The funny thing about humans and rules is that there is no middle road; either you're strict and things go as intended or you're tolerant and they'll screw everything.

D.

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#54682 - 05/18/11 09:58 PM Re: The Need to Believe [Re: Diavolo]
paolo sette Offline
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Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I think we are genetically biased towards belief and those that don't, are mutations and not the norm.


Belief absolutely belongs to the one who has it: it is neither communicable nor transferable nor subject to partition. It is itself, its own authority, its own witness, and does not require anybody's confirmation. It is sufficient unto itself. No amount of skeptical argument can refute it because skepticism has to assume it: it takes for granted the existence of the skeptic.

With all the cunning of ratiocination, the skeptic refutes individual identity. The skeptic only succeeds only when he attains Knowledge through Intelligence, but he is denying his own skepticism; for, he is upholding Knowledge.

Belief--I have none.

Sedit and Shiva...The-Dark-One
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