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#54870 - 05/22/11 05:22 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Zophos]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Zophos
Myatt's bogus understanding of Heraclitus.

Bogus?

Your evidence for this opinion of yours is what precisely?

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#54871 - 05/22/11 06:07 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Zophos]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Zophos
Again, you fall into the trap of applying science to philosophy. Philosophy goes beyond science because it has the freedom to take positions and ideas without any limitations that science must create to be valid.

You suppose Forms do not exist, but to Plato they did exist, and since this debate is about Plato's philosophy against that of another philosophy about the Forms, if they exist or do not exist is not relevant to the topic in hand.

Plato applied properties to Forms, one that they were unchanging, thus running against the idea of Heraclitus that all the Universe is changing.

It is relevant to the discussion to consider that if a Particular of an object in the Universe is dependent upon its Form but is changing it must logically be influenced by the Form, thus the Form must be changing to cause the Particular to change, thus raising an issue of the validity of the property of a Form being a constant unchanging thing.
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Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54876 - 05/22/11 09:47 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3888
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Holy shit mabon, do you EVER know wtf you are talking about? I am starting to think you must get sexual pleasure from the sound your keyboard makes, and migraines from devoting any thought at all to anything, ever.

Philosophy is 'the love of knowledge'

Science MEANS 'knowledge', etymologically speaking.

Collections of unsupported, baseless assertions such as your usual fare are by no means 'philosophy'. Plato isn't like 'luciferianism', you can't just make him up as you go along.

Just thought it would be fun to point that out, which really has nothing to do with anything other than to show you missed the entire point and context of the post you were responding to.
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#54878 - 05/22/11 09:52 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Dan_Dread]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Dan_Dread

Both Luciferianism and Plato are philosophies.

If you require me to debate you the difference between science and philosophy I am game.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54880 - 05/22/11 10:00 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Mabon my friend, there is a step between information and conclusion which is called understanding. I've mentioned many times before you seem to skip this quite essential step and rush toward conclusions.

What you fail to see is that it doesn't improve your credibility nor the actual worth of your conclusions.

D.

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#54881 - 05/22/11 10:22 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3888
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Looks like philosophy can be added to the list of words mabon doesn't understand, right along with 'axiom', 'thinking' and 'introspection'

Here's a hint mabon - Philosophy, like science, must be rational and internally coherent, by definition. You are anything but a philosopher, and the incoherent mess you describe as 'luciferianism' is anything but a philosophy.

Now you may return to misunderstanding the on topic posts, because this isn't going anywhere.
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ideological vandal

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#54885 - 05/22/11 11:58 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Dan_Dread]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Diavolo
I know the steps Knowledge ... Understanding ... Conclusion.
I dealt with this via a video that was talked about at 600Club on a previous occasion..

@ Dan_Dread
Originally this topic was about ONA sources then dealt with Plato and Heraclitus, not Luciferianism.

If you want to debate difference between science and philosophy then create a new topic and I am game for a debate with you.


Edited by mabon2010 (05/22/11 12:01 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54886 - 05/22/11 12:15 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
You know the steps but simply don't take them.

Your behaviour is quite disturbing, posting links from something you just learned is not displaying an understanding and certainly not conclusive.

Do me a favour and read every fucking text you came to post and try to GET them instead of getting in endless discussion where you'll surely draw the shortest straw.

Take a break and do some actual study, go read a book.
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Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#54888 - 05/22/11 12:27 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Dimitri]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Dimitri
Which brings me back to the original purpose of this topic.
I asked for original sources for the ONA so I can read them.


Edited by mabon2010 (05/22/11 12:28 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54890 - 05/22/11 01:06 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
As long as the subject of ONA source material has been raised, I would ask the same question today that I first posed [without an answer] to Myatt/Long/Brown back in the '80s: What is your source for the "Nine Angles" other than my "Ceremony of the Nine Angles" in the Satanic Rituals, and what is your explanation of the significance of those angles?

Back then M/L/B fell all over himself denying any ripping-off from the "C9A", but as I recall never cited any other source, nor explained why "nine angles" should have any particular other significance.

So does the "ONA" name have any actual significance original to it, and if so what?
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#54892 - 05/22/11 01:47 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
Which brings me back to the original purpose of this topic.
I asked for original sources for the ONA so I can read them.

Already given by Sinistermoon, retrace your steps.
It is also in my experience that most of their material can be easily found when you search them on the internet. With a little luck (and if you manage your own act..which I pretty much doubt), you might be able to come in contact with a few interesting people from ONA.


 Quote:
As long as the subject of ONA source material has been raised, I would ask the same question today that I first posed [without an answer] to Myatt/Long/Brown back in the '80s: What is your source for the "Nine Angles" other than my "Ceremony of the Nine Angles" in the Satanic Rituals, and what is your explanation of the significance of those angles?

Back then M/L/B fell all over himself denying any ripping-off from the "C9A", but as I recall never cited any other source, nor explained why "nine angles" should have any particular other significance.

So does the "ONA" name have any actual significance original to it, and if so what?

As far as I'm concerned, the message is far more interesting/important than the "original" source. You might disagree with it, but does it really matter that the composing of the message was somewhere in a cafι or some dark cellar?

Perhaps it is needed to get a better understanding of its history and message. Why would you care?


Edited by Dimitri (05/22/11 01:56 PM)
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Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#54893 - 05/22/11 02:01 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
What is your source for the "Nine Angles" other than my "Ceremony of the Nine Angles" in the Satanic Rituals, and what is your explanation of the significance of those angles?

Good question, and thanks for bringing it up - since it's a matter which has been raised many times in the past two decades. There is a whole section on the ONA website devoted to this, under the heading (surprise, surprise) The Nine Angles.

http://www.nineangles.info/o9a-nine-angles-notes.html

http://www.nineangles.info/nine-angles-texts-part1.pdf

http://www.nineangles.info/nine-angles-texts-part2.pdf

The answer - or answers - are given in various ONA texts there and elsewhere, from one of which this is a quote -

 Quote:
My actual reason for first using the term Nine Angles, some time before this discovery in Arabic texts, to describe the traditional “order” I had inherited from my Lady Master, was essentially to do with my other research – since my late teenage years - into tensorial mathematical representations of Space-Time, for I had already, due to my own Occult researches, concluded that in order to rationally understand magick, one must posit a bifurcation of Time itself, something I rudimentary described in the first section of early editions of my Emanations of Urania MS, coining the term Cliology to describe this rational apprehension. After my initiation – and after about two weeks of learning and study with my Lady Master and her daughter – I sensed a similarity between this research of mine, and their aural traditions regarding the Septenary System and the Tree of Wyrd (described by a double tetrahedron), and it seemed to me then that I might be able to find some mathematical connection between the seven plus two emanations of the Septenary (described in one short traditional MS by a double tetrahedron, each of which had nine mathematical angles), and the Tensor which had nine non-zero symmetric components and which formed one part of an equation I had used to connect normal (causal) Space-Time with that new type of non-causal Space which I then had tentatively called the acausal.

Hence the descriptive name I choose for the tradition I had been Initiated into and which traditions I had inherited: the Order of Nine Angles, signifying as that name did not only the basic, and inherited tradition of seven plus two emanations (the Septenary), but also my own theory regarding causal and acausal Space and Time.”


Myatt here refers to a tensorial representation of space-time - a nexion - which has nine non-zero elements.

The Arabic text is Al-Kitab al-Aflak and the explanation is that the nine angles represent what Arabic philosophy referred to as Azal, Dhar and Zamal.

That is, that Arabic alchemy and Arabic mystical philosophy - which Myatt (oops, I meant Anton Long) was familiar with - has a nine fold system. Nine emanations of the one, the one (the unity) described as Allah.

Also, it should be remembered that *angles* refers to *dimensions* as explained thus,

 Quote:
the term "angle" as used by the ONA esoterically and fundamentally means one type of, one particular species of, a Cosmic dimension – as opposed to the ordinary type of dimension we are familiar with in the causal continuum, and which causal dimensions can be re-presented mathematically and which causal dimensions form the basis for the causal science of Physics.

In causal terms, an angle is simply a convenient geometric construct – an abstraction based upon the linearity of causal Time, on the simplicity of causal cause-and-effect, and an abstraction which can be re-presented in Euclidean (two-dimensional causal) geometry by the meeting or intersection of two lines, and also re-presented in spherical (three-dimensional causal) geometry, and Riemannian-type (four-dimensional causal, or metrical) geometry. All these types of causal "angles" are inert; mere causal abstractions, even when we are describing that causal-angle which re-presents causal Time, because this type of Time (the causal type) is simply a physical (lifeless, un-numinous) cause-and-effect.

In complete contrast, an acausal "angle" is some-thing that lives, that has or which can be imbued with, life: that is, it has or it can be imbued with acausal energy. Or expressed another way, an acausal "angle" re-presents or can be used to re-present, acausal energy, and thus also re-presents the very essence of Life, of what animates physical matter and makes that matter "alive".

Source - http://antonlong.wordpress.com/2010/11/10/the-nine-angles-beyond-the-causal-continuum/


But no doubt this is mythos to many.

As for the Arabic text mentioned, I quote a recent reply on a forum for ONA members -

 Quote:
" There are hundreds of thousands of untranslated Arabic manuscripts in libraries, mosques and Islamic schools all over the world. There are prolly an equal number of printed Arabic books never translated never mind cataloged in the west.

One library - in Cairo (Al Azhar) - visited by my source contained tens of thousands of Islamic manuscripts and a much vaster number of books almost unknown in the west.

According to this (reliable) source - there are libraries in India and Pakistan and Iran which also contain tens of thousands of Islamic manuscripts never translated from the Arabic, with many of these never having been cataloged in book form with the catalog published in *the west*."


Here's another quote about the origin of the ONA use of the term nine angles -

 Quote:
Can we talk about the origin of the term the Order of Nine Angles? Was that taken from another, pre-existing, American based, group, as some people have surmised and claimed?

Not to my knowledge. According to my sources, the term was taken from a medieval alchemical manuscript, written in Arabic, and entitled Al-Kitab al-Aflak. What many of those involved with esoteric matters outside the ONA do not know is that many of the Arab alchemists, from whom many of the Western alchemists learned their trade or gained their knowledge from, considered there were nine emanations, or angles, and that there were different forms of Time – azal and dhar and zamal – for example. Myatt studied such matters, and developed, extended, these ideas, and gave them a modern slant. Hence causal, acausal, nine angles, and so on.

Source - Questions About David Myatt – An Interview with Richard Stirling


Edited by SinisterMoon (05/22/11 02:21 PM)
Edit Reason: added quote

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#54894 - 05/22/11 02:10 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
You suppose Forms do not exist, but to Plato they did exist...


No, they didn't. The Platonic Forms are the perfect, non-material representations of things - i.e. Platonic Form of cat, Platonic Form of stupid etc. etc. I will admit that I am no expert on Plato and/or his philosophy but I do know that he never claimed or believed the Forms actually existed.

 Quote:
...and since this debate is about Plato's philosophy against that of another philosophy about the Forms, if they exist or do not exist is not relevant to the topic in hand.


Actually, it is relevant. If you don't understand the philosohpy of one of the people you are contrasting philosophies with then you really have no business doing it in the first place.


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No gods. No masters.

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#54896 - 05/22/11 02:24 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Side note.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ORDER-NINE-ANGLES-Sa...=item255f5443a3

Seems that Aquino has been giving us valuable information in various posts for free.

http://cgi.ebay.com/GROCERY-GURU-ANTON-L...=item588de18c55

The seller is selling a bunch of LaVey's artwork. I forgot who wondered/asked what happened to it.

M

ps. I was wrong upon further inquiry it is just Stanton coping the original of LaVey's work.


Edited by Morgan (05/22/11 02:26 PM)
Edit Reason: added ps
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#54897 - 05/22/11 02:43 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Morgan]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida

 Originally Posted By: Morgan

Ah, where's volume 2? Didn't they have time to fake that as well? \:\)

It's possibly interesting that such *ONA items* are now not only being advertised but also seem to sell. Suckers!

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