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#54898 - 05/22/11 03:13 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Morgan]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Mugs pay through the nose for Ixaxaar on Ebay like they do for anything Occult orientated, you see, the materialists like to collect leather bound books and order them on their posh bookshelves in OCD fashion.

The Order of Nine Angles books are free online but Lulu.com sells them in hardback and paperback, but at extortionate prices. The Heresy Press is back now I think, and it is best to buy ONA books and the excellent Musick from there methinks, I have Naos and Codex Særus and I'm keeping those, cost me about forty quid for both including delivery, but that was from Lulu.com when The Heresy Press was down.

I thought about it and invested in an electronic pdf. reader. Hence, I am selling most all my books except the Nietzsche ones.

I have ONA literature on mine as well as Ixaxaar, and other naughtiness. You can go anywhere with a pdf. reader, you can even read in the dark, in any comfortable position you like, or go to the woods late and read as many pdf. as you liek without having to choose beforehand and lugging your expensive books around that could get wet or otherwise ruined, if nocturnal hermeticism your thing that is.

I recommend Mabon read the old 80's MS, they aren't hard to come by and there isn't even major faults in the supposed "mutated" versions, because it's not doctrine but something to let you figure things out for yourself. Observing the effects of the ONA in Nexions is another way to view the cause as when an idea moves from one to the minds of others, it evolves and this is why change is a good thing and why the current state is the only state of the ONA. I am not speaking for others but there you go. My opinion.

Surely others got the same eye opener as I did insofar as The Order of Nine Angles advocating, in a sinister way, "how to think" rather than any kind of "what to think" which is what I got, and still get from it as a whole. Quite different than a religious memetic virus and instead something which forces one to think for oneself, because, as far as I have realised, every ONA MS has a MS that is it's opposite.
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#54899 - 05/22/11 03:53 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ 6Satan6Archist6
Theory of Forms was created by Plato. The famous Allegory of the Cave to support his idea of the Forms was also by Plato. If Plato did not think the Forms existed then he would not have put forward his theory, and we would not be talking about them.

RE: ONA sources
Thanks to those that provided them.


Edited by mabon2010 (05/22/11 03:55 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
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#54901 - 05/22/11 04:42 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Morgan]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Morgan

The seller is selling a bunch of LaVey's artwork. I forgot who wondered/asked what happened to it.

M

ps. I was wrong upon further inquiry it is just Stanton coping the original of LaVey's work.


Yeah... Stanton's been busy again.

LaVey doodled A LOT. He and I would sit in restaurants waiting for dinner to be served and doodle. We were at he McArthur Park restaurant in San Francisco one night with him, me, Tari and Cookie all doodling on our place settings, just having a good time. The manager came over when they delivered our food and asked if we would sign the doodles and if he could have them. We thought nothing of it, so we gave them to him.

Next time we came in, he had them framed and hanging on the wall. I dunno how long they stayed there. I haven't been back there since.

The artwork of Dr. LaVey's that I was wondering about were his wonderful oil paintings that were hanging throughout the house. Some of them were quite bizarre and stunning. I'd hate to think they're just sitting in an attic somewhere.
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#54903 - 05/22/11 04:46 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
Theory of Forms was created by Plato.


Really?! Well thanks for the enlightenment, professor.

 Quote:
The famous Allegory of the Cave to support his idea of the Forms was also by Plato.


You need to slow down so I can take better notes. So, you're telling me that Plato also wrote The Allegory of the Cave? Wow, your knowledge of philosophy (that is in no way rudimentary) astounds me.

 Quote:
If Plato did not think the Forms existed then he would not have put forward his theory, and we would not be talking about them.


They exist as an idea much in the same way that beauty "exists".

In order to see exactly what a form is and how it differs from a material object, we need to look at the first two of the properties that characterize the forms. The forms are transcendent. This means that they do not exist in space and time. A material object, a basketball, exists at a particular place at a particular time. A form, roundness, does not exist at any place or time...

And just because we can talk about something doesn't speak to the existance of what we are discussing. I can talk about a magical kangaroo that flies around via a rocket that fires out its asshole and hands out free cans tuna to all who ask but that doesn't make it real. Nor does it mean that I think it actually exists.
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#54904 - 05/22/11 04:55 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
So, you're telling me that Plato also wrote The Allegory of the Cave? Wow, your knowledge of philosophy (that is in no way rudimentary) astounds me.


Err 6, you might want to double-check your information. Hint: it's also called Plato's Cave.

D.

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#54906 - 05/22/11 05:04 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1638
Loc: Orlando, FL
@Hegesias

It really irks me to see profane materialists buying up limited edition occult hardbacks and trying to peddle them off at extortionate prices on auction sites. I honestly don't expect anything less, but I would much prefer it if they showed more respect to the authors and publishers.

I once attempted to produce my own personal, illustrated, nicely-formatted book version of several ONA documents due to the lack of decent print versions. I re-rendered all of the NAOS sigils in high-definition but stopped in the middle of 'fixing' the Greek and Latin in BBS when I realized I was simply making too many changes. I have facsimile printouts in a big binder with texts from other LHP groups, so I decided to just stick with the originals.

I am admittedly a rabid bibliophile. If I had the time and money I would render my own versions of every occult book I and get them all bound in obscenely decorative leather binding.

@mabon

By dividing 'science' and 'philosophy' you seem to belie a modern prejudice of what constitutes both. By 'science' you probably mean postmodern empiricism-- a 'science' proper is a systematic approach to knowledge. For instance, materialistic rationalism is a science. Hermeticism is also science. They are both scientific because they posit a method of obtaining objective knowledge, despite being radically different.

Furthermore, I recommend you study the ONA at face value before you try to dissect it, instead of attempting to compare it to other ideas as you go along.
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#54907 - 05/22/11 05:07 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Zophos Offline
member


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
SinisterMoon:

 Quote:
Your evidence for this opinion of yours is what precisely?

Admittedly, my conclusion is dependent on the presumed accuracy of mabon2010's representation of David Myatt, which was probably a mistake in itself. To whatever degree, however, that mabon's line of deduction is in fact similar to that of Myatt (whose articles on the subject strike me as an unoriginal pastiche of Heidegger, Critical Theory, and postmodernism liberally peppered with Greek terminology), both are totally unconvincing.



mabon2010:

 Quote:
Again, you fall into the trap of applying science to philosophy.

Oh no, not an application of science to philosophy! People might get the impression that the two were virtually synonymous throughout most of Western history! (The term "scientist" wasn't even invented as a separate designation until the mid-nineteenth century, and didn't fully eclipse the term "natural philosopher" until a relatively short time after that.)

Can you name any area of philosophy that has not been thoroughly permeated by the discoveries and methodology of science?


 Quote:
Philosophy goes beyond science because it has the freedom to take positions and ideas without any limitations that science must create to be valid.

Christian clergy hold the same position about theology. Indeed, your above statement reminds me greatly of the early medieval view that science could only serve as a "handmaiden of theology."

As Dan_Dread noted, "Philosophy, like science, must be rational and internally coherent, by definition." I would add as a corollary that any body of thought (and I use that word loosely) built upon claims which are totally unverifiable even in principle is a faith-based ideology, not a philosophy. Asserting that philosophy transcends all scientific investigation by fiat simply because it allows one to take positions without limitation (a falsehood, as already said) is asinine, and belies your impoverished understanding of the demands placed on anyone who expects to have his claims taken with less than a salt mine, let alone accepted by other thinking people.


 Quote:
Plato applied properties to Forms, one that they were unchanging, thus running against the idea of Heraclitus that all the Universe is changing.

A superfluous excerpt from Philosophy 101. What is your point?


 Quote:
You suppose Forms do not exist, but to Plato they did exist, and since this debate is about Plato's philosophy against that of another philosophy about the Forms, if they exist or do not exist is not relevant to the topic in hand.

I can do little better than to cite Dan_Dread once more: "Holy shit mabon, do you EVER know wtf you are talking about?"

This is the last time I will clarify: you explicitly took a position on Plato's Theory of Forms, moving your analysis from the purely comparative and historical domain to one requiring philosophical justification of your own claims—namely, that you "would say Heraclitus is correct" and that "[w]hat is seen in the world is a shadow of a Form, a particular." If you are unable or unwilling to provide this, don't (given your acumen and argumentative capacity thus far, silence might be worth considering), but don't expect anyone with a high standard of proof to take your ideas or claims seriously. Life is short, and people have better things to do than ponder the minutiae a pseudo-philosophy promulgated by someone who can't even formulate his thoughts or views coherently.


 Quote:
It is relevant to the discussion to consider that if a Particular of an object in the Universe is dependent upon its Form but is changing it must logically be influenced by the Form, thus the Form must be changing to cause the Particular to change, thus raising an issue of the validity of the property of a Form being a constant unchanging thing.

This portion alone shows that you have absolutely no grasp of Platonic philosophy. I am not a Platonist by any means, but philosophical and historical analysis require that their topic be correctly represented in points of fact. That you are oblivious to the ontological reasons for the immutability of the Forms, to mention only one crux of ignorance in your above conjecture, tells me yet again that you very simply have no idea what you're talking about. Read and learn.

Plato on Knowledge and Forms: Selected Essays

On Ideas: Aristotle's Criticism of Plato's Theory of Forms

Plato's Introduction of Forms



Dan_Dread:

 Quote:
Looks like philosophy can be added to the list of words mabon doesn't understand, right along with 'axiom', 'thinking' and 'introspection'

Agreed. His, like those of so many other would-be Magi, poobahs, "innovators," and spiritual gurus, is little more than a solitary language game in which evidential reasoning is displaced by a web of jargon whose meanings must first be tacitly accepted for the remainder to amount to anything more than sophomoric regurgitation and flimsy assertion.



Diavolo:

 Quote:
Err 6, you might want to double-check your information. Hint: it's also called Plato's Cave.

I think 6Satan6Archist6's remark was intended to deflate mabon's compulsive need to demonstrate his knowledge of basic philosophical concepts.


Z.
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#54908 - 05/22/11 05:19 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Diavolo]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I don't see what I need to double-check. The statement(s) you quoted of mine were sarcastic.
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#54909 - 05/22/11 05:22 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Morgan]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2435
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Wicked Wanda
Side note.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ORDER-NINE-ANGLES-Sa...=item255f5443a3

Seems that Aquino has been giving us valuable information in various posts for free.

Good grief! Those were just a few routine letters of no especial significance, at least not to me. The stuff I've spent some time on is all there on my webpage for free, of course.

I've repeatedly seen the same thing happen to old printed editions of my Church of Satan - up there on eBay for big bucks, when the most updated/extensive edition is once again free as an ebook.

 Originally Posted By: WW
it is just Stanton coping the original of LaVey's work.

Someone will doubtless pay his price.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#54911 - 05/22/11 05:49 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
I don't see what I need to double-check. The statement(s) you quoted of mine were sarcastic.


Oh sarcasm, that's a relief, I feared for a minute you were Mabonized.

D.

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#54913 - 05/22/11 06:04 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Diavolo]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
LMFAO! Not a chance in hell. If that ever happens, please, break my legs. ;\)
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#54916 - 05/22/11 06:15 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SinisterMoon]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2435
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
My appreciation to Sinister Moon for the detailed response concerning Myatt's use of "Nine Angles", but all it does is refer to some [undated] interest in nine "emanations" or "dimensions", both occultfuzzy terms which are clearly not the same thing as geometric angles. [As a sidebar, where do these "emanations"/dimensions" fit into the ONA's philosophy, e.g. as tools?]

The Nine Angles of the Church of Satan's Order of the Trapezoid were quite simple and straightforward: the Pentagram and the trapezoid conjoined. Anton discussed 9's significance in "The Unknown Known" of the Satanic Rituals, of course; and my "CNA" was written correspondingly. To my knowledge the "CNA" is the first time the term "Nine Angles" has appeared published in a magical context.

Anton's interest in angles per se came from two principal inspirations: Frank Belknap Long's The Hounds of Tindalos and William Mortensen's The Command to Look. Concerning the "CNA" I discussed the Nine Angles in my 1977 Nyctalops article (Appendix #74 of The Church of Satan), and later went into them in further detail in the Order of the Trapezoid's Runes:

 Originally Posted By: M.A.A.
COMMENTARY ON THE SEAL OF THE NINE ANGLES
- by Michael A. Aquino VI°, GME.Tr.

Generally speaking, some of these angles were taken from Pythagoras, who talked in terms of the significance of "numbers" rather than "angles." From my readings on the subject, I am convinced that Plato's discourses upon geometry and the significance of the various "Platonic solids" are essentially taken from Pythagoras' work, just as Pythagoras cam up with these notions following his lengthy stay in Egypt as a priesthood initiate. Fascinating how these "trails" just keep going backward until they vanish into the mists of pre-recorded history.

Bear in mind that the Ceremony of the Nine Angles was composed within the conceptual and iconographic limits of the Age of Satan. Nor was it intended to be an extensive, exhaustive "last word" on the angles or other included concepts; it was conceived as a nœtic vision and GBM expression. The following comments pertain to my ideas at that time and deliberately avoid embellishing the CNA with the more sophisticated concepts to which I have since been sensitized through my own work and the many brilliant examinations by other Setians.

FIRST ANGLE: Unity. The concept of the Universe as the totality of existence. Note that this does not admit to monotheism (except in the sense of Deism), because there is no room for conceptual distance between a God and a worshipper. The "laughing one" is Azathoth, who is "blind" and an "idiot" because in a condition of perfect unity there is naught else to see, not any knowledge of anything else possible. [Understand, of course, that I was taking H.P. Lovecraft's gods rather beyond his story-telling version of them. I don't in the least represent these as Lovecraft's own ideas, although I rather think that he would not have found fault with such elaborations.] In geometry a singularity identifies a locus only; there is no extension in any direction. Even the locus is "both there and not", since it has no dimensions at all. Hence there are an infinite number of loci, for example on a one-inch-long line: an interesting mathemagical paradox.

SECOND ANGLE: Duality. The profound and necessarily total change of unity into symmetry and polarity (and its symbolic representations: Horus and Set, Yang and Yin, etc.) The "orderer of the planes and angles" is Yog-Sothoth, who is, as the shaper of energy and matter, described as the author of Earth in its matter/energy/evolutionary configuration. Note that in pure duality there is no room for judgment between the two; there is only one or the other. In duality geometry creates a single extension (a line).

THIRD ANGLE: This is a very critical stage, because the existence of a third element introduces the notion of choice between the two opposites, either absolutely or relatively (Aristotelian system) or of choice to aspire or not to aspire to universal perfections (= Platonic/Pythagorean system). This is Nyarlathotep, otherwise Set, otherwise Lucifer/Satan, otherwise Prometheus, otherwise Thoth, who has created the power of perspective and the independent psyche of judgment. Here "knowledge" becomes possible. In geometry we now have the triangle, which is the most rigid of figures and also creates a two-dimensional plane. Note that, per the Book of Coming Forth by Night, the Horus/Set relationship actually fits into a threefold matrix rather than a twofold one. Set is an independent Intelligence with perspective upon the non-conscious objective universe on one hand and the chaos of the anti-objective universe (HarWer) on the other. The simple Horus/Set duality results from primitive Aristotelian thinking.

FOURTH ANGLE: The Ram of the Sun (Shub-Niggurath/Amon) is a manifestation of the "awakened" human psyche as energized by the Messenger. It is thus that "Satan" is known to humanity: a personalized reflection, as it were, of the results of the Messenger's Working. Satan's other name (Lucifer) is that of light and enlightenment, hence the "brilliance" of the Nine Angles. With the number four we have geometrically a three-dimensional displacement in space. Hence existence of matter and energy becomes possible. Hence time becomes possible, as the measurement of change in matter and energy.

FIFTH ANGLE: Humanity as the physical vehicle for the expression of the Satanic psyche as discussed in the Fourth Angle. Concept of the body as a necessary medium for the self-realization of the psyche, at least in its early stage. Translation of this into physical representation of supra-energy/matter Forms such as Set via the creation of images, building to temples, etc. A temple with five trihedrons is a four-faced pyramid (as Giza), the 4/5/9 seal is the seal of the Order of the Trapezoid: a marvel of integrated, interrelated 4/5/9 values. As noted elsewhere, even the addition of 4+5+9 = 18, which takes you into the "returning" qualities of 9 as expounded upon in Anton LaVey's "Unknown Known" in The Satanic Rituals. In geometry 5 creates the Pentagram, hence the Golden Section, hence the concept of perfection. this is why to Pythagoras (and his priestly mentors) 5 was the most sublime of numbers, and why the Pentagram was used as the seal of the Pythagorean Brotherhood.

SIXTH ANGLE: If Crowley considered his Tenth Æthyr to be accursed, then this would be the accursed (or should I say "hexed"!) of the Nine Angles. It is the hexagon and hexagram (also the seal of the Jews, authors and proponents of the world's most nihilistic and self-hating monotheism.) The hexagon corrupts the Golden Rectangle; it adds an angle and a line to the Pentagram and pentagon, thus destroying them. Six is symmetry obese and unnecessary (two and four are quite adequate for the principle). The seeds of the destruction of the hexagonal forms are carried within them, however, for they necessarily embrace two trapezoids (the four) and the pentagrams defined by those trapezoids (the five); hence 4+5 (the nine).

SEVENTH ANGLE: the destruction of the status of monotheism by the addition of a line/angle to the hex. The legacy of the First Beast of Revelation and his sevenfold Seal and Star of Babalon (A.'.A.'.). The forces of the Æon of Horus overcoming those of the Æon of Osiris. Yet the only thing that can be said of seven is that it is an effective destroyer of six. It has no creative properties of its own; it has neither the strength of symmetry nor the magical powers of its asymmetrical predecessors (1,3,5). Proponents of six-isms instinctively fear seven: They warn about such things as the seventh son of a seventh son, of the Seven Towers of Satan in Yezidi legend, of the Seventh Seal, of the Jewel of the Seven Stars. Seven is thus a harbinger of doom to six: a shadowing-forth of the Apocalypse to come. Geometrically and numerically, like the Æon of Horus, seven has an "identity crisis". Additions or multiplications or powers of seven yield all sorts of random values and relationships.

EIGHTH ANGLE: The temple containing the trihedral angles is a truncated pyramid: the power of the trapezoid perfectly manifest in a Golden Section-based three-dimensional structure. Thus its architects are the Masters of the Realm (the all-embracing term for the IV*+ in the original Church of Satan): the Sorcerers who beam from their towers the Powers of Darkness to rebuild the world corrupted by six and shattered by the seven, and their seal is the Seal of the Order of the Trapezoid (seal of the Priesthood of the original Church of Satan).

NINTH ANGLE: the culmination of this dynamic process: the Black Flame in its perfection: the "will to power" of Nietzsche in a glory of desire: the extension of the Enlightened Will and Initiated Psyche throughout all dimensions of space, time, and thought: what in the Æon of Set would be Uttered as Xeper.

Since the Church of Satan & Temple of Set, there have been a great many appropriations of their terminology, and I would have to see something more than a tortured jamming of "Arabic emanations" into an Angled glass slipper to be convinced that Myatt wasn't just one more.

Does this keep me awake nights? Nope.
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#54917 - 05/22/11 06:32 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2435
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
LaVey doodled A LOT. He and I would sit in restaurants waiting for dinner to be served and doodle. We were at he McArthur Park restaurant in San Francisco one night with him, me, Tari and Cookie all doodling on our place settings, just having a good time. The manager came over when they delivered our food and asked if we would sign the doodles and if he could have them. We thought nothing of it, so we gave them to him.

Next time we came in, he had them framed and hanging on the wall. I dunno how long they stayed there. I haven't been back there since.

The MAP in SF is long-gone, but reappeared in Palo Alto in 1981. Don't know if your doodles made the trip too ...

 Quote:
The artwork of Dr. LaVey's that I was wondering about were his wonderful oil paintings that were hanging throughout the house. Some of them were quite bizarre and stunning. I'd hate to think they're just sitting in an attic somewhere.

You can see some of them in the plates of my Church of Satan, some in Burton Wolfe's The Black Pope, and some in Satanis on YouTube. If I'd had any idea that 1975 was going to happen, I would have made my amateur photographic tour of 6114 (originally done for the Grottos around the country) much more detailed, including direct shots of all those oils. I would also have chained Anton to the big organ in the RC and not let him loose until I got some recordings of him playing his really wonderful classical stuff - nothing at all like that rinky-dink synthesizer crap on the Barton-era records.]
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#54919 - 05/22/11 06:40 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
6Satan6Archist6
Okay, so we have established that Forms do exist to Plato, and that it would be rather silly to assume that Plato would put forward his Theory of Forms if he did not consider they existed. This would be as silly as Einstein putting forward his Theory or Relativity and then telling the world at the same time he did not believe in his theory.

You have made a reasonable position to say that using the scientific method we would be unable to pin down the Forms, which is where philosophy comes in, for philosophy goes the extra mile with ideas that science is unable to.

Forms exist indeed outside of the material universe, which means they cannot be seen by our senses, and that was a drawback that Plato did note, and philosophers have been working on since.

As an idea Forms exist, since you have thought about them. Take your example of Time and Space, you made an assumption that Time and Space exists whilst you were rejecting Forms. Think about it when I say Time and Space do not exist "out there" but are mere human inventions existing only in our minds.


Edited by mabon2010 (05/22/11 06:43 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54922 - 05/22/11 07:08 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Zophos
Question: What is it like to be a bat?

Science would never be able to answer that question. Philosophy deals with questions like this, and shows the limits of how far any method can go. Nobody will ever be able to answer that question of what it is like to be a bat with any certainty unless they are a bat.

Of the comparison of Plato and Heraclitus over the question of if Forms change or do not I would like to see you do better than me. If you think you are better than me lets see you try.
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