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#54923 - 05/22/11 07:10 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: The Zebu]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
The only Ixaxaar books I am keeping are PanParadox and Gullveigarbok by Vexior. I'm after Liber Azerate in English. And then no more! Too much money, it's not practical for my income and as I end up reading ONA MS on pdf. the most, it's even more illogical to buy hardbacks like I do. Yes I like my collection, it feels foolish, I have a way about keeping my flat empty. I seem to dislike having things and don't like anything to accumulate.

I like what Bruce Lee's Tao says “Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless," I have a limited income and with the money I get from selling guess what I always buy with my money? More books. Just not ridiculously expensive ones anymore!
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#54927 - 05/22/11 07:47 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
. I would also have chained Anton to the big organ in the RC and not let him loose until I got some recordings of him playing his really wonderful classical stuff - nothing at all like that rinky-dink synthesizer crap on the Barton-era records.]


You know... it's remarkable. I spent night after night at the Black House, listening to the wonderful music he could just reel off from memory pouring out of the organ and keyboards and be mesmerized, thinking "this should be recorded." WHY DIDN'T I RECORD IT???? And some of his after work table-talk, when we were just sitting and chatting... and pictures. DAMN it... WHY DID I NOT TAKE MORE PICTURES FOR MYSELF? I did rolls of pics for him... just handed them over... never thought I might want copies... WHY?

Sorry... this has nothing to do with ONA shit... hell, who'll notice in the 20000 pages of the stuff over and over again anyway? It's like KUDZU.

But I know what you mean. It seemed there would always be time to do it. And time just has a way of slipping out and away from us. Carpe diem... hell, carpe secunda!
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#54937 - 05/22/11 11:01 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Hegesias]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
In regards to the "influences" of the ONA, even the most cursory glance at their system will show similarities with many different occult currents. The "Tree of Wyrd" and associated tarot paths, for instance, are patterned off of modern Qabalah. Their chants are derived from Gregorian hymns. The whole of NAOS simply screams "70's Chaos Magick", and the book's explanation of Aeonics might as well have been lifted from Liber Null.

Now some ONA initiates (I'm looking at you, SinisterMoon), might instinctively refute these claims, asserting the ideological purity of the Hebdomadry as an "Aural Tradition", and make some mentions of "acausal empathy"-- perhaps garnished with a quote from "The Septenary, Crowley, and The Origins of The ONA".

However, my intention is not to denigrate the ONA's esoteric integrity, but rather emphasize that it is not the symbolic/causal aspects that are important, but the method by which these aspects were synthesized by Long to produce an effective and frankly sinister manifestation of Satanism. Indeed, too many people confuse the origin of the symbols with the origin of the essential ideas that these symbols are intended to convey, which is the fundamental mistake that is responsible for most common misconceptions about the ONA.

I believe that the ONA is more influenced by their defiance of the CoS rather than any common origin. For instance, early editions of the Black Mass (such as those ascribed to the Temple of the Sun in the BBoS) include use of the Enochian Keys. I have a sneaking suspicion that Long may have deliberately excised this element from his final drafts to deliberately distance himself from LaVey and avoid accusations of derivativeness, regardless of whether or not the original context was influenced by the CoS. Again, just a suspicion.


Edited by The Zebu (05/22/11 11:02 PM)
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#54939 - 05/23/11 12:48 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Zophos]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Zophos
Admittedly, my conclusion is dependent on the presumed accuracy of mabon2010's representation of David Myatt, which was probably a mistake in itself. To whatever degree, however, that mabon's line of deduction is in fact similar to that of Myatt (whose articles on the subject strike me as an unoriginal pastiche of Heidegger, Critical Theory, and postmodernism liberally peppered with Greek terminology), both are totally unconvincing.

AFAIK Myatt has so far translated some of the fragments of Heraclitus, arguing that polemos is not the kampf of Heidegger. He also disagress with Heidegger about logos.

His central thesis relates to pathei mathos and the balance between arete and hubris, which he illustrates with examples from Aeschylus and Sophocles et al. Which brings him to empathy and the numinous. For Myatt, the numinous is what predisposes us not to commit hubris, with a knowing of the numinous often arising because of pathei mathos.

Now, just how is this "an unoriginal pastiche of Heidegger, Critical Theory, and postmodernism"? Where are pathei mathos, arete, hubris, empathy, and the numinous, in them?

As for Plato, Myatt is critical of him for reasons I admit I don't fully understand - quoting Plato and Diogenes Laërtius and then Heraclitus in Greek. But so far as I can tell, it's a criticism based more on philology than on some philosophical discussion of some 'theory of forms'.

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#54941 - 05/23/11 01:13 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida

 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
all it does is refer to some [undated] interest in nine "emanations" or "dimensions", both occultfuzzy terms which are clearly not the same thing as geometric angles.


Quite so - they're not geometric angles. It's good to have this cleared up at least.

As for them being "occultfuzzy terms" (a term which BTW I like!) I think I'll have to disagree with you.

The use of the term derives, like I think I mentioned, from Myatt's work which he called cliology, first circulated in the early 1970's, and his 'star game' which he developed when in jail in '72-73. The nine are the nine basic alchemical changes from the three fundamental alchemical substances, sulphur, mercury, salt - those familiar with Myatt's Star Game will know how the pieces change and move, as representations of the nexion that is 'the tree of wyrd' with its seven spheres/boards. In one of his early works (70's vintage) he links these nine with Jungian personality types as well.

So maybe they should be called 'occultmindfuck' terms as they lead to a complex labyrinth where the seeker comes across alchemy (Arabic and western), Jung, sorcery, mathematical reps of causal space-time, nexions, and last but not least the acausal.

As for being 'undated' - Myatt constructed a large version of his star game while in a monastery (76-78), where it languished for years in a corner of the carpentry workshop. Heck, it might even still be there! I've also been told a copy of one of his cliology works, distributed in the 70's, is in the British Library.

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#54942 - 05/23/11 01:43 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: The Zebu]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
my intention is not to denigrate the ONA's esoteric integrity, but rather emphasize that it is not the symbolic/causal aspects that are important, but the method by which these aspects were synthesized by Long to produce an effective and frankly sinister manifestation of Satanism. Indeed, too many people confuse the origin of the symbols with the origin of the essential ideas that these symbols are intended to convey, which is the fundamental mistake that is responsible for most common misconceptions about the ONA.

I agree, and that's the essence, really, which is why I quote it first. The ONA system works - especially the grade rituals and the practical sinister stuff - in producing/guiding sinister individuals who're very different from Setians, CoS members, and so on.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Now some ONA initiates (I'm looking at you, SinisterMoon), might instinctively refute these claims,

But yes, some of us sometimes take exception to claims that the ONA ripped off Crowley, Lovecraft, qabalah blah blah - and all of which claims have been dealt with elsewhere over the decades, and in some ONA texts, so I won't go into details here.

Anyone interested - and that's not many, if any - can find these ONA texts and make their own mind up. Which at the end of the day is what matters - that they find out for themselves and make their own judgement.

Personally, I've always found the *why* more interesting - *why* some seek to or may need to denigrate the ONA by claiming it's unoriginal; *why* many/most of those making such claims never present any evidence for their opinion; and *why* they have come to regard such stuff as the qabalah and Crowley and CoS as part of the western Occult tradition.

But I will say this - which I think you and some others understand - manufacturing a whole working effective esoteric mythos, however derived, is a work of magick in itself, and something few people have done, over the centuries. For often such a mythos is more effective and inspiring than what might be *the bland truth*.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
I believe that the ONA is more influenced by their defiance of the CoS rather than any common origin. For instance, early editions of the Black Mass (such as those ascribed to the Temple of the Sun in the BBoS) include use of the Enochian Keys. I have a sneaking suspicion that Long may have deliberately excised this element from his final drafts to deliberately distance himself from LaVey and avoid accusations of derivativeness, regardless of whether or not the original context was influenced by the CoS. Again, just a suspicion.

Could be - but using Enochian made it into Naos, which is still around and still a basic text for them as follows the traditional seven fold way.

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#54944 - 05/23/11 03:26 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Clarence Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 61
Mabon,

I don't believe anyone has mentioned it in this thread, but the British Library holds some ONA goodies for anyone interested.

A friend of a friend informs me that permission from the author may be necessary to reproduce some of these works if you happen to reside outside of the UK. Which begs the question: how exactly do you gain consent from a fictitious entity? Hint - be creative.

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#54949 - 05/23/11 07:18 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Clarence]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Clarence
That is interesting information. So if I looked under the names of Long or Myatt would I find this information in the British Library?

I am unsure if Mr Myatt reads these 600Club boards but I may think of tracking him down and speaking to him in person since I live in Britain.
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#54951 - 05/23/11 08:22 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
may think of tracking him down and speaking to him in person since I live in Britain.

Good luck! Or should that be - *May the Dark Force be with you* \:\)

Given Myatt's association (past or otherwise) with Jihadi Islam, his praise of the Taliban, his association with Hamas, his visits to Iran - not to mention his alleged influence on Copeland et al - you can bet he's under surveillance by the security services, of not only the UK but I guess by the CIA as well.

Not to mention he's rumored to go around with an armed bodyguard (who, so the story goes, is/are recruited from the AoB brotherhood).

Loathe as I am to mention Tubby Woodentop (aka Blackwood) - he tried to find Myatt a year or so back and even offered a US$ 10,000 reward for Myatt's whereabouts. There we no takers.



Edited by SinisterMoon (05/23/11 08:23 AM)

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#54952 - 05/23/11 08:39 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SinisterMoon]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ SinisterMoon
Yes, that "Dark Force" may be needed \:\)

It will be months before I do search for Myatt, if indeed I decide to do. At the moment I am just doing lots of reading. I move as fast as a snail at times.
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#54954 - 05/23/11 09:11 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SinisterMoon]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I apologise if I am appearing to assume the ONA is "merely" Chaos Magic but that's all it ever was to me, a concept to tap my own potential rather than a fixed system to "follow", because ones preference of paradigm and actions has no rules, the ONA being the most intense expression of sinister potential (I still preference the MLO but it's part of a path to self mastery). People seem to think they can find something darker than Chaos Magic whilst missing the point that Chaos Magic is a lawless concept to get you there, by discarding a concept which is about synthesis one is bound to be bound to a fixation.

In a similar way Myatt and Pete Carroll, although differently, have done a similar thing with the dark arts as what Bruce Lee did with the martial arts. Synthesised a formless concept, progressive for the unique individual. Just my conjecture.

The only downside I can see about Chaos Magic is that some may require an absolute belief rather than to be the artisan of a cold dark reality where nothing is stable. The ONA explains this by expressing that all outward causal forms are only that.

Myatt's involvement with extremism under any guise is just that, he's a bad ass and will use anything, he's a sophisticated psychopath who is beyond the experience of the majority of people and their mundane fixations.

Blackwood and those he champions are cowardly shit stirrers, who puts a price on somebodies head out of envy? Blackwood does, he covets Myatt's achievements, I know people like this. Not only does he threaten Myatt in a cowardly way but bribes with money over honour, this defines Blackwood as suitable for conclusion.
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#54957 - 05/23/11 09:42 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Hegesias]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
Out of curiosity...
Why did Blackwood want to pay money to have Myatt tracked down? What purpose did Blackwood wish to achieve even if he did track Myatt down?

Strategy...
Useful to business and politics, like Sun Tzu, the ONA offers to me some useful strategy.


Edited by mabon2010 (05/23/11 09:42 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling
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#54960 - 05/23/11 11:15 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
Reporters and such can find Myatt every now and then-- it's not like he's the Yeti or something (despite some facial resemblance)-- but don't expect him to be receptive. Mentioning the ONA directly will probably bring no fruit; he's been denying any involvement with them for decades regardless of the evidence presented, and probably won't change his tune.

And unless you're packing some academic credentials or something, I'm guessing you'll be needing one hell of an excuse in case the authorities decide to question why you're seeking out someone considered to be a terrorist ideologue.

----

I'm assuming Blackwood wanted to track Myatt down so he could have some sort of face-to-face confrontation, from which Blackwood would obviously emerge victorious because he is the true founder of the ONA, and Myatt would grovel before his feet weeping and wishing he were as awesome as Blackwood. He would then write a blog about it and everyone on the internet would proceed to agree with him and join his e-Church, and then SATAN'S DOOMSDAY ARMY WILL FINALLY BE COMPLETE!

...mmm, sorry, got carried away there.


Edited by The Zebu (05/23/11 11:21 AM)
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#54962 - 05/23/11 11:23 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
Strategy...
Useful to business and politics, like Sun Tzu, the ONA offers to me some useful strategy.


Apparently you did skip the step "study" too this time. Or did you really read and understood all which is provided already?

D.

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#54966 - 05/23/11 12:14 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: The Zebu]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
I'm assuming Blackwood wanted to track Myatt down so he could have some sort of face-to-face confrontation

Here's what Woodentop wrote on his blog last year - tho' I won't pollute this forum with a link to his gibberish, so if anyone wants it, PM me for it or for a screenshot.

 Quote:
Woodentop wrote: "The Temples of Satan ups it’s ante to 10k for information leading to the whereabouts of Myatt in the United States or Great Britain, after verification of addresses by Temples of Satan members in Great Britain they found the letter Blackwood purchased to be a address used by a person knowing Myatt and not his personal address, after a visit by a Temples of Satan Reverend his location was discovered and we will be providing photographs of the apartment complex and of course photographs of the recently purchased letter from Myatt and perhaps a actual address, so those inclined to visit him can visit him or even perhaps better."


At the time he was crowing about some Myatt letter he said he gotten and was going to publish but never has. No surprise there then. He also was ranting about Myatt as terrorist and as enemy of America and enemy of every patriotic citizen or some BS like that.

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