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#54968 - 05/23/11 12:52 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SinisterMoon]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Diavolo
"Study" is the same as "reading" to me, the process is in motion and will take many months. I see the potential of ONA ideas being applied to business and political situations.

KNOWLEDGE... UNDERSTANDING... ACTION : thats the stage by stage process for me.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54970 - 05/23/11 01:46 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Zophos Offline
member


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 115
Loc: U.S.A.
mabon2010:

 Quote:
You have made a reasonable position to say that using the scientific method we would be unable to pin down the Forms, which is where philosophy comes in, for philosophy goes the extra mile with ideas that science is unable to.

Bare assertion fallacy. You have neither countered my objections nor defended your own position.


 Quote:
Forms exist indeed outside of the material universe...

Your claim is syntactically meaningless on two accounts.

(1.) A non-spatial, atemporal entity by definition cannot exist anywhere.

(2.) To say that an entity exists "outside" the universe may be akin to saying that an entity exists five minutes before the beginning of time: the latter word ceases to have any meaning when ensconced in a frame of reference that logically precludes it. I say that this may be the case because we don't yet know whether or not there are other universes. (Interestingly, if a definitive answer to that question ever appears, it will be science, not philosophy, which provides it.) If Forms exist, however, your position would seem to entail that they exist outside of all physical universes, making your claim susceptible to both of my objections regardless.


 Quote:
...which means they cannot be seen by our senses, and that was a drawback that Plato did note, and philosophers have been working on since.

Notably, professional academic philosophers overwhelmingly reject Plato's Theory of Forms. Isn't that interesting?


 Quote:
As an idea Forms exist, since you have thought about them.

Are you seriously attempting to conflate the mind's ability to conceive a worldview with the facticity of that worldview?

As an idea the phlogiston theory of combustion exists, but that doesn't make it a factual description of reality.


 Quote:
Take your example of Time and Space, you made an assumption that Time and Space exists whilst you were rejecting Forms. Think about it when I say Time and Space do not exist "out there" but are mere human inventions existing only in our minds.

Astounding! Do you realize that you could initiate the Copernican turn in Western thought by revealing the philosophical implications of this idea?

Unfortunately someone just beat you to the punch—by 230 years.


 Quote:
Question: What is it like to be a bat?

Science would never be able to answer that question. Philosophy deals with questions like this, and shows the limits of how far any method can go. Nobody will ever be able to answer that question of what it is like to be a bat with any certainty unless they are a bat.

One of my degrees is in Philosophy; I know what it is and isn't, you condescending prick.

The logical errors and layers of unjustified assumption in your division are sufficiently numerous that I flatly refuse to address them all. As if you hadn't shown yourself to be pompous and laughable enough already, you now bring forward a famous tagline from Thomas Nagel under the delusion that an appeal to subjectivity as such will save your pathetic ideology. Not so.


 Quote:
Of the comparison of Plato and Heraclitus over the question of if Forms change or do not I would like to see you do better than me. If you think you are better than me lets see you try.

Quite frankly, there is nothing for me to do; my posts have already elucidated far more concerning Greek philosophy than yours have.

As a case in point, consider the simple fact that you have again restated a false claim concerning Heraclitus (namely, that he believed in changing Forms), despite being roundly criticized and refuted by yours truly. Even you acknowledged in a prior post that the Theory of Forms began with Plato. How, then, could Heraclitus have postulated that Forms change if he didn't accept their existence? If you can't speak with logical consistency on something that basic and simple, I certainly have no reason to believe that you are prepared for more advanced philosophical debate.

_____________________________


This is my last response to you. I among others have posed counter-arguments to your claims, and none have been met with even meagerly satisfying rebuttal. You have been amply shown to lack the capacity for sustained critical thought, and I have the utmost confidence that 600 Club members who read this thread will easily recognize your ineptitude in attempting to debate cogently. You have nothing of importance to say, and I am content in knowing that you will continue to be dismissed here until you grow out of your need to ignore major objections and parrot banal trivia from Western philosophy. In my life I have communicated with over two dozen other self-proclaimed scholarchs of would-be pioneering philosophical movements, and not one among them has remotely impressed me. Welcome to my list.


Z.
_________________________
Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.

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#54971 - 05/23/11 02:01 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
@ Diavolo
"Study" is the same as "reading" to me, the process is in motion and will take many months. I see the potential of ONA ideas being applied to business and political situations.

KNOWLEDGE... UNDERSTANDING... ACTION : thats the stage by stage process for me.


Ok then, please tell me how you're going to apply ONA ideas to your business and political situations. Some examples might not be bad either should it not be completely clear to me. I'm slow at times you know.

D.

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#54972 - 05/23/11 02:12 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Zophos]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Zophos
I would like to thank you for your input, which has been enlightening and which I continue to reflect upon.

I am aware that you have produced some high calibre input and I have not done your input justice with my own response. I would point out that my original intention of this topic was to solicit information on sources on ONA that I could then study, it was not my intention to get into deep arguments on Plato which is why I have been less enthusiastic in my manner of response.

I would just make two observations:

1. Heraclitus took the position the whole of the Universe was changing. Plato later introduced his Theory of Forms and the idea Forms were unchanging. By induction one would consider that as a Form would be seen as part of the Universe, and the Form was unchanging, that it would conflict with the idea that the Universe was changing as per Heraclitus. It was I who put Heraclitus and Plato against each other, even if they did not share an idea of Forms, because I can, and I gain gnosis from these what-if games.

2. The Theory of Forms is not discredited, it is a concept that still is out there to be discussed, as we have done now. CS Lewis writer of the Narnia Books used the Theory of Forms for his basis of the Shadowlands, and the Matrix films were also influenced by the Theory of Forms. This theory, even if it is no longer shared by many remains in play, and it has a supporter in me. Why I support the Theory of Forms is a huge topic in itself and can be pursued another day, however, I wish to return this topic back to its original purpose : ONA sources.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54973 - 05/23/11 02:17 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Diavolo
As I am a student at the KNOWLEDGE stage, I would learn the Knowledge of the ONA, then I can take that Knowledge as the foundation in which to build understanding from in how to apply it to politics and business. I merely see a potential from the scraps of knowledge that I have gathered from my many interactions from ONA influenced people, like yourself, for its application to those areas.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54974 - 05/23/11 02:49 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I've READ about airplanes and I have seen the math on thrust and drag coefficients, so I can take that knowledge as the foundation to build understanding on how to apply it to flight and business.

MABONAIR... you might not get there, but I'll write like I know how to fly this plane.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#54975 - 05/23/11 03:18 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Jake999]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
I've READ about airplanes and I have seen the math on thrust and drag coefficients, so I can take that knowledge as the foundation to build understanding on how to apply it to flight and business.

MABONAIR... you might not get there, but I'll write like I know how to fly this plane.


I don't think one could write something more appropriate than this in the context of discussing why all of Mabon's reading will amount to nothing in the context of the ONA. It is by the very definition, a path of doing. The meaning of the manuscripts will simply escape those that don't work through the philosophy through direct action.

After all Myatt wrote the shit while actively engaged in many of the activities he 'philosophized', from violence, to insight roles, to subversion to Satanism (under his various 'pseudo-names'). They are writings born of a man engaging in practical deeds and his other associates, also engaged, in practical deeds. Without the practical experience to go with it, it's just words on a page. Like most LHP materials. Or to put it in a different context, it's like trying to truly grasp Musashi's Book of Five Rings, when never having studied a martial art (particularly a sword art) or been in a fight which had the potential to be fatal. Sure the words may bounce around in your head, but without that direct experience you'll never truly get them because they are born of, and written for a mindset that can only be acquired by direct experience. Those that hate 'doing' (like Mabon) almost always feel threatened by such things because one can't just sit in their house and declare themselves an expert without enormous sacrifice and actual attainment.

MF.


Edited by MindFux (05/23/11 03:19 PM)
Edit Reason: clarification

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#54977 - 05/23/11 03:37 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: MindFux]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: MindFux
The ONA...is by the very definition, a path of doing. The meaning of the manuscripts will simply escape those that don't work through the philosophy through direct action.

After all Myatt wrote the shit while actively engaged in many of the activities he 'philosophized', from violence, to insight roles, to subversion to Satanism (under his various 'pseudo-names'). They are writings born of a man engaging in practical deeds and his other associates, also engaged, in practical deeds. Without the practical experience to go with it, it's just words on a page. Like most LHP materials.

Well said, and spot on! Expresses the essence of this ONA matter, and of Myatt also BTW.

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#54978 - 05/23/11 03:41 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
See Mabon, this is why I said: first study, then (try to) understand and after that: conclusions. If my memory serves me well you asked where to find ONA information some time ago, like, hmm let me think... yesterday and today you not only talk about trying to meet with Myatt in the future but you're already sure you're going to implement the ONA “ideas” is your business and political plans. The works of ONA is vast and I'm quite a fast reader but I wouldn't be able to read the important parts in one day. Not even if that day had 72 hours. Let's not even talk about the time needed to understand. And this of course leads to the usual yadayadayada inevitable when you feed your brain on scraps of knowledge.

You have to understand that feeding your brain scraps of knowledge is like stuffing yourself with beans, both lead to nothing but farting.

As pointed out; ONA is about practice; acting, but not quite the same as you are doing.

D.

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#54981 - 05/23/11 04:38 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
Thanks everyone for sources and insights.

I note ONA is about Doing, though that is (to me) the third and final stage of the process KNOWLEDGE ... UNDERSTANDING ... ACTION.

I will read and I will apply to action.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54986 - 05/23/11 06:30 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Clarence Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 61
 Quote:
So if I looked under the names of Long or Myatt would I find this information in the British Library?


There is nothing under David W Myatt. Anton Long, Cristos Beest, Conrad Robury and Stephen Brown have all made submissions. You might try a generic search for "Order of Nine Angles" or "Satanism". I'd do a specific search for both Long And Beest, though.

I doubt the man personally goes online. However, it is possible to make indirect contact. Best of luck with that.

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#55008 - 05/24/11 03:22 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
creativevalue Offline
banned
pledge


Registered: 04/14/10
Posts: 93
I am sending you an email privately. Are you really serious about your research of ONA? Several years ago MLT merged with some of the Australian branches of ONA. We hold in the MLT archives the Luciferian hymns of ONA and also an original copy of Anytown by Christos Beast. I was contacted maybe a year ago by S. Mah. (name kept private) for a copy of Anytown, as Christos Beast had lost his original. We must have had a version of the original on file for them to ask.

I want to give you copies, as dispersing them among the interested is the best way to preserve the recordings. I am willing to answer other questions you may have.



Edited by creativevalue (05/24/11 03:35 AM)

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#55010 - 05/24/11 04:29 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: creativevalue]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Clarence and creativevalue
Thanks for this further information.

I will e-mail you creativevalue.

I shall at the next opportunity I get to be at the British Library track down the ONA resources (if any exist there).
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#55023 - 05/24/11 01:34 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Jake999]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
I've READ about airplanes and I have seen the math on thrust and drag coefficients, so I can take that knowledge as the foundation to build understanding on how to apply it to flight and business.

MABONAIR... you might not get there, but I'll write like I know how to fly this plane.

A plane? You give him too much credit. I was thinking more along the lines of a hot air balloon. "99 Luftballons auf ihrem Weg zum Horizont..."

Mabon, for someone who is a proponent of the nanny state which is currently in place in your country, banning access to social networking sites "just like China", I think your true beliefs--that of an extreme liberal--are at complete odds with the fantasy of what you'd LIKE your beliefs to be.. You can "research" and "study" all you'd like, but it's as futile as Prince Charles trying to place himself in the shoes of an average person. He does lots of charity work (you do lots of research), but at the end of the day he still views the world with the myopic lens of a privileged person and you will never be able to reconcile your personal philosophy with that of a hard-core one like ONA espouses.
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Nothing is sacred.

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#55025 - 05/24/11 02:18 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Nemesis]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Nemesis
Thank you for your input and you may be right. ONA is a puzzle to me and I would study their path just to satisfy my curiosity. ONA has crossed my path too many times and continues to do so, and it encourages me to learn how this enigma ticks.
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Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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