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#55026 - 05/24/11 02:55 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Nemesis]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Maybe what Mabon presents is skewed by an inability to intellectually portray his personal experience to more than articulate people? The limits of communicable presentation being unable to live up to the will that created it?

Maybe Mabon is not what you and I think he is at all? Maybe some of us cannot even come close to portraying what we are about through the limited media of words? Especially in the face of an elitist partisan allegiance effect.

Maybe Mabon is synthesising an understanding through criticism, after all have we ever observed him to be rude and unappreciative after others have been critical of his expressions? Quite opposite to my malfeasant arguments for the progress of nihilist dialectic, toward anyone who would touch my views. "Destroy to rebuild" is something Satanists go about differently it seems. Some of us appear to be predominantly, our own critic and commentator, whilst others are more receptive to external input.

This brings to mind something of a rather difficult nature to comprehend. One can appear not as intended when trying hard to express ones views through presentable articulation, especially if one is a man of few words in real life. I'm sure Mabon is much more down to earth and easier to grasp in person, like we all are, the same cannot be said about a pretentiously modest portrayal of imperfection whilst professing perfection in subtext.

Am I incorrect in assuming that Mabon may change his mind and ideas more frequently than his expressions on the forum would disclose? Am I incorrect in assuming the Satanic maxim is always the ideal for all of us and that pragmatism in real life is not necessarily the product of ones online appearance but that in testing ones ideas and especially having them rebuked serves to reduce what is unnecessary.

To the point raised by Nemesis about Mabon's personal philosophy being unable to live up to the ONA, I agree, as Satan cannot be intellectualised— the verb of the beast is not the compartmentalised formalisations of man, Satan may be dimly intellectualised but always inexplicably felt for which ones expressions can never live up to the inspiration that creates them, it is this affirmation of a lacking that causes the Satanist to always strive to an ever elusive maxim—

It is my affirmation that the blackest of propensity is unlikely to show itself as anything but the brightest stratagem.

Regarding Mabon's and everyone else's appearances here, I would think there is much more than meets the eye.
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#55027 - 05/24/11 03:03 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
creativevalue Offline
banned
pledge


Registered: 04/14/10
Posts: 93
I will be waiting to hear from you. I check my mail every couple of days. I have helped other researchers/writers of Satanism in the past.

Nemesis has a good point. If you are good at research you must make certain you get paid/credit for your work. There are people who look for intelligent researchers to live off of, steal their work, and take credit and payment, leaving the researcher with nothing.

To mention, I am on my way to San Francisco. I was invited to an invitation only Memorial Ceremony for over 400 unclaimed children who died in the Jonestown deaths. My research is free, but I am allowed to place the position and publications for the California State University on my CV.

Protect your work, and I will be waiting for you.

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#55028 - 05/24/11 03:15 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Hegesias]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The problem with Mabon is that he is directly trying to run a marathon but his brain just can't keep up with his desire.

It's a problem many young suffer but it doesn't improve when each time it is suggested one should slowly work towards such a distance and often take a rest to recuperate, the only response are excuses. When too many people criticize you, you are either doing something right or something very very wrong.

He just does not want to see he doesn't have the endurance nor experience to run such a distance and in that, will never reach the finish.

The reactions he gets here are to be expected and maybe one day when his brain finally outruns his desire, he'll truly understand the value of these.

D.

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#55565 - 06/07/11 10:36 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Zophos]
Greg Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 25
Loc: France, Paris
For a global view on the subject, The Sinister Tradition, Jacob C. Senholt, University of Aarhus (thesis 2008)
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#55587 - 06/08/11 02:47 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Greg]
SinisterMoon Offline
member


Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: Greg
For a global view on the subject, The Sinister Tradition, Jacob C. Senholt, University of Aarhus (thesis 2008)

There's an updated version of it, dated 2009 CE - but even that is way out of date now, given all the stuff that AL has written and published since Senholt began his research wayback in 2007 CE.

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#61260 - 11/08/11 11:34 AM ONA Advanced Star Game for Sale [Re: mabon2010]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
For Sale: One Authentic ONA Star Game. Mint Condition.

* 7 x 22x52cm vibrantly coloured and titled starboards with all the advanced levels and the squares initialled with co-oordinates for using the star game over distance - printed professionally on thick game cardboard and laminated for protection. (Laid out side-by-side the boards measure more than 1.5 metres enabling a superior and commanding Set to occupy an altar or permanent location with greatly improved visuals and presence, adding to the atmosphere and enjoyability.

* 100 x 2cm White [Wooden] Cubes, 100 x 2cm Black [Wooden] Cubes hand-painted with the nine alchemical sigils in RA's signature tri-sequence for optimum transfer during play. Cubes are laminated to protect them with a clear matte lacquer.
[Pieces total 90 cubes per player + 10 spares/exchanges.] [Additional Pieces/Replacements can be ordered]


* Revised Instructions [for the Exoteric Method] in a physical print-out and a free PDF of The Star Game: Advanced Essays plus personal instruction from THEM in learning the Game and the option to email Them to ask questions about the Game.

* 14 x Sphere Cards [7 for each player] beautifully detailed and listing relevant Septenary Tradition related attributes of the Spheres as a prelude to using the Kit in its Advanced Esoteric Method to map esoteric nodes from Individual to Aeonic signifiers.

* 14 x Rule Placards, [7 per player], beautifully detailed, convenient to place under Naos and/or Mira as reminders for those starting out which rules are in play and have been agreed to prior to commencing.

* Extremely limited edition / this will be one of only 3 ever offered publically by THEM to those wishing for a professional means to learn the dimensions of abstraction, abstract and aeonic magic, and become an Adept by furthering their path within the Septenary Way of the ONA.

* Those wishing for the original smaller but more portable 1cm version of the game should make enquiries to templeofthem@yahoo.com to request a re-release date, information or to place a pre-order.

Note: The Star Game is not for the faint-hearted, nor the dilettante - a great deal of effort has gone into creating this 2nd version of the Game for serious and dedicated Initiates to learn a rare and exceptionally powerful art of magic and perception. It is a black magical key to unlocking certain secrets of the mind; some of which secrets have been requisite to the success of the Temple of THEM and its conspirators. Purchasers of this set will also be contacted in the future when and if a spiral stand is created upon which these boards may sit - further approaching the original concept of the Game.

[Our Star Game Kit Mk.2 2011 price is $850 + $130 postage.]
Reader, please, do not waste our time - more than ever now, it is valuable. Payment is required in AUD, via paypal only, and to be made in full. Thank you.


ISS,
Templeofthem@yahoo.com

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#76890 - 06/05/13 10:08 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SinisterMoon]
Al_de_Baran Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 6
I am late to the party here, but, in case the querent is still seeking evidence of the ONA's original esoteric sources, here is the short answer: There isn't any.

As for the sources of the ONA's main borrowings from others, here they are, in brief:

1. The Nine Angles

(See also Jacob C. Senholt, The Sinister Tradition, p. 21, n. 29, “All esoteric explanations aside, it is worth mentioning that the concept of the nine angles appears for the first time in published sources by the Church of Satan and the Temple of Set […] and as such from a scholarly point of view this appears to be the probable source of inspiration to the ONA.” The alleged alternative source, a medieval Arabic alchemical manuscript entitled Al-Kitab al-Aflak, does not appear to exist outside the ONA’s admirably fertile imagination. This MS is conveniently uncatalogued and untranslated, it would seem.)

2. The Black Pilgrimage

3. Aeonics/”Galactic Imperium”/"Magianism"

a. Francis Parker Yockey

b. Oswald Spengler

c. Peter Carroll

4. The Dark Gods

a. H. P. Lovecraft

b. The IOT Mass of Chaos ("Atazoth"; clearly demonstrating the Lovecraftian lineage of the term)

5. The Crystal Tetrahedron (Lovecraft, again).

(Oh, and as a minor point, cliology .)

The ONA claims that they have "dealt with" the issue of these derivations. This is true enough, if evasion and misdirection count as "dealing". The ONA seems to think it sufficient merely to show that differences exist between the details of the original sources and the ONA’s re-working of them.

The problem for the ONA, however, is that no one claims that the group did not alter and transform its sources. The critics’ actual charges are as follows:

1. That, despite its assertions, the ONA has no provable original tradition of its own;

2. That the ONA derived the above-mentioned concepts, among others, from all-too-modern sources, and;

3. That the ONA is disingenuous in failing to admit to borrowing from these sources.

At least the critics’ relentless probing and prodding has led to some progress, since the ONA now admits, even in this forum, that theirs is essentially a modern, made-up tradition, created out of patchwork borrowings from contemporary sources. That is the claim which skeptical inquirers of the ONA have made, not that the ONA borrowed from others without making changes of their own, a fact that is utterly irrelevant to the main charge.

Given these facts, it is not so important whether, say, David Myatt founded the ONA, or which voice actor happened to play the part of “Anton Long” during a given week. What really matters is to maintain skeptical vigilance, and to deflate the pretensions of groups such as the ONA whenever they appear. Doing so is one sure way to demonstrate “a certain initiated knowledge and insight”, and is the best answer to those who wonder “why” anyone should bother with refuting the group’s claims.

To conclude: By all means, take whatever inspiration you wish from this group, or from others like it, but realize that you will likely do better to go the sources and make your own synthesis of them. When you do so, however, please don’t pretend to represent an ancient tradition of unique esoteric understanding. It is better to be remembered as a ludibrium than as a laughing-stock.




Edited by Al_de_Baran (06/05/13 10:29 PM)
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#77811 - 07/06/13 06:18 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Al_de_Baran]
Al_de_Baran Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 6
Addendum:

The latest from the ONA (besides apparently spitting out like a wad of stale chewing gum those silly teen females it was using for the past few years) is to demand tangible proof of deeds, such as a copy of one's Internal Adept journal, or a recording of one's esoteric chant (this should include, it would seem, the Sinister equivalent of a Lawrence Welk orchestra, or a Mormon Tabernacle Choir), or a photo of one's Star Game. Those who can't meet the demand are treated with appropriate disdain.

So, let's turn the tables. To whoever happens to be playing the part of Anton Long this week:

Please provide a scan of a photocopy of the Arabic manuscript that Senholt is supposed to be "unaware of", the one that proves the provenance of the "Nine Angles" concept. Failure to do so will lead to the same inferences about the ONA that it makes about the so-called prétendus.
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#77812 - 07/06/13 06:46 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Al_de_Baran]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6658
Loc: Virginia
Oh dear. Caught in the ONA meme, eh? I understand, Resistance is Futile. I get it, no really... I do. If you still don't know what ONA actually is, I'd say you've just taken two steps back.

 Quote:
The latest from the ONA (besides apparently spitting out like a wad of stale chewing gum those silly teen females it was using for the past few years)...


It? So you recognize its organic sentience then? If not, then I wonder what you think you are doing here. *cough* does a bit of channeling, *sighs* ...Monkeys.
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#77816 - 07/06/13 09:44 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: SIN3]
Al_de_Baran Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 6
If anyone would like to offer a serious, intelligent reply to my query above, I'd be delighted to read it, and especially to see a photocopy of that (almost certainly non-existent) Arabic manuscript. Sauce for the goose, and all that....

By the way, I'd also love to see a reference to the pages of Picatrix Latinus that ostensibly refer to the nine angles. I took an admittedly cursory look through the Latin text, and did not see any. All the references I found using angul... as a root referred to astrology.

Of course, even pages of that work which actually reference the nine angles would prove nothing, other than perhaps a posteriori research ("Quick! We need some research to find pre-20th-Century references to the 'nine angles' concept, so we can have plausible deniability!"), but at least it would be interesting.

My sole interest in the ONA, by the way, lies in popping the balloon of a pretentious ludibrium. The dates between my posts here should indicate just where it lies in my order of interests and priorities.
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#77820 - 07/07/13 02:38 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Al_de_Baran]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3109
 Quote:
Please provide a scan of a photocopy of the Arabic manuscript that Senholt is supposed to be "unaware of", the one that proves the provenance of the "Nine Angles" concept. Failure to do so will lead to the same inferences about the ONA that it makes about the so-called prétendus.

Among the various manuscripts, blogs and older material it became clear that (genuine) prospects will be sought out on the condition they themselves can provide credentials of their praxis.

Before demanding I would advice you to show yours first. Perhaps you'll be getting a better catch and credibility.

Additional note: isn't it funny how this place is considered the e-bedrock of ONA to the extend great announcements and changes have to be made to make it known to the public? Sinister tradition, eat your heart out.
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#77859 - 07/08/13 08:20 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Dimitri]
Al_de_Baran Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 6
Unlike the ONA, I make no claims, and I already indicated that my sole interest in the group is to pop their bubble, if it can be popped (and, judging from the caliber of the replies so far, it seems that it can, and rather easily).

The ONA, by contrast, makes particular claims. So, let's have the evidence. Simple, no?

Or let's call the whole thing a ludibrium and leave it at that.

As I mentioned, this particular jape is of limited interest to me. I'll check back in a month or two to see all those references and scans.
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#77866 - 07/08/13 11:29 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Al_de_Baran]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Al_de_Baran

My sole interest in the ONA, by the way, lies in popping the balloon of a pretentious ludibrium. The dates between my posts here should indicate just where it lies in my order of interests and priorities.


Why you think you can pop that particular balloon here at 600 is what's confusing to me. We have no affiliation with the ONA, just a few members with a passing interest in it.

 Originally Posted By: Al_de_Baran
...and, judging from the caliber of the replies so far...

Speaking of pretentious...


Edited by Fnord (07/08/13 11:31 PM)
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#77874 - 07/09/13 02:09 AM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: Al_de_Baran]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3109
 Quote:
The ONA, by contrast, makes particular claims. So, let's have the evidence. Simple, no?

Those particular claims can be (dis)proven on the condition you're part of the group. A lot can be told about the order and even more fiction can be found (both in as outside).

The only question I ask is the reason "why" you want to pop that particular bubble? I can only guess that behind the pretentiousness a major butthurt will be the prime motivator. That, or you're just a troll.
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#80365 - 09/08/13 07:09 PM Re: ONA original and authentic sources required [Re: mabon2010]
Al_de_Baran Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 6
Checking back as promised. As I expected, there is nothing to see here, and of course no provision of sources or other factual support, as requested. So, here are just a few parting observations:

1. Fnord: The entire reference to "popping the balloon" is to the thread's subject; namely, the request for sources. I have seen here, as well as elsewhere, the ONA's false claims regarding its "tradition". So here seems as good a place as any to respond. The ONA, for all its macho posturing, seems afraid to allow comments and discussion on its "official" blog.

At any rate, Fnord is taking the "popping the balloon" phrase both too seriously and too literally. I really would be happy to see some actual evidence for what the ONA claims, and would gladly retract my statements, as necessary, if any evidence existed.

What Fnord calls "pretentious"--my evaluation of the responses I received--I call "factually accurate".

2. Dmitri: Ah, so one has to be a member to receive the Real Truth! I see... How convenient. In the meantime, though, the baseless claims are on the outside for all to see.

Trolling: Always a convenient sneer word when one cannot answer any other way. Hint: Trolls don't usually provide the sort of documentation I did in my on-topic reply to the person who began this thread, nor do they usually reply at such length.

"I can only guess that behind the pretentiousness a major butthurt will be the prime motivator"

Aww, how cute: It looks as if Fnord taught Dimitri a new word! For the rest, I see that the Freudian concept of projection is alive and well.

To mabon2010: Assuming you ever revisit this thread, I hope that my reply was of help to you.

Signing off now on this topic.


Edited by Al_de_Baran (09/08/13 07:21 PM)
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